Ranged Magicka Nightblade....underwhelming? (MageBlade)

FoJul

"Within this thread, I'd like to first start by stating that I've spent a lot of time in this game. I started the week of release (2014) . My primary playstyle is Ranged Magblade, specifically in PvP. Even after nerfs that have directly and indirectly effected this playstyle, I have continued to play it. I have tried many different combinations and the outcome remains the same.

With that being said, over the last 4 to 5 patches, my Magblade and this playstyle as a whole has fallen even further behind most of the other classes and playstyles that Nightblade has access to. You can even look back to as far as 2019 to see that there has been a shift in adjustments made to the class that favor Melee Nightblade. The ranged toolkit is outdated and quite simply not even worth the skill points when you compare it to its melee counterpart.

Focusing on PvP for a moment, if you are to play the ever popular "Hybrid Nightblade" build and its subtle varients, it is possible for your Merciless Resolve to hit 20k damage. In similar gear, using ranged weapons within the classes available toolkit, that is not happening. The build doesnt matter as the damage when using a ranged toolkit doesnt compare. If we look at the Cripple/Debilitate combined with swallow soul, the damage whether its pressure or burst just doesnt compare to the melee abilities. With the introduction of hybridization, melee nightblades, Stam, Mag, and hybrid are all using Merciless Resolve. Even the incentive to use Assassin's Will over Merciless is pretty non existent. Taking a look at supporting abilities for a moment. The nerf to the Fear Traps. Does it really make sense? The ability was rarely used and served as the only type of range sourced stun for the class. All of the ultimates for nightblade? Melee in its effective range. Is there even a point of saying constantly "Play how you want", but even on a class that has received as much attention as Nightblade has in the melee department, why ignore another side of the class which is the range? It really doesn't make sense.

The new set for Nightblade is an attention getter, however, I think Nightblade still needs a class balance as a whole. I honestly don't think the set will be enough. For PvP nor PvE.

Taking a look at PvE. Nightblade is still underpreforming there as well. Let's ask the simple question.

Is there even a need for Nightblade in higher end PvE content?

I took the time to ask a PvE veteran who has completed just about every trifecta in the game, has easily almost every achievement in the game, has played every class in every role, and has taken the time to see how far he can push the limits of such classes within a PvE environmnent and @MisterKarnos is quoted to say "There is not a single Nightbladce in the Top 100 Leaderboards" Continuing to quote him, he goes on to say "I would say there is Zero use. The Class just isnt being used."

The adjustment to destruction staves, also played a big part in the reduced damage on Ranged Magblade.In PvP and PvE, many people have said that destructions staves as a whole is underperforming compared to melee weapons. The adjustments weren't quite good enough for what was needed in the current state of the game. This is just another factor of why Range Magblade doesn't compare well to Melee Hybrid Nightblade. With Melee weapons you get a baked in extra weapon and spell damage. Depending on what melee weapon you use you get a bigger increase to pen/damage/crit damage. While staves have no crit damage multipliers or no numbers that are similar to these melee passives. Like stated in other places, destro staves are still underperforming.

I am well prepared to see comments from others on the forums who will say "Ranged Magblade is fine." "The new class set will fix your issue" "There's nothing wrong with the class" "We shouldn't even be talking about this when it comes to the class and we should be focusing on other things that are more important as it relates to the class", but the reality is that this is apart of the class and deserves as much attention as other areas do.

@ZOS_Kevin, if it is possible, can we get any kind of Dev Team feedback on the decisisons that have been made as it surrounds this playstyle?

Below are some threads that expand on the subject:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/477254/melee-vs-ranged-magblade
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402442/range-dps-mag-sorc-magblade-change-my-mind
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611579/another-massive-magblade-nerf
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/486544/any-plans-to-help-out-with-magblade-survivability
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638190/is-ranged-magblade-just-forgotten-im-genuinely-confused
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641162/ranged-vs-melee-magblade-does-range-even-exist

Bushido2513

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ycSgrR3ho

Hey not saying you shouldn't ask for what you want of course but this looks playable to me. I will admit right away that while I have plenty of pve experience I don't really care about it as much so I don't care to say much there.


Also play how you want was never a guarantee of balance but just that you could do what you want in the game in regards to build and playstyle with the available choices.

That being said it doesn't hurt to ask!

jtm1018

Nightblade, any kind, disappointing, always and forever. For the record, I love my nightblade it is my main first class, its just so........................

ForumBully

Some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ranged Magblade passed out of all knowledge.
I have a hazy memory of playing ranged magblade at one point in PvP...but it was so long ago.

FoJul

ForumBully wrote: »

Some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ranged Magblade passed out of all knowledge.
I have a hazy memory of playing ranged magblade at one point in PvP...but it was so long ago.

The crazy thing is, for the longest time. When you picked up Nightblade for the first time, people would recommend ranged builds with swallow soul. It used to be the best way to play nightblade for people not wanting to use cloak.

That is no longer the case, as with hybridization changes, it turned into 1 playstyle rules all. (Hybrid Blade).

It would be different if RangeBlade actually was useful. It don't have to be OP to be useful. It just has to be better than what is available in current state. I can care less about melee blade.

I'd literally rather uninstall.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ycSgrR3ho

Hey not saying you shouldn't ask for what you want of course but this looks playable to me. I will admit right away that while I have plenty of pve experience I don't really care about it as much so I don't care to say much there.


Also play how you want was never a guarantee of balance but just that you could do what you want in the game in regards to build and playstyle with the available choices.

That being said it doesn't hurt to ask!

I wouldn't say this is a good example of the class working. We all know what would happen if dude was a hybrid melee blade.

Vaqual

I am not sure what your expectations are. What is the definition of a non underwhelming magicka nightblade? Target has to die from LA weaving swallow soul? Build must be competitive on top tiers without using stamina abilities?

I am aware that outstanding the power in the NB kit not distributed evenly over all skills and rather reliant on the usage of skills that would not necessarily fit the "ranged magicka" -brand, but that is a problem that all NB builds suffer from that dare to leave out those skills. At the same time, ranged weapons have a drastically easier time building stacks for AW consistently (and from a safe distance) and leeching strikes uptime can be near perfect without movement speed investments or snare removal.

Staves and bows are in a decent spot, sets are contributing substantially to a builds power, to the point where classes can become a sidenote. Mathematically swallow soul isn't even bad. You can't expect a skill with heal component to do as much damage as a skill without. It is not OP, but I guess that is required to be considered "viable" these days.

Against real enemies, people who abuse every mechanic they can, you won't have a great time forgoing off-balance/incap and/or AW as kill """combo""". That is what this class is balanced around (sadly). If you think setting up oneshots is a lame and unengaging playstyle, I am with you. But NB should not be buffed as long as it holds that power. We do not need 2 DK classes, and it is already dangerously close.

emilyhyoyeon

As a start, I'd like to see swallow soul not be a projectile anymore and see where it is after that

xDeusEJRx

Justice for Ranged Blade. I love my ranged magblade, it was what made me fall in love with the class, but swallow soul and siphoning skills are pretty wack. I'll probably try out the new nightblade class set as it might make ranged blade unique, but it's not particularly great being a ranged magblade

FoJul

Vaqual wrote: »

I am not sure what your expectations are. What is the definition of a non underwhelming magicka nightblade? Target has to die from LA weaving swallow soul? Build must be competitive on top tiers without using stamina abilities?

I am aware that outstanding the power in the NB kit not distributed evenly over all skills and rather reliant on the usage of skills that would not necessarily fit the "ranged magicka" -brand, but that is a problem that all NB builds suffer from that dare to leave out those skills. At the same time, ranged weapons have a drastically easier time building stacks for AW consistently (and from a safe distance) and leeching strikes uptime can be near perfect without movement speed investments or snare removal.

Staves and bows are in a decent spot, sets are contributing substantially to a builds power, to the point where classes can become a sidenote. Mathematically swallow soul isn't even bad. You can't expect a skill with heal component to do as much damage as a skill without. It is not OP, but I guess that is required to be considered "viable" these days.

Against real enemies, people who abuse every mechanic they can, you won't have a great time forgoing off-balance/incap and/or AW as kill """combo""". That is what this class is balanced around (sadly). If you think setting up oneshots is a lame and unengaging playstyle, I am with you. But NB should not be buffed as long as it holds that power. We do not need 2 DK classes, and it is already dangerously close.

How about go and make a ranged magblade with swallow soul. Tell me how competitive it is. Don't compare range nightblade to DK ever again.

I understand that this and that causes NB to be op. But all the factors you use in making a hybrid/melee blade. Do the same exact thing to ranged and see what happens. You will see exactly the pain points. How can Melee be SO STRONG, and ranged be a slap in the face. It doesn't make sense.

Ok so what if swallow soul has a heal componet on it. It should still do damage. The only way to get it do damage is using an actual busted set. *Acuity* is the only way to get swallow soul above 4k damage. Unless your fighting a squishy.

Tell me how I can literally hit 12k concealed's , but average 2.7k swallow soul? Like what the actual yk what. Yeah i shouldnt ever see a 10k swallow soul, but be better than what its at now. I mean Rangeblade already suffers from lack of a useful ranged stun. Lack of ranged ultimate that can't just be blocked or dodged. The ranged execute is actually a joke.

Acuity is the only damage set that is able to make my swallow do anything. Guess what. Acuity is up for like a maximum of 8-10 seconds and the downtime is 20 seconds. That makes it, to where I literally have to ult combo within a time frame. Why play like this? It's so non practical. When a DK and other classes can slot all damage sets and heal out the back and also put you down within 20 seconds. Not to mention wardens and arcanist too.

It's not fair for people to come in here and say that "well swallow has a heal componet, it's gotta be bad" and then the heal be bad as well as the damage. All around the skill is terrible.

Vaqual

FoJul wrote: »

It's not fair for people to come in here and say that "well swallow has a heal componet, it's gotta be bad

There is no reason to be upset, I just wrote what I think and I don't think it was entirely unreasonable and it certainly isn't unfair to do so.

Also, I am not asking for it to be bad, just for the damage to be proportionate considering the other benefits the skill offers.

FoJul wrote: »

Yeah i shouldnt ever see a 10k swallow soul, but be better than what its at now.

Sure, it's fair to ask for that. If it stays within reason I would happy to see improvements, but personally I would not want that to come at the cost of the healing functionality. It would also be better to have the discussion based on base tooltip values, not anecdotal, build and target depended hits.

FoJul wrote: »

Don't compare range nightblade to DK ever again.

You are completely misconstruing what I said. I think it is consensus that NB is currently one of the best performing classes (in PvP). Any buff to any playstyle, however limited by personal preference that may be, can also have an impact on overall class performance, if it isn't approached with a provident and holistic view. I just wanted to advise that buffs to a class that is already performing above average should be made with caution. And I say this as someone who doesn't like the features around which Nightblade is balanced. The times where your main resource defined a subclass are over, and I can't say I am sad about that. I also said in other threads, that I would be in favour of dialing back NB burst potential to open up avenues for buffing more skills in the kit, but I got the feeling that is not a popular opinion here. And just buffs without balance would not be fair towards other classes, because then we just get what we have with the current DK (last combustion nerf was a great thing though).

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ycSgrR3ho

Hey not saying you shouldn't ask for what you want of course but this looks playable to me. I will admit right away that while I have plenty of pve experience I don't really care about it as much so I don't care to say much there.


Also play how you want was never a guarantee of balance but just that you could do what you want in the game in regards to build and playstyle with the available choices.

That being said it doesn't hurt to ask!

Rallying cry and war maiden fighting a no damage DK, a pver with 19k hp, and a 42k necromancer that did nothing but heavy attack.

I dont think this fight is a realistic example of what you will encounter in pvp and if anything, this interaction feels cherry picked for youtube views more than anything else.

IMO while the new class set is a massive band-aid, it goes to show the lack of ambition and willingness to touch the skills that the development team has had over the past year or so. Just more sets and more bad examples that dont reflect the reality of what happens when playing this game.

I mean it's literally realistic because it's a fight someone actually encountered. They can't all be bangers with the best of the best duking it out. I said exactly what I mean, it looks playable.

Everyone and their mom has had favorable and non favorable fights. This person in particular has multiple clips of these type of fights on their channel. Honestly unless someone is streaming you're not really going to see a lot of people post clips dying being they don't get views.

I admit I've seen clips that showed some weakness in the playstyle as well but if someone can do it and succeed in a 1v3 then it can work on some level.

The rest comes down to scenarios and personal satisfaction which is really hard to nail down usually.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ycSgrR3ho

Hey not saying you shouldn't ask for what you want of course but this looks playable to me. I will admit right away that while I have plenty of pve experience I don't really care about it as much so I don't care to say much there.


Also play how you want was never a guarantee of balance but just that you could do what you want in the game in regards to build and playstyle with the available choices.

That being said it doesn't hurt to ask!

I wouldn't say this is a good example of the class working. We all know what would happen if dude was a hybrid melee blade.

Works about as well as any other class that isn't one of the chosen few I'd say. Hybrid melee NB is hardly the best balancing stick.

In other words could it be stronger on the level of melee NB? Sure. Is that good for the game as it stands? Nope

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

If I ask 10 of my friends to take off their armor and light attack at me while I parse them, record it, and upload it, will that count as an actual example of how op a class can be just because it's a fight I "encountered"?

This isn't accurate of the example I posted that we know of because as I said that's not the only clip and it's not as if you can say well all the clips had the same people.

I've stated this before and it's a fairly simple thing that can't be denied. In 1vx your opponents have to be worse than you. That's it, that's mostly the only way that works. If I fight 3 players as good as myself I'm either barely escaping or dying. I've killed two players at once that were as good or better than me and it really just came down to all my buffs lining up, some lag on their part, and luck really.

So if I see someone pull this off in multiple different clips I give them some credit even if credit has to be given to correct target acquisition. And that's the point. I said it looks like it works, not it looks like it can take on any and every opponent.

Dekrypted wrote: »

What I don't understand with the comments you've provided in response to mine is that I actually wasted time watching the video to break down and watch what was done, how the players fought wernt even geared for the environment they were in, took the time to recognize sets being used, monitor apm and everything just for you to flat out move the goal post again when provided with a real response that pokes holes in what you're saying.

This level of dishonesty about the reality of the lack of class balance that exists in the game is why feedback is ignored on the forums time and time again. Like let's just he honest and straight forward.
/quote]

Well you can't really poke holes in an opinion first off. I didn't say that anything there was a fact but just my belief that in my opinion it looked like the playstyle was working. You could gather all the data you want on the fight but you can't change the fact that the x happened with someone using that playstyle.

I don't really try to debate things like this because everyone will always have their bias about what makes up a good fight, good build, what's balanced, etc.

I personally don't believe in trying to critique someone's x unless they ask me to because what's really the point of knocking someone else's fun and work just for the hey of it? Did they have fun, did they kill more than they died? If so then hey enjoy the game.


I say all that to explain that I wasn't trying to say anything else other than hey I see it being done. I also admitted that I've seen clips where the damage was low and it took forever to get the kills.

Is it on par with melee nb? Of course not but as I said above that's also not a great measuring stick because it's not being applied to all of the other classes as well.

So I don't disagree that it could be buffed but at the same time the clip also shows it being played to some satisfaction and the class as it stands is already over buffed in one respect.

I'm just painting a full picture while also agreeing with the overall idea that this could be buffed.

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

Hey um.. you might need to edit your post for some formatting

Also if an opinion isn't based in reality and can be shown to be as such, that's still kind of the same thing.

Facts are facts so the words still and kind of don't really apply. It either is or isn't. If I say to you 2 + 2 = 5 that can be disproved. If I say my opinion is that the build is playable then there's nothing anyone can say because they aren't me and there's no way to prove or disprove what I'm saying isn't a fact because I've already said it's my opinion. You see the fight one way, I see it another, no real debate to be had there no matter how much you want to break it down.

Dekrypted wrote: »

I don't have alot of bias as you're trying to imply. You can even ask @FoJul, I've said a million and one times that I don't like Nightblade. I'm emphatically a Templar main, but here I am saying part of the class I don't like needs a buff.

I'm not trying to imply anything. You see the things the way you see them. I'm not really here to change minds. I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. I have already agreed that this can be buffed I am just saying that it's also about as playable as many of the classes that could also use arguably more buffs and that nb needs a balance pass anyway.

Dekrypted wrote: »

The video is a cherry picked fight against potatoes. The good thing about opinions versus facts is that the facts will always be true compared to an opinion. Most people when they upload 1vx clips are uploading clips against potatoes because they want the views. There are many content creators that will tell you they die alot before they javelin material to post

I can agree that this is a highlight clip and yes of course people only post what people want to see, doesn't mean it didn't happen like it shows in the video. And yes I can say those were players of a lesser caliber. Find me a 1vx where the person that's a lesser player beats multiple better players. You might find one or two but the majority are people that were just a little or a lot better than the people they beat. That's just how that thing works. I didn't say I ranked the playstyle or video as high in terms of damage, skill, etc, just that it worked out in favor of this person.

Dekrypted wrote: »

but I can guarantee this guy on this class/playstyle has died more than the others before getting the material.

More than others who? Quantify that please, more than every person who has ever played the game on all platforms? Is this person the best 1vx I've ever seen, not by a long shot. Is this person the worst I've ever seen, not by a long shot. We can only really talk about what's in the video. Making claims that can't be verified is really just more opinions which aren't really worth a debate.

Dekrypted wrote: »

Ranged magblade is not good. Having some cherry picked clip and saying "looks like it can still work" doesn't help anything. The cherry picked clip isn't the reality of the player experience while using the playstyle/archetype. Period.

It's this person's reality because we can see the video. I'm sure you can present video to the contrary because I've already seen it. That brings us back to square one where we can say some played it and it worked out and some played it and it didn't.

I don't disagree that it could be stronger, that's not an issue. I just said it was playable in relative comparison to classes that could use balance passes to come up to the level of DK or Melee NB

autocookies

deleted

Bushido2513

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I don't disagree that it could be stronger, that's not an issue.

Glad you agree. The additional comments only take away from you agreeing as you're just trying to have it both ways and are just causing more unconstructive back and fourth.

Well no that's just me being fair and saying I can see both sides of the argument. This isn't a binary situation where it either is or isn't. The can be interpreted as purely math, it's us the people that add the seemingly random factors. So when it comes to having an opinion about what I'm seeing or really any opinion, it's perfectly ok to see both sides having validity.

Can someone find a build to be playable while also deserving of a buff? Yes. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Here's an example, I play sorc a bit more than any class. Is sorc strong? Yes Is sorc in need of buffs? Yes. I'm not stating those as facts by the way but showing that I can hold both as being true in my opinion because I have x clips of sorc but I've also been up against a dk or nb and felt weaker in those moments.

So can this be buffed, sure. Is that the best thing for the game balance when considering the limited development resources, I don't think so. You are trying to talk about the one thing and I prefer to talk about more of the picture that I feel is relevant. Neither approach can be said to be generally better, they are just different ways of looking at the thing.

Dekrypted wrote: »

I can only speak from the 20,000+ hours of in-game time I have in the game interacting with players, playing every class, and spending a majority of that time in pvp across multiple platforms from Launch to today. I've been around through Zenimax's "balance" adjustments they've preformed over the years. Based on the feedback that has existed on the forums for quite some time, the players I've interacted with in game on multiple platforms, and my actual in-game experience in game playing these archetypes, it's easy to quantify given the addon's that can track classes encountered, how that shifts from patch to patch, and the obvious fact that everyone is running a DK, Warden, Proc Sorc, an Arcanist, or a Melee Nightblade. The archetype doesn't exist. @FoJul is arguably one of the most persistent people I've encountered when it comes to attempting to make the archetype work. The ones who were known for playing the class in such a way have long since quit the game due to the direction of "balance" or simply just stopped playing the class all together.

Why don't you take some time, hop in the game and experience it for yourself? The cherry picked clips fighting people who clearly lack proficiency within the space just is meaningless.

So basically since there isn't really such a thing as an ESO certification and neither of us works for ZOS to my knowledge, we are both people that have played the game extensively and have biased views based on our personal experience with the game. Neither of us meet the criteria to really be called any kind of expert or be more valid than the other. At the end of the day some will agree with you and some will agree with me and if you think the video doesn't demonstrate playability I respect that but I just added it to give perspective.

In playing this game for years I've had to realize that not everyone plays my way and I can't hold them to a standard that I make up in my head. For you maybe the video isn't a good demonstration and for that player it was adequate enough to post and be happy about. I think you should argue for the level you're going for but I don't see how either view could ever be more valid than the other.

Dekrypted wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not trying to imply anything. You see the things the way you see them. I'm not really here to change minds. I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. I have already agreed that this can be buffed I am just saying that it's also about as playable as many of the classes that could also use arguably more buffs and that nb needs a balance pass anyway.

Because in the bolded text, again for the umpteenth time you've agreed with me that the ability/archetype needs to be buffed, I'm done here. Thanks for agreeing with me and adding alot of extra words to diminish such an agreement.

You don't like cherry picked videos but you like cherry picked comments it seems . For what it's worth I can to some degree appreciate your desire to make this more a more binary exchange. I do that sometimes to but in this case I just don't see it as that simple when there are so many other things involved.

[snip] I do support people asking for what they want, it's certainly your right but if someone says I just want this and I don't care what if it does or doesn't help the environment surrounding it then I'm not really going to be able to get fully behind that.

[edited for baiting]

Alchimiste1

I miss old range nb. Feels like all the nb buffs are just made for the melee playstyle. Side note does anyone know if soul siphon gets buffed by the newly released nb set or if doesn't because it has a cast time it doesn't get buffed

Dojohoda

Yes, it is underwhelming.

xDeusEJRx

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I miss old range nb. Feels like all the nb buffs are just made for the melee playstyle. Side note does anyone know if soul siphon gets buffed by the newly released nb set or if doesn't because it has a cast time it doesn't get buffed

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Tyrant_Tim

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I miss old range nb. Feels like all the nb buffs are just made for the melee playstyle. Side note does anyone know if soul siphon gets buffed by the newly released nb set or if doesn't because it has a cast time it doesn't get buffed

From the testing I did, it appeared the ultimate was unchanged by the set. Why it might occur is that the set checks your ultimate count after you use your ability, so when you drained it, it had nothing to increase your ability with.

Bushido2513

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Did they need any bones thrown to them lol? Sorry that's a bit off topic but I just couldn't imagine what more you'd want on a brawler at the moment.

On topic I mean if anything I'd be ok with some of the power of melee being transitioned to ranged or the ranged being improved as melee was brought more in line, potato potato but you get the drift. I am interested to see what the testing of the new set looks like.

xDeusEJRx

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Did they need any bones thrown to them lol? Sorry that's a bit off topic but I just couldn't imagine what more you'd want on a brawler at the moment.

On topic I mean if anything I'd be ok with some of the power of melee being transitioned to ranged or the ranged being improved as melee was brought more in line, potato potato but you get the drift. I am interested to see what the testing of the new set looks like.

The brawler playstyle is not even liked by zos, hence why they initially wanted to gimp dark cloak(which is a skill which is not even used by many nightblades in this game to begin with), but settling on it's current morph to benefit PVE tanks.

Also the concealed changes were not made with PVP in mind, it was made solely to help PVE nightblades do better. ZoS don't care about pvp brawlers except pertaining to gank playstyles seeing as they've continually nerfed any stand up and fight playstyles not relying on cloak to PVP.

That's the point I was making. I never implied they "need" bones thrown to them, I was implying zos just straight up doesn't like the playstyle. They clearly either want nightblades to be gankers for PvP or PvE mains(like I said originally). PVP Brawlers just happened to get some scraps from PVE mains with concealed changes

It's clear when it comes to nightblade changes that ZOS favors PVE mains, PVP players are quite literally just enjoying scraps left from PVE'ers, not as if the scraps are bad or anything.

Bushido2513

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Did they need any bones thrown to them lol? Sorry that's a bit off topic but I just couldn't imagine what more you'd want on a brawler at the moment.

On topic I mean if anything I'd be ok with some of the power of melee being transitioned to ranged or the ranged being improved as melee was brought more in line, potato potato but you get the drift. I am interested to see what the testing of the new set looks like.

The brawler playstyle is not even liked by zos, hence why they initially wanted to gimp dark cloak(which is a skill which is not even used by many nightblades in this game to begin with), but settling on it's current morph to benefit PVE tanks.

Also the concealed changes were not made with PVP in mind, it was made solely to help PVE nightblades do better. ZoS don't care about pvp brawlers except pertaining to gank playstyles seeing as they've continually nerfed any stand up and fight playstyles not relying on cloak to PVP.

That's the point I was making. I never implied they "need" bones thrown to them, I was implying zos just straight up doesn't like the playstyle. They clearly either want nightblades to be gankers for PvP or PvE mains(like I said originally). PVP Brawlers just happened to get some scraps from PVE mains with concealed changes

It's clear when it comes to nightblade changes that ZOS favors PVE mains, PVP players are quite literally just enjoying scraps left from PVE'ers, not as if the scraps are bad or anything.

I would have to say that I also don't think they care about brawlers and that yes brawlers just happen to work because of buffs for other reasons.

I honestly can't say I see a direction they want to go with nb but I can understand if you or anyone else sees a direction here. I just more see it as currently having a good overall toolkit and selection of recent buffs.

I guess I could say though that I think that cloak and crit strikes are encouraged as just being what nb does, that seems true.

Still, all that being said the brawlers I've encountered are usually fairly strong, though I also think I tend to run up against people that really like playing brawler and so as with any build, it just performs better because they are more used to it and enjoy playing it.

So I got curious and looked up Malcom's site to see what was currently available and found this to be pretty interesting for two reason, one of which really relates to the topic.

https://eso-pvp-builds.com/nightblade/

There are 6 builds for nb there. That's just interesting in showing the different ways including ganker and brawler that can be reliably built for nb.

The interesting thing though is that there is no ranged. I'm not saying this site is the be all end all of builds but if ranged was viable I'd expect it to show up here.

To my point though, there probably shouldn't be 6 good builds and styles when there isn't one for ranged. This is more so why I want to see the kit/power of nb be converted a bit to accommodate ranged vs just buffing ranged. Buffing ranged alone just adds another viable style for nb which is good but it seems like it already has a lot on its plate already no?

xDeusEJRx

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Did they need any bones thrown to them lol? Sorry that's a bit off topic but I just couldn't imagine what more you'd want on a brawler at the moment.

On topic I mean if anything I'd be ok with some of the power of melee being transitioned to ranged or the ranged being improved as melee was brought more in line, potato potato but you get the drift. I am interested to see what the testing of the new set looks like.

The brawler playstyle is not even liked by zos, hence why they initially wanted to gimp dark cloak(which is a skill which is not even used by many nightblades in this game to begin with), but settling on it's current morph to benefit PVE tanks.

Also the concealed changes were not made with PVP in mind, it was made solely to help PVE nightblades do better. ZoS don't care about pvp brawlers except pertaining to gank playstyles seeing as they've continually nerfed any stand up and fight playstyles not relying on cloak to PVP.

That's the point I was making. I never implied they "need" bones thrown to them, I was implying zos just straight up doesn't like the playstyle. They clearly either want nightblades to be gankers for PvP or PvE mains(like I said originally). PVP Brawlers just happened to get some scraps from PVE mains with concealed changes

It's clear when it comes to nightblade changes that ZOS favors PVE mains, PVP players are quite literally just enjoying scraps left from PVE'ers, not as if the scraps are bad or anything.

I would have to say that I also don't think they care about brawlers and that yes brawlers just happen to work because of buffs for other reasons.

I honestly can't say I see a direction they want to go with nb but I can understand if you or anyone else sees a direction here. I just more see it as currently having a good overall toolkit and selection of recent buffs.

I guess I could say though that I think that cloak and crit strikes are encouraged as just being what nb does, that seems true.

Still, all that being said the brawlers I've encountered are usually fairly strong, though I also think I tend to run up against people that really like playing brawler and so as with any build, it just performs better because they are more used to it and enjoy playing it.

So I got curious and looked up Malcom's site to see what was currently available and found this to be pretty interesting for two reason, one of which really relates to the topic.

https://eso-pvp-builds.com/nightblade/

There are 6 builds for nb there. That's just interesting in showing the different ways including ganker and brawler that can be reliably built for nb.

The interesting thing though is that there is no ranged. I'm not saying this site is the be all end all of builds but if ranged was viable I'd expect it to show up here.

To my point though, there probably shouldn't be 6 good builds and styles when there isn't one for ranged. This is more so why I want to see the kit/power of nb be converted a bit to accommodate ranged vs just buffing ranged. Buffing ranged alone just adds another viable style for nb which is good but it seems like it already has a lot on its plate already no?

Again I'm not implying otherwise. I've played every playstyle for Magic nightblade. Ranged magblade is my preferred way to play, it was the most recent build I've played. I think nightblade is strong and in a good place, albeit with ranged magblade performing pretty poorly and needing to run a lot of melee-ranged skills to compete.

I just personally think ZoS doesn't even like that "brawlers" exist for nightblade pvp. I think they only want anyone to be a gank/assassin playstyle and nothing but for pvp

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Correction, all the buffs are for melee gankers, we see how Zos likes to treat brawler players. The only bone they threw for brawlers is letting minor protection persist across bars with dark cloak, but ZOS seems to hate the brawler playstyle and only want people to play solely Invis ganker setups or pve setups

Did they need any bones thrown to them lol? Sorry that's a bit off topic but I just couldn't imagine what more you'd want on a brawler at the moment.

On topic I mean if anything I'd be ok with some of the power of melee being transitioned to ranged or the ranged being improved as melee was brought more in line, potato potato but you get the drift. I am interested to see what the testing of the new set looks like.

The brawler playstyle is not even liked by zos, hence why they initially wanted to gimp dark cloak(which is a skill which is not even used by many nightblades in this game to begin with), but settling on it's current morph to benefit PVE tanks.

Also the concealed changes were not made with PVP in mind, it was made solely to help PVE nightblades do better. ZoS don't care about pvp brawlers except pertaining to gank playstyles seeing as they've continually nerfed any stand up and fight playstyles not relying on cloak to PVP.

That's the point I was making. I never implied they "need" bones thrown to them, I was implying zos just straight up doesn't like the playstyle. They clearly either want nightblades to be gankers for PvP or PvE mains(like I said originally). PVP Brawlers just happened to get some scraps from PVE mains with concealed changes

It's clear when it comes to nightblade changes that ZOS favors PVE mains, PVP players are quite literally just enjoying scraps left from PVE'ers, not as if the scraps are bad or anything.

I would have to say that I also don't think they care about brawlers and that yes brawlers just happen to work because of buffs for other reasons.

I honestly can't say I see a direction they want to go with nb but I can understand if you or anyone else sees a direction here. I just more see it as currently having a good overall toolkit and selection of recent buffs.

I guess I could say though that I think that cloak and crit strikes are encouraged as just being what nb does, that seems true.

Still, all that being said the brawlers I've encountered are usually fairly strong, though I also think I tend to run up against people that really like playing brawler and so as with any build, it just performs better because they are more used to it and enjoy playing it.

So I got curious and looked up Malcom's site to see what was currently available and found this to be pretty interesting for two reason, one of which really relates to the topic.

https://eso-pvp-builds.com/nightblade/

There are 6 builds for nb there. That's just interesting in showing the different ways including ganker and brawler that can be reliably built for nb.

The interesting thing though is that there is no ranged. I'm not saying this site is the be all end all of builds but if ranged was viable I'd expect it to show up here.

To my point though, there probably shouldn't be 6 good builds and styles when there isn't one for ranged. This is more so why I want to see the kit/power of nb be converted a bit to accommodate ranged vs just buffing ranged. Buffing ranged alone just adds another viable style for nb which is good but it seems like it already has a lot on its plate already no?

I mean what is your calculation on builds? Like the same build with a few sets interchanged? Because as of right now, the only good nightblade builds, would be the Hybrid meta, some sort of gankblade, and the proc blade (also known as meta).

Ranged nightblade isn't no where near playable. Yeah it exist, as much as you may not believe it. It exist, but after countless amount of patches where every single playstyle has been nerfed and buffed several times...Rangeblade only has recieved the nerfs. No buffs. *Well didn't they just get buffed* Don't even try to say that the merciless resolve no refresh change was a buff, because it really was not. Name some of the last 20 patches nightblade buffs and tell me how that makes rangeblade more playable...

I'll wait.

Bushido2513

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I just personally think ZoS doesn't even like that "brawlers" exist for nightblade pvp. I think they only want anyone to be a gank/assassin playstyle and nothing but for pvp

A brawler is only a brawler due to mitigation and healing. If they really had something against brawlers they would gut these things about NB I'd say. I don't think they support it but I certainly don't feel like they are doing as much as they could to kill it off. True there was the cloak change but that really didn't weaken things too much. But we might be talking about different types of build and skill layouts or something.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

I mean what is your calculation on builds? Like the same build with a few sets interchanged? Because as of right now, the only good nightblade builds, would be the Hybrid meta, some sort of gankblade, and the proc blade (also known as meta).

I mean any build that does what you want it to is a build to my. I don't really get into which build is best because that's just personal preference.

To me anything bad be a build and the best build is the one you have fun with. So maybe to me that's why I see some builds as playable that you don't.

Now would the build compete at a high level for ranged, well not very easily if at all. That's likely true. Those are the good builds I think you're speaking of so we just have different expectations.

FoJul wrote: »

Ranged nightblade isn't no where near playable. Yeah it exist, as much as you may not believe it. It exist, but after countless amount of patches where every single playstyle has been nerfed and buffed several times...Rangeblade only has recieved the nerfs. No buffs. *Well didn't they just get buffed* Don't even try to say that the merciless resolve no refresh change was a buff, because it really was not. Name some of the last 20 patches nightblade buffs and tell me how that makes rangeblade more playable...

I'll wait.

Again we have different definitions of playable so I understand where you're coming from.

You're looking for something that makes rangeblade playable at the higher levels and I think it's true that the hasn't happened in an overt way but there have been buffs that helped rangeblade depending on your playstyle.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I just personally think ZoS doesn't even like that "brawlers" exist for nightblade pvp. I think they only want anyone to be a gank/assassin playstyle and nothing but for pvp

A brawler is only a brawler due to mitigation and healing. If they really had something against brawlers they would gut these things about NB I'd say. I don't think they support it but I certainly don't feel like they are doing as much as they could to kill it off. True there was the cloak change but that really didn't weaken things too much. But we might be talking about different types of build and skill layouts or something.

The hybrid builds are not brawlers man. Nightblades are still pretty squishy.

A brawler Nightblade consist of atleast 5 heavy armor, Dark cloak, and Sword and Board.

Basically your building a high burst tank. The nightblades you see today are not that. They are just Really high damage, and the way it is build results in really high burst heals. NOT A BRAWLER.

Brawlers are build that can stand right in your face and take a punch while punching you back basically.

Bushido2513

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I just personally think ZoS doesn't even like that "brawlers" exist for nightblade pvp. I think they only want anyone to be a gank/assassin playstyle and nothing but for pvp

A brawler is only a brawler due to mitigation and healing. If they really had something against brawlers they would gut these things about NB I'd say. I don't think they support it but I certainly don't feel like they are doing as much as they could to kill it off. True there was the cloak change but that really didn't weaken things too much. But we might be talking about different types of build and skill layouts or something.

The hybrid builds are not brawlers man. Nightblades are still pretty squishy.

A brawler Nightblade consist of atleast 5 heavy armor, Dark cloak, and Sword and Board.

Basically your building a high burst tank. The nightblades you see today are not that. They are just Really high damage, and the way it is build results in really high burst heals. NOT A BRAWLER.

Brawlers are build that can stand right in your face and take a punch while punching you back basically.

You're basically talking semantics. The net effect is a build where you can take a hit and not really be affected then deliver a strong counter. The math is pretty much the same regardless of if the opponent heals the damage, causes you to do less damage, or has a combination of both. The result is an opponent that isn't running away whos health bar isn't moving all that much and who has good damage.

I find it's easier to classify a build by what it should be able to do vs how it does it because if you try to say how someone should do something it just gets into a silly argument about opinions.

So if someone walks up and says I'm a brawler I'm just going to ask can you take a hit and stand still with either mitigation, healing, or both and can you counter punch and make the opponent react? If so then yeah sure you're a brawler for all I care.

I could ask your way and say well tell me your armor weights, skills on bar, weapon, etc but all that's really doing is asking someone if they think the way you do. There's nothing wrong with that of course but I also don't feel that it encourages people to think outside the box about their builds and how to do something in a different way, etc.

FoJul

Bushido2513 wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I just personally think ZoS doesn't even like that "brawlers" exist for nightblade pvp. I think they only want anyone to be a gank/assassin playstyle and nothing but for pvp

A brawler is only a brawler due to mitigation and healing. If they really had something against brawlers they would gut these things about NB I'd say. I don't think they support it but I certainly don't feel like they are doing as much as they could to kill it off. True there was the cloak change but that really didn't weaken things too much. But we might be talking about different types of build and skill layouts or something.

The hybrid builds are not brawlers man. Nightblades are still pretty squishy.

A brawler Nightblade consist of atleast 5 heavy armor, Dark cloak, and Sword and Board.

Basically your building a high burst tank. The nightblades you see today are not that. They are just Really high damage, and the way it is build results in really high burst heals. NOT A BRAWLER.

Brawlers are build that can stand right in your face and take a punch while punching you back basically.

You're basically talking semantics. The net effect is a build where you can take a hit and not really be affected then deliver a strong counter. The math is pretty much the same regardless of if the opponent heals the damage, causes you to do less damage, or has a combination of both. The result is an opponent that isn't running away whos health bar isn't moving all that much and who has good damage.

I find it's easier to classify a build by what it should be able to do vs how it does it because if you try to say how someone should do something it just gets into a silly argument about opinions.

So if someone walks up and says I'm a brawler I'm just going to ask can you take a hit and stand still with either mitigation, healing, or both and can you counter punch and make the opponent react? If so then yeah sure you're a brawler for all I care.

I could ask your way and say well tell me your armor weights, skills on bar, weapon, etc but all that's really doing is asking someone if they think the way you do. There's nothing wrong with that of course but I also don't feel that it encourages people to think outside the box about their builds and how to do something in a different way, etc.

You literally have to be tanky to be a brawler...Dks are brawlers by design. Nightblade is not.