Support mains, how often do you kick fake dd?

FantasticFreddie

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

Yes they exist, a person select dd role but can’t fulfill dd responsibilities is a fake dd

So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?

By not doing enough damage to clear the dungeon. Yes, some dungeons DO have dps checks, some just become so difficult and time consuming with low dps it becomes exhausting and no longer fun as a support.
Dps in a vet dungeon need to have appropriate gear and some kind of rotation, period.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

Yes they exist, a person select dd role but can’t fulfill dd responsibilities is a fake dd

So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?

Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.

They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.

kargen27

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

endgamesmug

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Do you still get the heavy armour bow light attack users? That one really stood out for me when i used to tank pugs 5 years ago 😆

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

kargen27

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

FantasticFreddie

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

Once upon a time I took logs of a particularly bad pug run. One dd, a warden, had almost 50k health and was spamming resto staff and bow light attacks.
Logs revealed plauge doctor and warrior freakin poet armor, a mish mash of traits, , and base enchants. No monster set, and this was long before mythics. He had mostly damage skills but also several self heals and shields.

He was a prime example of someone who wasn't a tank, wasn't a healer, but also was not, by any stretch of the imagination, s damage dealer either. His primary role was "be annoying"

MidniteOwl1913

ForzaRammer wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

Yes they exist, a person select dd role but can’t fulfill dd responsibilities is a fake dd

So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?

Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.

They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.

What's a minimal amount of DPS?

MidniteOwl1913

ForzaRammer wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

Yes they exist, a person select dd role but can’t fulfill dd responsibilities is a fake dd

So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?

Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.

They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.

The "were they secretly tank/healers" was meant sarcastically.

I don't see any benefit to queuing as a DD unless you want that role.

Soarora

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

They do, but it’s not what you think. It’s not low DPS. I would agree that is not a fake DPS but a bad one, and my answer to that is just to stick it out unless the group cannot feasibly continue.
Actual fake DPS I leave instantly. If I’m queueing as a healer and a DPS is casting radiating regeneration I’m OUT.

I’m not being hypothetical. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

MidniteOwl1913

I will point out without comment that the dungeon finder for vet dungeons is unlocked at level 50.

kargen27

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Amottica

The poll leaves out an obvious response.

X I no longer queue for a random group due to fake DPS being prevalent in GF groups. I only run with guildies and friends.

Braffin

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

Years ago I occassionally enjoyed tanking in pugs, as I wanted to help newer players to find into this game's group content.

The experiences I made with (mostly "veteran") fake dds cured my altruism tho. Nowadays I exclusively run in premades (regardless of role) and finally have fun again when doing dungeons.

But if, by whatever circumstances, a fake dd would get lost and accidentally end in a group with myself, I would be an immediate kickvote.

Vevvev

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Only if there's absolutely no hope whatsoever will I go kick someone. And yes, that means I'll bash my head several times till I'm like "Yeah, nope."

Also if I'm playing the healer over tank I'll get far more aggressive. There have been points where my healer become the carrying DD, and I just... have no words for those moments. Like I'm even rocking full support sets, but if I flip to my damage bar and start outdoing two "damage dealers"... yeah. Thankfully such moments are incredibly rare and I can count them on less than 10 fingers.

When I tank I have less patience sadly, because I really am incapable on a full tanking set up to do anything about it.

LokiPagan

Not a support main or no opinion

Really depends. If it's a newer player with lower damage, I don't mind carrying as long as it isn't a vet DLC dungeon - my best parse is around 85k, so while I'm not top-tier, I'm still decent enough to compensate. If they won't listen to instructions/tips or are rude, or during this event I've had a few people just sit at the entrance and expect a box at the end...then I'll either kick or leave. I'm not playing with that nonsense.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

Yes they exist, a person select dd role but can’t fulfill dd responsibilities is a fake dd

So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?

Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.

They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.

What's a minimal amount of DPS?

Before we discuss what is the minimal, you yet to acknowledge the existence of the “non zero minimal requirement”?

kargen27

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with dungeons.

Thank you for your understanding

r34lian

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

What about fake tank?

Katheriah

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

Amottica wrote: »

The poll leaves out an obvious response.

X I no longer queue for a random group due to fake DPS being prevalent in GF groups. I only run with guildies and friends.

Yeah, I only pug during this event and honestly it makes me remember why I don't pug the rest of the year.

It also surprises me there are people that don't see the difference between a bad DD and a fake DD. I'm willing to help bad DD's, but there are people that obviously are only interested in getting carried.

Some people would not be able to finish solo quests ingame on some 'builds' and 'rotation' they bring to group content. Think about that. They don't want to put in effort, they want you to put in effort.

kargen27

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

Braffin

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

Jierdanit

Not a support main or no opinion

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

That severely depends on the difficulty of the content you're doing.

If a DD only does 5k DPS in a base game normal dungeon that might be annoying but won't actually hurt the group.
However if a DD only does 5k DPS in a DLC or Vet dungeon then everyone else is going to have to perform better to make up for 1 player being to weak for the content.

Similarly if a tank only taunts the bosses and nothing else that is going to be fine in base normal dungeons, but if he does the same in DLC and vet ones it's going to make the dungeon seriously more annoying and harder for the rest of the group.

A fake (or not good) DD in harder content is considerably more harmful to the group than a fake tank or heal in a rnd.

The easy answer to that is to simply get strong and good enough for the content you want to do before doing it.

No one wants to carry you and people are perfectly in the right to kick a DD that is providing less damage than the heal/tank.

AvalonRanger

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

1. Once I wanted to kick DD, because that one was wielding shield and keep stealing my real tank taunt,
and die many times. That was extremely stupid player. Maybe, lack of knowledge as beginner.

2. Somebody vote to kick DD because of wielding restro stuff, so I join to kick the guy out.

3.Some suicide speed runner DD ignore situation, so player who has quest vote to kick the selfish DD,
then I agree with it.

Only 3 case. Not much. Fortunately, I've never met fake DD in Vet dungeon as real tank.
But in normal, some inferior （or useless) DD actually exist. But, I don't kick them in normal
if they don't try to cross the line. (EX. steal my real tank taunt, too much ignore mech)

If you really hate fake role, doing Vet mode may solve it. (not always)

AvalonRanger

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

If DD can't grind out BS2 dungeon boss health with decent tank and healer support,
then you're 100% fake DD. Or doesn't have enough skill for challenging Vet contents.

If you have that experience as DD, then you can't complain against being kicked.

Katheriah

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

kargen27 wrote: »

Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

I would like to respectfully point out that's your opinion and I don't agree with all of it.

It is very possible to be so bad at your role that the only label that should be applied is 'wants a carry'.

Between 0 gear+0 skills and a minimally functioning DD is unfortunately a pretty big grey area which includes some people that are clueless (I'm willing to help them out, sometimes) and people that just don't care (and I'm not carrying them).