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Support mains, how often do you kick fake dd?
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FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Never kick fake dd, rather just leaveMidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?
By not doing enough damage to clear the dungeon. Yes, some dungeons DO have dps checks, some just become so difficult and time consuming with low dps it becomes exhausting and no longer fun as a support.
Dps in a vet dungeon need to have appropriate gear and some kind of rotation, period.5 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failMidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?
Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.
They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
endgamesmug✭✭✭✭Never kick fake dd, rather just leaveDo you still get the heavy armour bow light attack users? That one really stood out for me when i used to tank pugs 5 years ago 😆2
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ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?3 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Never kick fake dd, rather just leaveForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
Once upon a time I took logs of a particularly bad pug run. One dd, a warden, had almost 50k health and was spamming resto staff and bow light attacks.
Logs revealed plauge doctor and warrior freakin poet armor, a mish mash of traits, , and base enchants. No monster set, and this was long before mythics. He had mostly damage skills but also several self heals and shields.
He was a prime example of someone who wasn't a tank, wasn't a healer, but also was not, by any stretch of the imagination, s damage dealer either. His primary role was "be annoying"12 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?
Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.
They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.
What's a minimal amount of DPS?
PS5/NA1 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?
Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.
They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.
The "were they secretly tank/healers" was meant sarcastically.
I don't see any benefit to queuing as a DD unless you want that role.
PS5/NA1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Never kick fake dd, rather just leaveThis poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists
They do, but it’s not what you think. It’s not low DPS. I would agree that is not a fake DPS but a bad one, and my answer to that is just to stick it out unless the group cannot feasibly continue.
Actual fake DPS I leave instantly. If I’m queueing as a healer and a DPS is casting radiating regeneration I’m OUT.
I’m not being hypothetical. I’ve seen it happen more than once.Edited by Soarora on 10 September 2023 00:12PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
2 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I will point out without comment that the dungeon finder for vet dungeons is unlocked at level 50.
PS5/NA1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The poll leaves out an obvious response.
X I no longer queue for a random group due to fake DPS being prevalent in GF groups. I only run with guildies and friends.
10 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake ddYears ago I occassionally enjoyed tanking in pugs, as I wanted to help newer players to find into this game's group content.
The experiences I made with (mostly "veteran") fake dds cured my altruism tho. Nowadays I exclusively run in premades (regardless of role) and finally have fun again when doing dungeons.
But if, by whatever circumstances, a fake dd would get lost and accidentally end in a group with myself, I would be an immediate kickvote.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.5 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carryOnly if there's absolutely no hope whatsoever will I go kick someone. And yes, that means I'll bash my head several times till I'm like "Yeah, nope."
Also if I'm playing the healer over tank I'll get far more aggressive. There have been points where my healer become the carrying DD, and I just... have no words for those moments. Like I'm even rocking full support sets, but if I flip to my damage bar and start outdoing two "damage dealers"... yeah. Thankfully such moments are incredibly rare and I can count them on less than 10 fingers.
When I tank I have less patience sadly, because I really am incapable on a full tanking set up to do anything about it.
PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
LokiPagan✭✭✭✭Not a support main or no opinionReally depends. If it's a newer player with lower damage, I don't mind carrying as long as it isn't a vet DLC dungeon - my best parse is around 85k, so while I'm not top-tier, I'm still decent enough to compensate. If they won't listen to instructions/tips or are rude, or during this event I've had a few people just sit at the entrance and expect a box at the end...then I'll either kick or leave. I'm not playing with that nonsense.3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some3 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failMidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
So how do they not fulfill their role? Do they not move from the start of dungeon? Do they not have a weapon slotted? Were these secretly tanks and healers who just wanted a longer queue time?
Again, “being a support” is not a prerequisite of “being a fake dd”.
They can fulfill the dd role if they output more than minimal threshold amount of dps.
What's a minimal amount of DPS?
Before we discuss what is the minimal, you yet to acknowledge the existence of the “non zero minimal requirement”?1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some
You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."4 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick failForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some
You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.
You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.
According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.
If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.6 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with dungeons.
Thank you for your understanding0 -
r34lian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never kick fake dd, rather just leaveWhat about fake tank?
2000 CP • 18 Maxed Characters • 6 Altmers • 7 Redguards • Necromancer Orc • Warden Dunmer • DK Nord • DK Imperial • Templar Breton0 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake ddThe poll leaves out an obvious response.
X I no longer queue for a random group due to fake DPS being prevalent in GF groups. I only run with guildies and friends.
Yeah, I only pug during this event and honestly it makes me remember why I don't pug the rest of the year.
It also surprises me there are people that don't see the difference between a bad DD and a fake DD. I'm willing to help bad DD's, but there are people that obviously are only interested in getting carried.
Some people would not be able to finish solo quests ingame on some 'builds' and 'rotation' they bring to group content. Think about that. They don't want to put in effort, they want you to put in effort.4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some
You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.
You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.
According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.
If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.
My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.
A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake ddForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some
You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.
You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.
According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.
If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.
My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.
A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.
So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.
It's just a bad tank.
I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆Edited by Braffin on 10 September 2023 05:57Never get between a cat and it's candy!
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.6 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not a support main or no opinionForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »
I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.
All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.
Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?
Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.
1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd
Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?
No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.
Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?
What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some
You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.
You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.
According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.
If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.
My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.
A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.
That severely depends on the difficulty of the content you're doing.
If a DD only does 5k DPS in a base game normal dungeon that might be annoying but won't actually hurt the group.
However if a DD only does 5k DPS in a DLC or Vet dungeon then everyone else is going to have to perform better to make up for 1 player being to weak for the content.
Similarly if a tank only taunts the bosses and nothing else that is going to be fine in base normal dungeons, but if he does the same in DLC and vet ones it's going to make the dungeon seriously more annoying and harder for the rest of the group.
A fake (or not good) DD in harder content is considerably more harmful to the group than a fake tank or heal in a rnd.
The easy answer to that is to simply get strong and good enough for the content you want to do before doing it.
No one wants to carry you and people are perfectly in the right to kick a DD that is providing less damage than the heal/tank.PC/EU, StamSorc Main6 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry1. Once I wanted to kick DD, because that one was wielding shield and keep stealing my real tank taunt,
and die many times. That was extremely stupid player. Maybe, lack of knowledge as beginner.
2. Somebody vote to kick DD because of wielding restro stuff, so I join to kick the guy out.
3.Some suicide speed runner DD ignore situation, so player who has quest vote to kick the selfish DD,
then I agree with it.
Only 3 case. Not much. Fortunately, I've never met fake DD in Vet dungeon as real tank.
But in normal, some inferior （or useless) DD actually exist. But, I don't kick them in normal
if they don't try to cross the line. (EX. steal my real tank taunt, too much ignore mech)
If you really hate fake role, doing Vet mode may solve it. (not always)My playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.1 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carryIf DD can't grind out BS2 dungeon boss health with decent tank and healer support,
then you're 100% fake DD. Or doesn't have enough skill for challenging Vet contents.
If you have that experience as DD, then you can't complain against being kicked.
My playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.2 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake ddTank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.
I would like to respectfully point out that's your opinion and I don't agree with all of it.
It is very possible to be so bad at your role that the only label that should be applied is 'wants a carry'.
Between 0 gear+0 skills and a minimally functioning DD is unfortunately a pretty big grey area which includes some people that are clueless (I'm willing to help them out, sometimes) and people that just don't care (and I'm not carrying them).2