complain about some fake tanks

Videea

The role of a tank is to taunt the mob BEFORE it attacks (or kills other party members). The role of the Healer is obvious. DPS often have to wait more than 40 minutes for a queue. I understand the idea of not wanting to wait. But I will make a few suggestions. First, If the person doesn't have a "taunt" skill on their ability bar, they can't queue as tank, and the same idea with healer and DPS. Finally, if DPS characters are in so much huge supply that they have to wait over 40+ minutes for a RND queue, it would be best to consider making a REAL tank or healer. I play as a healer, and a fake tank wasn't able to taunt the mob and it ended up attacking and killing me. This tank (I won't mention the person's name) blamed me for not being able to heal and stated that any normal dungeon is easy, and it was my fault that I died. I can't remember which dungeon it was, but it was one of the hardest dungeons in existence (even other party members agreed). The party works as a team. If one person isn't doing their job as they are supposed to, then it endangers the whole party. There is a voting system in place, but they doesn't stop people from queuing as a fake, and the party members usually have no idea that there is a fake in the party until its too late. The voting system is used when something goes wrong. My suggestions would help avoid problems before they even start.

thorwyn

First, If the person doesn't have a "taunt" skill on their ability bar, they can't queue as tank, and the same idea with healer and DPS.

Ok so let's assume that slotting a taunt is some sort of entry code for a tank role. What happens if someone just slots a taunt spell and never uses it? What happens if he replaces the slotted taunt with some other spell once the dungeon has started?
And if someone slots a heal spell and a taunt spell... is he allowed to queue for all three roles?

Videea

What happens if someone just slots a taunt spell and never uses it? What happens if he replaces the slotted taunt with some other spell once the dungeon has started?
And if someone slots a heal spell and a taunt spell... is he allowed to queue for all three roles?

The original idea is to prevent fake tanks. The problem occurs when someone queues as a fake tank and isn't able to taunt at all. As far as what would happen if they re-slotted something else... well, no one would know, and that's where the voting system would come in. Hopefully his guildies or friends could help him/her learn how to best use their abilities for their role.
And if the person has all three abilities, I would say, YES, they can queue as any role they want. The voting system would be in place if the party did not like how they worked in the party, and their friends and guildies would be in place for anything else.... and if they don't have friends that play, join a guild and ask for help.

thorwyn

The original idea is to prevent fake tanks. The problem occurs when someone queues as a fake tank and isn't able to taunt at all.

Your idea does not counter fake tanks. Not even remotely.
DD's that are queueing as tanks know that they are fake tanks. They are not intending to taunt, regardless whether or not they have a taunt slotted. All you achieve by adding such a requirement is giving them a legitimate way of queueing as a fake role, because now they would just replace one of their flex slots with a useless taunt and say: hey look, even the game says I'm entitled to queue as a tank now.

svendf

A tank is one, who brings order to caos. Doing that, the tank have to, have good health, good resistance and tools. These tools are there to help, controling the adds, boss and weaken them.

So to the question - is a taunt enough ? That ansver is no. I hope that the Group Finder in update 40, will ease up on problems like this - though not naive. I imagine some will still try to do, whatever rock their boat, just for the fun of it.

Fake roles will only go away if it´s not possible to que as one, and some Mmo´s outthere have that inplace.

We can only hope Group Finder will change it, and it will become a little better. As it is a community tool, it´s put in the hands of the community to handle it.

For now. Stay out of dungeons and wait and see after update 40.

Videea

according to https://slang.net/meaning/tank ...In RPGs, MMORPGs, and MOBAs, a tank is a character whose primary role is to take the brunt of opponents' attacks, so other team members don't have to. When combat starts, tanks are typically first to enter the fray, with support and DPS characters following behind. In a team, The tank uses their taunt (keeping most/all mobs off other team members, and DPS are there to damage the mob a high amount, and the healer is there to mostly heal the tank, but to basically heal everyone in the party. I can tell you that with my healer experience, that healers cannot possibly heal certain 1 shot mechanics. My suggestions weer just that, suggestions. I was suggesting a way to PREVENT people from queuing as a fake. Go look at the thread name and see if it says anything about how to treat people who make suggestions. If you aren't making a suggestion, then consider the old saying "if you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem".

FantasticFreddie

mattaeus01b16_ESO wrote: »

As the most resent Fake Tank to leave a (random) Vet LOM said when I asked them "Why bother Queing for a random Vet if your just going to leave. They said "I play to have fun, and that dungeon is not fun"
"And what about the 3 people you left standing there that waited (in my case, 20 mins) for a Que to pop, who now have to reQue?"
... " I dont play this game to be stressed out, and I dont like that dungeon"

Besides this behavior, there is also a bug that will Automatically remove you from a group when you log in and then boot you from the dungeon... And then you find yourself sitting in a Ghost group from 3 days ago (Thank you Templars), that has been going on FOR YEAR AND YEARS NOW, that has never been addressed.

Ok but consider: LoM is an awful place. Has all of the worst mechanics. Immunity phases, doors, buggy adds, etc etc.

Videea

It looks like certain fake tanks are being selfish. Someone just simply wants things a certain way, no matter how it affects others. Consider why there is a term "Support Role"... A support role is to support others. I suggest that there be a way to reward people who do their role correctly.

Videea

@FantasticFreddie I am a templar... how do i do that ?

Videea

j/k about the above post... besides, i don't even think i quoted the right person....

FantasticFreddie

Videea wrote: »

j/k about the above post... besides, i don't even think i quoted the right person....

Well you tagged me and it didn't make sense LOL so I am going with not the right person

matrix268

thorwyn wrote: »

The original idea is to prevent fake tanks. The problem occurs when someone queues as a fake tank and isn't able to taunt at all.

Your idea does not counter fake tanks. Not even remotely.
DD's that are queueing as tanks know that they are fake tanks. They are not intending to taunt, regardless whether or not they have a taunt slotted. All you achieve by adding such a requirement is giving them a legitimate way of queueing as a fake role, because now they would just replace one of their flex slots with a useless taunt and say: hey look, even the game says I'm entitled to queue as a tank now.

If the idea were executed well it does actually counter fake tanks. While @Videea has an idea that would get the ball rolling in the right direction, a small addition that disabled the ability to remove the taunt from your bar once you hit "ready" would mean they would have to give up a damage dealing ability in order to queue as a tank, forcing them to do less damage than otherwise possible. If they weren't using the taunt in a harder dungeon and people were getting one-shotted, as @Videea said, it would be up to the rest of the group to decide to kick him, or allow him to keep letting the group die.

Warhawke_80

Just because I'm a Nightblade and I only wear a costume and a green Broadsword that dosen't make me a fake Tank....


What?

zaria

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Now this is more understandable, any magical build and warden in both can heal dungeons well enough.
And if people don't take damage I deal damage instead this tend to be true even in normal DLC or the old vet dungeons.

matrix268 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

The original idea is to prevent fake tanks. The problem occurs when someone queues as a fake tank and isn't able to taunt at all.

Your idea does not counter fake tanks. Not even remotely.
DD's that are queueing as tanks know that they are fake tanks. They are not intending to taunt, regardless whether or not they have a taunt slotted. All you achieve by adding such a requirement is giving them a legitimate way of queueing as a fake role, because now they would just replace one of their flex slots with a useless taunt and say: hey look, even the game says I'm entitled to queue as a tank now.

If the idea were executed well it does actually counter fake tanks. While @Videea has an idea that would get the ball rolling in the right direction, a small addition that disabled the ability to remove the taunt from your bar once you hit "ready" would mean they would have to give up a damage dealing ability in order to queue as a tank, forcing them to do less damage than otherwise possible. If they weren't using the taunt in a harder dungeon and people were getting one-shotted, as @Videea said, it would be up to the rest of the group to decide to kick him, or allow him to keep letting the group die.

This would be very bad as it depend on group and dungeon, probably more for healers who I have more experience with and you switch your DD/ heal on dungeon and group. Say darkshade caverns 2 vet with fake tank and pretty low dps. Here I would focus on damage with off heal until the last boss. On last boss I would focus on healing.
Doing shipwright regret vet I was told by the DD to just heal and buff as I did not know the mechanics but can heal and buff and range and it worked.

Foxxal

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

The entire dungeon event has been super frustrating. I started a new character to both level a sorcerer and see what the new player experience was like and oh my lord it's not good right now for dungeon players. I got 3 real healers out of 50 matchmade games! I was dying so fast even with self-heals just because low level players aren't meant to solo tank the entire dungeon. People also kept speed-running dungeons so new players were getting left behind, and people would just sit at the locked doors instead of killing the aggrod monsters, so no one could progress.

These weren't new player healers or tanks either. We're talking about fully levelled CP 600+ players.

MidniteOwl1913

If you queue for a support role tank/healer and don't perform that role, you don't stay with the party, don't help, I don't care what skills you have or your build you are a fake. Stay with the party and make an effort, that's all.

If a high damage-dealing DD runs ahead, drags a party-killing mob, and finishes bosses without waiting *that's* a fake DD!

So yeah I guess there are fake DDs.

matrix268

zaria wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Now this is more understandable, any magical build and warden in both can heal dungeons well enough.
And if people don't take damage I deal damage instead this tend to be true even in normal DLC or the old vet dungeons.

matrix268 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

The original idea is to prevent fake tanks. The problem occurs when someone queues as a fake tank and isn't able to taunt at all.

Your idea does not counter fake tanks. Not even remotely.
DD's that are queueing as tanks know that they are fake tanks. They are not intending to taunt, regardless whether or not they have a taunt slotted. All you achieve by adding such a requirement is giving them a legitimate way of queueing as a fake role, because now they would just replace one of their flex slots with a useless taunt and say: hey look, even the game says I'm entitled to queue as a tank now.

If the idea were executed well it does actually counter fake tanks. While @Videea has an idea that would get the ball rolling in the right direction, a small addition that disabled the ability to remove the taunt from your bar once you hit "ready" would mean they would have to give up a damage dealing ability in order to queue as a tank, forcing them to do less damage than otherwise possible. If they weren't using the taunt in a harder dungeon and people were getting one-shotted, as @Videea said, it would be up to the rest of the group to decide to kick him, or allow him to keep letting the group die.

This would be very bad as it depend on group and dungeon, probably more for healers who I have more experience with and you switch your DD/ heal on dungeon and group. Say darkshade caverns 2 vet with fake tank and pretty low dps. Here I would focus on damage with off heal until the last boss. On last boss I would focus on healing.
Doing shipwright regret vet I was told by the DD to just heal and buff as I did not know the mechanics but can heal and buff and range and it worked.

The idea spoke of locking ALL roles if the user can't perform the required function. I don't know a single dedicated DPS above level 50 that can't burn down one of the mobs with the chains in Darkshade Caverns 2 on normal, as I'm sure you're referring to the mech that kills the targeted player if they are not freed from the chains quick enough. But the idea is you have 2 of them anyways, so it really isn't a problem of lacking damage for the vast majority of normals. If there is any question as to whether or not this feature would work for the community, one need look no further than DCUO, an MMO in which roles are disabled if the player does not have the ability to perform the role due to character customization, and their community is all the better for it.

disintegr8

Too many people only want to run a DD and expect others to provide a tank or healer.

I've been running 8 randoms a day during the event, 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DDs. The DD's get the longest queues but never more than about 10 minutes and I do other things while queued, either crafting writs or quests. With Necrom being new, I'm also obtaining the new companions on them or leveling the companions up while queued.

I'd like to see a separate queue for non-DLC dungeons, maybe for something like half the rewards. Having ESO+ means you can get any dungeon and some of them are just obnoxiously long and tedious. Get a mediocre player or two in some of these when on a real tank or healer is so painful.

Elyu

Another wall of text from me, seems to be becoming a habit....

Lots of interesting replies here about group composition etc, but as many are about 'people being bad at their chosen group role' I'll limit my reply to a different problem; people queueing as 'tank' or 'healer' for random dungeons when they're clearly a dd.

As someone who does does this almost daily myself, the motivation is obvious - transmute stones. If you're (like myself) planning a build and need transmutes in order to reconstruct a full gear set (200-300 transmutes) the only reliable way to get them in any reasonable quantities, in a reasonable amount of time, is via random normal dungeons.
Undaunted pledges? 10 transmutes for 4 key pledges vs 1 random normal, nor brainer the random normal wins every time.

And why wait 20 mins sitting in the queue as a dd when you can run the dungeon with 4 dd (because random normal is easy).

So, proposed solution; more effort should mean more reward, similar to how the undaunted pledges currently operate

Idea 1: upgrade pledges:

OG normal dungeons (Fungal I, Spindle I etc) slight nerf: (1/2/4 transmutes)
OG vet dungeons (Fungal II, Spindle II etc) remain unchanged: (1/3/5 transmutes)
Year 1-2 DLC dungeons (ICP, Falkreath Hold): small buff (2, 4, 6 transmutes)
Year 3 onwards DLC buffed: (3, 5, 7 transmutes)

More incentive to run more difficult content.

Idea 2: rework random dungeons:

Normal random to keep it's exp component, but have a nerf to transmute reward from 10 to 5.

Random veteran to be split into two new options:
Random non-DLC vet - 10 transmute reward.
Random DLC vet - 12 transmute reward

Idea 3: combine undaunted pledges and random dungeons:

With the upcoming upgrade (hopefully) to the dungeon finder in update 40, there's every reason to integrate this change into the system as a maximum more effort = more reward.

NEW DAILY RANDOM: random pledge queue.

If you complete without a pledge in your quest journal - exclusive with random normal / random vet / random vet dlc. Rewards are +1 transmute compared to the non-pledge random variants (to encourage those only doing the random to help those doing their pledge)

If you complete with a pledge quest in your quest journal:

1st complete: No extra reward but the daily reset is not triggered
2nd queue: you're not queued for the pledge dungeon already completed. Upon completion, rewards from random normal daily.
3rd queue: you're not queued for the 2 pledge dungeons already completed. Upon completion, gain rewards for random DLC vet daily

So there is 2 dailies worth of incentive to complete all 3 pledges using the dungeon finder!

Ardriel

LordTareq wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Forget fake healers, I've seen fake dps recently.

That's why I actually prefer fake healers when I'm tanking. Fake dps is a real pain if you are on tank and can't do more damage. I even switched to dd skill in a couple of dungeons because the damage was so low and fake tanked. With taunt, ofc.
In the vast majority of dungeons, you don't need a healer. Apart from the extra damage, it's a good exercise for the DDs to learn to protect themselves and avoid damage. This should become an absolute habit. Otherwise, you will have a bad chance as a DD in the Endgame Trial content. You can't always rely on the healers. For people who complain about fake healers, I like to advise them to run solo arenas on vet. There is no healer or tank to save your butt.

Vulkunne

A Traditional Tank requires a Traditional group. You guys expect everything from the Tank when sometimes others in the group don't have it together, especially in support of the Tank. Why do you think fewer and fewer of us role Tank anymore?

That said, many raids can be done with 3D and 1H... or 4D sometimes.

So the role of the tank isn't as necessary as it once was and experienced DPS can aggro and do dmg in some instances. That's what makes it hard to have these conversations because sometimes it doesn't matter whether the Tank is fake or does dmg. The role is just not required but extra dmg and a little aggro does wonders.

AvalonRanger

Basically, real tank and healer are extremely stressful job. Those roles are
"care-taker role". Keep checking your team member's situation through the combat, and can't be selfish.
It's very responsible role rather than DD. So most of people avoid it.
And keep staying DD role, then take huge amount of waiting time for the queue.

But, real DD is not selfish player also. Real DD is not only just big canon, but also skillful target researcher.
Keep searching important or dangerous target which should be taken down during the combat carefully.
So, basically real DD is not quick dead player. I've seen those excellent DD player in PUG several times, and seen
useless DD player who can't do that many times.

If you just dislike care-taker role, and that's the reason to assign yourself as selfish DD in PUG.
Well...you had better avoid group mission anyway.

AvalonRanger

According to U40 news, new grouping system will solve these ideology friction.
But personally, if ZOS regard 4DD style is "good MMO design". Then I don't need
group dungeon contents anymore in the future DLC. I prefer to play story solo quest.

svendf

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, real tank and healer are extremely stressful job. Those roles are
"care-taker role". Keep checking your team member's situation through the combat, and can't be selfish.
It's very responsible role rather than DD. So most of people avoid it.
And keep staying DD role, then take huge amount of waiting time for the queue.

But, real DD is not selfish player also. Real DD is not only just big canon, but also skillful target researcher.
Keep searching important or dangerous target which should be taken down during the combat carefully.
So, basically real DD is not quick dead player. I've seen those excellent DD player in PUG several times, and seen
useless DD player who can't do that many times.

If you just dislike care-taker role, and that's the reason to assign yourself as selfish DD in PUG.
Well...you had better avoid group mission anyway.

Good post. You forgot one thing though We healers also have to take care of yourself

LittlePinkDot

Marcus684 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

This is just patently untrue. A fake tank is someone who queues as a tank with no intention of performing the role of a tank, almost always as a way to bypass the DPS queue. If a player queues as a DD but instead deliberately acts like a tank or healer (i.e. does not slot any damage skills and instead tries to only heal or tank), then you can call them a fake DD, but we all know this basically never happens unless the player is completely clueless and accidentally queues incorrectly. A "fake" is someone making a bad faith attempt to jump the line. What you are describing is a poor or inexperienced DPS, and calling them "fake" just smacks of elitism.

The word you want to use to describe them is irrelevant.
Regardless of what you want to call them, they either can do the damage required or they can't.
The result is the same regardless of what label you want to use.

ForzaRammer

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If you queue for a support role tank/healer and don't perform that role, you don't stay with the party, don't help, I don't care what skills you have or your build you are a fake. Stay with the party and make an effort, that's all.

If a high damage-dealing DD runs ahead, drags a party-killing mob, and finishes bosses without waiting *that's* a fake DD!

So yeah I guess there are fake DDs.

Your standard is just arbitrary and confusing.

2 people run ahead leaving 1 person behind means you get 2 fake dd in group? Or 0 fakes.

What if 1 of the 2 runner is in trial tank gear and actually taunting?

Why is the habit of the 2 slower player more important than the 2 faster players? Seems discriminatory.

Standards should be fair and objective. Distribution of responsibility should be even and reasonable.

ForzaRammer

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Being a tank and healer is not a prerequisite of being a fake dd.

The union of tank+healer+dd is not necessarily the whole player base.

Saying it over and over doesn’t make it true.

ForzaRammer

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I expect the tank to, lead, move into the room first grab aggro and turn the boss from the group so that the damage dealers can focus on doing damage. Tanking is the most demanding of the roles. I really admire people who do it well. A real tank (taunt, tank build etc) doing it badly is still a tank. A poser DPS queuing as a tank to avoid the longer queue is a fake.

A DPS who queues as a DPS and is just bad at it, low damage, can't seem to focus, is still a DPS. So if a DPS who doesn't do enough damage to meet some players expectations is a fake doesn't that make them faking till they make it? ;-)

Point is bad doesn't equal fake. It takes bad faith and a willing deception to accomplish that.

So you can have expectations for people in tank role but people in tank role can’t have expectations for you? Sounds hypocritical.

You want people to care about your problems, yet you actively minimize the suffering of us tank mains .

ForzaRammer

Marcus684 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

This is just patently untrue. A fake tank is someone who queues as a tank with no intention of performing the role of a tank, almost always as a way to bypass the DPS queue. If a player queues as a DD but instead deliberately acts like a tank or healer (i.e. does not slot any damage skills and instead tries to only heal or tank), then you can call them a fake DD, but we all know this basically never happens unless the player is completely clueless and accidentally queues incorrectly. A "fake" is someone making a bad faith attempt to jump the line. What you are describing is a poor or inexperienced DPS, and calling them "fake" just smacks of elitism.

1. You assume a fake dd need to be a tank or a healer, which is never proven, and union of t+h+dd is not even the whole player base.

2. Intention is purely subjective, you may see a poison spray / frag spammer as trying, i don’t

3. “Bad faith attempt to jump the line” is exactly what fake dd do as well, they don’t contribute enough in vet, instead of working towards it, they just want free carry.

4. You are claiming tank role have expectations for dd role is “elitism” while dd role have expectations for tank role is “birthright”, just xenophobic hate towards us tank mains.

ArchMikem

mattaeus01b16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno

I like how its become the norm now not to care what you Que for and speed run threw and entire dungeon as fast as you can while Dungeon bosses pull in the Group Members that are to slow weather they want to or not!

... yeah, that was sarcasm.

Now? Bud that's BEEN the norm for Dungeon Pugs. Also Gina doesn't need to see your sarcastic remarks, its neither helpful nor her department.