complain about some fake tanks

jsjem

That's fine to do most n DLC dungeons without tank, but recently I found a lot of fake tanks quit immediately when they find it's a DLC dungeon. We can still do it with 1h2d but that makes me feel uncomfortable, they will change a character and queue as fake tank again maybe until they are in a base game dungeon like Fungal Grotto 1.

Dr_Con

the whole idea of transmutes from randoms needs to be reworked with this in mind.

M0ntie

This happens very often.

wilykcat

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

CrashTest

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

jtm1018

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

PieMaster1

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

I fake tank all the time lol it's the only way to actually play within a reasonable timeframe

Arkew

Zos fault to not give to other role a lot of spotlight and instead increase the powercreep of DD to give him all the spotlight

Jierdanit

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Fake healers are way less of a problem than fake tanks though.
I've done vet HM dlc dungeons with 3 DDs instead of with healer in pre-made.
Might be more work for the tank though.

pklemming

My DDs all have sets allowing them to tank. If it is a non-dlc random, I just put up heal(or shield)chains taunt and major breach. if it is a dlc, then I swap in tanking stuff.

Poss

I don’t generally have an issue with fake tanks per se, as someone’s already said, the system of getting transmutes is broken and for people who grind all their toons every day, the wait times just doesn’t make it feasible. Most base game dungeons can be done without a tank.

The issue I have with fake tanks, particularly in the dlc dungeons, they never slot a a taunt or even attempt to play the role of a tank. I just did Coral Aerie on normal, yes it’s normal but there are still bosses with the potential to one shot. I had aggro of the first boss the entire fight, spent more time blocking than I did actually damaging. My stamina ran out and I was one shot. Then for every subsequent boss, he would wait for someone else to take aggro before running in and whenever something had aggro of him, he would run around trying not to get hit. It’s these fake tanks that do infuriate me.

If you fake tank, at least fulfil that role to a degree.

TybaltKaine

Fake tanks (and to a lesser extent Healers) exist because the default setting for a player is DPS. Unless you go in and change it yourself with intention to Healer or Tank.

There is also this ridiculous idea that support classes can't deal damage. I hit just as hard on my Tank or Healer as I do on my DPS build. Understand the class you play (take the time to actually learn) and how the skills and morphs work synergistically with each other (in the sense of supporting you, not an in-game Synergy).

Change DPS from Default Player Setting and allow a player to choose when they roll the character what they want to be. Just include it in the character creation. Also, maybe move the role change from the Group menu to the Skills menu.

endgamesmug

Ive been levelling a new account in random normals through 8 characters daily, its not the most efficient but its a way i enjoy and gives me what i need. I keep the bosses attention kill it and all the ads, keep everyone sustained and alive. One run i had what appeared to be 3 sword & board damage dealers, and alot of damage dealers wearing ebon armoury in other runs. 😂

Trancejet

Also having fake healer.
The game’s grouping system has the problem that fake healers and fake tanks both can queue with advantage to group faster.

Ragnarok0130

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

kojou

I'm a bit of a random dungeon group finder user, so I have some opinions as well. My preference (assuming everyone is ready for their roles) is to do a random DLC veteran dungeon since everything else is a bit easy and boring.

Assuming you are talking about the random veteran queue...

I have had everything from, tanks not ready for the first boss in Unhallowed Grave, to carrying a "fake DPS" through Coral Arie. The difference is obvious though. If the tank isn't ready then the group is a bust. Unless you get lucky and the other 3 players are total raiding "Chads" then you aren't going to succeed. If you queue as a tank and get one of the harder DLCs and you know you aren't ready then the best thing to do is drop the group since you are just going to waste everyone's time when you can't pass a boss with a harder tanking mechanic.

If you are talking about the random normal queue then the only reason people drop is sheer laziness. Some dungeons take longer to run because they are just bigger, and people don't want to run that long maze of of Moongrave just to get 10 transmutes when they can do Fungal Grotto for the same reward.

IMO, there are 2 problems that need to be addressed.

1. The rewards should be scaled for the content being run and the difficulty of it. I would like to see an additional 5 Transmute guaranteed reward given by the final boss for completing a DLC dungeon at normal difficulty, 10 for completing the same on veteran difficulty, and 20 for hard mode. This would certainly make me more likely to do a DLC than a base game dungeon, and probably even attempt more hard modes should I happen to have a group that seems capable.

This way players will get a better reward for spending significantly more time in a dungeon.

3. Running a "Random Normal" dungeon should not give the same amount of transmutes as a "Random Veteran", and players should be allowed to run both with full rewards. Currently, if you run a Random Normal then you get the "blue" tier reward if you run a random veteran as well. I would like to see random normal dungeons give 2x the experience and half the transmutes, and random veterans give 2x the transmutes and half the experience.

More experienced players just need the transmutes and that would push them to do the harder veteran content, and less experienced players likely need the leveling boost, and so that would push them to the normal content.

Jierdanit

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Vulkunne

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Marcus684

There's only a handful of DLC normal dungeons that I can think of that have a fight that requires a real tank, the first boss in Lair of Maarselok being the first to come to mind. I've seen so many pug groups fail at that boss when we have a fake tank due to how hard it hits even on normal.

Since fake tanks will always exist due to how few people actually want to tank, I think it'd be best if ZOS just designs normal dungeons around 4 DDs.

The other option is to make tanking more attractive to players so more of them do it. I personally hate tanking because of how difficult it is to see boss mechanics through all of the flashy effects and view-blocking pets that players use.

Jierdanit

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.

DPS simply is the only role that is capable of carrying a group through a dungeon on their own. If I queue for a random normal on my DPS I can probably solo basically anything we get, if I would queue on a tank I'd have to get lucky with the group so that it doesn't take hours to complete something I could do myself in 20 minutes.

Put on top of that the fact that you're probably going to wait at least 10 times as long if you queue as dps than if you queue as tank and ofc people are going to cheat the system.

Only possible solutions are to either split the queues for base game and dlc rnds up, so that people who aren't capable of doing dlc dungeons can queue for just the easier ones (probably make dlc give slightly more rewards).
Or to actually force people to prove that they are capable of properly doing their roles, by for example forcing dps to do a parse before queuing where they have to get like at least 20k dps (and similar things for tank/heal).

I'm pretty sure a lot more people would play real tanks/healers if they could be sure that the dps they end up with are not completely useless.

AlterBlika

Tanking normals is kind of cringe for me, but anyway, I sometimes pug as a real tank in vet dungeons, and amount of fake dds is ridiculous. They do near to zero damage - what an experience being a tank! So no surprise there, playing real tank is so unrewarding in this game.

ArchMikem

I had someone immediately quit when we pugged into normal Black Drake Villa. They're loss, we 3 player'd it pretty smoothly.

Braffin

AlterBlika wrote: »

Tanking normals is kind of cringe for me, but anyway, I sometimes pug as a real tank in vet dungeons, and amount of fake dds is ridiculous. They do near to zero damage - what an experience being a tank! So no surprise there, playing real tank is so unrewarding in this game.

Exactly this. Fake dds are the reason why I completely stopped tanking and pugging years ago. Never had problems in dungeons since then.

And yes, a player which isn't able to do the necessary dps for group content (we are talking about 15k regarding normal dungeons) is as fake as a tank without taunt.

LunaFlora

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Braffin

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

Jazraena

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

You're missing OPs point.

They're abandoning DLC dungeons they can't handle, thus leaving the 3-man group to deal with it without tank or a third DPS.

The_Boggart

Even worse is queuing as a genuine tank, getting into the dungeon and getting kicked immediately so they can get a chum in

Marcus684

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

This is just patently untrue. A fake tank is someone who queues as a tank with no intention of performing the role of a tank, almost always as a way to bypass the DPS queue. If a player queues as a DD but instead deliberately acts like a tank or healer (i.e. does not slot any damage skills and instead tries to only heal or tank), then you can call them a fake DD, but we all know this basically never happens unless the player is completely clueless and accidentally queues incorrectly. A "fake" is someone making a bad faith attempt to jump the line. What you are describing is a poor or inexperienced DPS, and calling them "fake" just smacks of elitism.

pklemming

Yeah, if you are a dd queueing as a tank, at least make the effort and pretend to give a damn about the other 3 people in group. Kind of like the DDs that port in and rush off to train and solo bosses while the other group members are still getting themselves together.

LunaFlora

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

LordTareq

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Forget fake healers, I've seen fake dps recently.