Where are the QoL improvements for Sorcerer?

Pelanora · November 2023

"Your job as game director is to 'safeguard this tradition: do it well.' Taking a step back and being like 'no, what if the tradition's wrong now?' … that can be a hard conclusion to come to, but we're there."

Preach asks whether knocking down one design domino led to others falling, too: "I think it [did], ultimately. It was asking the question of 'are these principles actually making our players happier? Who are they serving?' If we're honouring some vision [but] it's alienating our players, who is that good for? It's not us, and it's certainly not them."

https://www.pcgamer.com/world-of-warcrafts-director-says-the-game-is-letting-go-of-old-stubbornness-after-the-fumbles-of-shadowlands/

Some good questions for zos to ask itself ... about sorc.... (and others)

Duke_Falcon · November 2023

8–) I keep jumping in here ever week or so expecting a Dev to pop in and say, “We did some testing and found Sorc a little weaker in class balance compared to other classes and these are the changes we are going to make to it…..”

Don’t lose hope guys. Any reasonable person who gives it an unbiased look will see some of what the pro Sorc advocates in here are saying is true.

Out of curiosity how many of us go up against hard core Vet. DK players and can consistently beat them with out streaking away from the fight. I mean seriously running away from a fight should not have to be a class identity. lolol 😂

I only kite when I’m outnumbered. 1v1’s I stand my ground and fight, and against Vet DK pvpers I win 10-20% of the time. I’d really like to see that number closer to 50/50% of the time.

Now I’m not taking about casuals who are just in the game to be social, or new players still figuring things out, because those I’m beating 90% of the time.

I’m talking about hard core long time competitive try hard players with good attitudes & good sportsmanship who are reasonable to talk to after a 1v1, who understand their classes passives and know how to tweak every bit of power out of their class. Those DK’s I’m usually losing 1v1s to.

Nightblades and Wardens are a similar experience though not as bad, those are closer to 30/70 or 40/60, still in their favor though.

Now remember my question involves good player vs good player not you vs the general population, because try hard Sorc vs general population we are still winning over 90% of the time and that’s just because we try hard to.👍

ZhuJiuyin · November 2023

For most casual players, players who have very little time to play sorc, etc., the experience of sorc is very good, because there are two pets that continuously provide damage, so that they do not have to manage, or manage very few skills.

But for serious and high-end sorc players, the SORC experience is extremely poor, lacking sufficient damage, survival, and recovery, especially the magic version of sorc. Both PVE and PVP present the same situation.

Moreover, these serious sorc players have put forward various actual data and hard analysis, rather than simply saying that sorc is good or bad based on their feelings. ZOS really needs to seriously review sorc and redo it, and listen carefully to the advice of players who play sorc seriously.

Pelanora · November 2023

I found sorc really hard as a first time newbie, in eso, but also a newbie in playing these kind of fighting games (this is a pve story), and thought it was the game being hard and me being bad at it. Eventually, after maybe a year, i tried out a dk, and was just so angry, tbh. So ridiculously easy. I got it to level 18 ish before i lost interest and went back to figuring out sorc. and figuring out how to be better at the game. So...... it's not easy. Dk is easy. But I've got pretty good at sorc now in pve as I've levelled up, although I'm 100% sure id last seconds in pvp, especially with my usual 350 ping.

Duke_Falcon · December 2023

What?!?! Kevin is going to give the Sorc Major Prophecy in the class tool kit and take the cast time off of Dark Deal/Conversion!!!

Oh, not yet?

I'll check back in a few weeks, I'm sure they would make those 2 little concessions for us sooner or later.

Duke_Falcon · December 2023

Merry Christmas!!!

Duke_Falcon · December 2023

Sigh... nothing yet.

Happy New Years!!!

Pelanora · December 2023

I'm holding out hope the 'new systems' mentioned in The Letter will change up sorc pets and no pets sorc....

Turtle_Bot · December 2023

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

Sigh... nothing yet.

Happy New Years!!!

Probably won't be anything until the announcement for the next patch in late January if there's going to be anything at all. Even if there's anything, it will probably just be something that further buffs pet-sorc while gutting no-pet sorc even more... Because that's all they've done to sorc for so long now.

At least pet-sorc will be included in groups exclusively for the atro synergy I guess, although I doubt this will last long as they have been giving out major berserk like candy lately, putting it on anything and everything they could get away with. It wouldn't surprise me if they release a set in the next year that grants group wide major berserk that's even easier to proc than using a synergy from an ultimate (or they'll give that group buff to NB on a spammable ability just because).

RebornV3x · December 2023

One thing Ill add that probably hasn't been said here can we get rid of "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka." that comes with Streak and its morphs WHY does Sorcerer have the only skill in the game that your punished for spamming It just sad that Sorcerer has been treated so badly in ESO

Duke_Falcon · January 11

RebornV3x wrote: »

One thing Ill add that probably hasn't been said here can we get rid of "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka." that comes with Streak and its morphs WHY does Sorcerer have the only skill in the game that your punished for spamming It just sad that Sorcerer has been treated so badly in ESO

I don't mind the increased cost of Spamming Streak, but put it on Nightblades cloak just to be fair. I hate the fact that running away "HAS" to be a play style in a fighting game. lolol X-D That's just silly.

The cast time on Dark Conversion and no Major Prophecy in the class tool kit are the real killers for Mag Sorc.

Having to wear Chudan to get rid of a Class Skill just so we can run Mages Light to get Major Prophecy on a class that essentially has to have it to make the passive heals from the class barely function is rough.

Also the cast time on a Dark Deal/Conversion is more likely to kill you than heal you is also very lame because the heal/skill cancels via dodge roll, block, sprint, bar swap, ect....

Those 2 changes and the Mag Sorcerers quality of life goes up quite a bit. Does it put it on par with Nightblade, DragonKnight, Warden, or Arcansit? I don't think so, but it'd make Mag Sorc a lot more fun to play.

Duke_Falcon · January 11

Pelanora wrote: »

I'm holding out hope the 'new systems' mentioned in The Letter will change up sorc pets and no pets sorc....

I agree, I have faith in ZoS. From the time I started playing the game at Morrowind DLC till now, my honest assessment has been that they have balanced the game pretty well. As well as vastly improved the lag and blue screens.

I hear people complain about lag still, but there's no 2 second delay on skills going off anymore.

Xing full groups is pretty much a thing of the past as well which means more class balance had happened over time. I have give credit where credit is due. I do miss Xing full groups though. lolol

Pelanora · January 18

Well.....i don't think scribing covers changing pets or the passives... so....

Turtle_Bot · January 18

Pelanora wrote: »

Well.....i don't think scribing covers changing pets or the passives... so....

Scribing is for weapon abilities only (for now).

What it may help with though is being able to fill in a gap better than current existing options, so that will be nice. Have to wait and see what their implementation of the system is though (and other balance changes along the way).

Pelanora · January 18

Yep. We wait and see.

How can they have missed that everyone is desperate for new skins as a minimum, and new creatures as a middle way, and finally, just a whole re think.... how can they not see the demand.....i really hope this year delivers some change.

katorga · January 19

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

One thing Ill add that probably hasn't been said here can we get rid of "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka." that comes with Streak and its morphs WHY does Sorcerer have the only skill in the game that your punished for spamming It just sad that Sorcerer has been treated so badly in ESO

Having to wear Chudan to get rid of a Class Skill just so we can run Mages Light to get Major Prophecy on a class that essentially has to have it to make the passive heals from the class barely function is rough.

This. Compare to NB where almost all of their buffs are applied passively just by using or slotting offensive skills in a burst rotation.

Bound Armaments needs a 25% damage buff to bring it into alignment with other classes' skills that function similarly.

Sorcerer (and Templar) Damage shield caps need to be removed or modified....Arcanist shields are larger, do damage and burst heal.

Dark conversion needs cast time removed...none of the other classes' sustain skills or burst heal skills have cast times.

The class needs viable options ways to play without using pets.

Bushido2513 · January 19

katorga wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

One thing Ill add that probably hasn't been said here can we get rid of "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka." that comes with Streak and its morphs WHY does Sorcerer have the only skill in the game that your punished for spamming It just sad that Sorcerer has been treated so badly in ESO

Having to wear Chudan to get rid of a Class Skill just so we can run Mages Light to get Major Prophecy on a class that essentially has to have it to make the passive heals from the class barely function is rough.

This. Compare to NB where almost all of their buffs are applied passively just by using or slotting offensive skills in a burst rotation.

Bound Armaments needs a 25% damage buff to bring it into alignment with other classes' skills that function similarly.

Sorcerer (and Templar) Damage shield caps need to be removed or modified....Arcanist shields are larger, do damage and burst heal.

Dark conversion needs cast time removed...none of the other classes' sustain skills or burst heal skills have cast times.

The class needs viable options ways to play without using pets.

Honestly I'd be happy with fracture on curse and bigger shields or a hot on shields

NuarBlack · January 20

Pelanora wrote: »

Well.....i don't think scribing covers changing pets or the passives... so....

While I agree, I would say being able to change the damage type of skills would go a long way in letting you fix some of the synergy problems many class passives have.

I'm a little worried it will be limited to their template skills though. If that's the case sorc and other classes still need lots of work.

Pelanora · January 20

Yea that should be good. Do you think we can play with every single skill on a weapon, or are they giving us a single new skill we can customise? Id kind of assumed they were putting everything up for grabs but now I'm thinking it's just a single new one..... which is less fun....

NuarBlack · January 20

Pelanora wrote: »

Yea that should be good. Do you think we can play with every single skill on a weapon, or are they giving us a single new skill we can customise? Id kind of assumed they were putting everything up for grabs but now I'm thinking it's just a single new one..... which is less fun....

That was my understanding based on the presentation that you would unlock one skill per weapon line that could be customized. They implied it could be coming to other skills but I'm inclined to think that's bait marketing. So I'm betting it's just the one skill at launch and who knows what the wait time will be for others.

You will be able to change cosmetic colors of skills though from what I gathered. Don't think it's damage type though. Would be nice if that were the case.

Pelanora · January 20

Well.......poos??!!!! I hoped they were throwing it open. Id tweak a few bow skills! As starters!

Id love to reduce the timer on curse..... the other morph, not the pets one. So the second hit comes at 8 secs not 10.... usually the guy is dead before the second hit fires. And 6 seconds for the pet morph is so short.

Balance in all things!

Pelanora · January 21

katorga wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

One thing Ill add that probably hasn't been said here can we get rid of "Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka." that comes with Streak and its morphs WHY does Sorcerer have the only skill in the game that your punished for spamming It just sad that Sorcerer has been treated so badly in ESO

Having to wear Chudan to get rid of a Class Skill just so we can run Mages Light to get Major Prophecy on a class that essentially has to have it to make the passive heals from the class barely function is rough.

This. Compare to NB where almost all of their buffs are applied passively just by using or slotting offensive skills in a burst rotation.

Bound Armaments needs a 25% damage buff to bring it into alignment with other classes' skills that function similarly.

Sorcerer (and Templar) Damage shield caps need to be removed or modified....Arcanist shields are larger, do damage and burst heal.

Dark conversion needs cast time removed...none of the other classes' sustain skills or burst heal skills have cast times.

The class needs viable options ways to play without using pets.

Lol Sometimes i wonder if we park a truck outside the main studios with 'fix sorc passives and buffs' written on the side??!! Or write a bunch of actual letters? I mean seriously what does it take to get them to do something???!!!!!

CGPsaint · January 22

Pelanora wrote: »

Lol Sometimes i wonder if we park a truck outside the main studios with 'fix sorc passives and buffs' written on the side??!! Or write a bunch of actual letters? I mean seriously what does it take to get them to do something???!!!!!

I posted for over a year requesting some sort of feedback regarding broken achievements and received nothing but crickets. My expectations are exceedingly low.

ZhuJiuyin · January 24

Will we see improvements to Sorc's useless skills at U41?
Boundless gained 7m distance
Lightning Splash gets buff
Encase and Rune Prison have been redesigned
Bound Armaments allows players to gain critical damage instead of 8% stamina
Dark Magic's Passive Abilities have been redesigned

The list is still long...
As an old class, Sorc urgently needs to be re-examined

StaticWave · January 25

I’ve been tinkering with Hardened Ward for a while and saw some limitations with the scaling:

1) If stacking max mag, you will have less potential damage because abilities scale better with spell damage

2) If stacking max HP, you will also have less potential damage in exchange for more tankiness

A suggestion could be to increase the base tooltip of Hardened Ward and reduced the scaling so that the tooltip remains unchanged, but you now have more freedom over sets and stacking spell dmg instead of being forced to go max mag.

Or the easiest way is to make shield scale with max offensive stats, but the scaling will need to be adjusted

Turtle_Bot · January 25

StaticWave wrote: »

I’ve been tinkering with Hardened Ward for a while and saw some limitations with the scaling:

1) If stacking max mag, you will have less potential damage because abilities scale better with spell damage

2) If stacking max HP, you will also have less potential damage in exchange for more tankiness

A suggestion could be to increase the base tooltip of Hardened Ward and reduced the scaling so that the tooltip remains unchanged, but you now have more freedom over sets and stacking spell dmg instead of being forced to go max mag.

Or the easiest way is to make shield scale with max offensive stats, but the scaling will need to be adjusted

The main issue is that shields as a mechanic don't hold up on their own anymore after all the nerfs ZOS has done to them mechanically.

The reason arcanist shields are so good is they provide very strong additional utility on top of being big temporary health buffers.
- Interrupt immunity (Pragmatic Fatecarver)
- Healing (Tidal Chakram)
- Huge damage return, in other words, space creation/breathing room (Sanctum of abyssal sea)
- Big shields to allies (Gibbering Shelter)
- Self stacking with itself (Chakram of destiny)
Simply reworking the scaling and size of hardened/regenerating wards won't be enough anymore. ZOS has destroyed shields as a mechanic far too much for this.

If I were to rework conjured ward + morphs I would do the following:
Conjured Ward:
Shield cap is increased to 65% of max health.

Hardened Ward:
Cap scales from 72% to 75% as it levels. Now grants interrupt immunity while active and reduces damage the shield takes by an additional 10%.

This emphasizes the hardened aspect of this morph and helps it to last slightly longer by slightly reducing the damage it takes.

Regenerative Ward:
Shield cap is now 65% of max health to match Conjured Ward. Now also heals the caster for X health per second for 10 seconds on cast and grants minor vitality while the shield is active.

This emphasizes the regenerative aspect and finally gives sorcerer a real heal over time in the class kit.

This also creates a unique decision dynamic for sorcerers to choose from. Do you go with hardened for the slightly bigger shield + dark deal is now a reliable heal, or do you forgo the more reliable access to dark deals sustain/buffs and run regenerative for the heal + shield to give you better survivability/recovery from the execute phase.

Values can be adjusted as needed, but this would be a good starting point for giving these skills some utility as more than just a (very) temporary health increase.

StaticWave · January 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hardened Ward:
Cap scales from 72% to 75% as it levels. Now grants interrupt immunity while active and reduces damage the shield takes by an additional 10%.

Honestly, giving Hardened Ward interrupt immunity could just be the solution to solve Dark Deal's reliability issue without making it OP. I think you should make a separate thread with this suggestion and tag the devs tbh @Turtle_Bot

Turtle_Bot · January 26

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hardened Ward:
Cap scales from 72% to 75% as it levels. Now grants interrupt immunity while active and reduces damage the shield takes by an additional 10%.

Honestly, giving Hardened Ward interrupt immunity could just be the solution to solve Dark Deal's reliability issue without making it OP. I think you should make a separate thread with this suggestion and tag the devs tbh @Turtle_Bot

I've been thinking about making another suggestion thread to put forward some suggestions for sorc.

I haven't done so yet, mostly because I don't know where to put it or who to tag. Everything not in general seems to get mostly ignored, (even if the devs/mods/etc. are tagged) and anything in general tends to get moved and subsequently dies off anyway...

If you have a suggestion as to where to put it and the appropriate devs to tag, I'll be happy to make such a thread. @StaticWave

There's a few small changes that would actually help sorc (all sorcs).
- prophecy/savagery access
- utility effects on wards that's not just size/scaling
- breach access

It would be helpful to have a thread to get a consensus on where to include these things and have a conversation with the devs to hopefully discuss reasons for the changes and get their feedback/input on them.

StaticWave · January 26

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hardened Ward:
Cap scales from 72% to 75% as it levels. Now grants interrupt immunity while active and reduces damage the shield takes by an additional 10%.

Honestly, giving Hardened Ward interrupt immunity could just be the solution to solve Dark Deal's reliability issue without making it OP. I think you should make a separate thread with this suggestion and tag the devs tbh @Turtle_Bot

@Turtle_Bot I thought about it more and the interrupt immunity from shield could also make hard casting Cfrag reliable, which means freeing up 1 extra slot because we can now use Cfrag as a spammable like dizzying swing AND a burst ability when the skill procs itself. Then we'd have room to stack more max mag with Bound Aegis or use Bound Arms for more dmg, or whatever ppl desire. This could be a distinct advantage of Sorc over other classes that use a cast time ability.

Turtle_Bot · January 26

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Hardened Ward:
Cap scales from 72% to 75% as it levels. Now grants interrupt immunity while active and reduces damage the shield takes by an additional 10%.

Honestly, giving Hardened Ward interrupt immunity could just be the solution to solve Dark Deal's reliability issue without making it OP. I think you should make a separate thread with this suggestion and tag the devs tbh @Turtle_Bot

@Turtle_Bot I thought about it more and the interrupt immunity from shield could also make hard casting Cfrag reliable, which means freeing up 1 extra slot because we can now use Cfrag as a spammable like dizzying swing AND a burst ability when the skill procs itself. Then we'd have room to stack more max mag with Bound Aegis or use Bound Arms for more dmg, or whatever ppl desire. This could be a distinct advantage of Sorc over other classes that use a cast time ability.

I'm often finding the issue with hard casting frags is not getting interrupted via bash/crushing shock/CC, it's getting interrupted because of LoS, positional desync'd dodge rolls etc. that the skill just fails to fire. Interrupt immunity wouldn't really fix that, although I do agree that interrupt immunity with hardened ward up would be nice QoL.