Where are the QoL improvements for Sorcerer?

Turtle_Bot

Done the same thing on my magblade; mist form + refreshing path + offering with the exact same kiting possibilities as streak + boundless, but I also had a reliable burst heal in offering on top of that too (oh and I still had cloak as well lol).

Also, fun fact, I didn't need to use elusive mist since I already had evasion and expedition from blur and refreshing path, so I got to slot blood mist for an additional AoE DoT/HoT that made me even tankier.

Zabagad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I can do every single trick with mist form that I can do on streak (turn mid travel, jump at the end, etc etc)

I was never able to do the turn mid travel (personal reasons), but since ~U38 I cannot jump at the end.
Do you (and the other sorcs ofc as well) still jump at the end?

MashmalloMan

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No, the best stun in the game is Fossilize. Yes, it’s single target, but it is also unblockable/undodgable and immobilizes you afterwards, and doesn’t require aiming.

Most DKs go for Shattering rocks these days so Fossilize's root must not be that big of deal, it's single target and very short range but yeah it's a great stun too, and lol at Streak needing aiming with its massive AoE.

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, you can’t be serious to say the 2% wd is better than 300 wd lol. First of all, yes it’s always up, but with the condition that you have to be on that bar. That means you won’t get the 2% if you swap to another bar. 300 wd from Mist Form will carry over to the other bar, and having it last 6s means you can just use it every 6s like how Streak users would use it every 7s to stun people lol.

Second of all, the 2% wd is not even comparable to 300 wd in terms of value. For that 2% wd to give an equal value, you would need to have your BASE wd to be 15000 (2% * 15000 = 300). I’m actually going to break it down mathematically for you to see just how wrong you are.

Let’s use my build for example. I currently have 7.3k weapon damage fully buffed. That’s a respectable amount for most builds. Say, I remove all the % wd modifiers to find my base wd value. That’s 10% from medium armor, 20% from Major Brut, 3% from Dawnbreaker, and 8% from slotting 4 Sorc skills, totaling 41%.

7300 - (7300 * 41%) = 4307 wd.

That is my base wd without a single modifier. That’s still 10693 wd short of the required 15k base wd for 2% modifier to give an equal wd value to 300 wd.

Not only that, but this 300 wd ALSO GETS BUFFED by my 41% wd modifier. That’s 423 wd with modifiers, making the comparison even worse for the 2% value. For that 2% value to be equal, it would require you to have a 21150 BASE wd value. Sorry lol, that is never going to happen.

I am, I don't care about mathemagician tricks and what looks good on the UESP build editor, I care about what actually works in game. The 2% is always there while if you're not a nightblade the Strike from the shadows buff most likely wont be up when you need it the most.
And you streak every 7 sec because you have a very good reason to do so (the best stun in the game), you certainly wont waste gcds mist forming every 6 gcds just to keep that buff up.

StaticWave wrote: »

I said I wouldn’t use Mist because I need 2 conditions to be met: 1) I need a burst heal, and 2) I need bar space for a stun.

I run a shield, so that can be thrown out for something like Healthy Offering. However the 2nd condition hasnt been met yet, and that is what keeps me from slotting Mist on Sorc. I would 100% slot Mist if Sorc gets Off Balance for one of its offensive ability.

Well if you have a flex spot then replace Streak with Mist form and use that flex spot for Turn evil for your stun. And for the burst heal, you play stamsorc, you should be used to surviving with just Crit surge, Vigor and Dark deal. Play with it for like 1-2 hours and tell me Mist form is even close to Streak.
Like I said, beyond the passives and secondary effects, one skill is responsive and does its primary function well the other is an unresponsive trashfire of a skill that often gets you killed because of how it works, anyone who actually used it in Cyro for an extended amount of time realized it.

How are you acting like his math is some trick. It's just objectively how flat values are better in this game and how multipliers are deceptively worse. Plus, are we forgetting that that 2% is easily replicated for a NB using a Fighters guild skill on their bar for 3%. In an actual build, a NB has much more build flexibility to fit those skills vs Sorc. The difference between the 2 classes ends up probably between 2-4% out of a 50% multiplier.

You can make the same comparison with Necro's 200 mag/stam regen for a summon vs Sorc/NB/Warden's 10-20% regen. It's no match because of the way we build our characters. At a measily +50% modifier, easily met and can go much higher. That 200 becomes 300, so Sorc/NB/Warden at lets say an average between the 3 classes at +15% would need a base value of regen equal to 2000. This is before modifiers.

Do you know anyone that builds 2000 mag/stam regen (3k+ after modifiers)? No.

Plus, you keep talking about Sorc's 2% weapon damage passive, but NB gets an extra 300/400 FLAT weapon damage again from Grim Focus which conveniently is up all the time instead of requiring upkeep, and to top it off, they're getting the 300 weapon damage from Mistform which... conveniently procs Concealed Weapons Major Berserk for another 10% damage.

I'm not saying Streak is bad, I love it and I don't agree with OP, but you can't say it's a trick/build editor thing when the uptime on all those bonuses in actual fights is very easy to manage and much stronger than a 2% passive. It's negligible.

Turtle_Bot

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I can do every single trick with mist form that I can do on streak (turn mid travel, jump at the end, etc etc)

I was never able to do the turn mid travel (personal reasons), but since ~U38 I cannot jump at the end.
Do you (and the other sorcs ofc as well) still jump at the end?

They supposedly fixed the jump at the end of streak in U38 (it was another shadow nerf to sorcs that wasn't included in the patch notes).

I have heard of some sorcs still being able to do it, but I haven't been able to since then.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Done the same thing on my magblade; mist form + refreshing path + offering with the exact same kiting possibilities as streak + boundless, but I also had a reliable burst heal in offering on top of that too (oh and I still had cloak as well lol).

Also, fun fact, I didn't need to use elusive mist since I already had evasion and expedition from blur and refreshing path, so I got to slot blood mist for an additional AoE DoT/HoT that made me even tankier.

And.. you get minor expedition and major berserk from your spammable which happens to passively proc just for using Refreshing Path or Elusive Mist.

1. A Sorc can't stack Minor/Major Exp in class like that because they come from the same skill.
2. Major Berserk for us is on a 170 ult cost Atronach (no ult gen from pots or siphoning skills)... that an ally needs to synergize within the 15s window.

NB is just a better Sorc in every way. The NB bias the past 2 years is just endless.

"Lets just toss them Major Prophecy on cloak for sh*ts and giggles." when Sorc/Necro have been begging for it for years.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No, the best stun in the game is Fossilize. Yes, it’s single target, but it is also unblockable/undodgable and immobilizes you afterwards, and doesn’t require aiming.

Most DKs go for Shattering rocks these days so Fossilize's root must not be that big of deal, it's single target and very short range but yeah it's a great stun too, and lol at Streak needing aiming with its massive AoE.

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, you can’t be serious to say the 2% wd is better than 300 wd lol. First of all, yes it’s always up, but with the condition that you have to be on that bar. That means you won’t get the 2% if you swap to another bar. 300 wd from Mist Form will carry over to the other bar, and having it last 6s means you can just use it every 6s like how Streak users would use it every 7s to stun people lol.

Second of all, the 2% wd is not even comparable to 300 wd in terms of value. For that 2% wd to give an equal value, you would need to have your BASE wd to be 15000 (2% * 15000 = 300). I’m actually going to break it down mathematically for you to see just how wrong you are.

Let’s use my build for example. I currently have 7.3k weapon damage fully buffed. That’s a respectable amount for most builds. Say, I remove all the % wd modifiers to find my base wd value. That’s 10% from medium armor, 20% from Major Brut, 3% from Dawnbreaker, and 8% from slotting 4 Sorc skills, totaling 41%.

7300 - (7300 * 41%) = 4307 wd.

That is my base wd without a single modifier. That’s still 10693 wd short of the required 15k base wd for 2% modifier to give an equal wd value to 300 wd.

Not only that, but this 300 wd ALSO GETS BUFFED by my 41% wd modifier. That’s 423 wd with modifiers, making the comparison even worse for the 2% value. For that 2% value to be equal, it would require you to have a 21150 BASE wd value. Sorry lol, that is never going to happen.

I am, I don't care about mathemagician tricks and what looks good on the UESP build editor, I care about what actually works in game. The 2% is always there while if you're not a nightblade the Strike from the shadows buff most likely wont be up when you need it the most.
And you streak every 7 sec because you have a very good reason to do so (the best stun in the game), you certainly wont waste gcds mist forming every 6 gcds just to keep that buff up.

StaticWave wrote: »

I said I wouldn’t use Mist because I need 2 conditions to be met: 1) I need a burst heal, and 2) I need bar space for a stun.

I run a shield, so that can be thrown out for something like Healthy Offering. However the 2nd condition hasnt been met yet, and that is what keeps me from slotting Mist on Sorc. I would 100% slot Mist if Sorc gets Off Balance for one of its offensive ability.

Well if you have a flex spot then replace Streak with Mist form and use that flex spot for Turn evil for your stun. And for the burst heal, you play stamsorc, you should be used to surviving with just Crit surge, Vigor and Dark deal. Play with it for like 1-2 hours and tell me Mist form is even close to Streak.
Like I said, beyond the passives and secondary effects, one skill is responsive and does its primary function well the other is an unresponsive trashfire of a skill that often gets you killed because of how it works, anyone who actually used it in Cyro for an extended amount of time realized it.

How are you acting like his math is some trick. It's just objectively how flat values are better in this game and how multipliers are deceptively worse. Plus, are we forgetting that that 2% is easily replicated for a NB using a Fighters guild skill on their bar for 3%. In an actual build, a NB has much more build flexibility to fit those skills vs Sorc. The difference between the 2 classes ends up probably between 2-4% out of a 50% multiplier.

You can make the same comparison with Necro's 200 mag/stam regen for a summon vs Sorc/NB/Warden's 10-20% regen. It's no match because of the way we build our characters. At a measily +50% modifier, easily met and can go much higher. That 200 becomes 300, so Sorc/NB/Warden at lets say an average between the 3 classes at +15% would need a base value of regen equal to 2000. This is before modifiers.

Do you know anyone that builds 2000 mag/stam regen (3k+ after modifiers)? No.

Plus, you keep talking about Sorc's 2% weapon damage passive, but fail to mention NB gets 300/400 FLAT weapon damage again from Grim Focus which conveniently is up all the time instead of requiring upkeep, and to top it off, they're getting the 300 weapon damage from Mistform which... conveniently procs Concealed Weapons Major Berserk for another 10% damage.

Look I'm not saying Streak is bad, I love it and I don't agree with OP, but you can't say it's a trick/build editor thing when the uptime on all those bonuses in actual fights is very easy to manage and much stronger than a 2% passive. It's negligible.

Streak is a strong ability, but it in no way is strong enough to carry the downsides of:
- horrendous healing
- one dimensional offense
- no real defense
- serious lack of utility
- complete lack of versatility/diversity

It's why when you look at mist form on other classes, it actually does compare to streak. Other classes (outside of necro and in some cases plar) have the required utility, defense, healing and offensive options in their class kit to make mist form a real alternative to streak for those classes.

Sorc is forced to run streak over mist form (and BoL) because of sorcs horrendous bar space issues that still haven't been fixed for over 5 years now (since the removal of overloads 3rd bar). It's why mist form is bad on sorc and sorc should not be used as an excuse to say mist form is bad and can't compare to streak because sorc doesn't run it over streak. If sorc doesn't run streak, sorc doesn't have the bar space to fit both mist form and a stun (required for both offense and defense in PvP) without giving up on something else that is basic and mandatory to allow the class to function at all:
- a damage skill, which means the sorcs burst will never get a kill
- a basic buff (such as brutality/savagery/resolve)
- a heal over time (vigor/crit surge)
- a "burst heal" (dark deal/conversion)

P.s. not directed at you, but those who are constantly crying about streak like we don't currently have RaT, Mist Form, Celerity CP, Swift jewelry traits, refreshing path, warden wings and countless other ways to keep up with sorcs via gap closers or just easy mobility options as if sorc actually has a class kit that is on par with NB/DK.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Done the same thing on my magblade; mist form + refreshing path + offering with the exact same kiting possibilities as streak + boundless, but I also had a reliable burst heal in offering on top of that too (oh and I still had cloak as well lol).

Also, fun fact, I didn't need to use elusive mist since I already had evasion and expedition from blur and refreshing path, so I got to slot blood mist for an additional AoE DoT/HoT that made me even tankier.

And.. you get minor expedition and major berserk from your spammable which happens to passively proc just for using Refreshing Path or Elusive Mist.

1. A Sorc can't stack Minor/Major Exp in class like that because they come from the same skill.
2. Major Berserk for us is on a 170 ult cost Atronach (no ult gen from pots or siphoning skills)... that an ally needs to synergize within the 15s window.

NB is just a better Sorc in every way. The NB bias the past 2 years is just endless.

"Lets just toss them Major Prophecy on cloak for sh*ts and giggles." when Sorc/Necro have been begging for it for years.

Completely forgot about those 2 buffs, that's how overloaded the NB class kit is... That's absurd...

1. Yeah, NB was supposed to be the stealth class with sorc being the speedy mobile class, funny how NB is now both and sorc is barely even speedy anymore.
2. Yeah, atro not having a self synergy is why I've never counted major berserk as a buff sorcs have access to in their kit. If it requires someone else to do something to gain that buff, it is not accessible in the class kit and should not be counted.

Yeah, the NB bias has been crazy absurd, the devs constantly buffing it to no end (generically and not where it actually needs help which is in end game PvE), and the forums are flooded with NB mains who still claim the class is bottom tier in all aspects of the game like the buffs of the past 18 months never happened...

At the time, I cheered for the buffs magblade (and NB in general) got, now, I'm wishing they had just leftt the class as it was so we wouldn't have gotten to where we are now...

Don't get me started on giving cloak major prophecy/savagery, that was the most offensive, targeted and spiteful change ever made in this game.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

P.s. not directed at you, but those who are constantly crying about streak like we don't currently have RaT, Mist Form, Celerity CP, Swift jewelry traits, refreshing path, warden wings and countless other ways to keep up with sorcs via gap closers or just easy mobility options as if sorc actually has a class kit that is on par with NB/DK.

Figured and yeah, it's quite ridiculous. Sometimes I feel like Sorc is always put on this hypothetical podium in peoples minds from back when it was actually top tier (without relying on broken meta sets like Savage Werewolf, Oakensoul or Malacath) for a few years.. except that was back in 2014-2017.

If you look at the Sorc changes throughout the games life cycle it feels like we've only remained neutral while other classes continue to get stronger.. Patch after patch I see nothing notable happens for Sorc while other classes get tossed named buffs and debuffs on "underused" abilities or simply buffing skills because of X standard like cloak with major prophecy now.

Not bashing on DK, but for example randomly a few patches FOO got bumped from 1 target, to 2 targets, to 3 targets. Why? Did anyone ask for that? Was that a highly requested feature? The heal morph still does 1 target awkwardly too.

Then Sorc.. We ask for better buff/debuff access but more specifically Major Prophecy, better shield scaling for ESO 2023 context, Hybridization for BA, Hybridization for Crystal Frags, an on demand hot, to not over buff Crystal Weapon because it would inevitably met with a heavy handed nerf, up the DPS (in U35) because they nuked us, remove the reliance on pets for the games most important defensive archetype; burst heals.

What did they do?

• They gutted our dps with U35, we said Sorc was terrible, they promised prayers would be answersed. Here we gave Daedric Prey 25% more pet damage. DPS fixed.
• They overbuffed Crystal Weapon to make it have any semblence of identity, it's obviously too strong. Gut it like a fish! It does less damage than it used to, but you get a second tick.. on a spammable..Fixed.
• We want some common named buffs like Major Prophecy. Here, take minor force and minor berserk, even though a common build for Sorc was to use Camo Hunter for berserk/prophecy that we're missing. Fixed.
• Oakensoul releases, it's obviously OP. Lets nerf Sorc Atro's from 28s to 15s. Fixed. Oh wait lets nerf Oakensoul now too..the root of the problem. Fixed.
• Atro's Synergy is severely outdated, it should effect the user and more allies. Sure, but we're also going to toss it like candy to NB and DK on spammable skills, because why not, major berserk is common now! Fixed.
• Minor Expedition, that unique thing Sorc's had.. lets toss it to NB who can stack it with Major Exp. Fixed.
• Ball of Lightning is too powerful, it absorbs infinite projectils for 4s.Okay, lets nerf it to 1 per second, then give a better version of that skill with massive defensive/offensive power to every class. Fixed.
• Shield scaling sucks, maybe make it scale like Resto Wards (damage + resources) so Mag Sorc isn't pidgeonholed into max mag builds for 9+ years. SURE! We'll add hp scaling.. for.. tanks and stam sorc?... except Sorc Tanks best skill is Bound Aegis which gives block mitigation and that doesn't work with shields. Fixed.
• Hybridization everyone! Stam builds can now use their class burst heal and hots!.. Oh but not you Stam Sorc, that would be too op, good luck fitting that bird on your bar. Oh Mag Sorc, sorry, you don't want to use Bound Armaments, it gives you stamina. Fixed.
• Hey remember Hybridization that buffed everyone in a massive way except for Sorc.. yeah we're going to nerf Bound Armaments by 11% and remove the Light Attack damage bonus because you can use Curse/Crystal Frag now. Fixed.
• No pet Sorc dps is dead, can we get some improvements to that playstyle? Maybe add some QOL to Fury/Lightning Splash? Sure! Take a massive nerf to Lightning Splash to make it hit less over 10s then what a Crystal Frag can do in 1 second. Fixed.
• Stam Sorc has a hard time surviving, healing is bad, but at least we can proc Crit Surge with our massive self aoe dot. Nahhhhhh, that should tick on 2s like every other ability, Class idenity say what?! Fixed.

Hell I could go back even further..

• Stam Sorc lacks identity, the only skill we use from the class as a damage dealer is Hurricane! Air Atro please, maybe convert a morph from Mages Fury into an instant spammable for Stam/Mag Sorc? We hear you Stam Sorcs, take a copy/pasta of Crushing Weapon and Grim Focus. Fixed.
• Rebate is terrible, why would I want mag return when a pet dies, can we get an actual healer or tank passive? Good point, take 300 mag or stam instead for Daedric Skills ending on a class with 6/12 sustain passives. Fixed.
• Encase, Rune Prison and Daedric Mines are very niche skills, not many Sorcs use them or can fit them on their bars. Can we do something with these? Nah... Fixed.
• Bar space is very limiting, but thank God the class was designed in a way where we can rely on good old Overload 3rd bar to compensate for that. Nahhhh... thats gone. Fixed.
• Any compensation for the above, maybe make some skills have better value on the bar, some named buffs please? No, keep begging for another 6 years, we'll think about it. Fixed.

This was mostly for jokes, there are some decent changes throughout the years.

• Bound Aegis is good now, just flawed logic on a class that is heavy into shields.
• Crystal Weapon is more forgiving with the 6s, but lacks oomph as a spammable, works better as a delayed burst skill.
• Bound Armaments 8% stam on both bars, but gives Mag Sorc nothing for hybridization.
• Ults anyone can use now since CP 2.0 removed the magical/martial differences of CP 1.0, so I'm no longer fighting for Air Atro.
• Shield health scaling is okay, but not what we asked for, shields still suck.
• Pets still suck.
• Hurricane morphs nerfed, all damage source tick frequency nerfed, so Crit Surge nerfed... however, dot sets crit now, so that allows Sorc's which don't have a sticky dot built in, to get one via a set.. As others expressed, they feel shoehorned though.
• Mag/stam from daedric skills is alright, just feels like a bandaid for a class that doesn't need any more sustain passives. Quit jumping to this well you pull from all the time. 10% cost on Crystal Weapon/Frags, this passive, more resources from overload, more resources from Endless Fury. We don't need all this when at the end of the day, we're going to crutch on Dark Deal/Conversion.
• The changes to Dark Deal/Dark Conversion were really good, originally they didn't have a clear distinction between the morphs. It was stam vs mag. Now they're functionally different, giving mag better burst, but stam better sustain over time for less time. The minor force/berserk are nice touches on a class with no named buffs, but not exactly what we needed and are historically easy to obtain through other obvious means. Whatever.. I'll take it.

MashmalloMan

Oh something that is increasingly obvious to my above comment is how Mag Sorc skills are esentially never touched in the history of ESO. I do have the perspective of being a Stam Sorc main, but I mean I really can't think of anything notable. No big reworks, no named buffs/debuffs. Same old same old.

• Haunting Curse.. same skill since 2015/2016ish. Literally.
• Mages Wrath deals better aoe damage and Endless Fury better sustain. This is a whatever change, they're still bad executes, only used to steal kills in low mmr BGs. They deal low damage and the threshold is too low at 20%, where everyone's undeath passive kicks in. An already low damage execute is not going to kill them, especially when you have a Mag Sorc building 100% into Max Magicka to get better shields.
• Crystal Frags has kept it's powerful instant proc, but lost the stun. Crystal Blast for PVE dps spammers is gone. The hard cast is okay to use for pve now that it's 0.8s, but the meme of seeing a Mag Sorc in BGs hard casting frags and instantly knowing they're an easy kill is still present today because you can interupt the stupid thing.
• Missing out on features from Bound Armaments, better to just simplify things by using Curse/Frags.
• Crystal Weapon is decent, but you have to give up Crystal Frags for it.'
• Power Overload is still strong. Desync for the win I guess?
• Dark Conversions 25% buff and Minor Berserk helps their low bar space and lack of burst heal, but not enough changes elsewhere in the kit still leave it behind defensively.
• Shield Health scaling, possible to go a non Max Mag build, but shields still suck.
• Hardened Ward was buffed, but it doesn't make up for the nerfs to all shields in that patch back in 2017-2019 when they were about to add a cast time to shields lol.
• Critical Surge used to not provide Major Sorcery, they had to use Power Surge for a lesser heal. Small buff, but ultimately, Hybridization would of addressed this if they didn't back then.
• Streaks aoe is better and stuns through block, BOL was nuked. Both skills are easier to use for momentum, but I'm now finding out you can't jump at the end of them as of U38?
• Rune Cage was gutted, no one uses this anymore.

Is there something I'm missing?

ZhuJiuyin

Before the new patch was released, I checked the eso log again. The following is the number of sorcers in the DPS top 100 in the trial (HM).

VSE HM =0
VDSR HM =2
VRG HM =0
VKA HM =3
VSS HM =0

Ironically, that's a pretty good report card, right?
Sorcers, especially magicka sorcers need to be redone and need more buffs, otherwise they won't be able to compete fairly with other classes.

MashmalloMan

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Before the new patch was released, I checked the eso log again. The following is the number of sorcers in the top 100 in the trial (HM).

VSE HM =0
VDSR HM =2
VRG HM =0
VKA HM =3
VSS HM =0

Ironically, that's a pretty good report card, right?
Sorcers, especially magicka sorcers need to be redone and need more buffs, otherwise they won't be able to compete fairly with other classes.

I haven't played since U35 and while I'm good at pve dps rotations (you need to be if you're good at pvp at all).. I've never done trial hm competitively (mostly because it's a huge time sink to find a guild willing to train you).

It's my understanding that Sorc "can" hit the hardest single target dps (140k dps via a bit of cheese) and they provide the group with Major Berserk via atro.

Can you elaborate why a Sorc isn't wanted? It would seem like there is some decent reasons from a 3rd party perspective.

• Is it because our cleave is terrible?
• Is it because Major Berserk is easy to come by instead of waiting for an ultimate?
• Is it because Minor Prophecy isn't needed when a NB can provide everyone with Minor Savagery instead?

Are trial comps just 6 Arcanists (dps + aoe), 3 Necro (major vuln/support), 1 DK (brutality/tank), 1 Warden (toughness/healer) and 1 NB (savagery)? or something along those lines?

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Before the new patch was released, I checked the eso log again. The following is the number of sorcers in the top 100 in the trial (HM).

VSE HM =0
VDSR HM =2
VRG HM =0
VKA HM =3
VSS HM =0

Ironically, that's a pretty good report card, right?
Sorcers, especially magicka sorcers need to be redone and need more buffs, otherwise they won't be able to compete fairly with other classes.

I haven't played since U35 and while I'm good at pve dps rotations (you need to be if you're good at pvp at all).. I've never done trial hm competitively (mostly because it's a huge time sink to find a guild willing to train you).

It's my understanding that Sorc "can" hit the hardest single target dps (140k dps via a bit of cheese) and they provide the group with Major Berserk via atro.

Can you elaborate why a Sorc isn't wanted? It would seem like there is some decent reasons from a 3rd party perspective.

• Is it because our cleave is terrible?
• Is it because Major Berserk is easy to come by instead of waiting for an ultimate?
• Is it because Minor Prophecy isn't needed when a NB can provide everyone with Minor Savagery instead?

Are trial comps just 6 Arcanists (dps + aoe), 3 Necro (major vuln/support), 1 DK (brutality/tank), 1 Warden (toughness/healer) and 1 NB (savagery)? or something along those lines?

It comes down mostly to point number 1, but it's also because outside of that 1 cheese option of 500 overload at the start of the parse (which is not practical in actual in game content due to the group dps loss from not having berserk for the first 15-20 seconds), sorcs actual DPS is significantly lower (sitting around the 130k mark, which DK and arcanist already reach but without giving up their objectively better cleave damage).

Sorcs AoE is just so bad that outside of specifically giving it 1 of the "Support DPS" roles for the group wide major berserk from atro, its never brought into the top groups.

Another fun fact, its not even magsorcs that are brought along, its stamsorcs with their access to the objectively better cleave options available to the stamina weapons. Magsorc simply doesn't exist in the trials, at all.

One final fun fact, vAS, which is the only purely single target trial that is supposed to heavily favor sorcs and NB single target DPS, had only 3 sorcs in the top 100 when I checked ESO logs about a week ago.

ZhuJiuyin

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I haven't played since U35 and while I'm good at pve dps rotations (you need to be if you're good at pvp at all).. I've never done trial hm competitively (mostly because it's a huge time sink to find a guild willing to train you).

It's my understanding that Sorc "can" hit the hardest single target dps (140k dps via a bit of cheese) and they provide the group with Major Berserk via atro.

Can you elaborate why a Sorc isn't wanted? It would seem like there is some decent reasons from a 3rd party perspective.

• Is it because our cleave is terrible?
• Is it because Major Berserk is easy to come by instead of waiting for an ultimate?
• Is it because Minor Prophecy isn't needed when a NB can provide everyone with Minor Savagery instead?

Are trial comps just 6 Arcanists (dps + aoe), 3 Necro (major vuln/support), 1 DK (brutality/tank), 1 Warden (toughness/healer) and 1 NB (savagery)? or something along those lines?

Yes, low AOE damage is the main reason. Coupled with other minor factors, Sorcer's PVE experience is very poor.

Now a trial team only needs one sorcer or NB (mostly sorcer, because it can give the team Major Berserk, but since Major Berserk has become cheap and easy to obtain, this advantage is gradually disappearing)

Another point is that since PVE sorcerers are all pets sorcers, if the sorcer dies, it will take a lot of time and magic to re-summon pets after resurrection, which seriously reduces the team's DPS. Especially when a nuclear bomb is needed to attack the BOSS, spending 6 to 7 seconds summoning a pet is a terrible waste.

In addition, due to the lack of common buffs or impractical class skills (no one will carry Critical Surge in PVE), the sorcer must rely on teammates or potions to obtain the required buffs.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would seem like there is some decent reasons from a 3rd party perspective.

Considering that the devs also seem to think sorc looks fine, my guess is this is the reason why they think sorc is fine the way it is, none of them actually play the class, so they only ever look at it from an external perspective.
i.e.:
- looking at it on paper/spreadsheets where it looks fine
- parses, that are tailor made for sorcerer by providing all the possible buffs/debuffs of a top end trial group while also being single target, non-moving, with free sustain perfectly timed to the cooldown and doesn't fight back.

I mean, if we were to set up trial dummys to actually represent in game content, we would be basing classes on having between 1-3 of the 21M dummies, 5-8 of the 6M dummies and a bunch of the 3M dummies scattered around with fewer buffs/debuffs provided, less perfect shards for sustain, the dummies move around and on top of that have 1 shot mechanics/abilities that you have to dodge.

Would be nice to see the results of those more realistic parsing conditions and where each class lands on that, guarantee it would look more like the current trial leaderboards and nothing like the current parses people are using to claim sorc is fine.

Quethrosar

how about making the stuns that cannot be blocked actually not be blocked or whatever it is doing where the people do not get stunned?

defensive rune, or streak do not always stun people, most often then not it doesn't.

how are people dodging my instant cast skills when they do not roll ?

MashmalloMan

Quethrosar wrote: »

how about making the stuns that cannot be blocked actually not be blocked or whatever it is doing where the people do not get stunned?

defensive rune, or streak do not always stun people, most often then not it doesn't.

Maybe this goes without saying, but you know there is a 7s cooldown before you can be stunned after you break free from a stun right?

It's the same reason once you get stunned, you can cast Dark Deal/Conversion without fear of being interupted.

Quethrosar wrote: »

how are people dodging my instant cast skills when they do not roll ?

Are you referring to ranged instant cast skills like Crystal Frag, Bound Armaments, and Endless Fury?

Projectiles have a minimum travel time built into the game so even in melee range, they take... I think it was 300 mileseconds to hit the target, but this is the minimum. It increases the farther you get. If at any point an enemy dodges while that projectile is in motion, it will be dodged by the time it reaches the enemy.

At least thats my understanding of it.

Endless Fury is a weird 1 because it doesn't show a projectile, but it definitely has a delay. It's a terrible melee execute, not instant at all. Instant just means instant cast, it doesn't instantly hit the enemy.

StaticWave

Tbh I would like for Sorc to finally receive off balance through one of the class skills. It’s not top priority, but it would hopefully enable some builds to use Ball of Lightning/Mist Form instead of Streak for extra survivability and rely on Off Balance for the stun.

i11ionward

StaticWave wrote: »

Tbh I would like for Sorc to finally receive off balance through one of the class skills. It’s not top priority, but it would hopefully enable some builds to use Ball of Lightning/Mist Form instead of Streak for extra survivability and rely on Off Balance for the stun.

How about adding a single target DoT to Sorc's class kit. For example, this could well be one of the morphs of the Rune Prison skill, or Lightning Splash or even Mages' Fury or Ball of Lightning.

Tyrant_Tim

Daedric Minefield is a better root than Encase, an ability designed for it, if there were any abilities on Sorc to change, they would be that and Rune Prison, as it’s extremely unreliable and Streak works as a better class stun.

Those two skills have better versions, found within the class itself.

Turtle_Bot

I've suggested a rework to rune prison multiple times now since U36, making it a sticky DoT and defensive rune a sticky self HoT (with appropriate values and durations to keep them balanced).

It's been completely ignored, so I doubt they're going to give sorc anything as nice as that.

StaticWave

i11ionward wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tbh I would like for Sorc to finally receive off balance through one of the class skills. It’s not top priority, but it would hopefully enable some builds to use Ball of Lightning/Mist Form instead of Streak for extra survivability and rely on Off Balance for the stun.

How about adding a single target DoT to Sorc's class kit. For example, this could well be one of the morphs of the Rune Prison skill, or Lightning Splash or even Mages' Fury or Ball of Lightning.

Would you be willing to drop one of your current skills for Rune Prison? Both stam and magsorc have very limited bar space to fit all the skills they want. I don't think there's even room to use Rune Prison at all lol.

Sorc's damage isn't bad IF you can manage to fit all of its offensive skills. So far, the only spec that can do that is hybrid ranged sorc, as demonstrated by a sample skill setup below:



That empty slot is a flex spot because I have Chudan in the build and using Spell crit potion. I can throw a stun there to use Ball of Lightning, another defensive skill, or another DoT. Point is, you HAVE to play as a hybrid ranged sorc if you want to free up bar space, and you have to make sacrifices to free up bar slot. It sucks, but that's a result of Cwep being clunky as a melee spammable and Sorc lacking important Major Buffs/Debuffs.

ZhuJiuyin

Unless most skills are remade, I think it will be difficult to improve the quality of life of the sorcer.
Crystal Shard, Dark Exchange have a cast time
Daedric Mines have a wait time
Rune Cage has to a wait time to take effect
Shattering Prison also needs to wait to deal damage (compared to other classes that can deal instant damage and immobilize enemies,
Shattering Prison is pretty bad. )
Mages' Fury has a not described wait time (about 1.5 seconds)
Lightning Splash has a not described wait time (or an excessively long casting animation)

The same is true for passive skills and AOE damage. Energized is almost useless because the sorcer lacks enough Shock Damage. Amplitude reduces the sorcer's executes ability. Expert Mage lost to Fighters Guild's Slayer, while Slayer was available to everyone.
Crystal Shard Single Target
Daedric Mines Single Target
Daedric Curse single target (explosion splash is low Area damage)
2 pets single target (Volatile Familiar's skill is low Area damage)
Bound Armaments Single Target
Mages' Wrath single target (for targets with 20% health, the effect is Area)
Lightning Form Area
Lightning Splash Area
Bolt Escape Area

statistics
7 Single Target: 3 Area


Sorcer has too much to improve, otherwise it will be difficult to compete with other professions.
Sorcer does have hope for Monolith of Storms, but only if the set has more buffs and improved proc conditions.

CGPsaint

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Sorcer has too much to improve, otherwise it will be difficult to compete with other professions.
Sorcer does have hope for Monolith of Storms, but only if the set has more buffs and improved proc conditions.

Just a quick shout out. It's Sorcerer. I saw the message in your signature. Not criticizing or trying to be rude, but Sorcerers need all the love they can get, including the extra "er!"

RaptorRodeoGod

"Sorcerer can't be good at everything"

Tannus15

at a hight level i see these as being the main goals for sorc

1. Move damage from pets into the rest of the skill line so they are an equal option, not the only option
2. Reward sorcs for leaning into shock builds
3. Address the lack of bar space when using pet builds

nerf daedric prey pet damage buff

change the shock damage passive to 20%. leave the physical damage alone.

add major proph / sav to tormentor and remove tormentor activation that no one uses

reduce the time for the second hit on haunting curse to 5 seconds from 8.5. and the first from from 3.5 to 3

change bound aegis and bound armament +max resource to literally anything. probably weapon damage for armament and regen for aegis?

clean up and merge the sustain passives.
change some skills to use max / min resource instead of only mag to assist with hybrid balance on mag sorc.
increase the weapon/spell damage % passive to 5%
add a passive that rewards attacking off balance targets

shift some of the damage from lightning splash synergy to the damage ticks.

increase the damage of the initial hit of mages fury

i'd like to remove the cast time from frags so it's smoother to use, but I realise this is just a thing i want, not necessarily a thing the class needs.

CGPsaint

Tannus15 wrote: »

i'd like to remove the cast time from frags so it's smoother to use, but I realise this is just a thing i want, not necessarily a thing the class needs.

Having a skill that is only really worth using on proc is not a good thing. That coupled with the ridiculous 33% proc chance that does indeed not proc often enough are two good reasons why the skill needs to be reworked for the PvE side. I was explaining to a buddy that using Crystal Frags can lead to wildly different parses and to drive the point home I hit up the target dummy and just hard cast Crystal Frags for several minutes. I was regularly hitting 8-9 consecutive casts without the proc. My highest dry spell during that demonstration was 12 consecutive casts with no proc. That is no bueno.

Duke_Falcon

StaticWave wrote: »

As a stamsorc main, we NEED Crit Surge lmao. Try playing a stamsorc without Crit Surge and you will see how bad it goes vs pressure builds 🤣

Your probably right about Stam Sorc needing a Crit Surge buff too. I still think procing every 1/3 or every 1/2 second would be good. I had a pretty long duel with a stam sorc the other day, but he kept hiding behind trees to heal. So that's a pretty good indicator they are lacking in the healing department too.

I also like your ideas about something giving us Major Prophecy/Savagery, that would free up one slot for another much needed skill on our bar. I literally tried running Mages Wrath & Crushing Shock w/ Light Attacks & Overload as my only dps skills today just to try and fight nightblades. lol That was hell. My bars looked like this... (its laughable just thinking about it X-D lol, it failed miserably)

ft bar - Lighting Form, Mages Light, Hardened Ward, Streak, Crushing Shock
bc bar - Crit Surge, Dark Conversion, Healing Ward, Bound Armaments, Mages Wrath

I guess Streak is a damage skill, but barely, its more for the utility of a stun.

The Cast Time on Dark Exchange totally has to go. Make the resource return be overtime instead of burst and ditch that cast time, its a killer.

Honestly looking at my bar set up we need room on there for Crystal Frags and Curse. If Lighting Form gave Major Prophecy that would be enough to allow us one of those skills.

CGPsaint

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

ft bar - Lighting Form, Mages Light, Hardened Ward, Streak, Crushing Shock
bc bar - Crit Surge, Dark Conversion, Healing Ward, Bound Armaments, Mages Wrath

Why not place Mages Wrath on the front bar and Boundless Storm on the back bar?

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Every time we Sorcs have been given a moderate buff that other classes didn’t like, I feel as though it was overcorrected to make us weaker than before.

Generally we have been underwater and any brief gasps of air we get are short lived.

MetallicMonk

Realistically sorc is a class that stomps on bad players even when it isn't that good, so I doubt it will ever be on the top of the food chain again.

Overwhelming majority of this game is very bad players, so this would be a nightmare situation for them and zos. The concept of delayed burst has eluded the high IQ playerbase of this game always, it's hacking as far as they're concerned.