No DK nerfs?

Jammy420

SandandStars wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

This is one of the biggest threads right now, I can't imagine it's gone un noticed by the devs..so the question is, why is dk being left to completely over perform in all scenarios compared.to every other class?

I agree with @Syiccal — this is the critical question.

With DK CLEARLY out of balance with other classes for nearly 2 years, what’s the explanation?

No one enjoys going into a battleground that is 60%+ DKs, where the team with the most of them wins.

Has DK’s overpowered status been adressed by a dev team member somewhere? Is it even acknowledged? I am genuinely curious.

They have been tight lipped. Its honestly infuriating how easy it is for dks to be successful , and then as a necro caster I have to break my brain to find a viable setup.

miteba

DK is a very balanced class... in fact it is almost PERFECT to play the game as it was designed for, to be able to have fun with any role you want;
Has cool skills; Great class combos; You can have fun with any setup or weapon chose!

So don't nerf what is already perfect!

The real problem is that they slowly stripped the other classes over the years and in some cases they almost killed the class identity.
An example: Templars. Who "mained" a templar from launch has this feeling; It was not a drastic change, small nerfs here and there, and a bigger nerf in-between; Templars are a perfectly playing class but ... because we adapted a lot.

So, all this to say that, the Developers focus must be on strenghten the other classes, tweak their abilities; Bring other classes close to DK's instead of killing what is already fun and balanced playing with...

Just to say that my main is a templar but i play with all classes, stamina magicka and hybrid, so i have a global understanding of all, like many players here. So i am not DK biased

Turtle_Bot

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Plain jane, masters 2H, plaguebreak, dark convergence, oakensoul and spamming brawler and corrosive.

That's 13 items on a 1 bar setup? Something is wrong with this. Unless you only use 4pc plaguebreak or DC? In which case what's the point?

I count 12 items? Unless I'm missing a monster set called 'Plain Jane'.

Master 2h: 2 items
Plaguebreak: 5 items
Dark Conv: 5 items
Oakensoul: 1 item

2+5+5+1=13

Just a heads up, it's completely possible to make this build unless they were saying they have both 5 piece sets active on both bars all the time.

front bar = masters 2H
back bar = dark convergence 2 piece
1 ring = oakensoul
2 other jewelry = 2 piece dark convergence
5 body pieces = plaguebreak
1 body piece = dark convergence
1 body piece = spare (trainee maybe)

That's still 7 body pieces, 3 jewelry and 2 slots per weapon, but dark convergence is only fully active on back bar (with only 3 pieces active on front bar) while masters 2h is only active on front bar (and not active at all on back bar).

There's technically 14 slots available if you run a front bar/back bar set-up which allows for the following combination:
monster set = 2 piece
Set 1, front bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
Set 2, back bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
mythic = 1 piece
1 piece spare (typically trainee for increased max health)

BasP

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Plain jane, masters 2H, plaguebreak, dark convergence, oakensoul and spamming brawler and corrosive.

That's 13 items on a 1 bar setup? Something is wrong with this. Unless you only use 4pc plaguebreak or DC? In which case what's the point?

I count 12 items? Unless I'm missing a monster set called 'Plain Jane'.

Master 2h: 2 items
Plaguebreak: 5 items
Dark Conv: 5 items
Oakensoul: 1 item

2+5+5+1=13

Just a heads up, it's completely possible to make this build unless they were saying they have both 5 piece sets active on both bars all the time.

front bar = masters 2H
back bar = dark convergence 2 piece
1 ring = oakensoul
2 other jewelry = 2 piece dark convergence
5 body pieces = plaguebreak
1 body piece = dark convergence
1 body piece = spare (trainee maybe)

That's still 7 body pieces, 3 jewelry and 2 slots per weapon, but dark convergence is only fully active on back bar (with only 3 pieces active on front bar) while masters 2h is only active on front bar (and not active at all on back bar).

There's technically 14 slots available if you run a front bar/back bar set-up which allows for the following combination:
monster set = 2 piece
Set 1, front bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
Set 2, back bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
mythic = 1 piece
1 piece spare (typically trainee for increased max health)

True, but considering you can't swap bars with Oakensoul having Dark Convergence on the back bar would be pretty useless wouldn't it? (Unless I'm missing something.)

Iriidius

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Every time we point out how op DKs are they just get buffed further.

No they dont

BalticBlues wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Necromancers being used as a "bomb" class was outside of the intended scope of play and created a unhealthy play environment.

While Necromancers are dead as bombers now,
the "Carve DK" now is bombing groups in PvP left and right.
This also is "outside of the intended scope of play and creates a unhealthy play environment".

DK bombing is worse than any NB and Necro bombing ever was. There almost is no counterplay.
DKs Ulti "Corrosive Armor" was designed when DK did not have much DPS, but
now with High DPS and ProcSets (Plaguebreak, DC), DKs are BOMBERS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

Onslaught also gives full penetration and burst ulti dmg. Other classes can get same or higher dmg by using onslaught instead of corrosive armor, they only loose defense. Only other usefull skill you get on dk for bombing is inhale and flames of oblivion AOE delayed burst, but inhale was worst burst skill of all classes(maybe better than purifying light and sometimes used now, but before they nerfed dots nobody used it). You can use carve with onslaught and deep fissure on warden, but there is not really a use for full penetration because warden gets up to 11.5k penetration from balorgh, 6k from sharpened maul and 9k armor reduce from deep fissure, 27k alltogether, so dawnbreaker is better.
Necro could also combine blastbones and graveyard(at least before nerf) with onslaught and master carve, but they prefered combining it with fleshattro and spin2win/shock ring.
NBs can use onslaught and master carve with their crit dmg passives too, but they prefer bombing with soultheter and spin2win/drawessensse.
Sorc and templar could do it too.
A friend of me already used master2hDK before and switchet to master2h NB now, I used Master2h on NB bomber and Stamden too sometimes, Lucacash has a build video for onslaught NB bomber(no carve, penetration of balorg wasted, maybe better use it with oakensoul, sea serpent, molag kena or other set), another friend uses master2h warden, most DDs in Ballgroups are Stamdens with spin2win.

Bleakz wrote: »

i read on here someone saying to spilt the offensive and defensive parts of corrosive between the 2 morphs of it, and that sounds fantastic

and i also completely agree with nerfing the mag and stam return from battle roar, if the class had less sustain it would be forced to cut back on damage/healing potential significantly to continue to try to play how it does now or people would have to play the class a lot more efficiently

When you remove defense from corrosive than its worse than onslaught and not worth using anymore. Corrosive armor and battle roar already existet long before dk got meta and never were a problem. Battle roar only got slightly buffed to give 50 insteat of 46 ressoursses per ultimate back and use ultimate consumed rather than ultimate spent, but as dk you probably use your ultimates as often as possible. Other dk sustain passives already got nerfed.

Lucifer9th wrote: »

More than half cyrodill is filled with DK bomber, just because of 1 unfair ultimate, the corrosive armor
futhermore, sustain is dk weakness but they have strong passives about sustain and cheap cost on some skills

Do I understand it right that you claim more than 50% of Cyrodiils population are dk bombers are dks? On Pc EU less than a quarter of players are dks and only a minority of them are bombers. Most players In Cyrodiil are Zerglings, they only play when they outnumber their enemys so much they cant loose/the enemys cant win, hate bombers and would never play one themselves because it is a diffucult, challenging and risky playstile where you often get killed.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just came in here and read the last few pages. You can really tell something is something this game when it's on live and pretty much all the posts agree.

At this point it's just laughable how overtuned the DK is right now and then they go and add another buff *scratches head*.

I can't even with you right now ZOS, I just can't even

You can also see almost noone plays this class or has friends playing this class because otherwise they would defend this class. If more than half of Cyrodiils were dks they would probably also be more than half comments in this forum but they arent.

Lucifer9th

Onslaught gives the penetration equal of the defense of the "targeted enemy" and only for 5 secondes (and force you to run 2h handed weapon)
Corosive armor gives 100 000 penetration (full penetration against ALL target) for more than the double duration of onslaught's penetration and it's really the aspect of defense of corosive armor which make dk bomber viable, absurd and easy to play

TechMaybeHic

I think it used to be that onslaughts penetration was actually capped at 20k resists as well.

Not to mention you have to hit a Target so, while corrosive is corrosive>pull>brawler for a bomb; onslaught would be pull>onslaught>brawler. And as is; onslaught has not been used because it's telegraphed and a miss means you get nothing. Corrosive you get it no matter what.

So sounds perfectly reasonable that corrosive to be balanced with onslaught should be offense only and reduced from 10 seconds to 5 seconds and it still would be the better ultimate

Turtle_Bot

BasP wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Plain jane, masters 2H, plaguebreak, dark convergence, oakensoul and spamming brawler and corrosive.

That's 13 items on a 1 bar setup? Something is wrong with this. Unless you only use 4pc plaguebreak or DC? In which case what's the point?

I count 12 items? Unless I'm missing a monster set called 'Plain Jane'.

Master 2h: 2 items
Plaguebreak: 5 items
Dark Conv: 5 items
Oakensoul: 1 item

2+5+5+1=13

Just a heads up, it's completely possible to make this build unless they were saying they have both 5 piece sets active on both bars all the time.

front bar = masters 2H
back bar = dark convergence 2 piece
1 ring = oakensoul
2 other jewelry = 2 piece dark convergence
5 body pieces = plaguebreak
1 body piece = dark convergence
1 body piece = spare (trainee maybe)

That's still 7 body pieces, 3 jewelry and 2 slots per weapon, but dark convergence is only fully active on back bar (with only 3 pieces active on front bar) while masters 2h is only active on front bar (and not active at all on back bar).

There's technically 14 slots available if you run a front bar/back bar set-up which allows for the following combination:
monster set = 2 piece
Set 1, front bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
Set 2, back bar = 2 piece weapons + 3 piece body or jewelry (5 total)
mythic = 1 piece
1 piece spare (typically trainee for increased max health)

True, but considering you can't swap bars with Oakensoul having Dark Convergence on the back bar would be pretty useless wouldn't it? (Unless I'm missing something.)

I missed that, my bad, you're right

Jammy420

Iriidius wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Every time we point out how op DKs are they just get buffed further.

No they dont

BalticBlues wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Necromancers being used as a "bomb" class was outside of the intended scope of play and created a unhealthy play environment.

While Necromancers are dead as bombers now,
the "Carve DK" now is bombing groups in PvP left and right.
This also is "outside of the intended scope of play and creates a unhealthy play environment".

DK bombing is worse than any NB and Necro bombing ever was. There almost is no counterplay.
DKs Ulti "Corrosive Armor" was designed when DK did not have much DPS, but
now with High DPS and ProcSets (Plaguebreak, DC), DKs are BOMBERS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

Onslaught also gives full penetration and burst ulti dmg. Other classes can get same or higher dmg by using onslaught instead of corrosive armor, they only loose defense. Only other usefull skill you get on dk for bombing is inhale and flames of oblivion AOE delayed burst, but inhale was worst burst skill of all classes(maybe better than purifying light and sometimes used now, but before they nerfed dots nobody used it). You can use carve with onslaught and deep fissure on warden, but there is not really a use for full penetration because warden gets up to 11.5k penetration from balorgh, 6k from sharpened maul and 9k armor reduce from deep fissure, 27k alltogether, so dawnbreaker is better.
Necro could also combine blastbones and graveyard(at least before nerf) with onslaught and master carve, but they prefered combining it with fleshattro and spin2win/shock ring.
NBs can use onslaught and master carve with their crit dmg passives too, but they prefer bombing with soultheter and spin2win/drawessensse.
Sorc and templar could do it too.
A friend of me already used master2hDK before and switchet to master2h NB now, I used Master2h on NB bomber and Stamden too sometimes, Lucacash has a build video for onslaught NB bomber(no carve, penetration of balorg wasted, maybe better use it with oakensoul, sea serpent, molag kena or other set), another friend uses master2h warden, most DDs in Ballgroups are Stamdens with spin2win.

Bleakz wrote: »

i read on here someone saying to spilt the offensive and defensive parts of corrosive between the 2 morphs of it, and that sounds fantastic

and i also completely agree with nerfing the mag and stam return from battle roar, if the class had less sustain it would be forced to cut back on damage/healing potential significantly to continue to try to play how it does now or people would have to play the class a lot more efficiently

When you remove defense from corrosive than its worse than onslaught and not worth using anymore. Corrosive armor and battle roar already existet long before dk got meta and never were a problem. Battle roar only got slightly buffed to give 50 insteat of 46 ressoursses per ultimate back and use ultimate consumed rather than ultimate spent, but as dk you probably use your ultimates as often as possible. Other dk sustain passives already got nerfed.

Lucifer9th wrote: »

More than half cyrodill is filled with DK bomber, just because of 1 unfair ultimate, the corrosive armor
futhermore, sustain is dk weakness but they have strong passives about sustain and cheap cost on some skills

Do I understand it right that you claim more than 50% of Cyrodiils population are dk bombers are dks? On Pc EU less than a quarter of players are dks and only a minority of them are bombers. Most players In Cyrodiil are Zerglings, they only play when they outnumber their enemys so much they cant loose/the enemys cant win, hate bombers and would never play one themselves because it is a diffucult, challenging and risky playstile where you often get killed.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just came in here and read the last few pages. You can really tell something is something this game when it's on live and pretty much all the posts agree.

At this point it's just laughable how overtuned the DK is right now and then they go and add another buff *scratches head*.

I can't even with you right now ZOS, I just can't even

You can also see almost noone plays this class or has friends playing this class because otherwise they would defend this class. If more than half of Cyrodiils were dks they would probably also be more than half comments in this forum but they arent.

I dont know which cyro you are playing, but all I see is swirling pink aoes every 5 seconds, and dks everywhere. This seems like class bias to me tbh.

Iriidius

Maybe you want to see DKs everywhere because you consider them OP and have an anti DK bias. When I analyze ranklists in Cyrodiil I find more NBs and Sorcs than DKs. They are very popular in Zergs.

Iriidius

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

If I look at top 100 minimum ap of every class in Blackreach PC EU it is something like:
1. sorcerer 1050k
2. nb 960k
3. dk 920k
4. templar 650k
5. warden 600k
6. nekro 340k
DK is only 3rd popular class, warden is somehow unpopular despite beeing good, seems like dlc classes are still less popular after 4/6 years, sorc is somehow on top despite beeing considered a bsd class.

Sorry, did you just pick the lowest ap of each class in the top 100 in the campaign? If so this certainly doesn't give you even a hint of how popular each class is. It's also a really weird statistics that doesn't really tell you anything. Why not simply count how many of each class are in the top 100?

No, I used the ap gained by the player with the 100. most ap gained this campaign per class of all alliances combined. Results were out of memory from a few days ago, now they are
1. sorcerer 1100876
2. nb 994278 (987627)
3. dk 993649 (980k)
4. templar 729514
5. warden 672671
6. necromant 326822

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 27 sorcerer, 20 nbs, 18 dks, 15 warden, 12 templar and 8 necros.

looking on grey hos they are
1. nb 1686118
2. sorcerer 1466718
3. dk 1466547
4. warden 1342330
5. templar 1102611
6. nekromant 468592

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 20 sorcerer, 24 nbs, 25 dks, 12 warden, 14 templar and 5 necros.

on Ravenwatch it is
1. sorcerer 528417
2. dk 493068
3. templar 465014
4. warden 400514
5. nb 324263
6. nekro 120375

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 21 sorcerer, 17 nbs, 19 dks, 15 warden, 24 templar and 4 necros.

AP "earnt" is a very bad indicator of how a class is performing. A couple of campaigns ago in the middle of U36/37 where plar had zero damage, it was always miles ahead of the other classes thanks to boosting, and how the campaign was playing out (only 1 faction was actually playing the campaign at this point). Does this mean that plar was actually OP back then or was it outside factors affecting the data that was causing it to be ontop for multiple campaigns in a row.

As for sorcerer, it's always been one of the most popular classes so when the few buffs were announced for U37, it was only natural that players would go back to it to try it out again. Doesn't mean they've done any good on it, especially when you can get that amount of AP from leaching AP ticks, repairing walls and throwing a random heal out during a fight thanks to the way AP is calculated.

I dont compare ap of first player of every class but ap of 100th player of every class. 100 players is a pretty big sample compared to number of players in campaign and almost everyone playing regulary should get in top 100, so 1 player boosting ap shouldnt make big difference or do you want to tell me that whole top 100 of templars boosted ap?

Jammy420

Iriidius wrote: »

Maybe you want to see DKs everywhere because you consider them OP and have an anti DK bias. When I analyze ranklists in Cyrodiil I find more NBs and Sorcs than DKs. They are very popular in Zergs.

The top ten are not the majority by a long shot when there are thousands of cyro players.

And no, I have 2 DKs, I simply refuse to use them because they are so busted right now.

PrincessOfThieves

The whole idea that the game should be balanced around 0.0001% of the top players is ridiculous in my opinion.

antihero_kazuma

How about needing DKs to the point where they nerfed templars a couple of patches ago?

Cloudrest

Corrosive is simply overperforming, and there's no other way to put it. It is, hands down, the best ultimate in the game; offering high mitigation, high damage through maximum penetration (allowing DK's to run 7-8k+ weapon damage and 0 penetration with no downside), and free sustain through DK's Battle Roar passive, which also allows DK to run minimal sustain with no downside.

Corrosive Armor needs to offer penetration with no mitigation, and Magma Shell needs to offer mitigation with no penetration. Period. You can't have an ultimate that does both. If Corrosive is nerfed, then DK will be reasonably balanced-- if a bit still on the strong side, but atm they're by far the best class in PvP due to that single ultimate.

I'd love to see some power shifted back into Leap as it's such an iconic skill, too.

Vaqual

The only other ultimate besides corrosive that offers such a high level of offensive and defensive value is the vamp transformation, but at least you are locked out of regaining ult for the entire duration (+higher base cost). Yes you can increase the uptime of this ult, but that comes at a massive opportunity cost.
If corrosive had a lower uptime the power could be justified, but in its current state it is overpowered.

mmtaniac

I would like to see templar ultimate that grant me op buff for 10second and invicibility. Right now i must choose heal or kill. DK should choose too but right now they just ultimate and ta dah get heal always. they don't need to choose they have everything always. DK have reset button. Dk - Hmm my hp is low and other resources too i just ultimate and whole bars full he's reseted. Battle roar is just too strong should be changed or drastically nerfed. dk should struggle with at least one thing. Every class should have weak spot. Templar weak spot is his weak damage. Execute ability doesn't count if you can't reduce enemy health to 50% first. People will say l2p and i say ok but it doesn't matter you will still play dk because his op. Learning means nothing if you are at limits of you class and you do everything with it. Ok i can do something better always but still ,on dk you just walk and enemies die before you.

Jammy420

mmtaniac wrote: »

I would like to see templar ultimate that grant me op buff for 10second and invicibility. Right now i must choose heal or kill. DK should choose too but right now they just ultimate and ta dah get heal always. they don't need to choose they have everything always. DK have reset button. Dk - Hmm my hp is low and other resources too i just ultimate and whole bars full he's reseted. Battle roar is just too strong should be changed or drastically nerfed. dk should struggle with at least one thing. Every class should have weak spot. Templar weak spot is his weak damage. Execute ability doesn't count if you can't reduce enemy health to 50% first. People will say l2p and i say ok but it doesn't matter you will still play dk because his op. Learning means nothing if you are at limits of you class and you do everything with it. Ok i can do something better always but still ,on dk you just walk and enemies die before you.

Necro too. Its telling when you get whispers from people who are angry their broken dk builds arent able to kill you instantly. I must obviously be cheating

Iriidius

Jammy420 wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Maybe you want to see DKs everywhere because you consider them OP and have an anti DK bias. When I analyze ranklists in Cyrodiil I find more NBs and Sorcs than DKs. They are very popular in Zergs.

The top ten are not the majority by a long shot when there are thousands of cyro players.

And no, I have 2 DKs, I simply refuse to use them because they are so busted right now.

The top 100 players of every class is not a small minority of Cyrodiil population, you need less than a million ap get in top 100 of your class at the end of the month, you easily get this when you play for a few hours a month.

StaticWave

DK is overpowered, but a lot of people don't think so, so there's a simple test that everyone can do:

1) Find a DK main and a non-DK main. Both players need to be at least semi-experienced in their class (as in they know the offensive combos and how to play defensive on their respective class)
2) Both of them must also not be experienced in each other's class (otherwise the test wouldn't be accurate)
3) Have 2 players swap classes and duel each other

The DK main will duel using the non-DK main's class, while the non-DK main will duel using the DK main's class. If the non-DK main can easily kill the DK main by playing a DK, then the class is clearly overpowered. The only hard part of this test is knowing whether both players are semi-experienced or not.

Or, we can just accept that DK is in fact, overpowered. I would consider myself an experienced stamsorc main (participated in dueling tourneys with high placement, 5-star Alliance Rank, high MMR BG), yet even an average DK will still give me trouble.

You can almost tell a good DK from an average DK simply by how much pressure they have. A good DK will give you no breathing room, while an average DK maybe able to land a combo on you, but they can't follow up.

StaticWave

Iriidius wrote: »

When you remove defense from corrosive than its worse than onslaught and not worth using anymore

Worse than Onslaught? I think you are exaggerating too much.

Nerfing the defense of Corrosive will still make it better than Onslaught simply because Corrosive lasts 5s longer, doesn't require a target, doesn't miss, and can be used with any weapon combination.

It's like saying Mara's Balm shouldn't be nerfed because it would be worse than Wyrd Tree's Blessing. A nerfed Mara's Balm is still better than Wyrd Tree lol.

Slot Magma Armor then if you want the defense. Nobody is picking Magma Armor or Onslaught over Corrosive. Why would they when Corrosive offers the value of Onslaught AND Magma Armor? That alone is reason to nerf this ability lol.

ksbrugh

DK will not be nerfed for the foreseeable future because of update35. Zos knows that DK is the most popular class in the game I would say utilizing 60% or more of people main tune in pvp or pve.

Now imagine the backlash of a major nerf to the most popular class in the game. Zos knows after the outcry from the playing public from update 35 this will go over like a dog in a cat race. Chaos would ensue immediately.

Believe it or not zos is still playing clean up. I'm not say it's wrong or right Zos has a vision for their game. Nerfing DK at this moment would be a great disturbance in the force causing unneeded backlash at this time. Necrom is most likely a sorry not sorry from Zos to hopefully address past issues and to calm existing ones.

My conclusion.
Just start playing a DK and bring along a warden buddy for big dumb heals and a 5-piece heavy NB with refreshing path and soul together. And May the force be with you.

Turtle_Bot

Iriidius wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

If I look at top 100 minimum ap of every class in Blackreach PC EU it is something like:
1. sorcerer 1050k
2. nb 960k
3. dk 920k
4. templar 650k
5. warden 600k
6. nekro 340k
DK is only 3rd popular class, warden is somehow unpopular despite beeing good, seems like dlc classes are still less popular after 4/6 years, sorc is somehow on top despite beeing considered a bsd class.

Sorry, did you just pick the lowest ap of each class in the top 100 in the campaign? If so this certainly doesn't give you even a hint of how popular each class is. It's also a really weird statistics that doesn't really tell you anything. Why not simply count how many of each class are in the top 100?

No, I used the ap gained by the player with the 100. most ap gained this campaign per class of all alliances combined. Results were out of memory from a few days ago, now they are
1. sorcerer 1100876
2. nb 994278 (987627)
3. dk 993649 (980k)
4. templar 729514
5. warden 672671
6. necromant 326822

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 27 sorcerer, 20 nbs, 18 dks, 15 warden, 12 templar and 8 necros.

looking on grey hos they are
1. nb 1686118
2. sorcerer 1466718
3. dk 1466547
4. warden 1342330
5. templar 1102611
6. nekromant 468592

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 20 sorcerer, 24 nbs, 25 dks, 12 warden, 14 templar and 5 necros.

on Ravenwatch it is
1. sorcerer 528417
2. dk 493068
3. templar 465014
4. warden 400514
5. nb 324263
6. nekro 120375

If i look how many of each class are in top 100 of all, it is 21 sorcerer, 17 nbs, 19 dks, 15 warden, 24 templar and 4 necros.

AP "earnt" is a very bad indicator of how a class is performing. A couple of campaigns ago in the middle of U36/37 where plar had zero damage, it was always miles ahead of the other classes thanks to boosting, and how the campaign was playing out (only 1 faction was actually playing the campaign at this point). Does this mean that plar was actually OP back then or was it outside factors affecting the data that was causing it to be ontop for multiple campaigns in a row.

As for sorcerer, it's always been one of the most popular classes so when the few buffs were announced for U37, it was only natural that players would go back to it to try it out again. Doesn't mean they've done any good on it, especially when you can get that amount of AP from leaching AP ticks, repairing walls and throwing a random heal out during a fight thanks to the way AP is calculated.

I dont compare ap of first player of every class but ap of 100th player of every class. 100 players is a pretty big sample compared to number of players in campaign and almost everyone playing regulary should get in top 100, so 1 player boosting ap shouldnt make big difference or do you want to tell me that whole top 100 of templars boosted ap?

Again, I'm not saying that your method is wrong, I am saying that the metric (AP earnt) that you are basing your results on is not a good indicator of how a class performs in PvP. I could follow a zerg PvDoor the map on a necro (generally agreed to be the worst class currently) and still be in the top 100 of AP earnt very easily because the amount of AP for doing different things in Cyrodiil is different and the amount varies greatly between them.

Doing PvD and taking the map at night combined with leaching a few defense ticks easily puts players into or around the top 100, especially doing it consistently and you don't have to fight any players at all to get that, let alone perform well in PvP.

Meanwhile fighting in outnumbered situations either solo or in a small group earns you very little AP unless you're deliberately following the zerg around leeching the ticks they get from taking keeps around the map. Taking and holding resources by yourself or trying to get outnumbered fights around keeps (which requires a lot more inherent overall class strength alongside individual skill to do well at) nets you very little AP compared to following the zerg around, so those players, despite being much higher skill level and likely on the best classes will be very unlikely to be anywhere near the top of the AP earnt lists because the activities they do in Cyrodiil means they naturally earn far less AP than someone who doesn't PvP at all and only follows the PvD zerg taking the map and leeches defense ticks by hiding inside or lying dead on the floor until the battle is over, even if they were to play daily.

If it was possible to see all the numbers for classes in cyrodiil, what they did to earn their AP and AP was based on metrics that involved actually fighting other players, then sure you could argue for AP to be used to determine if a class is good or not, but we don't have access to that data (and likely never will) and it's doubtful that ZOS would ever change how AP is earnt to be based on actually fighting other players instead of following the zerg taking the map, leeching the ticks.

What your metric (AP earnt) also doesn't take into account is buff bias, popularity and laziness. Sorcs got a slight buff in U37, so naturally there is going to be more sorcs around as players try them out again to see if they are any good or not and most won't bother to switch back so they just stay on their sorcs until the campaign ends. Neither of these prove the class is top tier, just that its a popular class that got a buff recently.

Turtle_Bot

Jammy420 wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

I would like to see templar ultimate that grant me op buff for 10second and invicibility. Right now i must choose heal or kill. DK should choose too but right now they just ultimate and ta dah get heal always. they don't need to choose they have everything always. DK have reset button. Dk - Hmm my hp is low and other resources too i just ultimate and whole bars full he's reseted. Battle roar is just too strong should be changed or drastically nerfed. dk should struggle with at least one thing. Every class should have weak spot. Templar weak spot is his weak damage. Execute ability doesn't count if you can't reduce enemy health to 50% first. People will say l2p and i say ok but it doesn't matter you will still play dk because his op. Learning means nothing if you are at limits of you class and you do everything with it. Ok i can do something better always but still ,on dk you just walk and enemies die before you.

Necro too. Its telling when you get whispers from people who are angry their broken dk builds arent able to kill you instantly. I must obviously be cheating

This with my magsorc too. How dare my magsorc not instantly die to a DK.

BlindingBright

Jammy420 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

This is one of the biggest threads right now, I can't imagine it's gone un noticed by the devs..so the question is, why is dk being left to completely over perform in all scenarios compared.to every other class?

I agree with @Syiccal — this is the critical question.

With DK CLEARLY out of balance with other classes for nearly 2 years, what’s the explanation?

No one enjoys going into a battleground that is 60%+ DKs, where the team with the most of them wins.

Has DK’s overpowered status been adressed by a dev team member somewhere? Is it even acknowledged? I am genuinely curious.

They have been tight lipped. Its honestly infuriating how easy it is for dks to be successful , and then as a necro caster I have to break my brain to find a viable setup.

As a necro main... you just look on at other classes that are easier to play and output the same/better damage and wonder... Then you look at the DK and wonder why ZoS hates you personally. Almost every patch this past year has chipped away at the necro, which was intended to be a high skill level, high reward class- now a high skill level gets you to the same damage cap as everyone else... except DK.

Meanwhile.... DK Standard/Corrosive & Talons go BRRRRRRRR
Sorc flappy birds go flappy flap and crystals go BSSSHHHHH
Templar Jabs and Beam baby, still fairly viable- and more so than necro, still easy rotation.
Nightblade still bursty boi in pvp, but also suffering a bit like necro in putting out DPS consistently even with high level of play in pve.
Wardens... they aiiight. They're where DK's should be, thematic, stronk, fun- but not too OP.
Arcanist? Wap, Wap, Wap- FIRING MAAH LAAAHHHZEERRRRR. It's a lot of beaming, but, you you can whip and nae-nae between it easily.
Necros? We have a drunk blastbones, it's weave, weave, blastbones baby... I loved my necro pre-update 35, after several updates of nerfs(little by little, chipping away) it's got me looking at DK and being envious of their ease of use and hard hitting toolkit.

Its easy to miss/not directly understand... but increasing melee range of every class from 5m to 7m in line with the DK, which is a stealth nerf to DK and a buff to every other class.. will help equalize the playing field. IMHO ZoS should look to BUFF these other classes vs nerfing DK directly like they have with this MASSIVE yet understated change.

ebix_

Every one being vamp3 also contributes to DKs performance.
it dosent make sense to me why one class should have 13% free damage.

JerBearESO

Stop suggesting removing the defense of corrosive. That's the core function of the ult. It just needs to actually corrode armor rather than immediately penetrate all. Make it have stacking armor shred ties to it's DoT, like 1k per tick, but make that debuff have a brief, maybe 3 second, duration. That way it provides shred, but can be counterplayed

Jammy420

Iriidius wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Maybe you want to see DKs everywhere because you consider them OP and have an anti DK bias. When I analyze ranklists in Cyrodiil I find more NBs and Sorcs than DKs. They are very popular in Zergs.

The top ten are not the majority by a long shot when there are thousands of cyro players.

And no, I have 2 DKs, I simply refuse to use them because they are so busted right now.

The top 100 players of every class is not a small minority of Cyrodiil population, you need less than a million ap get in top 100 of your class at the end of the month, you easily get this when you play for a few hours a month.

AP means nothing, considering you have ap trading going on on Grayhost and Blackreach on PC EU. Look, everyone knows dks are being used excessively, if you don't want to believe it, I really dont care.

Jammy420

BlindingBright wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

This is one of the biggest threads right now, I can't imagine it's gone un noticed by the devs..so the question is, why is dk being left to completely over perform in all scenarios compared.to every other class?

I agree with @Syiccal — this is the critical question.

With DK CLEARLY out of balance with other classes for nearly 2 years, what’s the explanation?

No one enjoys going into a battleground that is 60%+ DKs, where the team with the most of them wins.

Has DK’s overpowered status been adressed by a dev team member somewhere? Is it even acknowledged? I am genuinely curious.

They have been tight lipped. Its honestly infuriating how easy it is for dks to be successful , and then as a necro caster I have to break my brain to find a viable setup.

As a necro main... you just look on at other classes that are easier to play and output the same/better damage and wonder... Then you look at the DK and wonder why ZoS hates you personally. Almost every patch this past year has chipped away at the necro, which was intended to be a high skill level, high reward class- now a high skill level gets you to the same damage cap as everyone else... except DK.

Meanwhile.... DK Standard/Corrosive & Talons go BRRRRRRRR
Sorc flappy birds go flappy flap and crystals go BSSSHHHHH
Templar Jabs and Beam baby, still fairly viable- and more so than necro, still easy rotation.
Nightblade still bursty boi in pvp, but also suffering a bit like necro in putting out DPS consistently even with high level of play in pve.
Wardens... they aiiight. They're where DK's should be, thematic, stronk, fun- but not too OP.
Arcanist? Wap, Wap, Wap- FIRING MAAH LAAAHHHZEERRRRR. It's a lot of beaming, but, you you can whip and nae-nae between it easily.
Necros? We have a drunk blastbones, it's weave, weave, blastbones baby... I loved my necro pre-update 35, after several updates of nerfs(little by little, chipping away) it's got me looking at DK and being envious of their ease of use and hard hitting toolkit.

Its easy to miss/not directly understand... but increasing melee range of every class from 5m to 7m in line with the DK, which is a stealth nerf to DK and a buff to every other class.. will help equalize the playing field. IMHO ZoS should look to BUFF these other classes vs nerfing DK directly like they have with this MASSIVE yet understated change.

That 7 meter range is gonna hurt necros again, I realised yesterday, cuz people will be able to fight us outside our totem.

Jammy420

JerBearESO wrote: »

Stop suggesting removing the defense of corrosive. That's the core function of the ult. It just needs to actually corrode armor rather than immediately penetrate all. Make it have stacking armor shred ties to it's DoT, like 1k per tick, but make that debuff have a brief, maybe 3 second, duration. That way it provides shred, but can be counterplayed

With that catastrophic hitbox issues in this game, it really wouldnt.