is eso stealing fanart?

Jaraal

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

That is a good point, and I'm no lawyer.... but continuing to profit from the situation before a resolution has been announced is not a good look.

Amottica

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

What settlement is needed? A fan appropriated Zenimax IP in creating multiple drawings and even stated as much.

What will be interesting, since none of us are attorneys that specialize in such matters, is the SCOTUS ruling that will come out by the end of next month related to works of art as it will set a firm rule in place in the jurisdiction Zenimax operates in.

Again, I am not suggesting Zenimax did right. They should have acknowledged the fan's drawings which IIRC, is what the fan suggested should have happened.

Soarora

Amottica wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

What settlement is needed? A fan appropriated Zenimax IP in creating multiple drawings and even stated as much.

What will be interesting, since none of us are attorneys that specialize in such matters, is the SCOTUS ruling that will come out by the end of next month related to works of art as it will set a firm rule in place in the jurisdiction Zenimax operates in.

Again, I am not suggesting Zenimax did right. They should have acknowledged the fan's drawings which IIRC, is what the fan suggested should have happened.

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know. And Morrowind—along with the Elder Scrolls IP as a whole—belongs to Bethesda. I know there are two Zenimaxes, the one who develops ESO and the parent company, but is that enough connection to use a work made in fanart of a different game?

kumenit_taeynav

Soarora wrote: »

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know.

screen cap of the original fanart post from relan daevath from back in 2020. the second tag is teso

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

What settlement is needed? A fan appropriated Zenimax IP in creating multiple drawings and even stated as much.

What will be interesting, since none of us are attorneys that specialize in such matters, is the SCOTUS ruling that will come out by the end of next month related to works of art as it will set a firm rule in place in the jurisdiction Zenimax operates in.

Again, I am not suggesting Zenimax did right. They should have acknowledged the fan's drawings which IIRC, is what the fan suggested should have happened.

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know. And Morrowind—along with the Elder Scrolls IP as a whole—belongs to Bethesda. I know there are two Zenimaxes, the one who develops ESO and the parent company, but is that enough connection to use a work made in fanart of a different game?

Here is an interesting thing to think about. None of us are attorneys at law specializing in art. Also, this is not fan art of a different game as the characters the fan noted are ESO characters as well as TES characters. It also would be enough since Zenimax owns the rights to those characters.

That is something I noted and even that the real experts, the ones who make the final decision on legal matters, will be creating a precedent that could go a long way in deciding such matters.

I also noted that they should have at least acknowledged the artist which they did not.

Jaraal

Amottica wrote: »

I also noted that they should have at least acknowledged the artist which they did not.

And ZOS admitted as much and said they were working on a resolution with the artist. But it's interesting that it's business as usual, since the artwork is still in the crown store and bringing in profits.

So, what happens if the artist doesn't agree to the offered resolution? Are they entitled to at least a share of the profits from continued use of their artwork without permission (or credit?)

Elsonso

Soarora wrote: »

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know. And Morrowind—along with the Elder Scrolls IP as a whole—belongs to Bethesda. I know there are two Zenimaxes, the one who develops ESO and the parent company, but is that enough connection to use a work made in fanart of a different game?

I believe the Elder Scrolls IP is owned by Zenimax Media, likely managed by Bethesda. This is based on who owns the trademarks.

As a non-lawyer, my expectation is that it is Zenimax Media that is involved, either directly or through an intermediary, in talks with the artist. That is also why I doubt ZOS is going to say anything in here. They are not the ones deciding these things. That is also why I think the item is still listed. ZOS has not been instructed to remove it by The Powers That Be. As a non-lawyer, I expect it will stay there until it is deemed that it infringes on the work of the artist _and_ the resolution with the artist requires that it be removed. I don't expect that the latter will happen.

Soarora

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

What settlement is needed? A fan appropriated Zenimax IP in creating multiple drawings and even stated as much.

What will be interesting, since none of us are attorneys that specialize in such matters, is the SCOTUS ruling that will come out by the end of next month related to works of art as it will set a firm rule in place in the jurisdiction Zenimax operates in.

Again, I am not suggesting Zenimax did right. They should have acknowledged the fan's drawings which IIRC, is what the fan suggested should have happened.

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know. And Morrowind—along with the Elder Scrolls IP as a whole—belongs to Bethesda. I know there are two Zenimaxes, the one who develops ESO and the parent company, but is that enough connection to use a work made in fanart of a different game?

Here is an interesting thing to think about. None of us are attorneys at law specializing in art. Also, this is not fan art of a different game as the characters the fan noted are ESO characters as well as TES characters. It also would be enough since Zenimax owns the rights to those characters.

That is something I noted and even that the real experts, the ones who make the final decision on legal matters, will be creating a precedent that could go a long way in deciding such matters.

I also noted that they should have at least acknowledged the artist which they did not.

You do not need to be so rude, I was just thinking. I wasn’t even directly talking to you, I was commenting on “Zenimax IP” since my understanding is Bethesda owns the IP of TES, ZOS is borrowing it. Makes things confusing to me as to which company owns what.

Thank you @kumenit_taeynav for the correction and @Elsonso for the insight, makes more sense to me now.

Amottica

Jaraal wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I also noted that they should have at least acknowledged the artist which they did not.

And ZOS admitted as much and said they were working on a resolution with the artist. But it's interesting that it's business as usual, since the artwork is still in the crown store and bringing in profits.

So, what happens if the artist doesn't agree to the offered resolution? Are they entitled to at least a share of the profits from continued use of their artwork without permission (or credit?)

Personally, due to the commotion in this thread o do think Zenimax should pull the items. They should go a step farther and and refund the purchase already made as they completely remove them from the game.

Then they should redesign them and put the new ones on the market and be done with this.

As for the legal issues, none of us are experts and many of the opinions here are incorrect. Even then, we are likely to not know how things turn out as we have no right to that information. As such it’s clear Zenimax will not be able to make everyone here happy even though none have a horse in the race.

kumenit_taeynav

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

What happened with this?

I saw from the patch notes that the name is getting updated:

Changed the name and description of the “Mercymother’s Body Art” to “Ode to Clockwork Body Art” to make it more thematically and lore appropriate.

(from this link:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632766/pts-patch-notes-v9-0-2)

Is the artwork still being sold? What about the original artist?

it looks like they plan on keeping it in, theyre just changing the name so at the very least it refers to the correct god

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.

What settlement is needed? A fan appropriated Zenimax IP in creating multiple drawings and even stated as much.

What will be interesting, since none of us are attorneys that specialize in such matters, is the SCOTUS ruling that will come out by the end of next month related to works of art as it will set a firm rule in place in the jurisdiction Zenimax operates in.

Again, I am not suggesting Zenimax did right. They should have acknowledged the fan's drawings which IIRC, is what the fan suggested should have happened.

Here’s an interesting thing to think about: is Zenimax actually able to use the fanart just based on it being Elder Scrolls? Because the fanart wasn’t for ESO, it was for Morrowind as far as I know. And Morrowind—along with the Elder Scrolls IP as a whole—belongs to Bethesda. I know there are two Zenimaxes, the one who develops ESO and the parent company, but is that enough connection to use a work made in fanart of a different game?

Here is an interesting thing to think about. None of us are attorneys at law specializing in art. Also, this is not fan art of a different game as the characters the fan noted are ESO characters as well as TES characters. It also would be enough since Zenimax owns the rights to those characters.

That is something I noted and even that the real experts, the ones who make the final decision on legal matters, will be creating a precedent that could go a long way in deciding such matters.

I also noted that they should have at least acknowledged the artist which they did not.

You do not need to be so rude, I was just thinking. I wasn’t even directly talking to you, I was commenting on “Zenimax IP” since my understanding is Bethesda owns the IP of TES, ZOS is borrowing it. Makes things confusing to me as to which company owns what.

Thank you @kumenit_taeynav for the correction and @Elsonso for the insight, makes more sense to me now.

and I replied noting another interesting thing to think about.

Zenimax owns the copyright on everything TES so it does not matter which TES game the fan was speaking to. Morrowind IP belongs to Zenimax. Bethesda, like Zenimax Online Studios, is a subsidiary of Zenimax. Further, it does not matter which subsidiary owns the copyright.

The thing is, since this is fan art directly attributed to specific TES characters vs just inspired by TES in general the legal situation would likely be different as it would be more of an original work and likely have more protection. However, the fan specifically stated they are drawings of the specific gods, major characters in TES, which shifts things a little.

I think it is great Zenimax is going to offer the fan a reward and consider the issue a closed deal. Anyone who truly objects to any of this has one option and only one option as continuing to support ESO in any manner, including just playing the game for free, is showing full support.

I just renewed my subscription.

This_0ne

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

Amottica

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

This is great to hear. That is pretty special for me that ESO fan.

And yes, it’s unlikely we will hear about other details as it’s none of our business.

Soarora

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

I am actually going to cry, this is fantastic news. Thank you for sharing.

Jaraal

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

That's awesome!

I wonder why ZOS didn't want to say anything about it? Could have gone a long ways towards positive customer relations and corporate image.

Amottica

Jaraal wrote: »

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

That's awesome!

I wonder why ZOS didn't want to say anything about it? Could have gone a long ways towards positive customer relations and corporate image.

Well, they screwed up to start with by not acknowledging the fan so it would appear they were trying to put a coat of paint on a pig if they made a big deal about coming to an agreement with that fan.

Jaimeh

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

This is great news, glad the artist got rightful recognition (and hopefully compensation), and I think it's really cool of ZOS to add their character to the game. All's well that ends well!

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

This_0ne wrote: »

Have some information about this: the artist was added to the credits of the game, also the author's character was added to the game as an NPC in the Necrom chapter https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relan_Daevath , in addition, most likely there were other agreements that were not disclosed

That's awesome!

I wonder why ZOS didn't want to say anything about it? Could have gone a long ways towards positive customer relations and corporate image.

That can go both ways. Out of the minority that would actually care, response would be both approval and outrage. They already ran out a statement saying it was unintended, and that seems a good punctuation for this story. Everything after that is drama.l