is eso stealing fanart?

kumenit_taeynav

@FluffWit i dont really go on these forums that much but i thought itd be a good way to attempt to get the attention of the devs, make other potential artists here aware of the situation in case something similar (either with eso or other games) happens to them, and to spread the situation in hopes an expert can see it and offer advice which could then be passed on to the artist. i thought the Community Creations section would be relevant for these goals. if you check out my profile this is only my 3rd post so far, i dont really know the levels of activity each section gets compared to each other.

Livvy

FluffWit wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Aaaand they've moved this to an obscure board no one uses to try and stop people finding out it happened.

@FluffWit This thread actually started here.

Thanks and sorry. Now I'm wondering how I ended up finding it.... must have been linked on reddit

There was a second thread made in the general section that was closed as a duplicate with a link directing people to this original thread. Possibly how you found it.

Kaibeth

I was getting ready to purchase crowns for the new lighthouse player home. After this came to light, I'm not sure how much more of my money I want ZOS to get ahold of to do things like this. I am appalled.

Guess I'll get that new sim plane after all.

A new low, my friends. A new low. Shape up, ZOS.

Zodiarkslayer

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty much this.

What is interesting about this is the artist actually stated their drawings were of ip owned by Zenimax and that it was fan art. If they had not made reference to ESO and those notable characters within the IP the situation could be very different, but that is not the case.

Also interesting, there is a case before SCOTUS on this very issue but from a much more significant work. We are expecting to hear the findings of the court any day. Warhol Foundation vs Goldsmith.

@Zodiarkslayer and myself are not expressing our opinion but merely pointing of the societal basis that determines if such work is actually original art or if somewhat appropriated another person (or companies) property.

Thank you for such an unbiased and level headed response.
I appreciate this.
All in all I think this is a delicate situation. And being emotional about it can have unforeseen effects for both the creator and for ZOS. Let's just not do drama.

And just to be clear here:
Is the Crown Store tattoo a copy job? - In my opinion yes.
Is it okay to take community content and just publish it?
- From an ethical point of view, definitely not! A clear communication between ZOS and the artist before publication is a matter of decency, in my opinion. And so is giving credit in both ways.
- From a buisiness pov, it is always problematic to use fanart, because it can create justified animosity against the corporation. That can turn into a pretty serious problem for a company whose financial success is dependent on a strong and benevolent community. Management should have established a clear procedure years ago on how to deal with community creations, again, before publication. And clearly communicate that procedure internally, especially for newly hires. That is my opinion, based on my background and experience.
- From a legal perspective, I expect the U.S. law will have problems judging the artist's work as an original work. At least currently. And I am not even positive that ZOS needs his permission to use his work, but that is speculation based on my experience with the topic, rather than my exact knowledge of it. But they probably have to credit him for it. It is a grey area, really. I my opinion, it is best to mediate such things outside a court of law, using a good portion of common sense. And outside of the public, too.

I also want to add that, historically speaking, Zenimax Media (who is the company that holds the entire Elder Scrolls IP, ZOS is a subsidiary) has been very lenient to community creations, if not outright inviting. After all it was the mod community that carried the Elder Scrolls franchise throughout the years and made it such a success. They also have monetised community creations
I know that first hand, as I have been active with the MOD community of Fallout4 (worked on several projects) and also created my own (unpublished) mods for Skyrim SE. CreationKit can be a wonderful tool.

Every modder knows (at least he/she should), that he has no solid copyright to anything he shares with the community, even if he creates the models and textures himself. It is still a grey area.
Actually you will see, that most quality posts on Nexusmods include a lists of credits and disclaimers and there will always be credit to Bethesda.
And Bethesda also stepped in a couple of times when there was a serious monetisation of community content. That sometimes even happened without the creators knowledge.

Aztrias

Yeah this is not ok, besides the art is Sotha Sil not Almalexia

They should have used Almalexia's actual Tattoos from Morrowind instead:

KlauthWarthog

Well, if they are using midjourney, then this is going to continue to happen, since stealing artwork is how midjourney works.

kumenit_taeynav

relan-daevath, the artist in question, has made an update post on tumblr. a valuable read for the situation where its at now

https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714299546043367424/updates

Elsonso

Aztrias wrote: »

They should have used Almalexia's actual Tattoos from Morrowind instead:

Is that flashy enough for the Crown Store, though?

kumenit_taeynav

zos seems obsessed with nostalgia now with all their hype for the Necrom dlc so i think switching the tattoos to Almalexia's original tats would fit into their goals of squeezing in as much nostalgia as humanly possible into the Necrom hype train.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings, as we've removed a few non-constructive comments, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Galadius

Here's to hoping the issue gets resolved in favor of the creator of the fan art.

Flangdoodle

alcoraptor wrote: »

DormBrand wrote: »

However, as the author of the derivative also has copyright on their work, ZOS can't use it without their express permission!

This is not correct. Derivative works can have separate copyright applied to them, but only if there is sufficient new material within them to warrant it - and even then the copyright only applies to the new elements.

The fan art on the original post is clearly titled and attributed to ESO, and there are no original elements to it. All of the characters and symbols exist - and while the style is the artist's, that does not constitute copyrightable original work.

The ToS also does apply. It states:

ZeniMax Owned UGC also includes all Content (other than Game Mods (as defined below)) that You create or develop using Content provided or made available by ZeniMax, including but not limited to Content that You create or develop that is a derivative work of the Content provided or made available by ZeniMax

Yes. Well said. See also Andy Warhol v. Campbell's Soup (and yeah, I know that's not the proper citation or name of the case)

Amottica

Elsonso wrote: »

Animar111 wrote: »

Do you think they will remove the skin from crown store….?

Probably not. They will negotiate something with the creator.

All they need to do is acknowledge the person. After all, that fan artist did not create an original work of art and they even acknowledge that in the post where they originally showed those works.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty much this.

What is interesting about this is the artist actually stated their drawings were of ip owned by Zenimax and that it was fan art. If they had not made reference to ESO and those notable characters within the IP the situation could be very different, but that is not the case.

Also interesting, there is a case before SCOTUS on this very issue but from a much more significant work. We are expecting to hear the findings of the court any day. Warhol Foundation vs Goldsmith.

@Zodiarkslayer and myself are not expressing our opinion but merely pointing of the societal basis that determines if such work is actually original art or if somewhat appropriated another person (or companies) property.

Thank you for such an unbiased and level headed response.
I appreciate this.
All in all I think this is a delicate situation. And being emotional about it can have unforeseen effects for both the creator and for ZOS. Let's just not do drama.

And just to be clear here:
Is the Crown Store tattoo a copy job? - In my opinion yes.
Is it okay to take community content and just publish it?
- From an ethical point of view, definitely not! A clear communication between ZOS and the artist before publication is a matter of decency, in my opinion. And so is giving credit in both ways.
- From a buisiness pov, it is always problematic to use fanart, because it can create justified animosity against the corporation. That can turn into a pretty serious problem for a company whose financial success is dependent on a strong and benevolent community. Management should have established a clear procedure years ago on how to deal with community creations, again, before publication. And clearly communicate that procedure internally, especially for newly hires. That is my opinion, based on my background and experience.
- From a legal perspective, I expect the U.S. law will have problems judging the artist's work as an original work. At least currently. And I am not even positive that ZOS needs his permission to use his work, but that is speculation based on my experience with the topic, rather than my exact knowledge of it. But they probably have to credit him for it. It is a grey area, really. I my opinion, it is best to mediate such things outside a court of law, using a good portion of common sense. And outside of the public, too.

I also want to add that, historically speaking, Zenimax Media (who is the company that holds the entire Elder Scrolls IP, ZOS is a subsidiary) has been very lenient to community creations, if not outright inviting. After all it was the mod community that carried the Elder Scrolls franchise throughout the years and made it such a success. They also have monetised community creations
I know that first hand, as I have been active with the MOD community of Fallout4 (worked on several projects) and also created my own (unpublished) mods for Skyrim SE. CreationKit can be a wonderful tool.

Every modder knows (at least he/she should), that he has no solid copyright to anything he shares with the community, even if he creates the models and textures himself. It is still a grey area.
Actually you will see, that most quality posts on Nexusmods include a lists of credits and disclaimers and there will always be credit to Bethesda.
And Bethesda also stepped in a couple of times when there was a serious monetisation of community content. That sometimes even happened without the creators knowledge.

I agree that Zenimax should have had dialogue before these tattoos were released. It would have been great if they did a story about the artist and which could have allowed that artist to show some of his original work, assuming they have some original work.

The attention would have been great. Hopefully Zenimax learns from this and at least provides credit in such situations.

thejadefalcon

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

[snip]

No, I'm pretty sure we know it's directly copied, because we have eyes and we looked at it. It is a 1:1 copy. No ifs, no buts.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

[snip]

"ZOS is stealing from thousands of artists, not just one!" is not the winning argument you thought it was.

[edited to remove quote]

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Aztrias wrote: »

Yeah this is not ok, besides the art is Sotha Sil not Almalexia

They should have used Almalexia's actual Tattoos from Morrowind instead:

@Aztrias That is also a bit of a "crime" in this situation, not only was someone's art used without permission, the marking is supposed to be themed to Almalexia, but they used the image of Sotha Sil and Vivec's hand symbol?

Why not just use her tattoos, which are some good looking markings I'm sure would be very popular.

merpins

To answer the title question: No, ESO, and Zenimax Online Studio, is not stealing fan artwork. A single person on the ESO art team plagiarized a fan's artwork, passing it off as his, and submitted it. It was approved, accidentally as they probably have to approve a lot of artwork in a short period of time regularly, and it was missed. As a result, if they are confident and know which artist did it (they probably do), that artist will definitely be let go and possibly black listed from the games industry.

Ascarl

merpins wrote: »

To answer the title question: No, ESO, and Zenimax Online Studio, is not stealing fan artwork. A single person on the ESO art team plagiarized a fan's artwork, passing it off as his, and submitted it. It was approved, accidentally as they probably have to approve a lot of artwork in a short period of time regularly, and it was missed. As a result, if they are confident and know which artist did it (they probably do), that artist will definitely be let go and possibly black listed from the games industry.

Can you prove your theory?

Jaraal

Any actual updates on this?

kumenit_taeynav

@Jaraal nothing yet. a couple days ago relan-daevath (the artist in question) said they were in contact with the devs but there hasnt been any updates since.

ItchyTheRat

kumenit_taeynav wrote: »

@Jaraal nothing yet. a couple days ago relan-daevath (the artist in question) said they were in contact with the devs but there hasnt been any updates since.

count on there being a non disclosure to the whole mess

ZOS_Icy

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Forum Rules. Please note that derailing a thread with off-topic or baiting comments will result in the thread being closed.

Thank you for your understanding.

Tevalaur

Is there any update on this?

DragonRacer

Not that I have seen, but I also have to imagine lawyers are involved at this point and whatever the outcome is might not be allowed to be publicly disclosed.

Jaraal

DragonRacer wrote: »

Not that I have seen, but I also have to imagine lawyers are involved at this point and whatever the outcome is might not be allowed to be publicly disclosed.

One would think that entities involved would like to clear the air and remove suspicion and assuage accusations. Obviously details will be omitted, but it would be prudent for both parties to announce that a resolution has been reached.

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Not that I have seen, but I also have to imagine lawyers are involved at this point and whatever the outcome is might not be allowed to be publicly disclosed.

One would think that entities involved would like to clear the air and remove suspicion and assuage accusations. Obviously details will be omitted, but it would be prudent for both parties to announce that a resolution has been reached.

Once this reaches the level of the lawyers, my guess is that everything slows down.

I also have to consider that the most important thing going on is between the studio and the artist. Informing the public is now a secondary concern, if it is any concern at all. If the parties want to share, I am sure they will, but otherwise, I consider that no further information will be freely offered.

BetweenMidgets

What happened with this?

I saw from the patch notes that the name is getting updated:

Changed the name and description of the “Mercymother’s Body Art” to “Ode to Clockwork Body Art” to make it more thematically and lore appropriate.

(from this link:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/632766/pts-patch-notes-v9-0-2)

Is the artwork still being sold? What about the original artist?

kumenit_taeynav

over on pc-na its still in the crate store as Mercymother's Body/Face art.
i did get in contact with Relan more than a week ago and they said they were still talking through it with zos so i guess theyve worked it out and the change just has to go through the pts first

Tevalaur

Over a month later and still no announced resolution? ESO needs to remove this item from the store and stop profiting on something they've admitted an uncredited and uncompensated artist designed.

hrothbern

Tevalaur wrote: »

Over a month later and still no announced resolution? ESO needs to remove this item from the store and stop profiting on something they've admitted an uncredited and uncompensated artist designed.

AFAIK settling is being done at a professional level.

Remaining questions for me are whether this supplier of that stolen art was 1. an independent company/person or an employee and 2. has it happened more with that person or perhaps other persons as well re ZOS

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Tevalaur

hrothbern wrote: »

i see it as bad luck and imo no doubt ZOS will professionalise the way they control this issue in the future.

But it all will take time

Bad luck that it happened "to ZOS"? Maybe. But it's not "bad luck" that the item is still for sale instead of being pulled from the shelves until AFTER a settlement is reached if one can be. ZOS is deliberately profiting off the item's sales while KNOWING they are benefiting from intellectual/creative theft.

And that leaves me not wanting to support them in any way while they continue to act in bad faith. The initial being found to have gotten the art through wrong methods MAY not have been an institutional fault, but the deliberate decision to keep profit on stolen goods going for this long IS THEIR DELIBERATE CHOICE and not one I'm willing to condone.