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is eso stealing fanart?
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Grega✭✭✭✭✭markulrich1966 wrote: »well seems a solution might be approaching.
Copy&paste to avoid screenshot-uploads:
"littleouroboros
Hey, I'm a dev on ESO. I'm not on the player cosmetics team, but I'll definitely reach out to someone about this. Contact me if you'd like to provide an email and name I can refer to."
Source:
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.Edited by Grega on 10 April 2023 04:462 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭See zos is good company who can recognize their mistakes.
This a company people can trust and not try to hide from shame. It's zos artist at fault not all of zos for stealing.markulrich1966 wrote: »well seems a solution might be approaching.
Copy&paste to avoid screenshot-uploads:
"littleouroboros
Hey, I'm a dev on ESO. I'm not on the player cosmetics team, but I'll definitely reach out to someone about this. Contact me if you'd like to provide an email and name I can refer to."
Source:
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
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kumenit_taeynav✭✭✭✭
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
in the original post by the artist where they talk about their stolen art people were already commenting about getting in touch with devs such as Gina over on twitter. i thought id increase the chances of the theft not going ignored by spreading it to another platform7 -
Grega✭✭✭✭✭kumenit_taeynav wrote: »
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
in the original post by the artist where they talk about their stolen art people were already commenting about getting in touch with devs such as Gina over on twitter. i thought id increase the chances of the theft not going ignored by spreading it to another platform
Sure. But you can contact her and wait a few days and see what a response is. It’s not like water is on fire 🤷♂️. Again, I’ve had disputes in the past and didn’t have to resort to contacting and public dirty laundry exposure at the same time. Unless I wanted the company to be hurt publicly. Which hasn’t been the case so far.1 -
markulrich1966✭✭✭✭✭
✭kumenit_taeynav wrote: »
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
in the original post by the artist where they talk about their stolen art people were already commenting about getting in touch with devs such as Gina over on twitter. i thought id increase the chances of the theft not going ignored by spreading it to another platform
you still talk about stealing and theft, despite the offer for communication for clarification.
We actually do NOT know how this tile made it into production.
Fact is, that by trying to create a s-storm instead of starting constructive negociations right from the beginning, the reputation of ZoS is already damaged.
I would not wonder if this would lead to an update in their ToS concerning fanart, with more restrictions to avoid such situations in future.Edited by markulrich1966 on 10 April 2023 04:580 -
kumenit_taeynav✭✭✭✭@Grega
at the very least other artists deserve to know whats going on here as the result of this situation could potentially put their own art at risk of being used without their consent.11 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kumenit_taeynav wrote: »
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
in the original post by the artist where they talk about their stolen art people were already commenting about getting in touch with devs such as Gina over on twitter. i thought id increase the chances of the theft not going ignored by spreading it to another platform
There's history of theft being ignored so it's good to know ZOS is better then that. A company we can trust is a company we can play for decades to come1 -
Gadamlub14_ESO✭✭✭✭markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator. Zenimax does Not have any legal right whatsoever to copypaste someones art and use the mirror tool on it a couple times. if they tried to argue that legally Zenimax would be laughed out of court.20 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator. Zenimax does Not have any legal right whatsoever to copypaste someones art and use the mirror tool on it a couple times. if they tried to argue that legally Zenimax would be laughed out of court.
We would of seen a lot more cases of company's doing it. Ones with far less integrity then zos would do it in heart beat.
I am glad zos is handling this with honestly and openness.2 -
Shagreth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not to *** on the ESO artists, but seeing how this is the first marking I've ever used, I knew something was off. It looked too good. The right response would be to hire the guy.12 -
alcoraptor✭✭✭Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator.
No it wouldn't - the fan art would be considered a derivative work (because the original work is copyrighted Bethesda), and as such all copyright remains with the original author (Bethesda).
Legally, they're 100% in the clear. Morally? Ethically? Perhaps not so much.
Praise Vivec! You were there to stop Alexandra Conele from capturing the coral heart!2 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator. Zenimax does Not have any legal right whatsoever to copypaste someones art and use the mirror tool on it a couple times. if they tried to argue that legally Zenimax would be laughed out of court.
Genuine question: what about the part of the ToS that says player-made derivative works of this IP are “ZeniMax Owned UGC” (user-generated content)?
Obviously moral responsibility is a separate question (I don’t personally agree with taking fan art and selling it without a word), but I am wondering if that part of the ToS means ZeniMax does in fact own any fan art made with this IP.
ETA: ZeniMax in the ToS is ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries and affiliates, so it would cover both Bethesda and ZOS.Edited by virtus753 on 10 April 2023 06:150 -
alcoraptor✭✭✭Furthermore, the ToS states that ZoS has all rights to do whatever they want with any and all user generated contentTo the fullest extent permitted by law, You hereby expressly grant (or You warrant that the owner of Your UGC has expressly granted) to ZeniMax and its licensors, licensees, and designees a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable (through multiple tiers of sublicensees) right and license to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with Your UGC in all formats and media, whether existing now or in the future, and You agree not to assert or enforce any moral rights or similar rights You may have which may now or may hereafter be recognized, and all ancillary and subsidiary rights, in any languages now known or not currently known.Praise Vivec! You were there to stop Alexandra Conele from capturing the coral heart!0
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FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator. Zenimax does Not have any legal right whatsoever to copypaste someones art and use the mirror tool on it a couple times. if they tried to argue that legally Zenimax would be laughed out of court.
Genuine question: what about the part of the ToS that says player-made derivative works of this IP are “ZeniMax Owned UGC” (user-generated content)?
Obviously moral responsibility is a separate question (I don’t personally agree with taking fan art and selling it without a word), but I am wondering if that part of the ToS means ZeniMax does in fact own any fan art made with this IP.
ETA: ZeniMax in the ToS is ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries and affiliates, so it would cover both Bethesda and ZOS.
Tos doesn't always hold up in courts. It's just pretty paper to cover bases. Many times they failed in history.
If this went to courts . I doubt zos would win and even if they did their reputation would be gone.
It's illegal and would be the nightmare wow wants to see happened after them to take players away. All the MMORPGs below eso would be very pleased.
Tldr: we would only know if this went to court,but this is just easier settle outside
P.S I saw some content creators talk about making videos
Special notes: some cases make history. This isn't just minor similarities but copy and paste.Edited by FeedbackOnly on 10 April 2023 06:365 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Posting this to keep on topic
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
Remember zos has responded. What they do is who knows but at least they care enough to say something.1 -
LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Indeed. The original artist has posted.on Twitter to confirm that someone from ZOS has contacted them.
Hopefully they can get to the bottom of this, have words with the person or people responsible, fix or replace the tattoo, see the original artist compensated and take steps to ensure this oversight does not happen again.Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.16 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
Shaming people for bringing this to public attention is not a helpful take. Their post didn't even have a rude or accusing tone, they weren't looking to 'cancel' zos, they provided information, and the the posts on other media only complained about the artist getting (rightful) recognition of their art. Also, there are people who bought the markings that might also feel strongly about the fact that the art was not original, so if this was resolved behind closed doors, they might never know otherwise.
Edited: for clarification.Edited by Jaimeh on 10 April 2023 09:1321 -
DormBrand✭✭A lot of people need to brush up on their copyright law here, seriously.
Even for a derivative work, copyright remains with the creator of the work. This is automatic, and does not require any registration to be protected.
While ZOS do own the copyright of the original work and therefore also have copyright over any derivatives created, this is separate from the copyright the author of any work has, even derivatives. ZOS having the original copyright, technically fan art can not be created or published without their express permission (except for fair use, which applies a lot less than people often think), and ZOS could get fan art taken down. In most cases creation of fan art is tacitly approved and taking it down would be a bad image, but technically fan art is still a rights violation and taking it down would be completely in their rights. In so far I agree with people here.
However, as the author of the derivative also has copyright on their work, ZOS can't use it without their express permission! Two wrongs do not make a right, the derivative work being created without explicit permission does not negate the copyright a creator has on their work! To expand on this further, a third party would have to ask both ZOS and the fanart creator for permission to use their work, since both have copyright.
The TOS also does nothing here, as it applies to user generated content in the context of ESO, namely in-game creations, things created with game content (like gameplay videos and screenshots, although things start to get murky here again and it is likely they can't just force content creators to throw away their rights), and things provided directly to Zenimax in their services or for their use (e.g. uploaded on the Forums, this is both so that they are actually able to store that content on their servers and can send it to visitors of the site, as well as to cover their asses in case they incorporate feedback into their game).
None of these apply here. It specifically excludes user generated content that was created without using content specifically provided by Zenimax, and only talks about UGC in the context of it being provided to them, on their services. I'm pretty sure a Tumblr post with a design that has no relation to ESO except the idea of the characters is not covered under that.26 -
kumenit_taeynav✭✭✭✭Also, there are people who bought the markings that might also feel strongly about the fact that the art was not original
personally, i was actually really excited about it at first before i learned it has stolen art. i really wanted to use it on a tribunal priest oc of mine. i eventually got it from opening crown crates but i havent had the time to put it on my priest oc before i learned it was stolen art. ive lost my excitement over it. i dont have any plans to use it until the artist gets some form of justice they want (whether thats zos simply making a private apology to them or going as far as replacing the art with something new entirely) bc now it just feels dirty to me3 -
AD42✭✭The author also benefited financially from his art. What he writes about.
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_253
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_20
https://vk.com/tesbookzine
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
thats not how fair use works. yes, the character is copyright bethesda. but this particular creation is copyright its creator. Zenimax does Not have any legal right whatsoever to copypaste someones art and use the mirror tool on it a couple times. if they tried to argue that legally Zenimax would be laughed out of court.
Being the “creator” specifically notes the work is fab art and is about specific characters owned by Zenimax it’s very questionable to suggest Zenimax doesn’t have any legal rights in this.
Regardless of our opinions on the matter (which is all that is expressed in this thread) a court of law is the only place that will determine that legality if it comes to that.
Noting that I think Zenimax handled this poorly as they should have, at the very least, recognized the fan artist in relation to this work.
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deGarcia✭✭✭The author also benefited financially from his art. What he writes about.
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_253
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_20
https://vk.com/tesbookzine
The bookmark was a part of NON-COMMERCIAL fan-zine, artists did not get any money for it, payment for the zine is ''on-demand'', you only pay for shipping and printing costs.
Edited for smaller quoteEdited by deGarcia on 10 April 2023 10:01PC/EU Grand lore-consuming Champion of Mirrormoor17 -
AD42✭✭The author also benefited financially from his art. What he writes about.
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_253
https://vk.com/wall-197347302_20
https://vk.com/tesbookzine
The bookmark was a part of NON-COMMERCIAL fan-zine, artists did not get any money for it, payment for the zine is ''on-demand'', you only pay for shipping and printing costs.
Edited for smaller quote
You have accounting documents in your hands?0 -
deGarcia✭✭✭You have accounting documents in your hands?
But do you? The screenshots you provided are just showing that a said zine existed and how much it costed, which was never a secret in the first place, and the original artist for the bookmark isn't one of the organizers.
I'm also one of the artists who participated in this zine and I never got money for it, that's just how fandom zines work.PC/EU Grand lore-consuming Champion of Mirrormoor18 -
Fenris_Arainai✭✭✭✭markulrich1966 wrote: »
it means he can use ESO grafics in unmodified or modied form for personal use like a personal desktop wallpaper or as tattoo, but does not have any property rights on the material he uses. So he cannot complain if anyone uses it again, as the only owner is the copyright holder.
Afaik he even had to ask the copyright holder if he may use and alter the material, before he had created the tattoos, as they are not only visible for him personally, but displayed in public. So I think he violated the copyright. A company certainly will not make a big fuzz about it, as it counts as "peanuts", but if he starts to suddenly claim intellectual property on this copyrighted material, it might become a case for the lawyers.
I think you misunderstand the problem here. It's not that some person used ESO's art to make a tattoo on their body.
It's that ESO took some person's fanart without even telling them, and used it in the game to make money. While they own the character, they do not own the fanart itself. It's not similar/styled/ etc. It literally copy/pasted drawing made by a fan and used in the game without their knowledge and permission.
However, on Twitter the artist wrote ZOS in in touch with them to clarify the matter, so they are taking steps to address this.Glory to you and your Dunmer House!13 -
AD42✭✭You have accounting documents in your hands?
But do you? The screenshots you provided are just showing that a said zine existed and how much it costed, which was never a secret in the first place, and the original artist for the bookmark isn't one of the organizers.
I'm also one of the artists who participated in this zine and I never got money for it, that's just how fandom zines work.
Just don't believe everything that is written.0 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Every fan art, that is using an IP as a reference, is fair game for the holder of the rights to that IP.
The fan art is derivitive and not an original.
And so Fan Art in any form has no protection legally. I don't see why there is any confusion about it.
If the artist had not used the words Almalexia, AlmSiVi, etc. and the Dunmer looking bodies and, say, a normal human looking one instead, than it is a completly different story.Edited by Zodiarkslayer on 10 April 2023 10:24If anyone here says: OH! But, PVP! I swear I'll ...
Thank you for the valuable input and respectfully recommend to discuss that aspect of ESO on the PVP forum.1 -
deGarcia✭✭✭Just don't believe everything that is written.
Totally underastandable, but next time, please check what the screenshots say first and what are they referring to (non-commercial fan-zines in this case) before making accusations\statements like that. It can confuse other people who are not familliar with what zines are.
And also because this forum section is English-oriented and screenshots provided are in Russian, and many people won't go to lengths of translating what's written there.
PC/EU Grand lore-consuming Champion of Mirrormoor10 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Blimey, what next? A promo picture that includes a ski run?So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.2 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭At the very least this can be seen as a butthole move. Even if it would not be illegal due to it being fanart.
It's also a missed chance. ZOS is not great with involving fans. They could have contacted the artist and given them credit in the description, maybe motivating other artist. They could have even done a competition; create the art for the next skin/markings/mount/poly. Give people a small prize like ingame stuff or some merch. Then we would maybe not end up with ugly skins (current quarterly event reward) or customes (pink armour anyone?). Win-win.
Really ZOS, just do better.18