Templar is Depressingly Bad

gariondavey

godchucknzilla wrote: »

Templar is very good they just released a BIS set for Templar (IMO) called Snake in the stars. This set is giving the templar a (around) 15k proc off of POTL. Try this build:

Mara's Balm Back Bar Ice Staff, Chest, Legs, Boots (Impen)
Snake In Stars, Ring, Amulet, Maces (Nirn Sharp), Belt (Impen)
Mystic, Markyn
Monster Set, Chudan

Front Bar Skill:
Reflective Light, Power of The Light, Aurora Javelin, Radiant Opression, Degeneration, ICE COMMET Ultimate

Back Bar Skill:
Elusive Mistform, Bubble, Resolve Vigor, Honor the Dead, Extended Ritural, Vampire Ultimate

Front Bar Dual Damage Poisons
Back Bar Escapist Poisons

Stage 3 Vampire and Jewels of Misrule
CP All defensive CP's, Crit Resist CP, Iron Clad, Duelist Rebuff,

Why on earth would you run chudan on a templar and miss out on essentially free 500 regen + a decent heal if you stand in your rune?
Why would you run impen on a heavy chest?
And then obviously what @the1andonlyskwex said about the misunderstanding about what snake in the stars does.

Edit: also no spammable...

Caribou77

Making Templar lean so heavily on radiant oppression by critically nerfing every other viable skill effectively killed the class for me. Spamming RO is just insanely boring.

Amerises

Caribou77 wrote: »

Making Templar lean so heavily on radiant oppression by critically nerfing every other viable skill effectively killed the class for me. Spamming RO is just insanely boring.

I can’t count how many 1v1 fights end with one of us walking away and the other going the other direction. I was even in IC sewers and we just walked together lol. I don’t play a DK, but does this happen often? It seems like it mostly DKs that we just part ways…

godchucknzilla

gariondavey wrote: »

godchucknzilla wrote: »

Templar is very good they just released a BIS set for Templar (IMO) called Snake in the stars. This set is giving the templar a (around) 15k proc off of POTL. Try this build:

Mara's Balm Back Bar Ice Staff, Chest, Legs, Boots (Impen)
Snake In Stars, Ring, Amulet, Maces (Nirn Sharp), Belt (Impen)
Mystic, Markyn
Monster Set, Chudan

Front Bar Skill:
Reflective Light, Power of The Light, Aurora Javelin, Radiant Opression, Degeneration, ICE COMMET Ultimate

Back Bar Skill:
Elusive Mistform, Bubble, Resolve Vigor, Honor the Dead, Extended Ritural, Vampire Ultimate

Front Bar Dual Damage Poisons
Back Bar Escapist Poisons

Stage 3 Vampire and Jewels of Misrule
CP All defensive CP's, Crit Resist CP, Iron Clad, Duelist Rebuff,

Why on earth would you run chudan on a templar and miss out on essentially free 500 regen + a decent heal if you stand in your rune?
Why would you run impen on a heavy chest?
And then obviously what @the1andonlyskwex said about the misunderstanding about what snake in the stars does.

Edit: also no spammable...

"Why on earth would you run chudan on a templar and miss out on essentially free 500 regen + a decent heal if you stand in your rune? "

No one stands still in cyrodiil unless you are 2v1'ing someone, Chudan gives a free skill slot, not many other monster helm give as much tankyness. Ballorg is nice damage but makes you squishier and cost you a gcd and skill slot.

"Why would you run impen on a heavy chest? "

Run Reinforced or Impen up to you. Impen sure does help vs those crit builds I run reinforced to be honest, just was trying to type up a build quick.

"Edit: also no spammable...[/quote]
Between, Degeneration, Reflective light, back bar poison application and auroura javelin you aren't a spammer.

My wife on this build went 87kb/15 death in cyro yesterday. Snake in the stars procs on most people is 15k+ damage. Don't try to nit pick argue that it's not damage just healing reduction.

Good luck with your Templars! 87kb/15 death that's better than me on Meta DK doing 100kb / 30 sloppy deaths.

OnGodiDoDis

I found the perfect Templar build. It's a hybrid build and it's the only and best option right now. I haven't lost a 1v1 with it. I've been running it for a while now. Old school sets, no cheese.

FirmamentOfStars

godchucknzilla wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

godchucknzilla wrote: »

Templar is very good they just released a BIS set for Templar (IMO) called Snake in the stars. This set is giving the templar a (around) 15k proc off of POTL. Try this build:

Mara's Balm Back Bar Ice Staff, Chest, Legs, Boots (Impen)
Snake In Stars, Ring, Amulet, Maces (Nirn Sharp), Belt (Impen)
Mystic, Markyn
Monster Set, Chudan

Front Bar Skill:
Reflective Light, Power of The Light, Aurora Javelin, Radiant Opression, Degeneration, ICE COMMET Ultimate

Back Bar Skill:
Elusive Mistform, Bubble, Resolve Vigor, Honor the Dead, Extended Ritural, Vampire Ultimate

Front Bar Dual Damage Poisons
Back Bar Escapist Poisons

Stage 3 Vampire and Jewels of Misrule
CP All defensive CP's, Crit Resist CP, Iron Clad, Duelist Rebuff,

Why on earth would you run chudan on a templar and miss out on essentially free 500 regen + a decent heal if you stand in your rune?
Why would you run impen on a heavy chest?
And then obviously what @the1andonlyskwex said about the misunderstanding about what snake in the stars does.

Edit: also no spammable...

"Why on earth would you run chudan on a templar and miss out on essentially free 500 regen + a decent heal if you stand in your rune? "

No one stands still in cyrodiil unless you are 2v1'ing someone, Chudan gives a free skill slot, not many other monster helm give as much tankyness. Ballorg is nice damage but makes you squishier and cost you a gcd and skill slot.

"Why would you run impen on a heavy chest? "

Run Reinforced or Impen up to you. Impen sure does help vs those crit builds I run reinforced to be honest, just was trying to type up a build quick.

"Edit: also no spammable...

Between, Degeneration, Reflective light, back bar poison application and auroura javelin you aren't a spammer.

My wife on this build went 87kb/15 death in cyro yesterday. Snake in the stars procs on most people is 15k+ damage. Don't try to nit pick argue that it's not damage just healing reduction.

Good luck with your Templars! 87kb/15 death that's better than me on Meta DK doing 100kb / 30 sloppy deaths.

[/quote]

In all honesty, chudan is a bad choice for templar. As others pointed out, you miss on the additional regen plus it provides minor mending as well. Now you can argue, that you receive that from extended ritual, which is true. But if you can stay in extended ritual, you can easely stay in your rune too from time to time to catch an additional heal.

Also yes, you have no spammable and your argument there is pretty bad. Both degeneration and vamp bane have like 20+ second duration and javelin only cc‘s when the immunity is down. In between is lots of time for using a spammable. I have not seen one real pvp build in years without a spammable.

Also having a 87/15 kill-death-ration is like no argument at all and does not proof anything. I could pretty much put anything on templar, slotting beam and go cyrodiil zerg serfing und would problably return with a kd of like 100/5 after 1-2 hours of prime time pvp. So far I only heard „bad feedback“ about snakes in the star from known pvpers. Therefore I take your post here with some scepticism.

TechMaybeHic

The only thing you have to stand in rune for is the HOT and passive mending. The resist buff and recovery sticks with you

godchucknzilla

I guess rune is good if you need the regen go for it, the snake set has two regen bonus. For us the extra gcd, the buff to not baby sit, and freed up skill slot makes sense. We are also duo'ing in Cyro and not dueling. For dueling bg perhaps go with Deltia's build. Due to the Bubble the Templar is by no means lacking. You could even use the Artillery Burst if you want a dedicated spamable.

OBJnoob

Lol.

People saying templar are bad... Then when someone else says that they are doing good with a build, people telling them the build is bad.

Honestly if someone is having success with gear and a class you think is bad you should probably ask them for advice not offer them advice.

@godchucknzilla Honestly good for you and your wife. Who cares what anyone else says? It's not easy to solo or duo in cyrodiil these days. You're probably just better players that some of these people. You tell someone as a matter of fact you go 85/12 with your setup and they say that anecdotal experience makes them skeptical... But then they offer the HYPOTHETICAL that they COULD go 100/2. LOL.

the1andonlyskwex

OBJnoob wrote: »

Lol.

People saying templar are bad... Then when someone else says that they are doing good with a build, people telling them the build is bad.

Honestly if someone is having success with gear and a class you think is bad you should probably ask them for advice not offer them advice.

There's a ton of this sort of thing on these forums, and it's definitely not just Templars. If I only had a nickel for every Nightblade (in past patches) who complained about how bad they were while simultaneously bragging about their 20:1 KDR, I'd be rich.

SilverBride

My Templar is my strongest character. They may not be the best for PvP, which I don't participate in very often, but in general they can be pretty good.

FirmamentOfStars

OBJnoob wrote: »

Lol.

People saying templar are bad... Then when someone else says that they are doing good with a build, people telling them the build is bad.

Honestly if someone is having success with gear and a class you think is bad you should probably ask them for advice not offer them advice.

@godchucknzilla Honestly good for you and your wife. Who cares what anyone else says? It's not easy to solo or duo in cyrodiil these days. You're probably just better players that some of these people. You tell someone as a matter of fact you go 85/12 with your setup and they say that anecdotal experience makes them skeptical... But then they offer the HYPOTHETICAL that they COULD go 100/2. LOL.

No, the problem here is something different and dependent on perspective.

The build from godchucknzilla isnt terrible, since it includes maras balm, which obviously is still one of the best sets in the game. Others here questioned the use of chudan, since rune focus is a very good skill. Also the missing of a spammable is questionable, since dots, potl and javelin will not cover long time pressure and the rare meteor does not improve that situation at all. Additionally the feedback about snake in the stars in its current state is more like "the set is bad like this".

With the information above about his build and the statement of him duoing with his wife plus the kill death ratio numbers, I assume his skill and experience is at best above average. Also here comes in the perspective problem: This before is my assumption, so it might not be true. Still the statement of duoing with his wife, does not provide any information about his gameplay at all. A duo can just be part of the zerg where every class is viable. Maybe duoing also means to do 2v1 mostly, we do not know. But he is also admitting, that maybe deltias build would be better for duelling or bgs, while deltias builds is probably very suitable for soloing and duoing too.

But what I know is, that his and his wife k/d is for both duoing on their own and zerging pretty bad. An average player with some good situational awareness in a zerg should not die often at all, pretty much only when the zerg gets busted by a ballgroup and even that is avoidable with some awareness. In a zerg vs zerg fight, if you see your side losing, you easely could run away in advance, if k/d is precious to you. Thats why I said in zerg you could easely doo 100/5 k/d ratio. But the numbers of 87/15 and 100/30 are far too sloppy for a duo of good players knowing their place and how/where to fight. This is why I believe their skilllevel are not too high and therefore I do not trust his perspective/opinion regarding the topic.

I would count myself as a very experienced templar player with several thousands of hours in this class. When I fight players with similar experience, I know how fights end depending on the class of my enemy. With a similar experience level and quality of builds, templar will struggle to kill most wardens, dks and other templars because of their pretty weak offensive power. Defensely the templar class is in a very good state and therefore does not lose easely even against dks or nighblades. Obviously the presence of healing sets like maras balm and hist sap make this issue even worse, which forces many players to only stalemate against similar experienced players. Outliers here are mostly dks and nbs, since they remained their high killing power through corrosive ultimate or strong hitting spectral bows.

Templars is not terrible or bad generally speaking, since they have good defense. But the class is very frustrating to play, because their offense is super weak and killing any decent enemy together with healing sets is almost not possible. If you get no kills with the class, the class is simply not fun playing, because the kills are the rewards of your gameplay. And that is why everybody is saying here the class is bad, because they are frustrated about the weak offense, therefore no kills and no rewards, but they tend to forget its strong defense quickly.

OBJnoob

Templars need some love, for sure. But their badness is probably exaggerated a bit. Because their previous OPness is under exaggerated a bit.

I've had some better players than me wreck me with their templar. I've also beaten some templars but thought they performed well enough. Have seen beam-bots, dark Flare spammers, AND some people still jabbing away.

I'm not one of those awesome people who take bad classes and do well on them (not against good competition anyway,) but I am someone that makes set-up out of irregular gear and skill combos. You can be VERY effective with things other people scoff at (yes, versus good competition.) All you need is enough game knowledge not to make any SERIOUS faux pas in build, and like 2 weeks of determined practice.

I find once I reach the point where I can fight and barswap without looking/thinking about where my "new" abilities are or how this particular toon plays... Well, they all do okay.

TechMaybeHic

I know lots of bad players die to templars still. And Zerg surfing with beam from the back makes plenty feel good about themselves. Fact remains; the burst ability needed to kill a decent player, to get them in execute range; does not hit for what it should. I know I at least; have not felt threatened by a templar by themselves in a very long time

OBJnoob

Thing is though that I don't think dueling or Zerg surfing was being talked about originally. It's just a looming opinion that people keep wrongly introducing. They are running duo as DK and Templar. People seem to forget that fact when they say things like "no spammable? Absurd!" The person may very well be kiting, healing, coordinating with her husband's burst to apply Snake and possibly contributing a beam.

I know that SOME people think if you aren't Xing you aren't good but any duo running through Cyro with 80/20 KD gets props from me.

I think people need to take the time to read and understand the context supplied to them instead of superimposing their own experiences, playstyle, and biases.

Or because you stand in Alikr all day dueling meta DKs and getting spanked maybe don't think that means Templars suck at every aspect of PvP... Of which there are many.

TechMaybeHic

I don't really care where you're at. If you're in a DK, NB, or Warden and you get anywhere near dieing to a Templar; you really should look in the mirror.

Of course; I felt that way before update 35 with exception of like 5 Templars PC NA. Cloudrests, Kristofer, and 3 others maybe I can't remember names to do anything more than turtle up. Now? LoL maybe Kristofer if he still played as he never used jabs, relied a lot on stampede and the most flawless animation cancelling I've ever seen

OBJnoob

Right. Well I'm just trying to stand up for some people who seem to be having success and are being told they aren't good even though they perform well.

[snip]
[edited for trolling]

TechMaybeHic

The thought of me and the people I mentioned being friends amuses me. I don't think we've ever been on the same side let alone friends. It's more of learning the hard way on who to take seriously.

fred4

I think what godchucknzilla means is that Power of the Light + Snake in the Stars + Beam works against targets wearing Mara? I don't know where the 15K figure is coming from, though.

MEBengalsFan2001

OBJnoob wrote: »

Templars need some love, for sure. But their badness is probably exaggerated a bit. Because their previous OPness is under exaggerated a bit.

I've had some better players than me wreck me with their templar. I've also beaten some templars but thought they performed well enough. Have seen beam-bots, dark Flare spammers, AND some people still jabbing away.

I'm not one of those awesome people who take bad classes and do well on them (not against good competition anyway,) but I am someone that makes set-up out of irregular gear and skill combos. You can be VERY effective with things other people scoff at (yes, versus good competition.) All you need is enough game knowledge not to make any SERIOUS faux pas in build, and like 2 weeks of determined practice.

I find once I reach the point where I can fight and barswap without looking/thinking about where my "new" abilities are or how this particular toon plays... Well, they all do okay.

Templars had higher damage value in the past because it lacked a variety of buffs. Yet DK, NB and Warden have buffs a plenty offensively and defensively which makes them hard kills. Add to the issue that DK and Warden base skills also provide debuff making them that much stronger.

Due to the Devs level setting skills it hurt the templar, Sorc and Necro the most given they don't have the buffs that the other three classes have making them weaker. Devs thought hey DK need easy access to major berserk and yet only gave templar a few extra DoT ticks on their ultimate. What would have made more sense from a balance side is giving Templar the major on their ultimate and giving chains a small Fire DoT tick that would align with the DK class better and the buff would give templar a slight damage bonus they are lacking.

Devs simply showed their cards by buffing DK and giving Templar an unneeded extra DoT to their ultimate.

As for defensive templars are IMO only better than Sorcs. As for heals, again better than Sorcs.

My healer that can get upward of 45K resistance, has additional 30% damage reduction on the backbar, and can get around 4k spell damage, can't take an on 2 DK or 2 NB. 1 is hard enough due to the high damage or constant pressure and if the DK/NB ultimate is ready when 1v1 I'm usually dead if I can't remove myself from their LoS. That's not balance considering how high my resistance and damage reduction are.

I adjust my templar gear and stats and go full on damage and I'm dead before I even have a chance to get a 2nd ability off. Blocking or healing through it won't stop the pressure and the end result is usually death when within melee range.

Best way to play a templar is to stay back and attack behind Wardens, Necro Tanks, etc... I can get plenty of kills that way. But that isn't fun and if you don't have a group to help you out it becomes a challenge playing as Sir Galahad, you know the running away method.

Sergykid

do these players that "perform well" fight actual proper targets? because i sometimes seen and fought these youtubers that make "builds" (why is slapping two sets called a build?) in battlegrounds and they're just slightly above average on that level.
And even so, class balance can't and shouldn't be based on one or a few individuals that show it in one or a few scenarios

FirmamentOfStars

Sergykid wrote: »

do these players that "perform well" fight actual proper targets? because i sometimes seen and fought these youtubers that make "builds" (why is slapping two sets called a build?) in battlegrounds and they're just slightly above average on that level.
And even so, class balance can't and shouldn't be based on one or a few individuals that show it in one or a few scenarios

Yeah that was pretty much my point in my previous comment. "Doing well" is very dependent on perspective. Who is the guy saying the class is fine or strong or whatever and who is he fighting against.

The class is not weak, thanks to a strong defensive toolkit. But it perfroms poorly, since success is mostly based on kills, which you do not get with the templars poor offense. That is why people are upset with the class, saying it is bad, since it performs poorly due to bad offense.

Mansquito

But those people that say it's fine because it has good HoTs obviously don't have the capacity to realise that part of your defensive toolkit is offense. If you pose little to no threat then you are going to be under pressure for longer, meaning you don't get any let up from their attacks and you waste a significant portion of your resources on heals and blocks.

What's the point in a PvP game with a class that actually can't PvP, lol. You can kill squishies with it which is what a lot of 'Xers' post, but they never kill strong opponents with it because it's too weak a class.

KainedED

Mansquito wrote: »

But those people that say it's fine because it has good HoTs obviously don't have the capacity to realise that part of your defensive toolkit is offense. If you pose little to no threat then you are going to be under pressure for longer, meaning you don't get any let up from their attacks and you waste a significant portion of your resources on heals and blocks.

What's the point in a PvP game with a class that actually can't PvP, lol. You can kill squishies with it which is what a lot of 'Xers' post, but they never kill strong opponents with it because it's too weak a class.

Just want to start out by saying templar we all know is not in the strongest state offensively; however saying its incapable of killing strong players is pretty disingenuous.

Templar has a lot of redundant abilities that could desperately use some reworks but the reality is if they even just fixed backlash/power of the light it would be a significantly better place even with the current jabs.

Udrath

I hope they buff jabs and backlash, and nerf beam. Or a least take the CD off burning light.

Baconlad

When spamming radiant oppression is stronger than spamming any skill magplar has...at 100% health there's a problem.

Also someone tell me how a 39k pve crit turns into 1.6k crit in pvp on a target that's not blocking and took a full 6 seconds of light attacks and javelin and jbeam? I just don't understand the logic zos took with PL and POTL.

I think it's broken...there's no way that can be justified

Baconlad

Daggone...I'm sorry I mentioned jbeam, they aren't going to buff anything we have, I just told them we have a skill that I use from templar line, expect it nerfed next patch

TechMaybeHic

Welp; I was doing OK with toppling into wrecking blow, Crescent, and Jbeam with bloodthirsty; but lag on PCNA continues to deteriorate and topplings not wanting to work, nevermind follow it up with wrecking blow, and then you crescent into thin air, and JBeam without the pressure and health missing, you might as well forget about it.

All I can say is the game is wrecked. Its not necessarily a templar problem, but it sure feels even more awful. Don't really care for gap closers anyway, but was putting up with it

MEBengalsFan2001

When you look up the imagine of Templar on google you find a person in armor with a sword, meaning melee. When I look up ESO templar I find trash cans and light flashing from hands. Nothing melee.

Templars are simply fodders in the current ESO. You are there so the rest of your alliance can get the kills. You are now the pawns in the great game of DragonKnight Online.

Afterip

Have magplar and magnecro and in my opinion magplar MUCH better in pvp than magnecro. But both of them at the bottom of the pvp food chain...