DK needs a 13% Damage Nerf

OBJnoob

Yes

Remove the +damage taken and replace it with -healing received? It could be only half the value, since healing is more ubiquitous than a specific damage type. In practicality it's a pretty similar handicap, but doesn't show preference towards the opponent's class.

I think this would fit the ESO vampire lore, since they have a lot of "can't receive healing from other sources," stuff already.

Durham

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

Nerf MARA's ! Reduce regen across the board! Reduce the amount resources you get from pots! Nerf ult regen in PVP! Nerf stackable healing. All armor should be nerfed in armor stats down 20%. Heavy armor should recieve nerf of 20% to resource return.

Anything that a set does by itself (procs) should be drastically reduced ... Sets should not carry players they should enhance the players experience.

Boost single target damage by 15% against AOE! Reinstate healing debuffs to 30% from abilities not sets .... This would bring Necro's back into the ball game! Most morphs on classes should be simple have AOE version and single target version .... Simple balance.

AndreNoir

Durham wrote: »

Reinstate healing debuffs to 30% from abilities not sets .... This would bring Necro's back into the ball game!

Necro with his major debuffs on AoE abilities is the same concern to balance as mara, toilet stacking vigor etc

Luth7

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

DK is problematic for balance because of the damage to selfheal abilities. It could be balanced without getting rid of the damage to heal possibilities by changing them to only affect allies. This could be also done in tandem to rework other abilites that no one really uses, like obsidian shard. The selfheal option would be still coagulating blood and there could be even interesting new possibilies for DK healers in groups. But maximum damage DKs would be pretty squishy, as it should be.

My main is DK, just as a hint that this isn't some salty "i got rek'd by DK in PvP; nerf pls" post.

OBJnoob

Yes

I'm being dense Luth... What do you mean by damage to self healing abilities? Like burning embers you mean?

If that's what you mean I agree. Seems like a cool idea, and it's more of a shift in power than a nerf. I've heard DKs make decent PvP healers but is that really cuz they heal well or just cuz they never die, y'know? I'm sure you can scrape stuff together from weapon and guild lines to do whatever on anything, but it does seem to me like they're lacking in that department.

Wait. They're lacking in a department?? -mindblown-

thesarahandcompany

No, DK is fine

This is a bad poll. Language-wise.

Here's problems with DK:
-You are forced into one playstyle, that is favored by stam DK with hyrbidization changes, which is spamming corrosive and building up whip stacks

-Corrosive makes you too tanky and has maximum value on stamina builds who can now use magicka heals and vigor and all the other heal sources more effectively with WD scaling

-Changes to applied sticky DOTs have rendered magicka DK builds virtually useless in PVP, compared to other dot classes that rely on ground DOTs -- battlespirit needs to be more detailed in what it does given the very detailed changes in abilities (e.g., damage taken from applied dots should be cut by like 40-45% instead of 50%

-Flame lash is useless and not viable in most scenarios, and shoudl just be converted to a conal whip

-Molten whip should do both flame and poison damage, given it's cost being split by stamina and magicka

-Engulfing flames should do more base damage than venom breath

Urzigurumash

Yes I think it's true, in general, that Stam gained a bit more out of hybridization than Mag because of the numerous Mag heals, but otherwise I think most of the comments about Mag vs Stam DK these days are incoherent, there is no Mag or Stam DK. if stacking Stam outperforms stacking Mag I think it's because of the advantages gained by having more Stam for maneuvers, the option to restore resources more quickly in melee range, the DW/2H passives outperforming Destro passives, and the strength of Spin 2 Win and Brawler over Pulsar, a skill which has only ever seen popular use as an "emergency finisher" on Lightning Staff AoE Burst builds. MagDK was only barely more dependent than StamDK on Sticky DoTs, for years the meta for sDK was hanging on to your Take Flight until the final seconds of Venomous Claw with its ramping damage. Off the top of my head the only Sticky DoT MagDK had that sDK didn't was Volatile Armor - and this skill's coefficient is so weak that it barely made a difference if you stacked Weapon or Spell Damage, like a few hundred per tick. (edit: also Burning Talons, so you're very right about that actually because this skill is simply too expensive to use on a Stam-stacking DK, and also it was quite strong after the buffs to DK and before the change to DoTs. You are right that if this skill were as strong as it was a few patches ago that Mag-stacking DK would be stronger).

There's no meaningful difference in how to play DK most effectively whether stacking Mag or Stam, and for all of the reasons explained in this thread Flame Damage outperforms Physical Damage by a considerable margin. So that's why it doesn't really make much sense to say Mag or Stam DK. You stack Stam and deal damage with Flame skills. Before the split cost of Whip however stacking Mag was widely regarded as more effective than stacking Stam on DK.

Further edit - so sure a Stam-stacking DK outperforms Mag-stacking DK. But again it's misleading to say "StamDK" because Flame outperforms Poison and Physical - and this overperformance of Flame Damage is the point of this poll and the entire reason why I wrote "13%". Physical and Poison were the characteristic damage types of StamDK long enough for them to retain an association with the idea of the sub-class, in my opinion.

Urzigurumash

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

This is a bad poll. Language-wise.

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Corrosive makes you too tanky

You don't like the way I wrote the third option? Seems to reflect your statements, no?

I wrote those poll options that way to draw attention to the OP state of Undeath, I've been saying for months with little reply from other commenters that the HP Regen vs Undeath vs Flame Damage thing has got to be sorted out before DK can be truly balanced in PvE / PvP and as DD / Tank.

Luth7

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm being dense Luth... What do you mean by damage to self healing abilities? Like burning embers you mean?

I also meant Draw Essence (Inhale morph) which does AoE damage (8m range), got the max. target cap removed iirc and heals for 162% of all damage done. If the player waits for the second damage-only tick after 2.5 seconds, it also refunds 10% of the cost per target hit, which means that in mass PvP it can be often used without cost. But with high mag regen you can also spam the ability for the first damage to heal tick easily if needed.

TechMaybeHic

Have to say Urzi; I love the way you handle discussion. Very reasonable replies on disagreements are rare

thesarahandcompany

No, DK is fine

Urzigurumash wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

This is a bad poll. Language-wise.

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Corrosive makes you too tanky

You don't like the way I wrote the third option? Seems to reflect your statements, no?

I wrote those poll options that way to draw attention to the OP state of Undeath, I've been saying for months with little reply from other commenters that the HP Regen vs Undeath vs Flame Damage thing has got to be sorted out before DK can be truly balanced in PvE / PvP and as DD / Tank.

No I don't like it. It's a poorly written poll.

QUESTION: DK should get a 13% damage nerf.

ANSWERS
Yes

No, DK is fine

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

1. The question asks if I agree with a specific 13% damage nerf. If I say no, then you assume I think DK is "fine" if I choose answer 2. It doesn't need a nerf to its tanking power. There are plenty of things that make it tanky such as the healing received passive and its ability heals. Corrosive needs reworked to be on par with Goliath or Scion. That's essentially what the ability is close to. Goliath and Scion also need buffed, especially Goliath. 3. DK needs to be somewhat tanky because it's a melee class, this is especialyl true for MAG DK that now has less healing than stam DK and less options.

Urzigurumash

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

This is a bad poll. Language-wise.

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Corrosive makes you too tanky

You don't like the way I wrote the third option? Seems to reflect your statements, no?

I wrote those poll options that way to draw attention to the OP state of Undeath, I've been saying for months with little reply from other commenters that the HP Regen vs Undeath vs Flame Damage thing has got to be sorted out before DK can be truly balanced in PvE / PvP and as DD / Tank.

No I don't like it. It's a poorly written poll.

QUESTION: DK should get a 13% damage nerf.

ANSWERS
Yes

No, DK is fine

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

1. The question asks if I agree with a specific 13% damage nerf. If I say no, then you assume I think DK is "fine" if I choose answer 2. It doesn't need a nerf to its tanking power. There are plenty of things that make it tanky such as the healing received passive and its ability heals. Corrosive needs reworked to be on par with Goliath or Scion. That's essentially what the ability is close to. Goliath and Scion also need buffed, especially Goliath. 3. DK needs to be somewhat tanky because it's a melee class, this is especialyl true for MAG DK that now has less healing than stam DK and less options.

Fair points but Corrosive has only been nerfed since launch (for "sDK") and I see plenty of DKs shredding with Ferocious Leap, so that's not the whole story. DK would be on top with any Ult.

I had another beautifully unbiasedly written poll in 2021 which is relevant to this one:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586418/undeath-is-op-does-it-matter

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Have to say Urzi; I love the way you handle discussion. Very reasonable replies on disagreements are rare

Hey thanks Tech, appreciate that very much, I understand I could be wrong about everything I've ever written.

I'm happy to disagree with myself about the whole premise here with the simple answer that - Flame Damage is supposed to be the strongest damage type in TES, but with its own limitations. Could be the case, I'm not sure.

thesarahandcompany

No, DK is fine

Urzigurumash wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

This is a bad poll. Language-wise.

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Corrosive makes you too tanky

You don't like the way I wrote the third option? Seems to reflect your statements, no?

I wrote those poll options that way to draw attention to the OP state of Undeath, I've been saying for months with little reply from other commenters that the HP Regen vs Undeath vs Flame Damage thing has got to be sorted out before DK can be truly balanced in PvE / PvP and as DD / Tank.

No I don't like it. It's a poorly written poll.

QUESTION: DK should get a 13% damage nerf.

ANSWERS
Yes

No, DK is fine

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

1. The question asks if I agree with a specific 13% damage nerf. If I say no, then you assume I think DK is "fine" if I choose answer 2. It doesn't need a nerf to its tanking power. There are plenty of things that make it tanky such as the healing received passive and its ability heals. Corrosive needs reworked to be on par with Goliath or Scion. That's essentially what the ability is close to. Goliath and Scion also need buffed, especially Goliath. 3. DK needs to be somewhat tanky because it's a melee class, this is especialyl true for MAG DK that now has less healing than stam DK and less options.

Fair points but Corrosive has only been nerfed since launch (for "sDK") and I see plenty of DKs shredding with Ferocious Leap, so that's not the whole story. DK would be on top with any Ult.

I had another beautifully unbiasedly written poll in 2021 which is relevant to this one:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/586418/undeath-is-op-does-it-matter

Sorry, but I just disagree with your polls and how they are worded. They're very leading and non-exhaustive in the Q&A, making it hard for me to feel like I'm actually giving an accurate answer based on my beliefs and experiences.

If I wrote this poll, I would have rather asked something like this:

How balanced do you personally think DK is when generally compared to all the other classes?
-Very balanced
-Somewhat balanced
-Neither balanced nor imbalanced
-Somewhat imbalanced -> go next question
-Very imbalanced -> go next question

You said that DK was [ (somewhat | very ) imbalanced compared to all the other classes. Would you said it is generally stronger or weaker than all the other classes?
-DK is the strongest class
-DK is one of the strongest classes
-DK is one of the weaker classes
-DK is the weakest class

*****

Nothing personal. I just dislike the poll function on this forum. I don't think polls are usually written well.

Iriidius

No, DK is fine

The 13% flame dmg taken penalty of vampire stage 3 cant be regarded as part of dk dmg, because despite majority of pvp players beeing vampires vampire is only a polymorph and not all players use it and vampire fire dmg taken increase is a vampire passive and not a dk passive. There will also come a time when vampire will be unpopular. If all players are vampire stage 3, the problem is all players beeing vampires/undeath passive beeing to strong and not dks getting advantage of your vampire flame dmg passive. As class without execute the undeath passive is also worse for mag dks than for stamdens/2hstamdk. Dunmer also get 4620 flame resi(7-14% less fire dmg). If you dont want get 13% extra fire dmg then dont play Vampire.

Before Hybridization only Mag dk used fire skills and stam dks didnt used a single fire skill. After hybridization many mag dks are dropping engulfing flame with 6%flame dmg increase for stam poison morph noxious breath and many stam dks are using molten whip (and dragonblood), but many stam dks also still use dizzy swing+ executioner or shield bash or something else as spammable and dont deal any fire dmg. Dont know how you want to nerf dk dmg to negate vampire passive, but only the flame dmg skills do 13% extra dmg vs stage 3 vampires and only for them a nerf makes sense.
Molten whip, engulfing flame and burning embers all already got nerfed, flame leap should be ok because dawnbreaker also does more dmg vs vampire,other dk flame dmg skills arent that strong.
The opposite of a 13% increase is a 11%decrease, not a 13% nerf(100/113=89).

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Damage across the board is still too high in PVE and PVP. As is healing.

Healing Adjustments: Healing is based on total resource pool and the higher recovery stat

Roles impact stats in Dungeons, Trails and PVP Zones:

DPS: heals are reduced by 75%, damage mitigation capped at 35% and gains 1000 penetration.

Tanks: Damage is reduced by 25%, heals are reduced by 75%, and healing in of 25%

Healers: Damage is reduced by 25%, damage mitigation is capped at 35% and gains 25% increase in healing out.

Something needs to be done and using roles to incorporate improvements to the game is the easiest path to making roles matter in ESO in both PVE and PVP.

ZoS shouldnt enforce role specialisation in PvP only because we have roles in Eso dungeons and Trials. Roles are only an option if you play in an organized group that always runs together where every role is performed by someone. If your group wants to use roles, you can already do that. Most ballgroups consist of 6 dds, 4 healers and 2 supports(not tanks, because there is no taunt in PvP, enemy players attack whoever they want, preferebly your squisiest target).
You cant specialize into a role if you play without group/with randoms. You cant even travel back to your group alone if you get killed or come back from break. You cant play a dd without selheal without healer except you are a ganker that oneshots victim or dies. You cant play healer if there is noone to heal. You cant play squishy healer without friendly targets to heal because you cant kill anyone alone and just get burstet. You cant play tank without self heal and healer because you just get parsed like a dummy.
Most PvP builds you find in Internet deal damage, heal themselves and take dmg and can also be used solo. Not only solo players but also most smallscalers and many zerg surfers and PuG members use solo builds because they dont always get healed enaugh or get seperated from theit group sometimes.

merpins

I think every other class needs a buff, with differing strengths, to get as good as DK. Don't nerf DK to make it on par with other classes, use DK as the standard and buff everyone else to match it.

Udrath

No, DK is fine

I rather them return race against time so it reduces sprint cost but no longer provides cc snare immunity, and get rid of base line 1000 spell/weapon damage and baseline recovery. Increase the crit resist trait and rework balrogh into a beneficial werewolf set as it was intended to be ( Should provide cost reduction on skills instead of current.) This would solve a lot of tank meta issues.

SeraphsRose

Coming back to this, PTS patch notes are in favour of a 25% damage nerf to the Combustion passive, which affects flame and poison damage.

I'm primarily a stam DK PvE player, it's already a tough class to play as stamina, and ZoS is making it even harder? Why constantly cater to PvP players? They're a ridiculously vocal minority.

I really enjoy my character, she was the first character I made when I started playing in 2017. I now have a great build, I know my character incredibly well, and I have completed many vet hard modes, speed runs, and no death challenges. I even 3-manned vet hard mode March of Sacrifices with two friends.

Stam DK hasn't had any love from the Devs for a long time, why force them to be more of a tank role? I thought the emphasis was playing the way we want? Or is it just that the Devs want to force people to play other classes? I have characters of other classes, but I enjoy my stam DK the most.

It feels pretty insulting to be practically forced into using a staff, or making her a tank, which I definitely do not want.

OBJnoob

Yes

SeraphsRose wrote: »

Coming back to this, PTS patch notes are in favour of a 25% damage nerf to the Combustion passive, which affects flame and poison damage.

I'm primarily a stam DK PvE player, it's already a tough class to play as stamina, and ZoS is making it even harder? Why constantly cater to PvP players? They're a ridiculously vocal minority.

I really enjoy my character, she was the first character I made when I started playing in 2017. I now have a great build, I know my character incredibly well, and I have completed many vet hard modes, speed runs, and no death challenges. I even 3-manned vet hard mode March of Sacrifices with two friends.

Stam DK hasn't had any love from the Devs for a long time, why force them to be more of a tank role? I thought the emphasis was playing the way we want? Or is it just that the Devs want to force people to play other classes? I have characters of other classes, but I enjoy my stam DK the most.

It feels pretty insulting to be practically forced into using a staff, or making her a tank, which I definitely do not want.

You dug up a months old topic just to complain about PvPers complaining?

My understanding is that DK is the best at PvE too.

If you just want your exact preferred build, weapons, and abilities buffed maybe make your own topic for that?

FYI talking about your speed runs and 3-mans and Vet HMs isn't a super convincing way to go about it.

Brakkish

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

DK is the default beginner class.

Easy heals, easy sustain, easy damage. Where it becomes a problem is in the hands of an expert.
Beginners become experts.

DKs are then everywhere - this in turn makes them stand out and bring this sort of attention.
It's predictable of any class that becomes the "new to pvp? try X class" default. Back in the day we went through this with Templar as an example... look where it ended up today.

Urzigurumash

@SeraphsRose Sounds like the third option is the one for you, the "tank power" one. Do note and ruminate upon my alternatives listed beneath the first post.

I'm so old I was thrown a bit off by the introduction of Venomous Claw and the whole Poison DD theme introduced in 2016, content as I was spamming Wrecking Blow ad infinitum.

Years later I'm quite fond of the theme - so fond, in fact, that I made this poll, hence its title: StamDK found its way back to S Tier for the first time since shortly after the introduction of V Claw, except this time, it does flame damage!

FriedEggSandwich

Nerfing the damage output of a whole class because everyone feels the need to be stage 3, seems like a bad move. I agree that undeath is currently indispensable, but I would just rather it wasn't. Maybe DK does need a nerf, idk enough about the class to suggest changes to it. But the prevalence of vamp stage 3 should not be the reason to do it.

Mesite

No, DK is fine

I don't usually enjoy playing DK. Out of all the classes I found them the least appealing. Until last week when I realised I could go to a dolmen and fire out a chain and drag the enemies to me, straight from under people's noses. Seeing all those people swinging their swords at an enemy who isn't there anymore was fun.

I don't agree with any nerfs. (Life isn't fair). What would we do if the Devs stopped all work on nerfs immediately and this was the game from now on? We'd all concentrate on playing the game they gave us, and we'd like it.

Twig_Garlicshine

Most classes besides dk need buffs or ability optimization.

Biggest problem is Undeath leading to World of Vamps.
It is a bigger crutch than any gear set.

Many have reasons to not play vamp, yet it is the preferred choice for "tankiness" and a problem.

Game should not be balanced around the assumption that everyone will play vamp.
Nerfing or buffing with the assumption of Undeath use means any nerf/buff done now will also have to be adjusted later.
Zos has dug themselves a deep hole with Undeath.

Disclaimer: I rarely play dk as I find it boring.

Udrath

No, DK is fine

There is a huge difference between a good dk and inexperienced dk more so than other classes I believe. I only hate fighting the class because fossilise and leap cause desyncs. Coagulating blood needs to be tuned down a bit, or vampire undeath nerfed, because currently they have the strongest block heal. 10% hp to full in one cast is what I have seen and undeath makes execute hit for nothing when they block.

Corrosive armor should last longer and cost more, but apply a big 50% snare to themselves each second of corrosive. The class should still be able to tank several players at once, and be tough enough to punish players that dog pile on them like they always have since the beginning. Personally the only skill in all of pvp I dislike is the current race against time. Major expedition and snare removal should have never been apart of the same ability.

HiImRex

No, DK is fine

No the average player’s understanding of the meta is always a good 2-3 months behind the actual state of the meta, these kinds of threads and outcry is why we have a never ending cycle of meta fixing itself over several incremental changes / patches and then a developer that only understands their own game secondhand hitting things with the biggest nerf/buff hammer.

Urzigurumash

HiImRex wrote: »

No the average player’s understanding of the meta is always a good 2-3 months behind the actual state of the meta, these kinds of threads and outcry is why we have a never ending cycle of meta fixing itself over several incremental changes / patches and then a developer that only understands their own game secondhand hitting things with the biggest nerf/buff hammer.

I agree with your general idea but on this particular issue it's a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. This poll could also be titled

"The repercussions of the halving of HP Regen occurring at the same time Undeath's scaling and the World in Ruin passive were revised"

I was among the most vocal arguing against the halving of HP Regen, I was one of the few often saying that DK was underestimated before 2021. Not that I didn't get on board the buff train eventually.

But this poll was not, as you may insinuate, hastily conceived only within the ephemeral context of the current meta, with no regard for history or posterity.

edward_frigidhands

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Due to the Vampire Flame Damage Taken Penalty and the indispensability of Undeath

Just out of curiosity how did you arrive at the 13% mark?

the1andonlyskwex

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Due to the Vampire Flame Damage Taken Penalty and the indispensability of Undeath

Just out of curiosity how did you arrive at the 13% mark?

I assume it's because 13% is the amount of extra flame damage stage 3 vampires take.

Urzigurumash

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Due to the Vampire Flame Damage Taken Penalty and the indispensability of Undeath

Just out of curiosity how did you arrive at the 13% mark?

I assume it's because 13% is the amount of extra flame damage stage 3 vampires take.

Correct, if you read my last comment before this, that's really what I meant to discuss here. I've suspected there's particularly strong interaction between the 5% Damage Done of World in Ruin and the 13% Damage Taken of Vampirism.

By itself, what's stronger, Berserk or Vulnerability? Do certain variables determine which is stronger? I have no clue, being an ignorant and CMX-deprived console player, whose only understanding of damage calculations in this game is gleaned from threads in this forum from 2017 and 2018. I recall it was sometime in 2020 or 2021 when (some? all?) Damage Done buffs began to be reflected in tooltips. Which I don't understand, the damage is not yet.... done?

So the 13% figure was more to provoke discussion than a precise measurement of what I think is appropriate.