PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Pelanora

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is a complete insult to Sorcerers.

The buff to shields is completely inadequate - it is hardly anything at all, and health scaling doesn't help viability at all. We needed offensive stat based scaling - as we told you over and over - for it to be competitive with other classes healing as defense.

You've taken the only unique thing about Sorcs, Streak, made a straight up better version of the Ball of Lightning morph and given it to all classes with the new mistform. RIP the last vestiges of our class identity.

We still have zero in class access to offensive debuffs unlike everyone else, and minimal access to defensive buffs (and only on morphs that are otherwise poor and not used). Why do you - over and over - refuse to address this?

You also still refuse to address how badly the reliance on double barred pets with extremely low health, and that have a resummon time, and an AI that constantly gets them killed, holds Sorcerer back.

How can you miss the point of all the many feedback threads that we've created so badly?
Who do we have to complain to get Sorc seriously analyzed for fixes? Why is this ignored patch after patch? The feedback threads have been comprehensive and are being completely ignored by the combat team.

zos:

Do you have a lead position owning/responsible for Sorc? Is there actually someone accountable for the choices made on the class, reporting to the combat lead? Does the class have an advocate in the combat group?

virtus753

francesinhalover wrote: »

Manslayer49 wrote: »

This thing about pen being better than raw weapon damage in pve is a total myth as i have tested both on target dummies and the amount of damage is roughly the same.

does target dummy even have dmg resistance? with all the debuffs.

Yes, it does, but only barely. Major Breach (5948) + Minor Breach (2974) + infused 2-handed crusher enchant (2108) + Alkosh (6000) = 17,030. You have 1170 armor left to get through. Most players reach that very easily with Piercing CP (700) and a piece of light armor.

katorga

Tannus15 wrote: »

Manslayer49 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Manslayer49 wrote: »

People just dont realise just how much a 2 hand 1 bar build stamblade build using the oaken soul ring and full medium armor sucks with 8.5k weapon damage.

i was hoping they would do something to fix that in U37 but they did nothing.

i swear i hit daedroths in over land for 16k white damage with a heavy attack but against players its like 4.5k or less and this is without them blocking.

people say that the max resistence is 50% but these numbers suggest otherwise.

I think a lot of people are concerned with classes that may not do any better using 2 bars before even thinking about NB with 1 bar

well someone else brought up weapon damage is giving incorrect damage numbers in pvp nd im inclined to believe its true because the numbers dont add up.

im no mathemetician but if im hitting 16k on a mob that has 28% resist then 50% should be around 12 to 13k damage with a heavy attack against other players according to the the calculator i just used.

OMG DUDE you're comparing an EMPOWERED HEAVY ATTACK vs a MONSTER and a PLAYER



EMPOWER doesn't affect heavy attacks vs PLAYERS

oh there is a way

Turtle_Bot

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of comments, we would like to remind every that all posts are to be kept constructive, and within the rules. When providing feedback, if you already have a post, or thread, that you feel would be a helpful contribution, please feel free to link it, or even post it again here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

If you, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_MattFiror could pass this thread on to the combat/balance team that would help a lot for them to see a summary of what the urgent issues are surrounding the sorcerer class from the perspective of a sorcerer main who has discussed this at length with multiple other sorcerer mains.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626622/some-thoughts-on-the-proposed-changes-to-sorc-for-u37#latest

It goes over the 3 most prominent and immediate issues with the sorcerer class, that are hindering its capabilities in the game, particularly within PvP, but these issues also apply when trying to play the sorcerer class in pve that is not using the 2 niche builds: a heavy attack build or a pet focused build.
The first 2 issues listed in the thread especially, are the main issues that have kept being brought up every time I have talked with other sorcerer mains and those 2 issues affect all versions of the class (stamina, magicka and hybrid).
The 3rd issue is the latest and directly attributed to the rework of mist form that is stealing the last remaining niche sorcerers had in ESO, but it is still important because it directly exacerbates/compounds the first 2 issues that the class has and it completely invalidates the arguments made in the past that were against buffing sorcerer.
The new mist form also completely nullifies the entire sorc burst combo (something you are nerfing the warden's crystaline slab for doing in the current U36 patch).

I have also posted other threads on the forums that go much deeper into the issues with this class that have been ignored for years now and would be happy to link them (or send them via message), but this linked thread covers the bare minimum that needs to be done to modernize the class, especially since every class is essentially getting access to a better ball of lightning skill via the changes to mist form (which I do like btw, but it does create some serious issues surrounding balancing and class identity) so the argument that streak should hold the class back from getting buffs because of the better mobility it provides completely falls flat now (especially when considering how mobile NB already was before it also got the new mist form and that didn't stop NB from getting all the buffs in the world which made it completely overtuned).

I do hope you can pass this on and the team can properly consider this feedback when they go to make changes to sorcerer in the future, the class has been struggling for a long time now and not via numbers that can appear on a spreadsheet, but via the functionality of its abilities. Any time it has popped up in the meta, it was being hard carried by overpowered/bugged sets (savage werewolf, mara's balm and oakensoul, master's dual wield, etc) or out of class skills (resto staff line in U33 before its heavy nerf in U34).

Yamenstein

techprince wrote: »

The necromancer passive Death Gleaning should trigger off anything that dies within its vicinity, including their own pets, allies and enemies.

That’s a great idea! Just adjust the values to balance it.

AdamLAD

Pelanora wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is a complete insult to Sorcerers.

The buff to shields is completely inadequate - it is hardly anything at all, and health scaling doesn't help viability at all. We needed offensive stat based scaling - as we told you over and over - for it to be competitive with other classes healing as defense.

You've taken the only unique thing about Sorcs, Streak, made a straight up better version of the Ball of Lightning morph and given it to all classes with the new mistform. RIP the last vestiges of our class identity.

We still have zero in class access to offensive debuffs unlike everyone else, and minimal access to defensive buffs (and only on morphs that are otherwise poor and not used). Why do you - over and over - refuse to address this?

You also still refuse to address how badly the reliance on double barred pets with extremely low health, and that have a resummon time, and an AI that constantly gets them killed, holds Sorcerer back.

How can you miss the point of all the many feedback threads that we've created so badly?
Who do we have to complain to get Sorc seriously analyzed for fixes? Why is this ignored patch after patch? The feedback threads have been comprehensive and are being completely ignored by the combat team.

zos:

Do you have a lead position owning/responsible for Sorc? Is there actually someone accountable for the choices made on the class, reporting to the combat lead? Does the class have an advocate in the combat group?

I could do that job lol

CP5

I've mulled it over a bit, and despite the small handful of skills that are out of scope for this patch (things like wardens natures grasp and the psijic mend wounds) I'm not a fan of the Crystallized shield/Shimmering shield changes. The skill is a problem in pvp without a doubt, and refunding 2/3 it's cost when used to its full capacity is excessive. However, removing that sustain from the skill and increasing its cost makes it roughly 3.3x more expensive when used in ideal situations, where you're reliably mitigating 3 projectiles per cast. For pve, particularly on a tank but also on anyone not running incredibly high sustain, that's prohibitively expensive I feel and as that was one of the skills I most enjoyed using when it was useful because of how satisfying it was to use, now it feels like I'll almost always be better off picking something else that doesn't cost nearly as much.

Lucifer9th

sorcerer buff/change sugestion for iteration of pts to be on par with other class
Sorcerer identity is from the beginning a damage class as nightblade

1/Haunting Curse: need to be on level of other delayed ability as blastbones and deep fissure, i think the raw damage need to be 3600 (same as blastbone and second proc of deep fissure) and have access to a major debuff like these abilities, the major debuff can be major vulnerability for 5sec when the curse is apply, as status lightening proc minor vulnerability (it will reinforce the identity of sorcerer)
Curse can have the full damage only at the first impact and the half/third on the second impact

2/Bound aegis: rework, change the block bonus with a protection more versatile for all gameplay
the block bonus do not works with shield, it can be a heal over time or a reduction of damage to be used by all sorcerers

3/Crystal fragment: add a little stun of 2sec on crystal fragment to help magsorc to push burst when it hit because all abilities (curse exclude) are dodgeable and we can see the magical sorcerer burst is predictable
remove the cost reduction of the next ability after a crystal fragment

4/Defensive rune: rework to be a buff, it take a slot for a skill wich just apply a stun (just compare with artic blast), it can be a skill which give minor force for 20 sec to combine with minor prophecy and apply a small damage at the attacker every 2 sec (this will synergize with blood magic)

5/Damage Shield: reduce shield cost, cost too many for the effect, we run out of magic too quickly if we don't stack a lot of regen magie

arch1t3ct

Can someone from a combat team please explain why Grave Robber needed such a hard nerf if harmony got already nerfed? I agree this synergy combined with harmony was a little overtuned in some scenarios. But why nerfing both? What is the point of this synergy now if it now deals less damage than any spammble in the game?

PrinceShroob

I have no commentary on the current changes; I will note that the more limited balancing after Updates 35 and 36 is appreciated.

That said, I will note that the durations of several skills, such as Twisting Path and Burning Embers, should be adjusted to take duration-increasing passives into account. As it stands, they are asynchronous with similar skills such as Unstable Wall of Elements, and this seems to be unintentional (for example, Summon Shade was brought up to 20 seconds while ignoring that its duration was already 20 seconds with both ranks of the Dark Veil passive, causing its duration to now be 22 seconds).

Additionally, I am going to make a few notes regarding Warden skill change ideas from a thread last year, taking into account the combat team's apparent targeting of Warden changes at PvP builds.

I would alter Winter's Revenge into a 10-second skill and adjust its cost accordingly. See my point above about asynchronous durations.

I would alter Deep Fissure into 3-second-cadence delayed burst skill that deals frost damage and applies an Engulfing Flames-like effect for frost damage, which would naturally limit its effect on PvP by limiting how many frost damage skills Warden has access to and removing the problematic addition of Major and Minor Breach onto an area-of-effect high-damage skill. I believe that Engulfing Flames and Encratis-like effects for frost damage and shock damage are necessary for balance, even if they are not meta group considerations; it is enough that they would be part of the decision calculus. Also, given that Elemental Susceptibility applies Major Breach and Wall of Frost now applies Minor Breach, Deep Fissure having both is redundant.

I would alter Eternal Guardian into Polar Guardian; it would deal frost damage and inflict Chilled as Savage Guardian inflicts Hemorrhaging. However, it would no longer have increased execute scaling and would not automatically respawn after death. The power of such a morph would need to be monitored given that Wardens now deal increased Chilled damage. Ideally, it would be weaker than Savage Guardian unless you are using frost-focused sets like Frostbite, in which case it would be the clear choice.

I would also change Northern Storm to an area-targeted skill that inflicts Major Brittle rather than provides Major Protection.

With regard to Sorcerer, I have felt that it is odd that Summon Winged Twilight received an activated heal, as that means that Twilight Tormentor loses that functionality. Considering that Twilight Tormentor's reverse execute ability is largely relegated to a prebuff, perhaps Twilight Tormentor could passively provide its reverse execute scaling while only being able to heal itself and its summoner. Also, in line with the above suggestion regarding an Engulfing Flames-like effect for shock damage, I would like to request that Lightning Splash receive a similar benefit, increasing the target's shock damage taken by a percentage.

katorga

Lucifer9th wrote: »

sorcerer buff/change sugestion for iteration of pts to be on par with other class
Sorcerer identity is from the beginning a damage class as nightblade

1/Haunting Curse: need to be on level of other delayed ability as blastbones and deep fissure, i think the raw damage need to be 3600 (same as blastbone and second proc of deep fissure) and have access to a major debuff like these abilities, the major debuff can be major vulnerability for 5sec when the curse is apply, as status lightening proc minor vulnerability (it will reinforce the identity of sorcerer)
Curse can have the full damage only at the first impact and the half/third on the second impact

2/Bound aegis: rework, change the block bonus with a protection more versatile for all gameplay
the block bonus do not works with shield, it can be a heal over time or a reduction of damage to be used by all sorcerers

3/Crystal fragment: add a little stun of 2sec on crystal fragment to help magsorc to push burst when it hit because all abilities (curse exclude) are dodgeable and we can see the magical sorcerer burst is predictable
remove the cost reduction of the next ability after a crystal fragment

4/Defensive rune: rework to be a buff, it take a slot for a skill wich just apply a stun (just compare with artic blast), it can be a skill which give minor force for 20 sec to combine with minor prophecy and apply a small damage at the attacker every 2 sec (this will synergize with blood magic)

5/Damage Shield: reduce shield cost, cost too many for the effect, we run out of magic too quickly if we don't stack a lot of regen magie

Sorc:

Haunting curse - same damage as current Blastbones

Bound Aegis - completely replace the skill. It is just terrible all around. Maybe convert to health scaling burst heal.

Bound Armaments - at least 80% of the Damage of Merciless Resolve (4 LA vs 5 LA)

Crystal Frag - 1000 penetration on base morph, proc cast does 70% more damage keep "next ability in 3s costs 10% less"

Crystal Weapon - 5s of 10% increased damage on second proc. Remove "next ability in 3s costs 10% less"

Hurricane - passive minor expedition while slotted

Mines - revert prior nerf

Damage Shield - convert the regen morph from damage shield to a burst heal or add a large hot while shield holds

Ball of Lightning - Remove or reduce stacking cost penalty to differentiate from new elusive mist.

Defensive Rune - Stun attacker every 20s for duration of the buff

Atronarch - self synergy

Matriarch Pet - reduce size to non-combat pet size, or maybe double size of non-combat pet

Necro:

Blastbones - increase damage by amount removed from Avid Boneyard to compensate for high rate of skill failure.

Flame Skull - 15% passive movement speed, 5s of 10% increased damage every third cast

Venom Skull - 100% crit chance every 3rd cast.

Class passive Major Sorcery/Brutality while a pet is active

Colossus Ultimate counts as pet for sets and passives.

Death Knell passive: 10% crit rate for having a Gravelord ability slotted.

Templar:

Jabs/Sweeps - revert nerfs and animation changes.

Probably some other stuff, but I don't play this one enough any more to know.

Warden:

Don't play it at all. No opinions.

NB:

Functionally perfect. No changes.

DK:

Functionally perfect. No changes.

Major/Minor Buffs

Minor sorcery, brutality, prophecy and savagery need to be hyridized to apply crit rate instead of just spell or weapon crit.

Hybridize spell/weapon power potions.

TechMaybeHic

Dekrypted wrote: »

PoTL/PL does no damage. Please don't ignore this for another 3 months. Just saying here as well because I wanna make sure everyone everywhere knows. (when battle spirit is active, no matter how much spell damage you have and i've seen builds with 12k spell dmg hit other players for 3 to 4k. No they weren't tanks, yes there is an actual problem with the skill in pvp.


#JusticeForTemplars

This!

I keep worrying they have every templar complaints lumped in as "they just don't like change with Jabs". No; Backlash does not scale up with battle spirit! It's a real issue

Pelanora

AdamLAD wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is a complete insult to Sorcerers.

The buff to shields is completely inadequate - it is hardly anything at all, and health scaling doesn't help viability at all. We needed offensive stat based scaling - as we told you over and over - for it to be competitive with other classes healing as defense.

You've taken the only unique thing about Sorcs, Streak, made a straight up better version of the Ball of Lightning morph and given it to all classes with the new mistform. RIP the last vestiges of our class identity.

We still have zero in class access to offensive debuffs unlike everyone else, and minimal access to defensive buffs (and only on morphs that are otherwise poor and not used). Why do you - over and over - refuse to address this?

You also still refuse to address how badly the reliance on double barred pets with extremely low health, and that have a resummon time, and an AI that constantly gets them killed, holds Sorcerer back.

How can you miss the point of all the many feedback threads that we've created so badly?
Who do we have to complain to get Sorc seriously analyzed for fixes? Why is this ignored patch after patch? The feedback threads have been comprehensive and are being completely ignored by the combat team.

zos:

Do you have a lead position owning/responsible for Sorc? Is there actually someone accountable for the choices made on the class, reporting to the combat lead? Does the class have an advocate in the combat group?

I could do that job lol

We are a cohort of customers, we sorc, and there should be a customer/ sorc lead. That person should be working the relationship with the customers, as well as lead design on sorc combat etc.

Id like to know from zos they do have this.

Pelanora

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of comments, we would like to remind every that all posts are to be kept constructive, and within the rules. When providing feedback, if you already have a post, or thread, that you feel would be a helpful contribution, please feel free to link it, or even post it again here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

If you, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_MattFiror could pass this thread on to the combat/balance team that would help a lot for them to see a summary of what the urgent issues are surrounding the sorcerer class from the perspective of a sorcerer main who has discussed this at length with multiple other sorcerer mains.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626622/some-thoughts-on-the-proposed-changes-to-sorc-for-u37#latest

It goes over the 3 most prominent and immediate issues with the sorcerer class, that are hindering its capabilities in the game, particularly within PvP, but these issues also apply when trying to play the sorcerer class in pve that is not using the 2 niche builds: a heavy attack build or a pet focused build.
The first 2 issues listed in the thread especially, are the main issues that have kept being brought up every time I have talked with other sorcerer mains and those 2 issues affect all versions of the class (stamina, magicka and hybrid).
The 3rd issue is the latest and directly attributed to the rework of mist form that is stealing the last remaining niche sorcerers had in ESO, but it is still important because it directly exacerbates/compounds the first 2 issues that the class has and it completely invalidates the arguments made in the past that were against buffing sorcerer.
The new mist form also completely nullifies the entire sorc burst combo (something you are nerfing the warden's crystaline slab for doing in the current U36 patch).

I have also posted other threads on the forums that go much deeper into the issues with this class that have been ignored for years now and would be happy to link them (or send them via message), but this linked thread covers the bare minimum that needs to be done to modernize the class, especially since every class is essentially getting access to a better ball of lightning skill via the changes to mist form (which I do like btw, but it does create some serious issues surrounding balancing and class identity) so the argument that streak should hold the class back from getting buffs because of the better mobility it provides completely falls flat now (especially when considering how mobile NB already was before it also got the new mist form and that didn't stop NB from getting all the buffs in the world which made it completely overtuned).

I do hope you can pass this on and the team can properly consider this feedback when they go to make changes to sorcerer in the future, the class has been struggling for a long time now and not via numbers that can appear on a spreadsheet, but via the functionality of its abilities. Any time it has popped up in the meta, it was being hard carried by overpowered/bugged sets (savage werewolf, mara's balm and oakensoul, master's dual wield, etc) or out of class skills (resto staff line in U33 before its heavy nerf in U34).

And tell us that you have done it, and tell us what the response is.

ZOS_Kevin

@Pelanora the combat team is actively reading this thread and working through feedback from everyone.

acastanza_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Pelanora the combat team is actively reading this thread and working through feedback from everyone.

Hopefully they will finally come to the conclusion that the Sorcerer toolkit needs serious improvements for the current state of the game and that we are no longer playing in a pre-murkmire meta.

Thanks for taking the time to actually say something though!

Pelanora

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Pelanora the combat team is actively reading this thread and working through feedback from everyone.

Nice, thanks.

Sorc: Burst heal, redo passives, balanced better access to buffs, lighting staff not worse than other staffs for sorc, land that damn bird when not in combat.

🙂

ForumBully

If anyone thinks they're actually going to abandon a change to a skill that has an animation change as well, get ready for some bad news. Time spent changing the animation is going live and the mist form change is coming.
However, I hope the dev team recognizes that long gone are the days when a 7 light armor Sorc was the tankiest thing on Nirn. The times have changed and if you want to strengthen Magsorc like it desperately needs, pay attention to the conversation about how shields worked pre Murkmire

Cloudrest

@ZOS_Kevin Could we Templars please get some answers about Backlash and morphs in PvP? The ability does not seem to be scaling with Battlespirit, as it's hitting for 3k or so under ideal conditions, when it should be hitting for much harder. At least an acknowledgement that it's being looked into would be appreciated. As it stands, Templar has no burst damage and jabs are left in a rather poor spot in PvP.

Here's some numbers from a fight today that uses the same build I used last patch that managed to hit a 27k PL crit. THE SAME BUILD is barely hitting 3k PL's fully stacked. As you can see here, the final hit is hitting as much as the initial hit. The ability is useless in terms of burst potential. It shouldn't be hitting for 20k+ like it was last patch, but 8k-16k on a fully optimized build when fully stacked would be reasonable.

Manslayer49

honestly i think a good change would be to change executioner for 2 hander where it does its full damage when the target is below 25% hp.

i also feel like 2 hander needs some love all around besides just giving wrecking blow major berserk.

one thing i think they should do for 2 hander is change critical rush to a bleed damage over time and remove the guaranteed crit from it.

Pelanora

ForumBully wrote: »

If anyone thinks they're actually going to abandon a change to a skill that has an animation change as well, get ready for some bad news. Time spent changing the animation is going live and the mist form change is coming.

That's because they start consultation too late in the whole process. Consultation starts with the discussion of the problem, not with proposals of solutions. The consultation is to agree the problem is well understood first, rather than just how to tweak and improve the proposed solution. That way everyone can be sure a proposed solution is to the right problem or a problem rightly understood, and therefore, is likely to work.

And that's your point, forumbully, i think:

"The times have changed and if you want to strengthen Magsorc like it desperately needs, pay attention to the conversation about how shields worked pre Murkmire"

Grand reveals for the chapter is fine, for combat changes, it doesn't work.

Consultation goes: propose issues, discuss; propose solutions, discuss; implement; discuss results.

Aldoss

Manslayer49 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Manslayer49 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Manslayer49 wrote: »

People just dont realise just how much a 2 hand 1 bar build stamblade build using the oaken soul ring and full medium armor sucks with 8.5k weapon damage.

i was hoping they would do something to fix that in U37 but they did nothing.

i swear i hit daedroths in over land for 16k white damage with a heavy attack but against players its like 4.5k or less and this is without them blocking.

people say that the max resistence is 50% but these numbers suggest otherwise.

I think a lot of people are concerned with classes that may not do any better using 2 bars before even thinking about NB with 1 bar

well someone else brought up weapon damage is giving incorrect damage numbers in pvp nd im inclined to believe its true because the numbers dont add up.

im no mathemetician but if im hitting 16k on a mob that has 28% resist then 50% should be around 12 to 13k damage with a heavy attack against other players according to the the calculator i just used.

Have to knock off 50% from battle spirit as well. Then many will have minor protection if not major

yea i looked it up and the reason why tanky builds are so broken in pvp vs dps builds wich are pretty much unviable is because of the 50% reduced damage.

I just think that was a very poor decision by zos and probably why dks are so op in pvp because they have tankiness in pvp they normaly wouldnt have in pve.


medium armor is just trash in pvp so ive decided to just stack as much armor as i can to serve as a buffer against people that have 18k pen and just abuse the crap out of undeath.

that seems to be the meta for basicly being nigh unkillable.

Medium armor is not trash in PvP. It sounds like you're on the right track toward learning and progressing. Don't let the frustration wear you down. The challenge of eso PvP is EXACTLY why so many of us are so passionate about preserving it!

I have a build in 6 medium that has 37k hp, 37k armor, 5k wep dmg, 24k pen, and major + minor evasion, and I'm using all crafted gear, excluding death dealer's fete. I Dizzying swing people for 7k. Build creation is all about choosing the compromises that you can adapt to. In a game as complex as eso's combat, you'll never be exceptional by going all in to one stat like weapon damage. You sacrifice so much going from 5k-6k and that exponentially increases against you the higher you try to push it without help from teammates.

Good luck. You're on the right track.

ForumBully

Pelanora wrote: »

Grand reveals for the chapter is fine, for combat changes, it doesn't work.

Consultation goes: propose issues, discuss; propose solutions, discuss; implement; discuss results.

Absolutely this. It's been the dominant development problem with ZOS since the beginning. No lessons are ever learned and the next drastic shift in combat will be kept under wraps until it's too late to discuss.

AdamLAD

@ZOS_Kevin If you are reading the comments for feedback, then it's really appreciated. Genuinely, I have no idea if the team takes ideas from the community or not. However I have played Sorcerer at the highest level for years. I have experience and I have and extremely good understanding of how the class works. ESO in general. Whilst appreciative of the buff to Sorcerers shield its simply not enough to complete with other classes who can just stack everything into Health and go full weapon and spell damage. Bearing in mind weapon and spell damage is already in terms of raw power more effective than maximum stats. Builds typically now in PvP outside magicka sorcerer have over 30k Health at minimum. Some even have upwards of 35 to 40k whilst still maintaining 6 to 7k weapon damage on top of 30k resistances. This places Sorcerer who still needs max magicka for shield scaling at a immediate disadvantage due to shields not scaling with weapon/spell damage. Not just this, in the past the team specifically stated that shields could be applied before combat. True in the past but now a flawed approach. Here is why, to have any significant shield to protect our smaller HP pools than the rest of the class's we must stack them. This costs alot of magicka and two global cool downs that's even if they cast in lag. Now any other class who has a high HP pool already technically has a sheild on them immediately at all times as the HP is THAT high. The reason I'm stating this is also due to the idea that shields are an extention of HP. Which then in turn means higher HP technically already has shields applied without even having shields on. By definition you could theoretically say a 40k HP player could have 20k HP and a 20k ward which would equal to 40kHP. You understand my logic. However shields need to be applied and HP doesn't which is a disadvantage.

To further help understand why shields are just simply inferior to everything by a large margin is the fact Healing can also critically strike and not just once but multiple times my pressing one skill if its a HoT. And since they can critically strike that also means Critical modifiers will also work on them ON TOP of the already superior weapon and spell damage scaling. To add insult to injury Healing scales from both max stats and damage. Unlike shields who only scale from one stat,max magicka. I could also say that there are way more ways to buff Healing in the game due to major, minor buffs (Vitality ect) and set based % increases such as Healing taken/done by 4% ect. CP nodes are way more powerful in terms of healing because of this vs the pitiful ones we have for shields.

We are simply pigeonholed into running full max magicka due to all of this. We can't use infused damage glyphs, we can't use weapon and spell damage sets, we cannot use heavy armour if we want to stack shields, we cannot use medium armour. We are forced into using light armour. Which has the lowest defence in the game and we already use the lowest defence in the game with shields. I could go further into it and even say nirnhoned ect is significantly weaker on a shield than Healing. Simply because it buffs Healing and not shields. There's so many different things that just continusly adds insult to injury. I could name so many more I could list such as the fact shields are highest costing defensive ability in the game.

I'm only addressing the defence capabilities of a sorcerer. I could go on about the fact next patch. That nearly all of a burst and skills are countered by so many things. Rolldoge counters all our projectiles, so does stealth. Cleansing will completely mitigate our burst potential due to curse and execute being cleansed. And next patch mist form will also mitigate 3 of our projectiles. What even is the point.

I have many ideas as to what could be changed as a veteran of the class. However shall allow the team to do it there way with the information I have given. I shall hope we get further buffs to compete with other classes in this current climate.

master_vanargand

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Pelanora the combat team is actively reading this thread and working through feedback from everyone.

Thank you for at least looking at the player's opinion.
We believe in creators once more.
But remember, our trust is already at the bottom.

Turtle_Bot

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Pelanora the combat team is actively reading this thread and working through feedback from everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to read and listen to the feedback provided. I do hope the thread I linked in my previous post in this thread is discussed and taken on board. I say this is because every change made to sorcerer over the past few years has been either a band-aid overbuff that has broken the class only to have it gutted even harsher the following patch (U34 crystal weapon) or only reinforced the class into its very niche builds that only a few people actually enjoy playing (daedric prey + pets) or into a build that can be run on any class, often better than on sorc itself (heavy attacks).

As I mentioned, I do have other, more in depth threads posted to the forums that I would be happy to also forward to you if required for a further break down of individual abilities and passives, but the linked thread should provide enough information to start with on how the sorcerer class is actually struggling to compete with the other classes in the modern game and should provide the direction that needs to be taken when looking into solutions to fix/update the class to help it become viable in the long term.

Aldoss

My thoughts: PvP perspective only

Meh.

There's some good stuff in this notes, but as always, there's stuff that just make me wonder wtf game the devs are playing.

Harmony Nerf:

Honestly I have no idea why this was done. Like obviously harmony was heavily relied upon by ball groups, and normally I'm all for nerfing ball groups, but this nerf is dreadful. This trait was honestly so fun to mess around with and actively encouraged cooperation between players. No one is using harmony for the stats. They use it for the damage.

This change single handedly removes harmony from the game.

Necro:

Seriously what the hell is happening? Nerfing the bonus from harmony IN THE SAME PATCH THAT YOU NERF GRAVE ROBBER INTO THE GROUND?! I have no words for this.

This is a huge slap in the face for all magcros, of which I'm not one. Necro might just win the title of worst PvP class next patch, barely eeking it away from sorc.

Sorc:

These notes resemble a rough idea from a 5min brainstorming session. They are hardly adequate for a 6 month span of time where sorc has been arguably the worst PvP class in the game. Sorcs deserve better than this.

I'm not a sorc, but being fairly experienced on PvP in this game, I'm still shocked at how few buffs sorcs get in their class kit and how most of their heals don't have any scaling what so ever. Dark Deal is a static number heal. Critical Surge is a static heal. I have no idea how long the heal has been unadjusted, but I'd wager it hasn't been adjusted in multiple years. There's been so much raw damage added to the game in just the last year alone. These two healing sources all but require magsorcs to run a twilight in order to gain access to a burst heal, which removes two bar slots and can also die very quickly, because again, I don't think the matriarchs hp has been adjusted in years.

Sorc deserves better. I hope you have something better to show in week 2. This is just pitiful.

Warden:

Crystal Slab was a huge carey and definitely needed the nerf. The Ice Wall change is not a good one though. You were doing so well at helping ice dmg be taken seriously as a dps option. This change reverts back to the old logic that ice = tank. Minor breach is already sourced easily from sundered procs. There's no reason to include it on ice wall. Take the immobilize away. Fine. But replace the minor breach with something that improves dmg against chilled enemies.

DKs:

This honestly seems like a joke. DK is truly the chosen golden child of this combat team. DJ k seriously has everything going for it. It needed some serious adjustments to bring it back in line and patch after patch it just somehow gets better and better. PvP is like 50% DKs. BGs are littered with them, and for good reason.

I'm disappointed to see yet another patch where DK reigns supreme. Their sheer numbers are only making this tank meta worse.



Might have more thoughts later, but these patch notes are still proof that this combat team is horribly absent from the state of the game, at least when it comes to.pvp. Sad to have this happen again.

mmtaniac

Templar overall
Jabs - pve work / pvp not work not enough damage even with good weapon damage it feels just weak and bad compared to other spammables, snare is useless ,i would like to see Immobilize immune buff for 1-2 second for us on jabs it would be better and work always. Slow i would take from somewhere.

POTL - pve work perfect / pvp not enough damage with 9k weapon damage + 18k armor penetration i deal 3k damage, is this real? Minor breach is lacking , change to major or give minor or major vulnerability and remove breach at all.

Burning light is little overnerfed i bet new class will have similiar passive that deal 100% more damage. With combo sequence to activate.

Purge lost his value , first Warden, now Mara, why!?

I return to passives like Illuminate and Prism why they are seperate when they can be one passive?! I give you example: MOUNTAIN BLESSING PASSIVE FROM DRAGONKNIGHT IS IDENTICAL!

Soulgem passive why? Who thought this is good idea ,ok it can stay but add some extra usefull part to that i don't know maybe + 8% extra passive healing or something else that work always as a passive not passive usefull only on trails and dungeons.

Repentence and Restoring aura it's good thing but lacking :

Repentence require corpses , templar can't create corpses from the nothing like necromancer so change it to something that not require corpses or just corpses thing make as secondary part of this ability with something else as a main part that grant templar some buff. Ok this ability have buff but it's another but it's work on one bar only so it's useless mostly because it's mostly on secondary bar.

Restoring aura is good but lack something maybe put here Major Brutality/Sorcery, i expect maybe too much but looking at DK's and how they are treated i don't think so.
With this ,remove Major Brutality/Sorcery from Jabs and put them something else maybe some unique debuff that reduce armor something like reduce 450 armor per stack maximum stack 10 times. This way templar will get his dose of penetration and it will buff jabs.

Ok that all for now i want to tell.

TechMaybeHic

I wasn't going to bother posting all of this as I have so many doubts about the feedback; but someone asked elsewhere so figured I can copy paste here

"What's wrong with Templar" (as far as since update 35)

As a templar; I'll go against the grain and say the jabs change for damage is really not that bad. Ugly. But it hits more per jab before but less total and I find if you miss 1 now by missing the 3rd, you had a good chance of missing both the 3rd and 4th poke before so your 2 actually hit harder.

What people are missing is when burning light only worked on spear abilities; not only did burning light hit harder by 25/30% (depending on if you're adding or subtracting) it procs 50% less than it did on jabs. So we are talking about 80% reduction.

So while yes; jabs now match tooltip data, and burning light was often mentioned as being OP for extra damage; the disadvantage always existed with missed attacks, evasion reduction, AND; jabs is mitigated by TWO cp stars where most direct spammables are impacted by 1. And the AOE splash damage is really quite weak to draw such impact as it's more like splash damage

Another problem is the popularity of Maras Balm. Jabs applying a snare every .5 seconds makes it mitigate itself by Maras heal going off on cool down.


But the bigger problem is Backlash and it's morph Prophecy of the Light and Purifying Light. It used to fully require damage to target once applied to build it's delayed burst damage. It was changed to guarantee a minimum burst then scale the rest from damage to supposedly get close to it's total before. Sounds good to raise the floor. Tooltip makes it appear to be the case. In practice however; you get nowhere near in battle spirit enabled areas. Generally it winds up being 3k damage for anyone, and if you go full glass cannon, you might hit 5k on non-tanky targets. A far cry from other burst abilities.

My suspicion is battle spirit is accounted for in the damage copied AND the final explosion so it's getting double reduced. A problem had with the original years ago, yet at that time; it copied allies damage as well at least. Now, it's the templars alone

ForumBully

I don't know what they're going to do for Templar, probably nothing. They're committed to the bad animation. Even if they buff PotL, I don't want to use jabs anymore in PvP. I suppose I could go with rangleplar again if the skill set gets better for that. They literally killed the class by crippling jabs and releasing Maras in PvP. It's a bad spammable and they've got a set that cancels out the bad spammable.

I still play my Sorc and it's sad, but I don't even play my Templar.