Genuine question: Why add a cc set that doesn't give cc immunity?

Skoomah

React wrote: »

Here are some rush of agony CMX reports from a couple hours of duo nightblade PVP. Imagine how much higher that proc goes in larger groups with more buffs & debuffs. This is just wearing rallying/rushing/balorgh/markyn.

Again, I honestly don't have an issue with the damage itself. But that damage on top of the AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity? It is simply too strong. The pull needs to grant immunity. They could even compensate by making the damage happen after 1 second rather than 2 for more consistent AOE bursts, but the broken mechanic of pulling without applying immunity needs to go.









Here is the set proccing on a 12 man coordinated ball group without anyone else hitting/sieging them or buffing me.

So what you’re saying is that your duo nightblades couldn’t defeat a well coordinated large group of players that layer heals and time damage to all hit at the same time?

I mean, sounds about right to me. Cyrodiil is meant for large group play and coordinated damage, heals, set and skill selection.

React

Skoomah wrote: »

React wrote: »

Here are some rush of agony CMX reports from a couple hours of duo nightblade PVP. Imagine how much higher that proc goes in larger groups with more buffs & debuffs. This is just wearing rallying/rushing/balorgh/markyn.

Again, I honestly don't have an issue with the damage itself. But that damage on top of the AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity? It is simply too strong. The pull needs to grant immunity. They could even compensate by making the damage happen after 1 second rather than 2 for more consistent AOE bursts, but the broken mechanic of pulling without applying immunity needs to go.









Here is the set proccing on a 12 man coordinated ball group without anyone else hitting/sieging them or buffing me.

So what you’re saying is that your duo nightblades couldn’t defeat a well coordinated large group of players that layer heals and time damage to all hit at the same time?

I mean, sounds about right to me. Cyrodiil is meant for large group play and coordinated damage, heals, set and skill selection.

That isn't what I'm saying at all? Did you even read what I wrote?

The ball group screenshot, which was only the last screenshot and which I specified was just me solo with no external buffs, was simply to show how hard the set still hits even against some of the tankiest targets.

I even specified in that post that it isn't the damage I'm worried about, but the fact that it hits so hard on top of the no-immunity pull is too much.

Again, the set should apply cc immunity just like convergence, chains, leash, beckoning armor, etc.

TechMaybeHic

Sometimes posts are so cringe, it's best not to acknowledge them. Rarely is it 2 in a row, but still you must try. No good can come from it

Skoomah

I respectfully disagree with the recommendation.

1. I think it’s a learn to play issue.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

React

Skoomah wrote: »

I respectfully disagree with the recommendation.

1. I think it’s a learn to play issue.

2. All the fun sets and aspects in the game keep getting random people bitching and complaining until everything is “balanced”. Then you guys turn around and *** and complain about how everything is so bland and boring.

3. How about spending time recommending something else other than nerfs?

Super fun and unique gameplay having a set ignore a core combat mechanic and allow for double CCs/the ability to lock people out of their character control for longer than what should be possible. The counterplay literally is "be cc inmune". Completely inadequate.

So far, I've recognized that multiple people defending this set here use it constantly. Pander uses it on multiple werewolves in her group. Garion uses it in his BG group. You (skoomah) use it in your BG group. Ofcourse81 is a member of pander's/other 12 man groups that use this set.

Honestly it's understandable why you wouldn't want to lose it when the set does SO much, but at least have the integrity to admit that it is completely broken.

If you genuinely think that an AOE pull without CC immunity and a 10k AOE damage proc attached to it is balanced, I guess we have drastically different opinions on balance.

blktauna

My issue is that in the lagfest of cyrodil, CC immunity is a lie on the best of days.

This set greys my bar and I'm dead from basically nowhere. Now that block is even more inconsistent, you can't count on that. You can't see rush on the floor, at least I can't so boom. When I manage to evade, my bar is still greyed out for some seconds so dead...

Not fun.

Kartalin

React wrote: »

Again, the set should apply cc immunity just like convergence, chains, leash, beckoning armor, etc.

Convergence applies a 1 second stun on pull, that's why it provides cc immunity. Rushing agony does not, it pulls you and you can keep on keeping on. Some groups use multiple sets of this so that you ping pong around a bit, but it does not stun you.

The larger question I think you should be trying to attack is whether the act of being relocated is a cc in and of itself, because it is not currently.



I'm not sure how relocation being considered a cc would change things but I suspect dark convergence would lose its stun which I would take as a victory although solo bombers would hate it. Not sure how rushing agony would be affected beyond that.

We usually escape solo bombers pretty well now but there was this one guy using volcanic rune to proc dark convergence who was pretty good. I suspect it will still be pretty good after any changes could be made.

React

Kartalin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Again, the set should apply cc immunity just like convergence, chains, leash, beckoning armor, etc.

Convergence applies a 1 second stun on pull, that's why it provides cc immunity. Rushing agony does not, it pulls you and you can keep on keeping on. Some groups use multiple sets of this so that you ping pong around a bit, but it does not stun you.

Unrelenting grip, silver leash, beckoning armor, frozen gate, and swarm mother all pull without "stunning" and grant CC immunity.

Kartalin wrote: »

The larger question I think you should be trying to attack is whether the act of being relocated is a cc in and of itself, because it is not currently.

Sure, we can address that. Every pull in the game aside from rushing agony applies CC immunity. They are, and should be considered CCs because you temporarily lose character functionality while affected by them. This includes rushing agony - there is a brief period where you lose character functionality while being pulled by it. Not to mention, the ability to alter someone's location in this manner is by itself, extremely strong.

Kartalin wrote: »

I'm not sure how relocation being considered a cc would change things but I suspect dark convergence would lose its stun which I would take as a victory although solo bombers would hate it. Not sure how rushing agony would be affected beyond that.

Relocation is a CC in every case except for rushing agony.

To be clear, the entire reason this set is too strong is because it doesn't give CC immunity. It stacks you with other players making you susceptible to to AOEs/ults, takes away your character functionality briefly, and has a delayed proc which then can be lined up seamlessly with an ult or a hard CC.

Forcing it to act like every other pull and apply CC immunity will allow victims of the set to counterplay by blocking or moving away from whatever follow up is lined up for after the pull, but it will still be an extremely strong set and can instead be combined with roots to maximize its effectiveness.

TechMaybeHic

I React much more in forums than in game.

Kartalin

So if we believe relocation is a cc then we need to tell devs that. Add cc to rushing agony (does it trigger slippery and how does that affect it) and remove the additional stun from dark convergence

Kartalin

Would the slippery cp star prevent the relocation? I think that would be a good application of it if it could be made to function that way.

fred4

I got 1v1 ganked with Rush of Agony once. Can confirm it hits harder than you'd think. Up to 10K sounds about right. I use Miat's, which makes a sound when you get ganked. My response is to dodge roll. Wrong response. Got incapped after the dodge roll, CCd, executed with Whirlwind and hit with the proc all in one GCD. The two second delay sounds on paper like it mitigates the power of the proc in PvP. In reality it enables burst stacking.

Having said that, I do not encounter the set much, but I also do not PvP a lot anymore and hardly ever do BGs. I've wondered whether blocking or double dodge rolling would be the correct response, at least to avoid dodgeable Incap. I've also felt possibly immune to Dark Convergence on my Snow Treader-wearing stamsorc. There may, thus, technically be a counter, although I could very well be wrong about that.

IncultaWolf

It's balanced, in such a tanky meta, sets like this are needed. Until they nerf things like the undeath passive, it should be left alone.

sharquez

That's a lot of thread(s?) to push the agenda gut a set that was specifically and purposefully designed to do this one specific thing, which is gather up players and not apply CC for the best possible bombs at high risk to the user.

Can we leave this one alone? Just this one. The powers that be have ripped every fun and interesting playstyle out of the game because people tilt when they die in PVP instead of accepting it as part of the process.

Sergykid

sharquez wrote: »

That's a lot of thread(s?) to push the agenda gut a set that was specifically and purposefully designed to do this one specific thing, which is gather up players and not apply CC for the best possible bombs at high risk to the user.

Can we leave this one alone? Just this one. The powers that be have ripped every fun and interesting playstyle out of the game because people tilt when they die in PVP instead of accepting it as part of the process.

don't ask for this set to be left alone because that implies the set is guilty, while it doesn't have problem.
anything hits hard on weak players, it can't be used as an undercover excuse against things some don't like.
there's more amount and more awful problems that should get the attention than this set that is not only balanced but also has easy counters.

TechMaybeHic

No, this set is not OP. It's broken because it breaks the rule that was out in place to keep the game fun. DC really is only better because it does the stun to then cause CC immunity after used so you can't just chain another right after

That's the problem. This set is used to pull people way outside of a dark con proc, to then be pulled again, and then stunned. That is 3 loss of character control in a row, and that is a regular occurrence on a nightly basis. It's possible to even do more but probably not as probable


Its absolutely broken and really; neither set should have been a thing. People came back when performance in PC NA was acceptable briefly; then promptly left because the gameplay this makes even in good performance. In bad, it's even worse as the multiple pulls cause position desync and breaks break free issues I'm guessing as people are trying to break free through 2 pulls and a stun that doesn't save them until the stun is complete and break free has an animation you can't cancel because...your stunned

Its not good for the game

sharquez

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No, this set is not OP. It's broken because it breaks the rule that was out in place to keep the game fun. ~etc.

How can a mechanic that is in many of the most popular arguably balanced (because this is subjective) and competitive games be broken?

Most fantasy/scifi oriented competitive multiplayer games have some version of this ability.
And its usually vastly more punishing. with stacking respawn timers and lack of cc break or counterplay beyond don't be there when it goes off.

Overwatch has a couple characters that do a pull
No cc break or immunity.

DOTA 2 has many many characters with an AOE pull
very limited cc break or immunity.

New World has the Great Axe Gravity Well
No CC immunity that I recall.

Smite has a bunch of pulls
very limited CC break and immunity

Certainly LOL and HOTS, and a dozen other games I cant even think of have some,

But for ESO it's broken?

Not having block work for two months THAT's Broken

It's fine for the game it's just not good for you.

TechMaybeHic

sharquez wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No, this set is not OP. It's broken because it breaks the rule that was out in place to keep the game fun. ~etc.

How can a mechanic that is in many of the most popular arguably balanced (because this is subjective) and competitive games be broken?

Most fantasy/scifi oriented competitive multiplayer games have some version of this ability.
And its usually vastly more punishing. with stacking respawn timers and lack of cc break or counterplay beyond don't be there when it goes off.

Overwatch has a couple characters that do a pull
No cc break or immunity.

DOTA 2 has many many characters with an AOE pull
very limited cc break or immunity.

New World has the Great Axe Gravity Well
No CC immunity that I recall.

Smite has a bunch of pulls
very limited CC break and immunity

Certainly LOL and HOTS, and a dozen other games I cant even think of have some,

But for ESO it's broken?

Not having block work for two months THAT's Broken

It's fine for the game it's just not good for you.

You lack an argument when you go outside the game. They are irrelevant and not even MMOs

This game, with no CDs, pulls always granted CC immunity

Sergykid

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

No, this set is not OP. It's broken because it breaks the rule that was out in place to keep the game fun. DC really is only better because it does the stun to then cause CC immunity after used so you can't just chain another right after

it doesn't stun. If u cast abilities or move, it doesn't stop u.
does it interrupt cast time abilities like sorc conversion? if in cp does it proc the auto break free cp? there was a set that procced on stun to auto break free and give u a buff, does that work too? etc

it's just a few meters movement that can fail cuz target immune too and also gets cooldown

ketsparrowhawk

Skoomah wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

The 8 second cooldown on the set’s proc is a cooldown for the set already. What’s the point of adding CC immunity to it when CC immunity lasts just as long?

Because it is CC'ing you. When you get CC'd you're supposed to get CC immunity afterwards.

Being yanked out of position is hugely disruptive and you SHOULD get CC immunity when that happens. If a DK pulls you in with their chains, they don't have the option to fossilize you afterwards because you will be CC immune. They can immobilize you with talons, but not hard stun.

But if you get pulled with Rush.. you just got yanked out of your safe position and are now unable to defend yourself because you have no CC immunity. Often the wearer has Dawnbreaker ready to stun you with as soon as the pull is finished. Sorcs will pull with Rush, then when you move away they streak to stun you in place. Multiple people will wear the set in a squad so as to "ping-pong" enemies back and forth. It's abused in a number of ways and I do see it daily. The set is indefensible.

MEBengalsFan2001

Skoomah wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

I rarely come across Rush of Agony in daily PvP, and when I do, I simply walk away from the pull like how I walk away from dark convergence or any other CC. The 8 second cooldown on the set’s proc is a cooldown for the set already. What’s the point of adding CC immunity to it when CC immunity lasts just as long?

If the set’s damage is what you’re worried about then I’m not sure you’re building your character right… I mean, have you seen how tanky this meta is? It’s overly tanky in no CP environments. With CPs, Rush of Agony’s damage doesn’t make a dent, especially with players that build for mobility and can tank 5 players and still turn around hit hard.

It only impacts the player who just hit the targets with Rush of Agony. Get 2-3 players running it and one player running Dark Convergence which results in 3-4 pulls. If you are also hit by plague break or die from VD it becomes similar to what we saw when DC first came out.

sharquez

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You lack an argument when you go outside the game. They are irrelevant and not even MMOs

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

TechMaybeHic

sharquez wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You lack an argument when you go outside the game. They are irrelevant and not even MMOs

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

GTA has cars. Should ESO have cars? Cars are fun. That's your argument or lack of one

acastanza_ESO

ofcourse81 wrote: »

Werewolves have a gap closer by default and have no access to minor resolve or a cleanse or a hot or several other things that ANY of the other classes have by default, for those complaining about rush in pvp you need to open your eyes that set is used by the ball groups but that set also helps to kill the ball groups. It's also a very good set in pve and just like void bash which also doesnt apply immunity they can both be cycled to repull mobs back. Lycan Syndicate uses rush and helps to kill ball groups on all factions. I know they have 30 werewolves and at least 20 healers with 40 rush of agony sets but the set itself is more then balanced for what it is and is anyone is on cc immunity the set doesnt work which is very often.

Honestly no, the set really doesn't help kill the ball groups, ball groups are running with basically constant CC immunity which, as you note, Rush does respect (i.e. you can't be pulled by Rush if you're CC immune, but being pulled by Rush doesn't apply CC immunity).

Personally, I'm okay with there being a niche set that "breaks the rules" now and again, but the Pull should at least apply its own unique immunity (kind of like how Plaguebreak was nerfed such that a target can only be affected by it once every 20 seconds). This would still allow the case where it can be comboed with other effects like Dark Convergence for a strong bomb, but would eliminate the abusive case of constant multiple pulls that you can't do anything about. Being able to spam gap closers to force people in bombs who are otherwise doing everything right mechanics-wise is abusive gameplay and this set enables it.

That said, I do still think the tank meta and sets like Mara's are the much bigger problem in PVP right now.

TechMaybeHic

The CC part is far worse than the damage IMO. Damage can be a balance discussion. Ignoring basic combat rules that were meant to prevent chain CC, even twice with a unique recourse timer; still is game breaker when it also causes CC break to misfire repeatedly and cause
more frequent position desync.

sharquez

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You lack an argument when you go outside the game. They are irrelevant and not even MMOs

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

GTA has cars. Should ESO have cars? Cars are fun. That's your argument or lack of one

Why shouldn't it? It has Robots, Shrink rays, Airships, Cybernetics. Honestly it would make way more sense than robot wolves. Horseless carriages are fine by me.
BUT your example is not a related part of the argument, time period appropriate assets and their use has nothing to do with game mechanics or their balance. I think you need to focus on the topic at hand.

My point stands that there are many other games who's pvp evironments are similar to group fights in ESO and use a comperable arsenal of CC and damage dealing AOE nukes to help fights reach a conclusion.

Why fix what isn't broken?

xDeusEJRx

sharquez wrote: »

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

Why fix what isn't broken?
[/quote]

This set is broken. There's a gameplay loop and dynamic. That being crowd control leads to CC immunity so you can't be continually crowd controlled. This set breaks that dynamic because it ignores the fundamental rules, that being that a crowd control leads to CC immunity. Therefore the set is broken. Breaking the gameplay loop is by definition a broken set.

sharquez

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

Why fix what isn't broken?

This set is broken. There's a gameplay loop and dynamic. That being crowd control leads to CC immunity so you can't be continually crowd controlled. This set breaks that dynamic because it ignores the fundamental rules, that being that a crowd control leads to CC immunity. Therefore the set is broken. Breaking the gameplay loop is by definition a broken set.[/quote]

Except the developers make the rules not angry forum mobs. This was an exception where the cost and benefit of the set was deemed to be balanced. It is currently in the game and deserves to be for the foreseeable future.
CC combos are in every action oriented combat game, and their omnipresence speaks to their benefit to the genre.

xDeusEJRx

sharquez wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Being an MMO is irrelevant, The game genre is not the argument here the mechanics are. The fact is better PVP games than ESO do things better than it and one thing they have in common is high impact crowd control to decisively end battles, instead of having super stacking heals for never ending slog fests.

Why fix what isn't broken?

This set is broken. There's a gameplay loop and dynamic. That being crowd control leads to CC immunity so you can't be continually crowd controlled. This set breaks that dynamic because it ignores the fundamental rules, that being that a crowd control leads to CC immunity. Therefore the set is broken. Breaking the gameplay loop is by definition a broken set.

Except the developers make the rules not angry forum mobs. This was an exception where the cost and benefit of the set was deemed to be balanced. It is currently in the game and deserves to be for the foreseeable future.
CC combos are in every action oriented combat game, and their omnipresence speaks to their benefit to the genre. [/quote]

The devs have made tons of sets that clearly broke dynamic that they went back on. To thing they are 100% right in their decisions, is very outlandish. There hasn't been a single update where Devs haven't dropped the ball and re-worked something they changed in the past 2 years.

Oakensoul day 1 was a flop, dark convergence day 1 was a flop, plaguebreak day 1 was a flop, Hrothgar's chill day 1 was a flop, Mara's balm day 1 was a flop.

If you genuinely think the devs are the final arbiters on whether or not the gameplay loop works is the case, I pity you, because in every single instance I've mentioned the devs have had to walk back and or rework each set because they all were flops and the players KNEW they would be flops. It doesn't take being a game developer to know sets that break a game dynamic or burst you for 50k+ (like dark convergence) is going to destroy dynamic and gameplay.

This set is no different. Your argument is quite illogical

sharquez

If it was broken why hasn't it been fixed? It's an intended mechanic that has outlived every other one of those sets for a reason. Of course the MAKERS of the GAME have the final say. They can choose whether or not to react to feedback.

What's your experience with the set?
Have you used it? Were you solo or with a coordinated group.
Has it ended a stalemate in a big fight you were a part of?

I've used it, quite a lot. It is not an all powerful I win button, and it many times will get you killed as much as it helps you get kills. In fact Id say I've had my best bombs with out the set, but I think its a good tool to have in back pocket for classes that can make use of it and as combo enabler.