Genuine question: Why add a cc set that doesn't give cc immunity?

Kordai

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

geonsocal

haven't been reading notes for a while - what set are you referencing?

Soarora

If you mean Rush of Agony, I've used it in PvE before I got Void Bash and I use it sometimes for fun. It is nice that it doesn't apply CC immunity so things can be chained back in if they run off (in the case of learning to tank) but it would not be a big loss if it did apply CC immunity.

Tiphis

I think it was meant purely for pvp but is simply not actually useful for anyone to risk a relatively useless set outside of ball groups and that fact was somehow overlooked. I don't think it was a necessary set by any means and definitely did more harm than good which unfortunately fits their track record.

Soarora wrote: »

If you mean Rush of Agony, I've used it in PvE before I got Void Bash and I use it sometimes for fun. It is nice that it doesn't apply CC immunity so things can be chained back in if they run off (in the case of learning to tank) but it would not be a big loss if it did apply CC immunity.

But it still is a relatively useless set in any other terms. For a new player learning to tank in pugs or with other new friends, going more selfish survivability might be better off anyway. Warden and dks can pull in and aoe immob and necro has the armor skill that pulls automatically. For more veteran players/groups this set is less important than most others anyway and so not used. It's basically a flavor set, kind of like tormentor.

ketsparrowhawk

100% agree, it needs to apply cc immunity.

React

It's unbelievable that this set was signed off on by whatever parties approve set concepts, and even more unbelievable that it hasn't been adjusted yet. It truly shows that the developers responsible do not play PVP whatsoever.

I have hit 10k procs with this set, on a non bomber (just swapping it for NMG on my 1vx build, in a 2-3 man group). It has the potential to hit as hard as an ult.

The mechanic of not applying CC immunity is absurd. Not only is your location being impacted by an AOE pull, but you are then being CCd a second time causing you to be extremely vulnerable for much longer than you'd normally be from a single CC or pull. You cannot properly counterplay the damage by moving away because you will simply be double CCd the moment the pull ends.

It's a ridiculous set. It should instantly grant CC immunity on pull.

gariondavey

Kordai wrote: »

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

Disagree, this set is a good tool for small scale.

CameraBeardThePirate

Even in a 1v1 this set is strong; the proc damage is absurd and the pull can be disorienting even when you're the only one being pulled. The set does just under the damage of a dawnbreaker which is silly. Furthermore, not only does the set not apply CC, but if you're fighting more than one player wearing it, you can be chain pulled endlessly by it since the set doesn't have any sort of inherent per-target cooldown.

Just an absolutely broken set that was clearly broken before it even reached live, and yet another example of something that's taken way too long to change.

NordSwordnBoard

gariondavey wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

Disagree, this set is a good tool for small scale.

This. I also saw the trade off vs ranged DC being you have to get into the group you attack with a gap close/teleport etc making it more risky like tether bombing. An immunity free pull is OP in the right hands though. This set can actually work very well against ball groups. Most of the time I'm dying to double, triple break free bugs and server lag. I tend to log off out of frustration before I take notice of how much I got pulled by RA versus the typical server failures and desynchs.

Thecompton73

AOE pulls are a terrible mechanic in PvP whether the set applies CC immunity or not. Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence should both be relegated to the scrap heap.

Sergykid

had no problems with it, viable set that has the potential to be properly used, seems balanced overall and it shouldn't get any attention at least while there's other problems

Kartalin

It doesn’t stun or cc yo, why should it provide immunity? Also the cooldown is 8 seconds and ball groups don’t really want you ping ponging around so they can land their bomb. There is one guild that runs multiple rushing agony sets ( @Panderbander ’s Lycans) but they’re mostly werewolves with gap closers slotted by default.

OBJnoob

Other pulls in the game are considered stuns and grant immunity though, right @Kartalin? I can only think of DK chains and dark convergence, but they both do.

Kartalin

Not sure about void bash…

ofcourse81

Werewolves have a gap closer by default and have no access to minor resolve or a cleanse or a hot or several other things that ANY of the other classes have by default, for those complaining about rush in pvp you need to open your eyes that set is used by the ball groups but that set also helps to kill the ball groups. It's also a very good set in pve and just like void bash which also doesnt apply immunity they can both be cycled to repull mobs back. Lycan Syndicate uses rush and helps to kill ball groups on all factions. I know they have 30 werewolves and at least 20 healers with 40 rush of agony sets but the set itself is more then balanced for what it is and is anyone is on cc immunity the set doesnt work which is very often.

Panderbander

I'm not sure if this is intended functionality, but I have also noticed that Rush of Agony will sometimes "proc" and eat the cooldown but not actually do anything if the initial thing that procced is dodged. The fact that Rush applies no actual CC makes it pretty easy to avoid, it's follow up CC that makes it good. Make it so it stuns on pull and I guarantee it would be 100% worse for those being hit by it.

Panderbander

React wrote: »

It's unbelievable that this set was signed off on by whatever parties approve set concepts, and even more unbelievable that it hasn't been adjusted yet. It truly shows that the developers responsible do not play PVP whatsoever.

I have hit 10k procs with this set, on a non bomber (just swapping it for NMG on my 1vx build, in a 2-3 man group). It has the potential to hit as hard as an ult.

The mechanic of not applying CC immunity is absurd. Not only is your location being impacted by an AOE pull, but you are then being CCd a second time causing you to be extremely vulnerable for much longer than you'd normally be from a single CC or pull. You cannot properly counterplay the damage by moving away because you will simply be double CCd the moment the pull ends.

It's a ridiculous set. It should instantly grant CC immunity on pull.

This set typically hits for about 4-5k and has an 8 second cooldown. If you want to talk about something hitting harder than an ult, the set isn't it... Spec bow, however...

ketsparrowhawk

Kartalin wrote: »

It doesn’t stun or cc yo, why should it provide immunity? Also the cooldown is 8 seconds and ball groups don’t really want you ping ponging around so they can land their bomb. There is one guild that runs multiple rushing agony sets ( @Panderbander ’s Lycans) but they’re mostly werewolves with gap closers slotted by default.

All pull-ins apply CC immunity. RoA is an exception, which is why they felt the need to state the exception in the 5pc description.

React

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

It's unbelievable that this set was signed off on by whatever parties approve set concepts, and even more unbelievable that it hasn't been adjusted yet. It truly shows that the developers responsible do not play PVP whatsoever.

I have hit 10k procs with this set, on a non bomber (just swapping it for NMG on my 1vx build, in a 2-3 man group). It has the potential to hit as hard as an ult.

The mechanic of not applying CC immunity is absurd. Not only is your location being impacted by an AOE pull, but you are then being CCd a second time causing you to be extremely vulnerable for much longer than you'd normally be from a single CC or pull. You cannot properly counterplay the damage by moving away because you will simply be double CCd the moment the pull ends.

It's a ridiculous set. It should instantly grant CC immunity on pull.

This set typically hits for about 4-5k and has an 8 second cooldown. If you want to talk about something hitting harder than an ult, the set isn't it... Spec bow, however...

I played solo with the set in the exact context quoted here for about an hour the other night. Simply swapped it in for NMG, which means I did not have major fracture. The only other change to my build that I made was swapping deadly aim for wrathful strikes.

I landed a 10.4k proc at one point, and averaged 6-8k on most players.

That number is akin to what AOE ults often hit for, and it is undodgeable/AOE with an AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity attached to it. Saying "it has an 8 second cooldown" is laughable. Does 8 seconds seem like a long time to you? What about the ability to run this on multiple people and repetitively pull without granting CC immunity?

Even so, I don't really care about the damage. I like the argument that it "counters groups", because to an extent it does. But the fact that it does not grant CC immunity is absurdly broken. Pulls are already strong by nature in that they forcibly alter someone's location, and not at random like a knockback/up does. To have this set hit that hard, pull, and allow you to follow up with a stun? It removes all potential counterplay to this, other than "be CC immune".

The set should grant CC immunity, just like the other AOE pull sets in the game.

I'll be abusing the hell out of this set during midyear mayhem this year, as it certainly won't receive a nerf before then. I'm sure that the following "montage" will provide plenty of context for why this set needs to be changed.

Panderbander

React wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

It's unbelievable that this set was signed off on by whatever parties approve set concepts, and even more unbelievable that it hasn't been adjusted yet. It truly shows that the developers responsible do not play PVP whatsoever.

I have hit 10k procs with this set, on a non bomber (just swapping it for NMG on my 1vx build, in a 2-3 man group). It has the potential to hit as hard as an ult.

The mechanic of not applying CC immunity is absurd. Not only is your location being impacted by an AOE pull, but you are then being CCd a second time causing you to be extremely vulnerable for much longer than you'd normally be from a single CC or pull. You cannot properly counterplay the damage by moving away because you will simply be double CCd the moment the pull ends.

It's a ridiculous set. It should instantly grant CC immunity on pull.

This set typically hits for about 4-5k and has an 8 second cooldown. If you want to talk about something hitting harder than an ult, the set isn't it... Spec bow, however...

I played solo with the set in the exact context quoted here for about an hour the other night. Simply swapped it in for NMG, which means I did not have major fracture. The only other change to my build that I made was swapping deadly aim for wrathful strikes.

I landed a 10.4k proc at one point, and averaged 6-8k on most players.

That number is akin to what AOE ults often hit for, and it is undodgeable/AOE with an AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity attached to it. Saying "it has an 8 second cooldown" is laughable. Does 8 seconds seem like a long time to you? What about the ability to run this on multiple people and repetitively pull without granting CC immunity?

Even so, I don't really care about the damage. I like the argument that it "counters groups", because to an extent it does. But the fact that it does not grant CC immunity is absurdly broken. Pulls are already strong by nature in that they forcibly alter someone's location, and not at random like a knockback/up does. To have this set hit that hard, pull, and allow you to follow up with a stun? It removes all potential counterplay to this, other than "be CC immune".

The set should grant CC immunity, just like the other AOE pull sets in the game.

I'll be abusing the hell out of this set during midyear mayhem this year, as it certainly won't receive a nerf before then. I'm sure that the following "montage" will provide plenty of context for why this set needs to be changed.

I can't help that you're hitting paper targets with the set. Heck, even I sometimes hit people with improper gear or guard debuffs for ridiculous numbers on abilities that don't normally hit that hard on the average player.

The set has an instantaneous pull on no more than 6 targets with a relatively small range, applies no CC, and then deals damage after 2 seconds, all on an 8 second cooldown. That's plenty of time to escape from danger and heal up if you get hit with something and the pull can be blocked or negated by dodging the damage of the hit that procced the set.

Relocating someone is problematic when it also applies CC because ESO requires the entire animation to play even if break free is used, effectively keeping you CC'd longer than necessary. This set has a VERY short animation (preventing you from getting locked in it) and does not stun meaning as long as you're holding some direction of movement when you're pulled you're out of there.

React

Panderbander wrote: »

The set has an instantaneous pull on no more than 6 targets with a relatively small range, applies no CC, and then deals damage after 2 seconds, all on an 8 second cooldown. That's plenty of time to escape from danger and heal up if you get hit with something and the pull can be blocked or negated by dodging the damage of the hit that procced the set.

Where exactly is the "plenty of time" in this equation? You get pulled by the set from a gap closer, which guarantees you will be in range of the pull if it lands. In the next global cooldown, you are hit with an AOE/undodgeable/unblockable stun (most often fear with nightblades, or in your case Roar), or you are hit with an AOE/undodgeable ult that stuns (tether, dawnbreaker). Because of the nature of pulls, you often do not regain control of your character prior to being hit with whatever stun is following the pull. By the time you've regained control and broken free of whatever follow up stun hit you, you've taken an enormous amount of damage without the ability to counterplay.

Panderbander wrote: »

Relocating someone is problematic when it also applies CC because ESO requires the entire animation to play even if break free is used, effectively keeping you CC'd longer than necessary. This set has a VERY short animation (preventing you from getting locked in it) and does not stun meaning as long as you're holding some direction of movement when you're pulled you're out of there.

The first half of this statement is great, the second half is inaccurate.

Yes, pulls are problematic because they keep you CC'd longer than a stun typically would if you were to break free of it right away. But also, pulls typically disable your character functionality for longer than they should. In the case of rushing agony, often times you do not receive the ability to use your skills or dodge/block until the next GCD, when the user of ROA will be hitting you with a stun/ult/etc.

It doesn't matter how you spin it. The set is ignoring a core combat mechanic, and it should not do that.

Panderbander

The proper counterplay is to immediately CC on being pulled. This isn't that hard and consistently happens when gap closing for the purpose of proccing Rush. Lack of awareness is not a reason to call a set unbalanced.

MEBengalsFan2001

This set is simply the new cheese set for ball groups. Using Rush of Agony with Dark Conv and a ball group gets multiple pulls that allow them to quickly have their bombers kill you. .

The only CC effect that should not get immunity from breaking free or dodge rolling is when your movement speed is reduced. That should require a potion or a skill usage to cleanse it.

All other CC effects (roots/immobilization, stuns, knockback, and pulls) should share the same CC immunity timer and all should require breaking free or use of a potion to get immunity.

This would improve the game. The simple fact that after getting out of a root or some pulls you are not granted immunity and it continues to cause players to waste unwanted resources.

Speaking of pulls; as someone that likes playing a tank in MMOs why is there no skill that does a multi pull that also taunts the target. I would have loved a sword and shield skill to have this as an ability.

CameraBeardThePirate

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

It's unbelievable that this set was signed off on by whatever parties approve set concepts, and even more unbelievable that it hasn't been adjusted yet. It truly shows that the developers responsible do not play PVP whatsoever.

I have hit 10k procs with this set, on a non bomber (just swapping it for NMG on my 1vx build, in a 2-3 man group). It has the potential to hit as hard as an ult.

The mechanic of not applying CC immunity is absurd. Not only is your location being impacted by an AOE pull, but you are then being CCd a second time causing you to be extremely vulnerable for much longer than you'd normally be from a single CC or pull. You cannot properly counterplay the damage by moving away because you will simply be double CCd the moment the pull ends.

It's a ridiculous set. It should instantly grant CC immunity on pull.

This set typically hits for about 4-5k and has an 8 second cooldown. If you want to talk about something hitting harder than an ult, the set isn't it... Spec bow, however...

I played solo with the set in the exact context quoted here for about an hour the other night. Simply swapped it in for NMG, which means I did not have major fracture. The only other change to my build that I made was swapping deadly aim for wrathful strikes.

I landed a 10.4k proc at one point, and averaged 6-8k on most players.

That number is akin to what AOE ults often hit for, and it is undodgeable/AOE with an AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity attached to it. Saying "it has an 8 second cooldown" is laughable. Does 8 seconds seem like a long time to you? What about the ability to run this on multiple people and repetitively pull without granting CC immunity?

Even so, I don't really care about the damage. I like the argument that it "counters groups", because to an extent it does. But the fact that it does not grant CC immunity is absurdly broken. Pulls are already strong by nature in that they forcibly alter someone's location, and not at random like a knockback/up does. To have this set hit that hard, pull, and allow you to follow up with a stun? It removes all potential counterplay to this, other than "be CC immune".

The set should grant CC immunity, just like the other AOE pull sets in the game.

I'll be abusing the hell out of this set during midyear mayhem this year, as it certainly won't receive a nerf before then. I'm sure that the following "montage" will provide plenty of context for why this set needs to be changed.

I can't help that you're hitting paper targets with the set. Heck, even I sometimes hit people with improper gear or guard debuffs for ridiculous numbers on abilities that don't normally hit that hard on the average player.

The set has an instantaneous pull on no more than 6 targets with a relatively small range, applies no CC, and then deals damage after 2 seconds, all on an 8 second cooldown. That's plenty of time to escape from danger and heal up if you get hit with something and the pull can be blocked or negated by dodging the damage of the hit that procced the set.

Relocating someone is problematic when it also applies CC because ESO requires the entire animation to play even if break free is used, effectively keeping you CC'd longer than necessary. This set has a VERY short animation (preventing you from getting locked in it) and does not stun meaning as long as you're holding some direction of movement when you're pulled you're out of there.

Uhh not sure where you're getting the 6 target cap from; Rush of Agony has no target cap. In addition, there are plenty of combos with the set that have you no time at all to escape - if you get pulled you're just dead no questions about it. For example (just one of many), if you meteor someone then rush that person, anyone who gets pulled by the rush will immediately get stunned by the meteor and eat any followup (in my case a graverobber). The only counterplay is to have CC immunity beforehand.

TechMaybeHic

I'm glad this is being mentioned more and more. A few of us said at the start when it first hit PTS how bad it was. Just now getting to where people have realized and farmed it

Making matters worse; it's incredibly difficult to see coming in a large fight and it certainly seems to pull from further out than 7m.

Then it's often followed by dark convergence so you are yo-yoed and then CCed and break free then does not work for a couple of seconds. Enough time to get hit by procs from squishy "allies" (sometimes there are plants) that you were nowhere really near but now suddenly are right on top of.

Absolutely needs to go. I have no idea why they introduced things to make you want to spread out (VD, PB, Proxy, Occult Overload) and then introduce sets that clump you together. That's really an example of what I wanted to understand from their vision on combat because they seem to contradict themselves often. Sort of like CC that doesn't grant CC immunity. Instead; we got a generic mission statement that lacks any coherence to what actually is going on in game.

TheSpunkyLobster

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Making matters worse; it's incredibly difficult to see coming in a large fight and it certainly seems to pull from further out than 6m.

Assuming that this is a typo, but the range is 7 meters.

TechMaybeHic

TheSpunkyLobster wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Making matters worse; it's incredibly difficult to see coming in a large fight and it certainly seems to pull from further out than 6m.

Assuming that this is a typo, but the range is 7 meters.

Subliminal messages. Think I got 6 stuck in my head thinking about the 6 person limit mentioned, and if it's true or not

HiImRex

It’s not a good set to have in this game for all the reasons react said.

Sorry pander, I get that this set is core to you/your friends playstyle but your arguments are weak and some points are even untrue.

And some of your “counterplay” arguments are moot because they’re purely theoretical and require an exponentially higher level of counterplay every 8 seconds against a set that requires very little effort to utilize.

Just the fact that in a theoretically lag free environment you could respond perfectly to a one button setup every 8 seconds over the course of a several minute fight says volumes about why the set is not good for the game.

React

Here are some rush of agony CMX reports from a couple hours of duo nightblade PVP. Imagine how much higher that proc goes in larger groups with more buffs & debuffs. This is just wearing rallying/rushing/balorgh/markyn.

Again, I honestly don't have an issue with the damage itself. But that damage on top of the AOE pull that doesn't grant CC immunity? It is simply too strong. The pull needs to grant immunity. They could even compensate by making the damage happen after 1 second rather than 2 for more consistent AOE bursts, but the broken mechanic of pulling without applying immunity needs to go.









Here is the set proccing on a 12 man coordinated ball group without anyone else hitting/sieging them or buffing me.

Kartalin

I don't really have a problem with cc immunity being added to this set as long as it cc's the targets.

Skoomah

Kordai wrote: »

Who benefits besides ball groups? It's a useless set in pve, useless for solo pvp, useless for small scale pvp and useless for ganking. Did they really need more buffs? Granted it seems inevitable if the years have shown.

Why add a set that is an exception to the basic rules of the game?

I rarely come across Rush of Agony in daily PvP, and when I do, I simply walk away from the pull like how I walk away from dark convergence or any other CC. The 8 second cooldown on the set’s proc is a cooldown for the set already. What’s the point of adding CC immunity to it when CC immunity lasts just as long?

If the set’s damage is what you’re worried about then I’m not sure you’re building your character right… I mean, have you seen how tanky this meta is? It’s overly tanky in no CP environments. With CPs, Rush of Agony’s damage doesn’t make a dent, especially with players that build for mobility and can tank 5 players and still turn around hit hard.