Update 35 Combat Preview

Vinterskald

Maybe consider to take some time to realise that not everyone being able to parse 100k+ is... not in itself a bad thing. If you're currently somewhere in between the 60k-80k range in DPS, and if maybe that's the best you're physically capable of doing, then that's by far not terrible. You can still complete most of the content in this game. Just because score pushers exist doesn't mean that that needs to be everyone's standard. These people devoted lots of their time over the years to get as good as they can be at the game, and if anything, that should be rewarded, and not punished.

Light attack weaving and what people often call "juggling" buffs and DoTs are things that make ESO combat what it is, and what makes people enjoy it so much. I feel like the changes that are proposed here are very counterintuitive - they don't reward players for putting energy into mastering their class and role, and they don't provide any help for newer players who are just starting out and who don't yet understand how the combat in this game works. It also just makes sense that light attacks would be a high source of damage - isn't that one big reason why one would equip a weapon in the first place, especially as a brand new player who doesn't yet know what weapon skill lines are?

Please, reconsider this. One way would be to, as many others in this thread already proposed, help newer players learn the combat in this game. I know that sometimes player-made guides made it into news posts, why not maybe put them into the game as well, on the same section as the announcements where new crown store items go? Or make it a category in the launcher, maybe? Another way, of course, would be to realise that it's not necessarily a bad thing that there's a skill gap, and that bringing on big changes every couple months won't help in reducing it.

Ragnaroek93

I can press 1 light attack per second, 1 ability per second and dodge/block cancel every skill (if I really want to). That's 180 APM at max (more like ~120 in reality). "High" APM lol...

Kirawolfe

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

Then once the player is past the intro/tutorial (or whatever the first part of making a new character is called), have training camps in the base game, like in Craglorn for example, with an NPC teaching more and more advanced combinations and reward people for going there. Achievements, leads, skill points, prizes or whatever. Something to encourage people to go.

I LOVE this idea

Parasaurolophus

I wouldn't be so dramatic. Weaving and rotation will continue to be an element of l2p and an indicator of the player's skill. It's just that combat content will become available to more players. I would like to hope that this will be some kind of start for what we usually call vet overland.

Ittrix

None of these changes address the root of the problem.

On one hand, players don't know how to play your game. Taking potshots with buffs and nerfs will not help them.

On the other hand, players who do know how to play your game can't find groups because people are obsessed with DPS. Once again, taking potshots with buffs and nerfs isn't going to help them.

Add a tutorial for each role. Make it as free-form as you like if you must. Punish obsessing over DPS and nothing but DPS. make it so you can't skip mechanics by doing phat damage.

Gaisma

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I wouldn't be so dramatic. Weaving and rotation will continue to be an element of l2p and an indicator of the player's skill. It's just that combat content will become available to more players.

How it will become more available? Honestly, I feel like I am missing a piece. The damage checks in the harder content are the same. It's not like weaving change will increase anyone's damage?

Ittrix

Gaisma wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I wouldn't be so dramatic. Weaving and rotation will continue to be an element of l2p and an indicator of the player's skill. It's just that combat content will become available to more players.

How it will become more available? Honestly, I feel like I am missing a piece. The damage checks in the harder content are the same. It's not like weaving change will increase anyone's damage?

What ZoS is hoping (I believe) is that they will make weaving less important (something newer players are worse at) and damage overall won't drop because they'll extend DoT times on one hand to make it easier for newer players to keep track of them, but also so older players can use their spammables more often to catch up on the lowered weave damage.

Sandman929

In short, everyone should be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about playing well.

dmnqwk

I can understand why ESO are implementing these changes, but I am not sure they are going to have the desired effect.

MMOs generally work in PvE by producing a layered system of damage:
1) Executes - Abilities which only work when the target is at a % health system. Sometimes these replace a spammable, and other times they simply fit into the rotation during the execute period.
2) Combo Spenders - Abilities which require you to do X before this will work. They're either off the gcd (doesn't exist in ESO) and deal moderate damage or they produce a higher amount of damage to reflect their simulated cooldown period.
3) DoTs - The purpose of these is to provide more power over time at the expense of instant impact. Skillful use of these can often be why some players do a lot more damage than others.
4) Cooldown powers - These are instant heavy hitters but come with the drawback they can only be used every X seconds.
5) Spammables - These are the abilities that cost resources but can be used constantly.
5a) Combo Generators - ESO doesn't use these, but they fill the role of spammable that also generate a special resource you use to pay for combos.
6) Fillers - ESO doesn't use these but they're similar to spammables, only don't cost resources to use.

So when we look at the above, they fall into 2 categories
Abilities which deal X damage instantly (1, 5, 6)
Abilities which deal X damage every Y seconds. (2, 3, 4)

When creating a layered damage system a rotation requires you to hit your most effective ability every cooldown - it's not always the heaviest hitting ability but it is the one which provides the highest damage in the long run. (An example might be Grim Resolve does 100k while Impale does 99k, but using up the stacks of Grim Resolve costs you 900, meaning in the long run you'd lose more damage not just spamming Impale...)
With the above in mind, let's have a look at the changes ESO are submitting and see if they will actually help newer players...

LA changes
Currently, LA does what other MMOs would do with Combo generators (5a). So in other games, Surprise Attack would say 'generates 1 stack of Grim Focus'. But with ESO using LA to trigger Combo Spenders (2) any Nightblade or Sorcerer wishing to produce high levels of damage must be experts in Light Attack Weaving. This means that, while the other 4 classes still require LA weaving, ANY new player who chooses a Nightblade or Sorcerer can face ridicule or become demoralized the minute they realise all the other classes can ignore LA weaving and lose 10% damage while they ignore it and lose themselves 25-30%. If you're doing this to consider newer players, then you're going to have to re-design these abilities to not require such a barrier to them. Of course, as soon as you do anyone who plays a Sorc/Nightblade well will feel it's not fair they suffered all these years.

DoT changes
Front End vs Backend damage is already quite clearly a significant factor with some classes. Templar has 90% of its power held within its Spammable (5) Jabs while a Warden player who times Scorch (their cooldown power, 4) to hit as you reach the mobs can produce similar front end loading.
Altering DoTs so they are higher backend means in the majority of places, where mobs do not even last the 3 seconds it'd take for Scorch to go off if you've not pre-cast it, you're going to see a larger discrepancy between heavy front-loading classes like Templars and ones who are much more backend, either through reliance on dots or cooldown powers(4)/combo spenders (2) like the Sorc and Nightblade. Parsing will not see this issue, but in real time where target switching is required, where constant movement is negating the damage from ground-based AoE you're going to create more scenarios where people switch from the classes that require more work to produce the same effect and create a realm where everybody wants to play the class who can use a single button to do it all because everything else has been reduced in effectiveness (Normal Sunspire, for example, where the burst windows are short you're going to end up reconsidering whether you can actually bother re-applying a dot.

I am not going to suggest these changes cannot occur, but I do suggest you reconsider what you are doing with them: Having DoTs last longer in a world where the mobs DON'T is pushing players towards front-loaded Templars and punishing them for being Magicka-based staff users over spin to win dual wielders shouldn't be seen as positive. Introducing an easement to build yourself without light attacking for SOME classes but leaving you suffering immensely on others is not a positive ideology and will create many unhappy tennants. It's very easy for 'high end' players to believe a reduction in skill is bad, however what they neglect to consider is if your rotation is easier to maintain in combat, then ZOS can introduce MORE mechanics in veteran fights, such as the entire map becoming filled with fire, because the capacity for focus will be elevated with less of it worrying about refreshing dots so much.

Also I am going to suggest Templars need more damage in their dots and way way WAY less in their Jabs, because sheesh - it's doing 50% more damage than it should as a spammable (5).

FatelessLava

Sure reward the players who never want to improve.
Players who worked hard and long on mastering light attack weaving should feel rewarded, and the person in the back who is just light attack soaking because they don’t give a bother shouldn’t be doing the same damage.


It’s harsh. A majority of this game from what I have seen in the past really don’t want to improve. There are some who do, and will work for it. But don’t reward the ones who don’t work hard.


The reason that all their changes make the gap bigger is that those who want to improve find ways to do that using all of the tools available to them, but the bottom stays where it is because some of the players at the bottom don't work to get better because they see no need, as long as they can clear overland they are content with where they are.
Quoted by a guildie and it’s true. No matter what is done. The top will always stay up because they find ways to improve. Those who want find ways to improve. Those who don’t, we’ll don’t.

Stop catering to those who don’t want to work.

blktauna

Kirawolfe wrote: »

Anony_Mouse wrote: »

Then once the player is past the intro/tutorial (or whatever the first part of making a new character is called), have training camps in the base game, like in Craglorn for example, with an NPC teaching more and more advanced combinations and reward people for going there. Achievements, leads, skill points, prizes or whatever. Something to encourage people to go.

I LOVE this idea

Its an awesome idea. In game instruction is slim on the ground and this sort of thing would make the target for these proposed changes at least aware of weaving and how to do it.

TechMaybeHic

Sarcasm post, just tongue in cheek...

Devs: let's put in a rage timers and also ability to DPS race to avoid mechanics

Also Devs: This DPS race is not accessible to low APM players. Let's nerf the players that are able to do it.


PvPers sarcastically : Once again; PvPers get nerfed because PvEers cry about APM

Minno

Ittrix wrote: »

None of these changes address the root of the problem.

On one hand, players don't know how to play your game. Taking potshots with buffs and nerfs will not help them.

On the other hand, players who do know how to play your game can't find groups because people are obsessed with DPS. Once again, taking potshots with buffs and nerfs isn't going to help them.

Add a tutorial for each role. Make it as free-form as you like if you must. Punish obsessing over DPS and nothing but DPS. make it so you can't skip mechanics by doing phat damage.

The best tutorial is actually scaling content you can enjoy, and not what you are suggesting. If you have to explain game mechanics in a way that feels like school, you lost the beginner experience for the new player. That strong beginner experience is generally a bigger contributor towards letting players find their way through the jungle.

For example, diablo1, your first time hitting the dungeon you are met with easy imps/skeles. But also in the same level you come up to the butcher and he kindly reminds you this is not going to be an easy hack and slash RPG lol. That experience would be lost if they added tutorials, because then the game becomes a funnel factory to end game, and you lose that reminder of the challenge that awaits.

Another flipside to this combat change is that they left gearing largely forgotten. How are they going to address how new players like to gear versus end game vets? If there going to be a set seen as terrible for the usual end game player but makes it easier for a new player to hit the min dps threshold? IDK there are a ton of what if's and I don't remember ever getting a design intent from the devs on how they view each class/spec. That would help us avoid homogeneous class design and that would help us on future combat changes because we can start looking at feedback through certain lenses.

emilyhyoyeon

Nerfing LA damage will definitely not help these players

Ittrix

Sandman929 wrote: »

In short, everyone should be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about playing well.

It won't work, though. Easy rotations doesn't have as much to do with it as much as people want to act like it does.
Here is a one bar, one button rotation someone sent me as a stamplar DPS last year.


60k damage by literally spamming one button repeatedly with a few heavy attacks when you run out of stamina. It's literally not even optimized- the guy was wearing relequen; a set that revolves around light attacks.

at that time last year, I was running a veteran trials group with the parse requirements being 60k. That group cleared every vet trial, so I'd be willing to say this one button parse is good enough for all non hardmode veteran content in the game.

To *really* stress it, ONE BUTTON PARSE THAT DOES 60K (NOT CLICKBAIT!!!)!
skill floor being too high for a good parse clearly isn't it. The problem is that your average player has no idea how to make something like this because the game is complicated and ZoS doesn't teach players anything about how to play.

Mesite

It's been a long time since I tried out any changes on PTS. I'm tempted to get involved in testing these changes and use the PTS. I may be able to leave my healer behind and join the DPS ranks!

Minno

Ittrix wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

In short, everyone should be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about playing well.

It won't work, though. Easy rotations doesn't have as much to do with it as much as people want to act like it does.
Here is a one bar, one button rotation someone sent me as a stamplar DPS last year.


60k damage by literally spamming one button repeatedly with a few heavy attacks when you run out of stamina. It's literally not even optimized- the guy was wearing relequen; a set that revolves around light attacks.

at that time last year, I was running a veteran trials group with the parse requirements being 60k. That group cleared every vet trial, so I'd be willing to say this one button parse is good enough for all non hardmode veteran content in the game.

To *really* stress it, ONE BUTTON PARSE THAT DOES 60K (NOT CLICKBAIT!!!)!
skill floor being too high for a good parse clearly isn't it. The problem is that your average player has no idea how to make something like this because the game is complicated and ZoS doesn't teach players anything about how to play.

it should not be on zos to teach players to play the game. The content should be there so players can work that out for themselves or find alternative routes to complete said challenges.

If anything, their ability audit is probably the culprit here since their standardization was prob looked at one lens, instead of both end game and beginner experience.

francesinhalover

I like that you are making the game easier for casuals but the issue with the game is all the insta kill and team wipe mechanics ruining end game content for them. not the weavings.

What i see happening is sustain nerfs because dots last longer.

Ittrix

Minno wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

In short, everyone should be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about playing well.

It won't work, though. Easy rotations doesn't have as much to do with it as much as people want to act like it does.
Here is a one bar, one button rotation someone sent me as a stamplar DPS last year.


60k damage by literally spamming one button repeatedly with a few heavy attacks when you run out of stamina. It's literally not even optimized- the guy was wearing relequen; a set that revolves around light attacks.

at that time last year, I was running a veteran trials group with the parse requirements being 60k. That group cleared every vet trial, so I'd be willing to say this one button parse is good enough for all non hardmode veteran content in the game.

To *really* stress it, ONE BUTTON PARSE THAT DOES 60K (NOT CLICKBAIT!!!)!
skill floor being too high for a good parse clearly isn't it. The problem is that your average player has no idea how to make something like this because the game is complicated and ZoS doesn't teach players anything about how to play.

it should not be on zos to teach players to play the game. The content should be there so players can work that out for themselves or find alternative routes to complete said challenges.

If anything, their ability audit is probably the culprit here since their standardization was prob looked at one lens, instead of both end game and beginner experience.

It doesn't have to be on them. But ultimately the issue here is that players don't know how to play the game. If ZoS wants to get these players to a point where they can do more content, someone needs to teach them.

Oh, and before I forget... there was literally no weaving in that parse. No light attacks done. Only the 14 heavies.

francesinhalover

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I wouldn't be so dramatic. Weaving and rotation will continue to be an element of l2p and an indicator of the player's skill. It's just that combat content will become available to more players. I would like to hope that this will be some kind of start for what we usually call vet overland.

the issue with the game for "more players" is all the insta kill mechanics, not the weaving.
granted the game could use a tuturial for it.

carlos424

Trundik wrote: »

novapixel wrote: »

sounds boring

Well its more like doesn't fit expectations. Long time players waiting for improvement hoping it will be. High isle wasn't rly (imo). But anyway if child want to get candies, and then you giving unwanted candies and at the end you giving bad unwanted candies, things coming to worse. Why don't you ask child what exactly candy he/she wants? In this forum there is a lot of expectations and improvement posted... Maybe lets make a voting or something? I'm sure casual changes to weaving will be something far away from players chosen priorities what to change first.

Just make a mythic that perfectly weaves light attacks when you hit each skill. Lol. Problem solved. Damage was already nerfed this patch, unless you are a stamsorc. Just nerf crystal weapon and call it a day (I’m sure they will any way.)

YoWombat

These changes are a step in the right direction. Looking forward to it. After the disappointingly few changes in the last update, I'm glad to see the devs are not adverse to making serious changes that will be necessary to tackle these major issues.

I can't tell you how many people have told me that they would love ESO except they bounced off it because the combat is awful and ruins it for them. These include people coming from a background of previous single-player elder scrolls games, as well as people from a background of MMOs. Not that it's difficult or complex, but that it simply isn't fun or engaging.

I myself, and the few friends that have stuck with it, play for the world, and merely put up with the combat as best we can. Playing from Australia, with high and inconsistent ping doesn't help the matter. If we can't have oceanic servers (something my friends and I are still holding out for, especially now that Microsoft is involved!), this is at least a step forward. Bravo!

Mrtoobyy

hodgodeb17_ESO wrote: »

Just remove weaving from game and then there's will be no problems with it. Just add one more stat, like attack speed. For those, who need faster attacks.
Like, base attack speed: 100%, some sets can increase it, but gives less spell/weapon power then sets which not gives attack speed.
That's all, but weaving MUST be removed from game. That's bug. Ugly bug which destroys how animations looks like.

As a player who's been playing since BETA and been an active PVP player last 3 plus years I would love for them to remove LA weaving JUST to see what it looks like. I really miss how the animations were slower at launch, many animations looked alot better before they changed them.

Now it's so fast, it's spasmic, flickering and removes much of the "weight/realism feel". I mean a full heavy armor toon that is clipping through everythign just looks awful. It feels really fun to LA weave and helps in PVP but for me to just see this game without it would be such a welcoming thing to explore. Imagine if they could remove LA weaving for a while just as they did with proc sets or just put it on the PTS so we all can try it.

And about attack speed increase there was a trait back in the day that increased your attack speed.

colossalvoids

I really don't like that Gilliam is always used as a hate sponge for every controversial decision team makes. Overall it sounds like a failure already but I'd wait for pts to come as they might actually look into classes more carefully than expected, would try to forget last dots failure that wasn't even properly rolled off as team might learned through it. One can hope at least.

Arthtur

What i was expecting... Oh well, at least there will be something to read on forums.

colossalvoids

Master_AlucarD wrote: »

Better directly go the final step to "fix" the gap: Remove all skills and leave us with B = Block and A = Attack

It's coming, I'm sure of it.

Lazerus

This...is interesting.
I always hated how much of a difference this weaving can have.
So...im looking forward to this

Minno

Ittrix wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

In short, everyone should be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about playing well.

It won't work, though. Easy rotations doesn't have as much to do with it as much as people want to act like it does.
Here is a one bar, one button rotation someone sent me as a stamplar DPS last year.


60k damage by literally spamming one button repeatedly with a few heavy attacks when you run out of stamina. It's literally not even optimized- the guy was wearing relequen; a set that revolves around light attacks.

at that time last year, I was running a veteran trials group with the parse requirements being 60k. That group cleared every vet trial, so I'd be willing to say this one button parse is good enough for all non hardmode veteran content in the game.

To *really* stress it, ONE BUTTON PARSE THAT DOES 60K (NOT CLICKBAIT!!!)!
skill floor being too high for a good parse clearly isn't it. The problem is that your average player has no idea how to make something like this because the game is complicated and ZoS doesn't teach players anything about how to play.

it should not be on zos to teach players to play the game. The content should be there so players can work that out for themselves or find alternative routes to complete said challenges.

If anything, their ability audit is probably the culprit here since their standardization was prob looked at one lens, instead of both end game and beginner experience.

It doesn't have to be on them. But ultimately the issue here is that players don't know how to play the game. If ZoS wants to get these players to a point where they can do more content, someone needs to teach them.

Oh, and before I forget... there was literally no weaving in that parse. No light attacks done. Only the 14 heavies.

IDK any game that actively tries to teach you the end game stuff right off the bat that is also able to maintain a healthy balance on it's MMO world.

You can only handhold players for so long. The only solution for this is to give the dad gamers a bit of alternatives (gearing or skills) to end game, drop those mechanics over time across large selection on content, and then hope for the best.

neferpitou73

I am always amazed how ZOS manages to miss the mark so completely. Every. Single. Patch.

Let's start with the light attack changes: The only thing this does is punish players who've actually learned how to play the game. And for what, so new players don't feel bad? There is literally no point to this besides appealing to the players who are spiteful other players are parsing higher than them. Is it going to magically make these low DPS players suddenly do as well as the high parsers? Absolutely not! In fact, odds are it'll just lower their DPS.

The buffs/dots/hots changes are a mixed bag. On the one hand it'll make rotations easier. On the other hand damage and healing will be reduced overall, which is bad for PvE (although maybe you'll have to run a proper healer for content now, but I doubt it). The reduced damage and heals might reduce the tankiness in PvP but it will also make it easier for ball groups to keep hard to get buffs up (thanks again for the buff ZOS!). I don't know who will want to run a dot build now especially in PvP. The reduction in hots will, of course have the opposite effect than is intended with regards to ball groups.

Do you know what you had to do this patch ZOS?: Nothing. Just let us sit with a relatively stable meta for more than 3months. Maybe tweak a few overperforming skills. But once again you've decided to completely change the meta for absolutely no reason.

Your problem isn't a skill gap ZOS. It's that ESO is an Elder Scroll game that doesn't play like one (and that's a good thing!). You're not going to make casual players stick around by making old players do worse. The only thing that does is drive off players tired of getting nerfed and tired of farming new builds every 3 months.

Please stop listening to crap on the forums the people here are a very small portion of the playerbase.

Xinihp

Both of these sound like terrible changes to be honest. The weaving change, OK I guess some people just have a hard time pressing buttons, though honestly how many people is that really? No one I know has ever complained about ESO's complexity or button upkeep vs. other games. Regardless, the 33%+ AOE damage nerfs is just absolutely horrible.

This actually reminds me of the "dumbing down of WoW" where millions of subscribers left that game after over the top pruning of abilities.

Damage over time skills already do mediocre damage. In 90% of content you will face (solo) you don't want every single pack of mobs between you and a treasure chest or crafting resource to be a boss battle that requires setup and 10+ seconds to tick decent damage on your dots.

If you want to increase the duration of abilities for people who can't press buttons you damage the game for the vast majority. Increase the mana/stamina cost if you must do this. But lowering already mediocre AOE/DoT damage is going to absolutely wreck the experience of the game.

I too am tired of the changes to combat in ESO lately always being about taking things away and never adding anything. Vampire was bad. An entire class of abilities is CATASTROPHIC.

Who are these hypothetical minority unable to push buttons you are targeting these changes at? Do you have data about what percent of the population of paying customers they actually represent?

I would guess less than 15%. So why lose dollars chasing pennies, so to speak?