Update 35 Combat Preview

Magio_

AJTC5000 wrote: »

I've always been bad at weaving - I've been lucky as a Templar to get by without it for the most part, with a longer-than-usual channeled spammable and a channeled execute ability. So I may be biased when I say I can get behind a nerf to light weaving.

However, my one pressing concern for these changes is . . . is the current content also going to be adjusted to compensate for these changes? We're looking at a rough 10% reduction in damage, and healing is also being affected . . . how are the Hard Mode trials going to play out now? Bearing in mind, Unchained Animals, the top team in the world currently, got their vDSR trifecta with 1.5 minutes to spare . . . what sort of message does that send to the rest of the player-base, if it looks to be nigh-unachievable for them?

This is the prime example of a fake "casual" ZOS is catering to. Why is a "casual" interested in achieving one of the most difficult trifecta?

Casual =/= Bad Player ZOS. Some players are not good and that's ok. You don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate them. Some content will and should only be cleared by the very best. People need to learn to accept that.

karthrag_inak

Every time fundamental changes are made to how combat works in this (or any game - SWG launch-day vet here) you just demonstrate how completely out of touch you are with your own systems and playerbase.

Players see this change, after repeated fundamental changes, and automatically think "What is next? What is the next basic system to be changed? How will combat change again in the future, in a manner completely orthogonal to this one? When will these changes be reversed?"

This approach to development/design, more than any other, is why people leave MMOs, and why they do it covered in salt.

FeedbackOnly

Please don't forget dragon knight healers. They aren't balanced at all. Just think how rare it is to see one in a group. Not elite group even average players don't use it

🥺

Jamie_Aubrey

VixxVexx wrote: »

Oh no no no

TikTok has ruined this saying for the worst

olsborg

Hmm, well it seems like you are continuing to lower the skill ceiling...why learn to play if you have learned how to be effective on day 2 of starting eso? I applaud balance changes for the better, the problem is...they rarely are for the better these last couple of years...
These are just my initial thoughts after reading this based on the experience of the last 4-5 updates, but we will see when the PTS notes are up.

prof_doom

I'll reserve final judgement until people get to start parsing on the PTS... but just off of reading text:

1 - Longer buffs and debuffs - Good
2 - Longer dots - okay, though I suspect you're going to way overdo "adjusting" the damage.
3 - Killing LA - bad and useless.

Chef42

A lot of these changes sound great for the majority of the players out there. You cannot balance a game around the 2-3% of high-end endgame players.

Parasaurolophus

I told! I said!... I said once, about 3 years ago, that in order to reduce the gap between DPS, you need to nerf the LA and increase the duration of dots and effects. It's nice to feel right.

I also said that all the modes on BG's are bad and they need to be reworked with a better balance between combat and avoidance of combat, and not just juggling queue options.

SiAScORCH

Well any of you who like playing werewolf are now irrelevant. WW uses light and a heavy attacks as primary damage, but it doesn't matter to you guys it seems.

NoxiousBlight

I am glad the buffs are getting longer. ESO combat always felt like trying to juggle too many plates at the same time - especially in PvP.

KlauthWarthog

Light attack weaving and careful upkeep of buffs/dots will still matter. You will still have to put in the work in order to get top DPS. So what is up with all the frowny faces here?

taugrim

I don't think weaving is the real issue. It's having to weave while also managing a bunch of timers that makes people have to stare at their bars. Also, by definition weaving does not require a player to look at their bars, since weaving is done via left click (or whatever key is mapped) and there is no timer nor resource cost associated with light attacks.

Weaving adds an element of skill to the game, and that is a good thing.

I can see the value in increasing the duration of buffs - having to cycle through them every ~20 seconds is a hassle frankly. Or simply make buffs effectively like slottable passives (a la Camouflaged Hunter, Inner Light), so that they don't have to be cast to provide benefit. That would help players who have difficulty managing too many timers, and for those that are able to manage the timers, removes hassle that is tedious.

TLDR:
1. extend buff durations or make them slottable passives
2. leave everything else as-is

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

But DOTs are mostly ineffective in PvP already save for outliers and a broken set or
4. Not sure watering then down in intensity in favor of duration makes sense when burst is still king. And HOT stacking is still there. If you water both down; it's just all burst damage and heals.

Cross-healing via healing over time effects in PVP is very problematic (i.e. too strong, because they stack on the same player), but the proposed changes will neuter impact DoT-based builds, given the amount of cleanses in PVP.

And I don't think that's a good thing for build diversity.

Vaoh

Waiting until PTS to make a firm judgement.

I believe you’re completely missing the mark and misinterpreting what needs to be done though.

Examine the changes made between 2014-2022. Analyze the metas, the player response, and the player retention in all aspects of the game in response to combat changes. Ask yourselves if these Update 35 changes are going to achieve your goals or just become the thousandth failed attempt.....

Aldoss

I can't remember the last time I was excited about the direction of this game after reading a patch notes or combat preview teaser...

This change sounds terrible and you should scrap it immediately. You won't, but you absolutely should.

It takes no intelligence at all to realize that lowering LA damage does nothing to lessen the skill gap. Good players will continue to not miss a LA. Bad players will continue spamming m1 and wonder why they missed one, or LA twice, or (shocking I know... ) maybe they won't notice at all because these casual players have no interest in trying vet content at all!

I also can't help but point out how blatant these changes are ignoring the PvP realm. Lowering dot damage by increasing their time is so clearly designed for people who love standing to the side of a boss, not moving until a raid lead tells them, and mindlessly executing a pre-determined, optimized rotation. Cool. So wall of elements and stampede will last 20 seconds now to give someone less skilled the chance to reapply it and have their uptime improve. And yet, you want us to trust you that you can balance healing and hots around this?!

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

Elyox

[snip]

Thanks for telling us all that the game is gonna be to drop 7 to 9 dots that last 30 seconds (or whatever you're gonna make them) and then just use a spammable until dots run out (for a solid 12-15 seconds in a row), [snip]

[edited for baiting]

notyuu

hodgodeb17_ESO wrote: »

Just remove weaving from game and then there's will be no problems with it. Just add one more stat, like attack speed. For those, who need faster attacks.
Like, base attack speed: 100%, some sets can increase it, but gives less spell/weapon power then sets which not gives attack speed.
That's all, but weaving MUST be removed from game. That's bug. Ugly bug which destroys how animations looks like.

they have tried evvery way under the sun to do this without going for the hard lock option, and every time it has only resulted in combat feeling slower and clunkier.

The hard lock option would be making it so that animations are absloute, while doing one you would not be able to interrupt them at all, not even to block, dodge or heal, but it would get rid of weaving.

I came from an mmo that had the hard lock style gameplay, you do not want it, beleive me.

prof_doom

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

You will still have to put in the work in order to get top DPS.

This is why. This change isn't going to magically make the people complaining about LA weaving good. It's just going to push down the overall DPS numbers, and not improve the experience for people with actual mobility issues.

QueuesAsTanks

The best thing about ESO, unique among RPGs/MMO, is the ability to practice your way to being good instead of geargrinding your way to being good; you can handle vTrial content wearing something you found on the ground in Deshaan, as long as your weave is clean enough.

A nerf to LA damage would shift PvE output weight to gear and set bonuses, which would benefit endgamers more than it would benefit casual players who can't afford to upgrade and/or obtain perfected trial gear.

I think it's an interesting idea but perhaps buffing Heavy Attacks (which endgame DPS really don't use, and developing DPS do) would be a more direct way of getting the desired result.

maeee

Please, please, please do not put these changes to live. Mastery of the game's combat systems to achieve the highest effectiveness is something that should be encouraged. Oakensoul already was the accessibility option for those who had trouble with the previously-essential 2 bar mechanic in PVE. This is extremely discouraging to read as someone who has put the time in to master my rotation and weaving.

xPoisin

Maybe a wrong suggestion and question, but how will the resource return be affected with these changes ?

pklemming

Looking forwards to the DD who spams just LAs in a dungeon doing even less dps.

Introduce a tutorial, explaining how dps works? No, lets leave it a complete unknown and reduce their dps too, in an attempt to bridge the number differences, that will help.

I see no good result coming out of this.

Also, Devs, you may want to check some of the big discords and reddit too, for an unmoderated opinion of the initial thoughts.

Alchimiste1

When does the auto combat mode get implemented ?
Sometimes I get tired of actually playing the game

TheGreatBlackBear

Magio_ wrote: »

AJTC5000 wrote: »

I've always been bad at weaving - I've been lucky as a Templar to get by without it for the most part, with a longer-than-usual channeled spammable and a channeled execute ability. So I may be biased when I say I can get behind a nerf to light weaving.

However, my one pressing concern for these changes is . . . is the current content also going to be adjusted to compensate for these changes? We're looking at a rough 10% reduction in damage, and healing is also being affected . . . how are the Hard Mode trials going to play out now? Bearing in mind, Unchained Animals, the top team in the world currently, got their vDSR trifecta with 1.5 minutes to spare . . . what sort of message does that send to the rest of the player-base, if it looks to be nigh-unachievable for them?

This is the prime example of a fake "casual" ZOS is catering to. Why is a "casual" interested in achieving one of the most difficult trifecta?

Casual =/= Bad Player ZOS. Some players are not good and that's ok. You don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate them. Some content will and should only be cleared by the very best. People need to learn to accept that.

Who cares what he's concerned about? Also why shouldn't he be concerned? He's already raiding at less than full capacity. If the fastest man alive can't outrun a pack of brain eating zombies I'd be worried about my own prospects for example.

Firstmep

Chef42 wrote: »

A lot of these changes sound great for the majority of the players out there. You cannot balance a game around the 2-3% of high-end endgame players.

The game is not balanced around them tho. We have tiered difficulty on all dungeon type pve content, and overland is purposefully super easy.

That being said, i agree with making dots, buffs and debuffs last longer, altho the dot dmg nerf will likely make them pointless in pvp again.
The light attack weaving change is pointless, 6-11% dmg decrease will only hurt people who are already struggling with the most difficult content.
I'd say, keep the buff/debuff/dot changes(with maybe a smaller dmg nerf) and lose the light/heavy attack nerfs altogether for now.

Aiphaton

Coming in Update 35, we’re reducing Light and Heavy Attacks’ impact in damage production by adjusting their damage to deal a flat amount, regardless of stats. We have spent a considerable amount of time investigating the baseline experience that a new player would have with these attacks, using that as our starting point for how much damage they do moving forward. The aim is to not harm the low-end experience, and target only the higher end. In doing so, we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.

So basicly you punish player who engage with the game ?
You wanna encourage player to stand there and press X deal 1million dmg and press y instawipe the raid - here you go have a GS.
Im sorry but LA Weaving and even Heavy Attack where a core feature of the game.
Who needs stats - yeah sure a tank can deal the same amount of DMG with LA or Heavy then a person who puts 20x more ressources in Dmg - how can you be so out of touch with the game ?
At that point pls remove LA completly - why should i get rewarded for being able to weave ?
The people you try to buff dont even play the game actually they are more for RP and whatever session, its incredible disappointing that you never listened to playerbase.

Do you know why we kick them from the group, cause its frustrating to have a LA Spammer with Bow or staff just doing nothing. They play Skyrym without abilities,- yeah i love when my dungeon takes 30min at the endboss cause the cp 2000 guy with heavy armor just uses LA and maybe a ultimate.
So you wanna give those people the same dmg on LA then a perosn who builds his cha to deal dmg ?

Maybe nerf Dmg of La and make certain points - 1000 Stam = 1k more Dmg, but nothing like that.

NeeScrolls

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Well any of you who like playing werewolf are now irrelevant. WW uses light and a heavy attacks as primary damage, .

hmm, fair point yeah and also what about VAMPIRE effect too?

@ZOS_Gilliam , any chance u guys considered how the supposedly "fringe" WW & Vamp players (who are mostly "casuals" btw, thanks to repeated nerfs) might be affected by Update 35 changes? And if so, could you share some of those internal chats/plans?

Pretty please with Crown Crates on top?
.

miawmiaw1337

A healthy game has small dps increase every update with new gear to give a feeling of progression and also slightly harder new content to keep up with that dps increase. This allows more casual players to finally be able to do old content they were unable to do. Nerfs just make everyone sad and takes away the feeling of progression. Also all the massive frequent changes will actually widen the dps gap because casual players cant be bothered to change their builds all the time.

saf227_ESO

This is a welcome change. I'm sick & tired of perfect weaving be the end-all and be-all of damage in ESO. I practice for hours on end, tweak builds & rotations, and still top out around 70K dps. That's it. I've worked & tried & done my best and that's what I can do. And because of that, I'm told by numerous groups I liked to play with that I'm not good enough to participate in the activities I'd like to.
It's been very disheartening to play the game, and frankly I would have left years ago, except for all the friends I've made in the game. But I still miss the opportunity to do things I'd like.
I look forward to this change and thank the developers for recognizing the need for it.

Umajianu

These changes are only going halfway and will only make the situation worse imo. If you are committing to changing how the fundamental gameplay works I would like to see it replaced more than just removed. Some form of a "combo" system would be ideal tbh, be it from chaining skills or some other utility.

Though I also would prefer more positional mechanics like buffs from hitting behind or alongside allies. A parry system would be nice, too. Both would be more dynamic than animation cancelling and have a skill ceiling that requires practice.

Positioning and parrying are also more intuitive than learning that you have to cancel animations at the appropriate time, so if you want to cater to people, make them learn something that makes sense instead.

Urvoth

They definitely don't seem to understand the core issues with the game and are just listening to the mega casual crowd. ESO has a bot problem in that an absurd % of the playerbase are just complete bots who virtually ignore any of the combat mechanics instead of trying to improve themselves. This change will make the top 2% of players closer to the top 1% but it's not going to do much for the other 98% of the playerbase.

I think the root issue is the way the devs try to portray the game and have been developing content for it. If you just looked at eso from an uninformed outside perspective, you'd think it's just a casual questing tes game, which to an extent it is, but at the higher end of things it's probably one of the most mechanically challenging mmos out there, but they don't cater to that high end crowd at all. They've been slowly trying to cater more and more to casuals with the hybridization stuff, but in a lot of ways they're trying to force the game to be something it's not.

The devs def took the wrong approach to all this. If they had doubled down on the mechanical skill aspect like other games with high skill ceilings, they wouldn't be having this issue rn