Update 35 Combat Preview

Trundik

ZOS_Lunar wrote: »

Hi there!

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I think heat level just shows that something going wrong with those changes maybe...

novapixel

sounds boring

TechMaybeHic

But DOTs are mostly ineffective in PvP already save for outliers and a broken set or 2. Not sure watering then down in intensity in favor of duration makes sense when burst is still king. And HOT stacking is still there. If you water both down; it's just all burst damage and heals.

Galiferno

I truly don't understand catering to those who still aren't gonna utilize these changes while shafting those who can and do.

Tyvarra

You want feedback? Really? [snip]

Why make the game even more boring? Maybe I'm too old but some people play games for the challenge and to improve. I dont want everything to be easy!!!! [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Trundik

novapixel wrote: »

sounds boring

Well its more like doesn't fit expectations. Long time players waiting for improvement hoping it will be. High isle wasn't rly (imo). But anyway if child want to get candies, and then you giving unwanted candies and at the end you giving bad unwanted candies, things coming to worse. Why don't you ask child what exactly candy he/she wants? In this forum there is a lot of expectations and improvement posted... Maybe lets make a voting or something? I'm sure casual changes to weaving will be something far away from players chosen priorities what to change first.

Zer0oo

Maybe I am missing something, but the whole text does more or less read like: "We want to remove player skill from the game completely."

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Arunei wrote: »

[snip]

It's not a necessary patch. If you want to perform better at the game then you should put in the time to learn not be baby sit by developers making this game easier and easier for casuals. It's already the easiest mmo out there.

Except this ignores the people who literally CAN'T "git gud". People with disabilities or other health restrictions, people with bad ping/latency, people who simply cannot work out how to properly weave, people who get easily overwhelmed and thus have a hard time keeping up half a dozen DoTs/HoTs/buffs/debuffs, and any other number of limitations. Why do people always get up in arms when ZOS makes efforts to make the game more accessible to all players? You should be glad they're making these changes. Things like this ensure people can be more engaged with the game rather than being frustrated by it, which means more people play for longer. More people playing for longer means the servers stay online longer.

I don't get why people resort to calling accessibility changes "babysitting" or "hand-holding". It's literally just making it so more people have better access to more content. It doesn't mean a newb is going to be clearing vet HM dungeons on their second day playing. People will still have to put in the time to learn. These changes just mean that time spent is actually, you know, worthwhile. Because just learning doesn't mean being capable.

[edited to remove quote][/quote]

You just can’t understand the POV of the endgame community. We love this game because of the fast paced skill ceiling it has. Buff tracking and light attack weaving takes some time to learn and master and that just takes away from what we the end game community have been learning for years. If you can’t practice it or are incapable of performing it then the content shouldn’t be for you as simple and cruel as it sounds. Stick to questing in zones the content that is actually designed for you casuals.

MalVox37

This may come as a shock to y'all, I hope as shocking as reading these combat previews left me before I acted upon it, page and email scoured email so I could come here, sign in, and tell you.

These aspects of a dynamic, active, reactive, and robust combat system that you announced as inaccessible problem points needing overhauled just now…

Are actually what has separated this game from all others for eight years straight from a gameplay stance. With additions such as being TES based, communities, so much that makes this game the only game so people have played exclusively for 8 years. [snip] Because the only thing bad about the combat was bad performance. Which yall just started improving… please discard everything you just announced. And pick another direction. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Arvendir

I've been playing since the closed beta of the game

You've always tried to lower the gap between the "pro" and the new players but you always ended up to fail and get things worse

Most of the players already said a lot of obvious things about this useless change but let me add the fact that even if you will give to LA a flat damage, they will always be done perfectly by the good players and the gap will remain

Also, the new players tend to spam LA with some skills when they remember or tend to spam skills without LA.

The first case is the most common one. If you nerf the LA, you're just going to get the thing worse to all the casual players that live the game

On the other hand you're making the end game content of the game very boring for the veteran comminity

Whoever thought about these changes over these years, should really change perspective

TheGreatBlackBear

code65536 wrote: »

On the face of it, these sound like good changes for the long-term balance.

My main concern is content; specifically how historically, content has never been adjusted to accommodate nerfs in combat.

As you know, every new DLC, the content is balanced around what is possible at the top end. Consider the speedrun time for Dreadsail, for example.

And for many people for whom certain content objectives are out of reach, the gradual power creep in each patch is what allows them to tackle things a year or so down the line. So it's rather concerning that we get a power nerf right after the introduction of a new trial.

Second, the dungeons and trials team seems pretty hell-bent on increasing the strength of DoT damage on tanks in newer content, especially in Rockgrove and Dreadsail, even though we haven't had a healing power creep like we've had a DPS power creep. If you nerf the HoTs that are essential to countering those DoTs, then I should hope that there will be adjustments from the content side to match.

Agreed, part of the issue is dps can always be given a bandage with stronger sets/mythics and it will largely be fixed but realistically if there's healing deficit, a survivability set will never be on the table for a group pushing score/time.

Ominer

We want your feedback on our combat preview and proposals > wait, not that kind of feedback

I don't like this change; I don't like the constant narrowing of the skill gap in the game. You're catering to an extremely casual section of the player base.

The majority of players who this change will benefit, will not even have the awareness of gameplay mechanics to notice it.

They're so casual they are unlikely to be around in a few months but players who've been playing the game for 8 years get their feedback ignored and changes introduced that make the game worse.

It's frustrating but not surprising, everyone needs a participation trophy.

See:

Oakensoul
Weaving
Cloak Changes
Hybridisation
Cast Time on Ults
Animation Cancelling Removal

wolfie1.0.

I am tired of this... mess.

ZOS why are you never satisfied with your combat changes?

Been playing since 2015 and you spent the better part of that time changing combat balance. I understand that changes are part of your long term plans. But it gets taxing.
I have spent more time trying to UNLEARN what I know about combat than trying to learn the new systems

Balance is not just about flexibility and making changes. Balance is about stability and reliability something that ZOS has never apparently achieved otherwise we wouldn't have to go through this every single year since launch. Minor changes yes I think we can all see that. But major ones?

Also, you never make adjustments to PVE content to match your changes.

Just tired of it all. Which means my incentive to keep tossing you money just went down again.

pklemming

Not impressed at all. Weaving has been adopted for years after they failed to address the issue years ago now. I don't see this doing anything but reducing the last vestiges of fun in this game.

After previous combat fixes have been hideously implemented, I don't see this going any different.

Remember the last attempt to change light and heavy attack damage.. I do...

Maybe I will find something that actually requires skill.

While you are at it, maybe just give tanks permanent block, because it must be hard on tanks having to press the block key during mechanics.

Zer0oo

Maybe instead of removing skill from the game, how about motivating new players to learn how to play the game

xylena_lazarow

DoT abilities already badly underperform in PvP and you're further nerfing them?

Will the various forms of overpowered PvP healing be addressed?

VixxVexx

Just don't barswap guys
Just don't weave guys
Just don't keep your buffs up guys

Anyways here is my rotation: Whip go brrrr x10 > Whip go brrrr x10 > Alt + F4

SilverPaws

Tired of constant dumbing down the game and removing every ounce of skill gap that was left. Spent at least 7 years learning this game to perform good [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Magio_

[snip]

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Weaving
For reference, in many of ESO’s high-end experiences and activities, the average build sees roughly 15–20% of their overall damage coming from Light Attacks alone

How much of the remaining 80-85% non-Light Attack damage of a "high-end" parse do these low skill light-attack-weaving haters do? None of them are parsing 96k from skills because their skill rotation is also bad. You don't even need 120k+ parses to clear most content in the game. The player that does 20k DPS on the Trial Dummy but does mechanics perfectly is a myth. You're dumbing down the game and completely changing it and it will not make bad players do better.

The difficulty of the Overland content is already a joke. Quest bosses die too fast it's not fun for anyone that can click 2 buttons in 1 second. Why do actual casual Overlanders need to close the gap in DPS? Gear progression in this game is already easy. Not only is Normal Mode gear the same for most content, but you finally broke a few years ago and put vMA weapons in Normal Mode and made veterans run that content again for a small stat line just so bad players that couldn't clear Vet Arenas could get them too. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

VaranisArano

This update is what Horizontal Progression looks like.



Yeah, the Devs laid the groundwork for the current powercreep due to LA weaving back in Summerset when they introduced scaling. They're walking it back now.

But hey, they got four good years out of the LA weaving meta, and will get still more player engagement by shaking up the meta now by removing scaling. Four years from now, maybe they'll reintroduce it?

Folks, if you're feeling the change fatigue rolling over you just reading this, it's probably a good time to consider how much time you want to spend on the hamster wheel to follow the meta. The pace of change might slow after this update (or it might not), but ever since ESO went to One Tamriel, the Devs have relied on periodically shaking up the meta to keep players working towards something. There's plenty of content that can be enjoyed without meta gear or with slightly-less-than meta gear. I stopped chasing the meta myself when I felt I was burning out, so I found other activities in ESO to enjoy.

If you do chase the meta, more power to you.



^ It's not a good thing or a bad thing, necessarily. It's just how ZOS keeps ESO's combat from getting stale.

Lalothen

I think we'll see the floor a bit closer to the ceiling with these changes, though perhaps not as much as predicted. It's good that weaving will still ostensibly offer a significant chunk of extra DPS (though clearly that's not enough for some *sigh*), and that players will be able to spend less time actively recasting DoTs. The DoT change will be interesting, as in some cases DoTs with up-front damage components may do more DPS when recast early, it just depends on how the numbers are changed.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what happens with heavy attack sets; I'm still running a HA MagDK in vDSR progression, but I'm not currently using any HA-buffing gear besides front-barring Maelstrom lightning. I have my fingers crossed.... I'll see what the notes say and what PTS testing shows me. I don't necessarily want to see 30%+ of my dps coming from HAs again, but rather more procs and things that trigger on a fully charged heavy, e.g. Infiltrator & Unweaver could have a 10s proc that adds an amount of shock damage to heavy attacks that scales the same way other procs do, and Infallible could add magic damage, etc.

Trundik

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

[snip]

It's not a necessary patch. If you want to perform better at the game then you should put in the time to learn not be baby sit by developers making this game easier and easier for casuals. It's already the easiest mmo out there.

Except this ignores the people who literally CAN'T "git gud". People with disabilities or other health restrictions, people with bad ping/latency, people who simply cannot work out how to properly weave, people who get easily overwhelmed and thus have a hard time keeping up half a dozen DoTs/HoTs/buffs/debuffs, and any other number of limitations. Why do people always get up in arms when ZOS makes efforts to make the game more accessible to all players?

Come on, bro, that logic is devastating. People with disabilities can play quests or normal content pretty fine. Removing difficulty means a lot of player will lose the whole point... And then you will stay here in kindergarten with all those casual base. THere is player made social guilds, even roleplay ones, housing etc. Why improvement to casual base should be done in cost of some another cathegory base harm. Improvement means doign better. And that i would call sacrifice one to another. Experienced players is outraged honestly with this because their skill achievements and time investment will be multiplied to 0.

Unknown_Redemption

These are much needed changes.

Thank you for continuing to look at the problem with LA damage.

My only request, please, dont yield to the community like what happened two years ago when LA/HA changes were presented.

Tyvarra

ZOS I wonder, do you only want new players that leave after a few month or do you also want old players to stay? People only stay if they have something to do, something that feels worth doing. Removing the learning curve is definitely the wrong approach. Games that are too easy get boring very quickly. I'm no pro at weaving myself and could still improve but I dont want it to change. Its part of what makes the combat so unique. No other game did hold me for as long as eso did and that is basically because of the active combat system. I dont PvE much, I dont care about new zones or dungeons. All I care about is the combat system and PvP. Thats all I needed in 8 years.

The only thing that needs to change/improve is the server lag. Speaking of when is EU getting the new servers? :P

Flaaklypa

great changes. thanks zos!

FantasticFreddie

Update 34: "We are going to make your light and heavy attacks scale with your highest stats!"

Update 35: "We are going to make light and heavy attacks not scale at all!"

????????
It's been a month!!!! Why! Do! You! Keep! Making! Giant! Changes!!!! All! The!! Time!!!

Master_AlucarD

Better directly go the final step to "fix" the gap: Remove all skills and leave us with B = Block and A = Attack

Iselin

Bad weavers will still weave badly compared to good weavers. All you're going to accomplish with these changes is that you're going to lower every players DPS and will do nothing to close the gap between the low end and high end players.

Especially, as others have already said, the really low end players who tend to often do nothing but pew pew bow light attacks. You're going to end up making their contribution to groups even worse than it already is.

Jamie_Aubrey

Translation: This is to help new players, F those end game guys

IrishJack72

Telling us to brace ourselves for the coming changes. Yikes