Update 35 Combat Preview

superryan94

Being a climber I often go to a climbing hall to practice my sport. At some point I found a route I could not do because it was very hard. I tried forcing my way through the route every time I got there, but I could not do it.
At some point someone offered me some help explaining technique which would make it much easier for me to get through harder routes. Those techniques felt weird at first, but after some point it became natural to move in specific ways and this makes it a whole lot easier for me to get through hard routes.

Now, I can of course complain the the route is to hard and that they need to change it. This however doesn't change the fact that I'm still at the level I'm at and that someone who's way better just does the route like it's nothing.

Same applies to playing a violin. Complaining that a musical piece is to hard won't magically make the piece easier, practicing does.
If I want to run a marathon I can complain that it's to long, but a marathon is designed to be a challenge you need to train to get stamina needed to complete it.

Now, translate these things to the game.
Something gets designed to be hard. The ones who are really good enjoy it. But like the majority of people looking at a wall, a violin or marathon, this seems totally impossible.
However, with training and dedication you can get most things done.
I know a 1 armed man who's climbing a higher level than me, there are blind people playing the violin beautifully and people who lost a leg that run the marathon.
But all those things didn't come overnight, they came with years of practice.
Someone pulling 150K dps didn't do that because they just do it, they do it because they trained for it for a long time with dedication for what they do.

Changing the rules will not make things easier for novice players and harder for good players.
Changing the rules will mean novice players needs to relearn things and the very good players adapt and go on.
What will help the novice players is actual tutorials in the game on how to do things like weaving for dd, add control for tanks and such.


Being a tank I don't care if you put a hardcap on dps or take away weaving entirely, I'm just standing there doing my thing.
But it will be a problem that if the players that get 60% of their damage from light attacks now have lower dps because they do not weave.

lamGroot

Surely this is a joke ? Such a change will make the next Patch many peoples last. Such changes also haven't been focused around some of the newer content such as Rockgrove and Dreadsail Reef which are a challenge already and a sure damage check . I can't see this being a sensible move for the game.

dsb1

I use nothing but heavy attack most of the time so your going to lower its damage. well all I can say is I will play another game thanks

SpiralStorm4

pklemming wrote: »

Not impressed at all. Weaving has been adopted for years after they failed to address the issue years ago now. I don't see this doing anything but reducing the last vestiges of fun in this game.

After previous combat fixes have been hideously implemented, I don't see this going any different.

Remember the last attempt to change light and heavy attack damage.. I do...

Maybe I will find something that actually requires skill.

While you are at it, maybe just give tanks a permanent block, because it must be hard on tanks having to press the block key during mechanics.

All of this is just so funny because it's TRUE!! In response, I shall now include one sentence which the person directly below this post wrote: Maybe instead of removing skill from the game, how about motivating new players to learn how to play the game? <---- THIS is the solution ZoS needs to bring in if they have any interest in their game surviving at all.

Why? When I started playing this back in 2017 or so, I required YEARS of training and experience before I found my own perfect niche within ES0's fast-paced combat scenarios. If this update is going to DECREASE the amount of damage ANY of my skills inflict, I'm afraid such an update will make veteran players like me far less likely to keep on play-training. Sheesh!!

JMadFour

I say this as a player who is far less bothered by the changes than everyone else is. I'm not here to argue whether the changes are good or bad. I don't have access to the PTS as a Console Player, so I cannot judge for myself.

I am here to argue that it DOESN'T MATTER if the changes are good for the game or not.

At this point there is just SO much outrage, and SO much absolute venomous hatred for these patch notes from virtually everyone in the community, that ZOS would be better off just scrapping the changes wholesale and releasing U35 with no combat changes at all. Just release the dungeons and leave it be.

I think if they go forward with this at all, even if they make substantial changes in the upcoming PTS patches, it won't matter. The community is already pissed off and quitting or whatever, and nothing they can do in 5 weeks short of just scrapping everything entirely will win anyone over.

It's a no-win situation for ZOS. Just cut bait and move forward.

I think ZOS should just take the L, wipe all the combat changes and go forward with nothing, and just leave the combat exactly the way it is on Live, and don't mess with it further at all in any way.

Faltasë

This update is terrible because it punishes everyone for the feats of the greatest players. You don't do this without causing harm to the entire player base and that is why you will see veteran players quit once U35 comes out. Balancing a game off the 1% because they parsed 140k is a terrible combat design philosophy and in the long run, will kill your game.

Don't even get me started on the Warden changes, because thank you, you just killed my favorite class and made them almost useless as a DPS, which I was starting to enjoy.

I been with this game since 2015 and it's safe to say I am canceling my subscription and quitting. And most of the player base agrees this is a bad idea.

Zoltan_117

Just caught wind of these changes as a veteran player whose not playing right now because of the combat.

I will say that the objective and driver behind these changes is spot on and I am super keen for it as someone who doesn't want to be weaving, rebuffing and switching bars like a maniac.

As far as the actual numbers and damage output, sure that probably needs refinement but the objective is warranted.

Fingolfinn01

Zoltan_117 wrote: »

Just caught wind of these changes as a veteran player whose not playing right now because of the combat.

I will say that the objective and driver behind these changes is spot on and I am super keen for it as someone who doesn't want to be weaving, rebuffing and switching bars like a maniac.

As far as the actual numbers and damage output, sure that probably needs refinement but the objective is warranted.

Thats the purpose. However we are getting feed back that its hurting the lower end dps parses more than the top end.

Iselin

Zoltan_117 wrote: »

Just caught wind of these changes as a veteran player whose not playing right now because of the combat.

I will say that the objective and driver behind these changes is spot on and I am super keen for it as someone who doesn't want to be weaving, rebuffing and switching bars like a maniac.

As far as the actual numbers and damage output, sure that probably needs refinement but the objective is warranted.

The actual changes can not accomplish the stated objective.

A general DPS nerf to DOTs certainly won't and the LA and HA nerfs in theory sound like they could a very tiny bit but only if you assume that top tier players use LA and HA more than those near the bottom.

But I've done enough dungeon PUGs with new players to know that they also tend to rely on LAs and HAs a lot - not because they weave but because they are not very good at managing resources or just because a LMB click is the easiest thing you can do.

There's only one change that could accomplish their stated player power compression goal but they either can't or won't put the effect of skills and LAs at the end of the animation rather than the beginning. That way, if you animation cancel, you lose the effect of what you cancelled.

Cancelling then becomes a conscious strategic choice between damage or defense instead of just an automatic + DPS freebie.

Elsonso

@ZOS_Kevin ... Can we get a Week 1 Update from the Combat Team? Pretty please?

SimonThesis

I want to see the combat team achieve a vDSR Trifecta and vRG Trifecta on the PTS with the new changes in place without any dev buffs. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

That is the only thing that could convince me these combat changes aren't as bad as everyone's much much lower parse numbers on the PTS seem.

I think actually seeing the people making these changes complete the hardest pve Trifectas would go along way as a sign of goodwill to the community and prove that these achievements will still be possible.

joaotextor

SimonThesis wrote: »

I want to see the combat team achieve a vDSR Trifecta and vRG Trifecta on the PTS with the new changes in place without any dev buffs. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

That is the only thing that could convince me these combat changes aren't as bad as everyone's much much lower parse numbers on the PTS seem.

I think actually seeing the people making these changes complete the hardest pve Trifectas would go along way as a sign of goodwill to the community and prove that these achievements will still be possible.

That is my fear: making even harder to do this kind of content. I'm nowhere near having good DPS for trifecta on Veteran Trials, but I still had hope I can accomplish this in a near future. However, with this combat changes, those accomplishments seems a distant dream right now.

It seems combats will last longer now.

I recently started playing with Magcro and I'm finding it difficult due to short DoT duration. I almost don't have time to hit my spammable before needing to reactivate all my DoTs and buffs, which keeps my sight on the bars instead of the actual combat. However, I know I need practice and it this rotation will become natural in the future.

It seems ZOS is just trying to make the game easier, reducing the need for training.

I have the feeling those balances aim to address the company's needs to increase the player base and the net income, rather than solving some problem that, in my opinion, does not exist.

Elsonso

Elsonso wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin ... Can we get a Week 1 Update from the Combat Team? Pretty please?

Thanks for the update @ZOS_Kevin

Xandreia_

Lazuli wrote: »

I'm so happy with these changes .. the ESO elitist won't be happy about it , but it gives us (avergae players) a chance to join vet runs .. etc.

Uhm, I don't think you understand what is happening.

I mean absolutely no disrespect in saying this but if you don't want to get better and get that dps higher to get in vet runs as it is right now, after the patch you will have 0 chance of getting in any runs. What the devs are proposing is effectively removing light attack weaving which from experience of joining pug dungeon runs makes up for atleast 70% of people's damage. Nerfing "eso elitists" won't do anything apart from making that side of the community get even more tight with restrictions on who can join and who can't, it's going to hurt the casuals more than the "elitists" and cause a huge divide across the whole community

Zoltan_117

Iselin wrote: »

There's only one change that could accomplish their stated player power compression goal but they either can't or won't put the effect of skills and LAs at the end of the animation rather than the beginning. That way, if you animation cancel, you lose the effect of what you cancelled.

Cancelling then becomes a conscious strategic choice between damage or defense instead of just an automatic + DPS freebie.

Can't disagree with this, does in theory sound like the ideal fix, but I assume it will upset a lot more players in that they would be removing weaving entirely.

Sarannah

The light attack change was needed, as everyone got a 1k spell/weapon damage bonus recently. Which also affected light and heavy attacks's damage a lot, and made them too impactful. So this is a good change!

The DOT change however, I don't mind the longer DOT's but they should not receive a damage reduction. As that would make them ineffective to even use at all. Do attacks like the wall of elements ground DOT fall under DOT attacks?... If so, a longer duration does not save on resources. As we would have to cast that ground DOT just as often as before, as players and mobs move out of it. Having a longer duration would in this case only be theoretical, and would practically not work like that in-game.

Keep up the good work!

Destyran

How to lose money speed run any% update 35

magikyr

to increase the damage for beginners it would be more useful to grant a damage bonus of 0.5% per missed light attack stackable up to about 15% or so ...
or a CP that brings 20% more damage but weakens the weaving

changing the light attacks just takes too much influence on the "ballance" if there is one

Anhedonie

Last time I was excited for something, was release of necromancer class.
Keep it up [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Lucozade85

Most of the people that these changes are catered for probably aren't aware that the changes are incoming, or what the PTS is.

How are the changes to the more casual player going to be monitored?

blktauna

Ok, I'm not exactly a pleb but I'm no top end player. I went into PTS with my usual NA toons and with this update I was wholly unable to clear the content I clear currently on the Live server. Sustain was crap, Damage was nothing. I got slapped in Glenumbra on the lurcher boss that I solo easily.

This update has zero to do with helping middling and low end players, zero.

It shows to have everything to do with reducing server traffic.

tomothy94

i will start this by saying I and many others have already cancelled or turned off auto renew for eso+ and we do not intend to resub unless this is re-thought.

Hello, I am coming from the Xbox Eu Server to share our dismay at the changes as they currently stand.

You will be literally destroying the endgame community on Xbox eu if these changes go through without some kind of amendment.

We totally understand the need to nerf damage but as it stands the content you have put out will barely be possible for even the beat of players if these changes go through.
Surely zenimax online cannot intend to make their content literally un-completable?

The light attack nerf alone would have been enough and would have closed the gap a little despite it still being flawed, but the changes to how heals work and tick makes some content nigh on impossible without genuine luck, due to the fact most of your skills dont affect more than 6 people at once.

Cynical_Alchemist

Just putting this post up here - more data. Parses for my main, Stamsorc on Live and PTS on 21mill Iron Atronach dummy. Almost the same (around 75k DPS), but due to inclusion of Major Savagery, it represents a 10% decrease to DPS.

Also included here is similar comparative parses on a 6mill dummy, showing more accurately the drop (36k DPS down to 30k DPS).

Also included here are two WB combat metrics results for a PvP magDK build (Nilthog). Again - a drop of DPS, even for a way off-meta build (15-16k DPS down to 13k DPS).

These changes will not help mid-level or beginner players to do content. It will prolong any fight they have, resulting in more mechanics, more wipes, and more rage quits.

Sorc Build:


Sorc 21mill Live Parse:


Sorc 21mill PTS Parse:


Sorc 6mill Live Parse:


Sorc 6mill PTS Parse:


MagDK PvP Build:


MagDK WB Live:


MagDK WB PTS:


Over to you ZOS.

darrenwalsh289

This is honestly the worst idea I’ve ever heard. So you are saying to your biggest fans, the ones who spent years committed to your game and honing their skills to become better players “you are too good, we now need to make you not as good so that newer people can feel in their minds they are as good as you”. 25% of the people I know are quitting, and it is the best 25%. You people will regret this

GrigorijMalahevich

Love these changes! Keep up the good work! Thank you so much!

JanTanhide

Don't agree with any of update 35. I've been on the PTS testing my current Live builds and it's just not fun. If you like dropping 4 to 6 DOT's and then spamming direct attacks for two to three times as long as you do now on Live then this is for you. If you want to not run Vet DLC content then this update is for you. It lowers all HOT's and DOTs across the board and makes it one boring mess.

I don't understand why the game is being gutted. Massive exodus of players from the game due to this upcoming patch.

JanTanhide

SimonThesis wrote: »

They're nerfing everyone and not changing the difficulty of content, this makes pve groups even more restrictive and picky and now there's less margin for error.

Nerfing everyone is not going to make a player unable of doing vet content suddenly able to, it just means less people are going to be willing to help that person along as the people who would have helped them now may have a harder time of doing the content themselves.

It's going to be even harder since many Vet players have left the game due to this or will when it goes live.

Jaraal

JanTanhide wrote: »

If you like dropping 4 to 6 DOT's and then spamming direct attacks for two to three times as long as you do now on Live then this is for you. If you want to not run Vet DLC content then this update is for you. It lowers all HOT's and DOTs across the board and makes it one boring mess.

It's even worse for PvP, because now instead of players purging your fast acting DOTs, they will be purging your slow acting DOTs. Add in the HA/LA damage nerf, and the number of unkillable builds will grow exponentially. And the folks who are running standard two bar builds will be forced to run Oakensoul to maintain buffs against Nocturnal's Ploy.

It's gonna be ugly when U35 hits Live, folks.

joaotextor

LuckyGhost wrote: »

Good changes IMO. Light attacks doing 20% of my damage when I had to utilize 10 abilities and 2 ultimates to claw out the other 80% just felt weird. The highest damage ability in a parse was the basic light attack? Never made sense to me.

Light attacks still accounting for 6-11% of the damage sounds solid enough to be rewarding, and even essential for an optimized build, but not so overreaching as it was before. I don't understand the frustration with bringing down LA dmg a little bit tbh.

Dots lasting longer is very interesting. My necro's spammable wont be barswap? I'll actually get to use a spammable. I'm excited to see how this plays out and what kind of sets and builds we can utilize to take advantage of the changes

Dots lasting longer is interesting indeed, as long as they do the exact damage per second.
TOTALLY agree on necro's thing. I love playing as necro, but my spammable is the barswap right now. LMAO.

anvilbert

Ok here is something I have heard discussed and asked repeatedly since the cp 3600 patch when players were nerfed in the ground and Zos entered into negotiations with Microsoft. Are you purposely sabotaging the game in order to leave sony servers. I do beleive this is a legitimate concern because Xbox turned off all Xbox 360 servers to push sales of their new system of the XBox One. So is this the new Microsoft sales strategy hopeing to boost Xbox sales, makes you think doesn't it. I personally am already looking for a new game to play after sinking hundreds of $ into this one I will not stick around to be nerfed back to a beginner level again. If you go through with this patch that question is already being asked in game by many players now.