Official Discussion Thread for "Update 33 Preview- Account-Wide Achievements and More"

ZOS_Kevin

This is the official discussion thread for "Update 33 Preview- Account-Wide Achievements and More"

"The Elder Scrolls Online’s Update 33 is approaching and will introduce changes to the achievements system, PvP rewards, and an all-new Assistant!"

deleted221106-002999

Thanks for robbing me of individual character journalling, history and development. Thanks for robbing me of extra character slots bought. Thanks for asking for feedback and then ignoring 60+ pages of it.

Congratulations on wrecking elder scrolls replayability; going to be very interesting to see the reactions of players currently unaware of this when it goes live, complete with bugs.

Not impressed.

method__01

and again,a big *** from zos to players who spend years doing the stories with multi toons and/or with different accounts

disappointment

redspecter23

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Thanks for robbing me of individual character journalling, history and development. Thanks for robbing me of extra character slots bought. Thanks for asking for feedback and then ignoring 60+ pages of it.

Congratulations on wrecking elder scrolls replayability; going to be very interesting to see the reactions of players currently unaware of this when it goes live, complete with bugs.

Not impressed.

To offer an alternative,

Thank you ZOS for creating situations where I'm encouraged to play my alts rather than just play my main. Thank you for adding account wide journalling, history and development. Thanks for giving me more opportunities to use the extra character slots I've bought as I'm not "locked" into my main anymore. Thank you for asking for feedback and beginning to implement some fixes to issues such as museum progress.

Congratulations for reinvigorating my replayability.

Very impressed.

I thought it would be important to note that while there are quite a few that are upset at the changes, there are also those that support them, though we may be drowned out in the crowd.

Kesstryl

Copying over my PTS feedback so everyone can see what is coming with this update, and what a mess it is:

Dear ZOS,

Elder Scrolls has always been an RPG first and foremost. The single player games were not just games to beat, they provided a world you could immerse into, where you could suspend your disbelief and actually feel like a person in that world trying to save it from whatever danger threatened Nirn. ESO had a rocky beginning, but over time, ZOS, you got it right, and it really felt like an Elder Scrolls game. The best part about it was, I wasn't limited to just one character doing the story, I could create multiple characters and they all didn't have to do the same story. I have one character only, my woodelf Kesstryl, who completed Coldharbor and is the one I consider The Vestige. My other characters are heroes in other parts of the world. My Nord Reynild is the hero of Western Skyrim and Markath. My Argonian Speaks-With-Trees is the hero of Morrowind. My Altmer Malatunir, an Ayleid descendant, is the hero of Blackwood and the Deadlands. He also saved the souls of argonians and righted the wrongs of his ancestors in the Murkmire story. My Khajiit Maila is a master thief. My Breton Luceya is a lawful good healer hired by adventurers to keep them safe through evil places (basically my dungeon and trials healer). My Dunmer Varla helped Sotha Sil to save Clockwork City.

Each character played through different content because that was their story. When I replay content, sometimes I'll apply the costume of the first character and pretend it's that character going through it again. I know that's weird, but in my mind each of these stories belongs to one character, and any others repeating them are sort of "dreaming" the story of that character. My characters are not extensions of me the player, they're people living in different places in Tamriel rising to the occasion. I don't want to be reminded that they are just tools I'm using to play a game. I want them to remain individual people in Tamriel with their own histories and stories, and their own achievements and tracking. I don't want to lose this. I don't want to look at a map in a place Reynild has never been to and see it already explored because Kesstryl was already there. I don't want my healer Luceya to have NPCs respond to her as if she's a master thief because Maila put that achievement on my account. I don't want to lose my second chance at talking with Count Ravenwatch at the end of the Markath story for his final thoughts and be welcomed into House Ravenwatch on a character playing through the story again because Reynild was the first to have spoken to him and gotten the achievement. I don't want NPCs in Western Skyrim to respond to Varla, who's never been there, as if she is the one who saved them and not Reynild. I don't want Reynild to be thanked for stopping the Planemeld when it was Kesstryl who did that. Do you see what this mess is doing to my characters? Do you see how it's ruining the game for me? How long, ZOS, do you think people like me will be able to stand this kind of ruin before we simply walk away and don't log in again?

Fine, ZOS, you want to make ESO like every other MMO out there. How about copying what World of Warcraft did, the most successful MMO ever, which was to implement Account Wide Achievements in addition to Character achievements so both existed simultaneously? Why not that? Keep NPCs and quests tied to the character data so the account data doesn't break immersion for my individual characters? Let me track my individual character achievements, and even get the ding message when that character accomplishes something for the first time, just like WoW has. You want to be like other games, but you are ruining what makes an Elder Scrolls game unique, which is that it's built on a solid RPG foundation. RPGs don't merge characters into an amalgamation and have the world treat all alts as if they all did the same thing. It would cease being an RPG and simply be a game to beat once, and then move on to something else. You want people to just beat ESO once and then move on because they achieved it all? Is this a game to beat or an RPG? Is this beautiful and immersive world simply there to be a background to score pushing and beating the system? It's not there to create characters that are part of it and that have stories in it as they work along side some of the best NPCs you ever created that are wonderfully voice acted? You want players to think of their characters as simple tools that you really only need one of because individually they don't exist, only the player exists and that's all that matters? You have no idea how bad this is. Please listen to us and put off the Account Wide Achievement update until you can fix this properly. Otherwise, you could easily save money by firing all the voice actors and writers and just get rid of quests and just make more dungeons and trials and PvP and call it a day. Change the name from Elder Scrolls to something else while you're at it, it will lose its soul as an Elder Scrolls game. Gutting characters is the first step towards that.

and my follow up comment to today's article:

Dear ZOS

Well, since this is a done deal, let me add more feedback. ZOS, you had weeks of internal testing to figure out where achievements would affect quests and how NPCs react to our characters. From the bugs seen with quests and NPC reactions to alts who've never done the story lines in those zones, I can't believe you didn't fix these obvious issues BEFORE rolling it to PTS. The hamfisted way of merging achievements but not untying NPC reactions and quests from those achievements has ruined this game for those of us who come here for the stories and the role play. I've already made my case clear in a previous, quite long comment about how this destroys the way I play. The least you could have done was figure out a way to untie NPC reactions and quests from achievements and implement an alternative way to have those things tied to our characters.

Ok, you finally admitted this was for performance and not some magnanimous gift to players out of feedback and goodwill. I can accept losses to keep the game healthy. I will NEVER accept a shoddy implementation that destroys immersion and how the world of Tamriel reacts to my alts. If you can't (or won't) fix those things, I'm out. I'm done. I spent a lot of money over these 8 years on your game through subs, crown buying, invested a lot of that into housing, outfits, pets, etc. You will not have my money anymore. I don't pay to play a product that is so badly done that it destroys what the RPG world of Elder Scrolls is and makes it as immersive as the next generic MMOG that everyone plays through once and then forgets.

I've put up with a lot of changes I didn't like over the years from you. When nerfs wrecked my progression groups, I always thought to myself, well, there's always this beautiful world and great quests to play through again, they can't ever wreck role play. OMG I was so wrong! You managed to wreck that too. Good job on that, I don't think I've ever heard of a game that nerfed role play before. You get the achievement for that!

You have two weeks to fix this, that's how long my now cancelled sub lasts. I will not subject my characters to living in a world where NPCs have this amnesia plague about who they are and what they've done. This literally has caused such anxiety that I feel literally sick to my stomach about it. This game was my escape from the real world, a place to suspend my disbelief and live another life through my characters so I could feel better when I returned to the real world again. I'll have to find that somewhere else now, and trust me, I certainly will if this isn't fixed, and that place will get my hard earned money that I work hard for so I can escape for a little while in my off time. I get the sense that you don't take role players as seriously as score pushers and PvPers, or you would have fixed these things before letting this crap hit PTS. That disrespect also makes me sick to my stomach. Your game doesn't deserve the title of Elder Scrolls. I've never seen this IP so mismanaged.

VaranisArano

deleted221106-002999

redspecter23 wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Thanks for robbing me of individual character journalling, history and development. Thanks for robbing me of extra character slots bought. Thanks for asking for feedback and then ignoring 60+ pages of it.

Congratulations on wrecking elder scrolls replayability; going to be very interesting to see the reactions of players currently unaware of this when it goes live, complete with bugs.

Not impressed.

To offer an alternative,

Thank you ZOS for creating situations where I'm encouraged to play my alts rather than just play my main. Thank you for adding account wide journalling, history and development. Thanks for giving me more opportunities to use the extra character slots I've bought as I'm not "locked" into my main anymore. Thank you for asking for feedback and beginning to implement some fixes to issues such as museum progress.

Congratulations for reinvigorating my replayability.

Very impressed.

I thought it would be important to note that while there are quite a few that are upset at the changes, there are also those that support them, though we may be drowned out in the crowd.

No idea why you quoted me.

If your 'alternative' view held independent merit then posting it would have sufficed without seeking justification from another.

Very odd.

Most feedback was not opposed to account-wide achievements but to the implementation of it that directly ruined character specifics. Anyone who had bothered to review those 60+ pages would've recognised and understood this.

It was possible to have both and I would've thanked zos for being considerate if they had retained what we have and introduced account-wide as an extra.

They did not and have not.

There's nothing at all to laud here.

Arthtur

Destroying something in order to add new stuff is a... weak move.

So for pll who dont know whats coming. A lot of bugs. I mean A LOT of bugs. NPC will treat your lv 3 character as a hero who saved Tamriel when he didnt even do one quest. Your pacifist character will have all achievements for killing. Your 10 Master Anglers become 1. Everything is "completed" on the map when u get in range to it (WB, Delve, Group event). And more and more bad stuff. There is over 60 pages of feedback on PTS where the only thing we get was a silence and lies.
There is a link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/596970/pts-update-33-feedback-thread-for-account-wide-achievements/p1

And no. There is no longer any way to track what your characters did. All data about that is just destroyed after this goes live. Soo all your "alts" will have achievements done by your main.

Araneae6537

@redspecter23 I would have been very happy for ZOS to add features to better accommodate your playstyle such as the OPTION to unlock completed achievements to a character or across the account. Or even if ZOS wanted to remake the achievement system to be proper AWA alongside character tracking like other MMOs (SWTOR, GW2, WoW, etc.) This terrible cobbled system breaks so much of the game and I think many who wanted proper AWA or were on the fence about it (myself) will be horrified when this mess goes live.

Tandor

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Thanks for robbing me of individual character journalling, history and development. Thanks for robbing me of extra character slots bought. Thanks for asking for feedback and then ignoring 60+ pages of it.

Congratulations on wrecking elder scrolls replayability; going to be very interesting to see the reactions of players currently unaware of this when it goes live, complete with bugs.

Not impressed.

Agreed, this sums up my feelings pretty well. Multiple account ESO+ cancellations incoming after 8 years if it goes Live in the mess it's in currently on PTS.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

ZoS needs to improve their proof-reading:
"With the database’s overall footprint reduced, it will more performant across the board"

To be, or not to be, is that the question?

Araneae6537

Wow, ZOS, zero response to ANY the of concerns regarding broken quests and NPC interactions and basic functionality of being able to track character progress — things that really should have been thought of and addressed beforehand anyway.

I LOVE ESO and have been ESO+ since I started playing even through breaks and times when I felt less happy with aspects of the game — and I had been feeling MORE positive about ESO overall up through the beginning of this year.

I LOVE my characters and that’s the main driver in my choosing and staying with an MMORPG. I’ve bought Crowns full price if the perfect costume or mount for an alt was released because that brings me joy.

I cried when I cancelled ESO+ but how can do otherwise when so much heartfelt concern and feedback have been met with cold silence??? If my words are worthless, perhaps my money will speak louder.

Oliviander

I actually wrote this on the PTS trhead already
but as ZOS ended the topic without any feedback
i repeat it here desperately:

It is really ok for me that ESO atttracts Non Role Players too !

But ESO was sold to us as a MMO Role Playing Game.
And it was a Role Playing Game for 8 Years
And therefore I am absolutely against ripping us of our Characters history.
Because this ends ESO being a Role Playing Game.

For real Roleplayers this will feel exactly the same
as playing soccer without a ball !!

And so I guess many will decide to cease playing.

PS:

I'm a member since March 2013 and just canceled my sub over this
ridiciulous move to trash my characters history.

Lauranae

This is the second game which decided to mess up with players and ruin a game. FIrst one on Feb 15 2022 and eso soon too.

The other game lost already a lot of subs. They did exactly as ESO (or ESO did exactly as them) and revamped the game in their view, but in fact destroyed it.

Both games took arbitrary decisions, ignored the PTS, and vague of unsubs. (the first game delivered a patch with a list of bugs longer than a patch notes) and it seems that ESO is doing the same.

So i understand, less data = more space on servers BUT with all the subs you have and the crown store sells, are you telling us that you are short on money to add more server ??? and that the only solution is to cut on the fun of your players ??

Dont you see the ridicule here ? you want more players, though you are making the game less appealing.
When the new players will have replaced those who quit, and they will realise there is not reason to create alts, what will happens ? They will take more and more break from the game and only come back for a new expansion.

Well done!!

Oh and i forgot!!! my advice to all those who spent their time testing on the PTS, stop testing, that will change nothing.

---

as a lot of us, i have several account (3) and i enjoy all my characters. Some are only crafters and i dont want them to appear in game as Hero. They are simple people. Some have their own story in your story .

So you are actually advertising the game as it was before https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/discover, when in fact half of the promess on that page are now a total lie.

If i was tempted to stay, that would mean for you : 1 sub, not 3. No new outfitting, no new houses, no new mount needed, nore pets. One character does not need more as i would not play the other characters at all.

---

Now that i think about, did Microsoft acted with Zenimax Media and enforced those changes ?

Giraffon

Are they going to offer us a refund or something? Does this have the makings of a class action lawsuit?

opaj

Kesstryl wrote: »

I don't want my healer Luceya to have NPCs respond to her as if she's a master thief because Maila put that achievement on my account. I don't want to lose my second chance at talking with Count Ravenwatch at the end of the Markath story for his final thoughts and be welcomed into House Ravenwatch on a character playing through the story again because Reynild was the first to have spoken to him and gotten the achievement. I don't want NPCs in Western Skyrim to respond to Varla, who's never been there, as if she is the one who saved them and not Reynild. I don't want Reynild to be thanked for stopping the Planemeld when it was Kesstryl who did that. Do you see what this mess is doing to my characters? Do you see how it's ruining the game for me? How long, ZOS, do you think people like me will be able to stand this kind of ruin before we simply walk away and don't log in again?

@Kesstryl or anybody else -- is this how it works on PTS? Do NPCs give you accolades based on your achievements rather than your specific character's completed quest?

mystfit

I'm going to go ahead and post my beta feedback posting here. I have friends very distressed by these changes and I chose to stand with them!!! I suspect, however, since they are coaching these changes as 'perfornative' our feedback is not welcome as it's emotional, not factual/server load related.
***
The amazing thing about games like ESO is they create WORLDS and we make characters to live in them. Most people have some sort of agenda..she want to raid, they want to craft. Some people have characters in their heads they want to bring to life. ESO lets us do that.
There is a crowd of people want each character to be unique. They might craft a back story where an achievement of mass slaughter or even simple things like mining is....beneath them or against their moral code. They spend forever in character creation finding the right class, right look, then name them lovingly and dress them with equal care. Then they go make ANOTHER character with that same level of care but different.
Account wide achievements erase that uniqueness, that care and basically stamp them a clone.
And there are people who love this idea. Totally respect that, I've bought a skill line once or twice to avoid some drudgery on an alt I want to get up to speed.
Ya know how you make both sides happy? Opt-ins. Opt-outs. Play your way. That nets the company the most happiest of players then forcing a feature on them that truly affects them at the character level.
The real world sucks lately, don't make the pixel world suck for someone too.

deleted221106-002999

opaj wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I don't want my healer Luceya to have NPCs respond to her as if she's a master thief because Maila put that achievement on my account. I don't want to lose my second chance at talking with Count Ravenwatch at the end of the Markath story for his final thoughts and be welcomed into House Ravenwatch on a character playing through the story again because Reynild was the first to have spoken to him and gotten the achievement. I don't want NPCs in Western Skyrim to respond to Varla, who's never been there, as if she is the one who saved them and not Reynild. I don't want Reynild to be thanked for stopping the Planemeld when it was Kesstryl who did that. Do you see what this mess is doing to my characters? Do you see how it's ruining the game for me? How long, ZOS, do you think people like me will be able to stand this kind of ruin before we simply walk away and don't log in again?

@Kesstryl or anybody else -- is this how it works on PTS? Do NPCs give you accolades based on your achievements rather than your specific character's completed quest?

You create new character and they have achievements accumulated of all others (once you log into each) - npc reactions are linked to achievements so your new baby character will be reacted to by npcs as if they had those completions.

Characters are now Borg drones within the account collective.

edit:typo

VaranisArano

Giraffon wrote: »

Are they going to offer us a refund or something? Does this have the makings of a class action lawsuit?

No.

I mean, we don't even really own anything in game, so the idea of suing game devs for changing their game in ways we don't like is ridiculous.

Kesstryl

opaj wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I don't want my healer Luceya to have NPCs respond to her as if she's a master thief because Maila put that achievement on my account. I don't want to lose my second chance at talking with Count Ravenwatch at the end of the Markath story for his final thoughts and be welcomed into House Ravenwatch on a character playing through the story again because Reynild was the first to have spoken to him and gotten the achievement. I don't want NPCs in Western Skyrim to respond to Varla, who's never been there, as if she is the one who saved them and not Reynild. I don't want Reynild to be thanked for stopping the Planemeld when it was Kesstryl who did that. Do you see what this mess is doing to my characters? Do you see how it's ruining the game for me? How long, ZOS, do you think people like me will be able to stand this kind of ruin before we simply walk away and don't log in again?

@Kesstryl or anybody else -- is this how it works on PTS? Do NPCs give you accolades based on your achievements rather than your specific character's completed quest?

It is as I said, unfortunately, and I grieve it.

Gederic

Giraffon wrote: »

Are they going to offer us a refund or something? Does this have the makings of a class action lawsuit?

I'm sure a ZOS rep will gladly point you to the exact section of the terms of service that you agreed to that would prevent any such lawsuit from ever moving forward successfully over an in game change.

Silufadumar

I play table-top RPG's as well as games like Eso and Skyrim on my Xbox.

Across table or internet, there are two broad groups players usually fit into or lean more towards.

When asked to describe their current character, the first group may start with what the character looks like or regale the listener with their backstory, perhaps moving on to describe the characters motivations and favourite adventures so far ect.

The second group usually tells the listener how much damage their character can dish out or absorb, how taking a certain skill or using a particular piece/set of equipment has improved their dps or ability to take on multiple opponents ect.

While (in my experience) the two groups don't work well together in a table-top RPG, in an online game like Eso there is and has been room for both kinds of players and all kinds of others in-between.

It is in fact one of Eso's great strengths, that it can support such diverse players wanting very different things from the game and Zos has done a great job thus far in catering to this eclectic player base.

But I cannot say the same for this latest effort, the Account Wide Achievements coming with the next update, or more accurately, how its being implemented, is ripping the heart out of the game for one group to appease the wants of the other.

I know that may be an over simplification, but for many players that is how it seems. And I can't help but think there must have been a better way to do things.

Sheepzy

What a disgraceful change. Ripping out the heart of the game for so many people, it makes me sad. Please ZOS listen to your customers and postpone this change. Make the neccesary changes and make a character tracking system that is fit for purpose with AwA working as intended. This will make a lot of people happy. Don't be selfish and arrogant and ignore all the feedback you are getting. Please!

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Kesstryl

No mention in the Q&A of how this change effects NPC reactions and quests other than museum ones that are not repeatable on alts? That should have been addressed and is a huge, and I mean astronomical concern @ZOS_Kevin

Caroloces

I don't know . . . Call me old-fashioned, but I thought Achievements were something that one earned by learning a skill or completing a task. The scout who learns how to tie a particular knot earns an achievement, but not his or her whole troop. The professional ball player earns "Most Valuable Player" achievement for hitting 5 home runs during the world series, but the rest of his team doesn't get that honor!

So now, in the new world of ESO, where every character is now a pawn, your brand-newly created khajit nightblade might very well be a "Mages Guild Skill Master" without having discovered a single lore book. He will be noticed for having Killed a Grand Overlord without once setting foot in Cyrodiil. Ahhh . . . it's so satisfying to be a "Legendary Woodworker" before I've even crafted a simple maple staff or bow. And, of course, it's immensely satisfying to be the "Savior of Morrowind" when I've barely had a glimpse of Vivec City.

Folks, the absurdity of this change beggars belief. It makes Achievements utterly meaningless. Unless, like a child, you don a cape and pajama bottoms and truly and utterly believe you are Superman! Then, you might pretend that these achievements carry some weight.

For me, I mourn the loss that this change portends for the game.

Katheriah

At least you finally admitted this is for database reasons, instead of just marketing it as god's gift to the community. This change is legit horrible.

I am one of the people that wanted account-wide achievements, but what I actually wanted is that BESIDES character achievements, they would ALSO be tracked on account level. All I wanted is to play multiple characters, I don't want to play my main 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that I want my alts to be spoken to as if they saved the world. It doesn't mean that when my character finishes something for the first time I don't want to see the achievement icon pop up in my screen.

I hate this change.

opaj

I'm looking forward to only having to earn each achievement once. I don't mind meta progress like achievements and titles being shared across my account, and it's easy enough to only use character-appropriate titles.

I am alarmed about these reports that NPCs will now call out to character A about story events that character B took part in. This has the potential to negatively impact the narrative consistency of the world. As someone who plays primarily for lore and story, this may be a noticeable detriment to the enjoyment I get out of the game.

ectoplasmicninja

All right, so given that it's a storage and performance based change, it can't be opt-in. Fair. But how do alts work if we can't track our progress through quests and the game? It seems like we'll have to abandon any sense of chronologic achievement, because how do I know if I've done this delve yet if it turns white when I walk up because I have an Explorer character? Will Verandis never be on the balcony in Blackreach again to bequeath me with his name? That scene can only play out once ever?

mystfit

Can someone show what the map looks like for an alt character of a main who has fully finished a zone. I'm curious what WB's, locations, skyshards, etc look like in those cases. I have dsl, so downloading pts would take 3 days )))

zsitvaij

mystfit wrote: »

Can someone show what the map looks like for an alt character of a main who has fully finished a zone. I'm curious what WB's, locations, skyshards, etc look like in those cases. I have dsl, so downloading pts would take 3 days )))

Does it even matter? You're getting it March 14th whether you like it or not.