What is a good way to LEARN to tank?

Bitter_Apple21

Folks

Separate question - clearing out inventory - trying to figure out IF the undaunted bastion set is worth keeping. I see the value to the tank alone if the healer is not keeping things up, but not sure if it might or might not be worth while in overland (non dungeon) scenarios.

Comments/suggestions?

Snow_White

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

I saw one from my other CP160 toons that got picked up (cannot remember the name now) that extends out something like a 10k+ shield to the group whenever I take any damage. That seemed a not bad set - at least at this level of my understanding.

The way ESO is currently, defensive sets are basically a waste. You’ll typically focus on buff sets (Yolnahkriin, Saxhleel, Elemental Catalyst, Powerful Assault, Worm, Crimson Oath/Alkosh, War Machine).

Bitter_Apple21

Folks

The other gear set is "Brands of the Imperium" from WGT.

Bitter_Apple21

@Snow_White

Follow-up. (managing inventory),

I understand the value of Monster sets due to their offerings of things that "buff" the group, but - and I am using the word "Overland" to mean other quests, etc not part of a group - does that make sense then that for some scenarios "overland' I would not be using a Monster set i.e. using a completely different set to boost Weapon Critical or something if I am running like a weak Stam DPS or something (yes just the two pieces)?

Trying to rationalize what gear that I have been collecting for a tank, I just do not need. Obviously got the sticker book, but easier to keep a couple of pieces for non Dungeon use.

Do I have this correct?

Fennwitty

When you're solo, your tank is effectively a bad stam or magicka dps with too many hit points. You can use no monster set at all, or an offensive one instead.

Lots of people are using the new Armory system and having one slot be for tanking, the other slot for soloing or damage.

Some people like Brands of Imperium, I find it unpredictable and so very limited usefulness. It will just happen when it happens since you're constantly taking damage, and there's no telling if the damage shield will be active when it's really needed.

Undaunted Bastion is similarly more complicated than it's worth.

If you want damage shields, you have a ton of options usable completely on demand exactly when you want them. DK has Igneous Shield, Hardened Armor, Magma Shell, even Take Flight as class abilities. You can further stack damage shields with 1-h skills, staff skills, Undaunted skills, Alliance skill Barrier. Even Psijic and CP can give damage shields.

I'd rather combine two damage shields on demand (shields stack) than have to deal with an unpredictable proc set.

Bitter_Apple21

@Snow_White

Took a quick look at the sets you mentioned, and most, for me, I cannot get cause they are part of Trials, and currently, those are outside my access.

However, the Crimson Oath caught my eye.

Question - does the target debuff on that set stack with the crusher enchantment from the frost staff (if I have that right)? Does the group get the benefit of TWO armor debuffs?

Snow_White

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Snow_White

Took a quick look at the sets you mentioned, and most, for me, I cannot get cause they are part of Trials, and currently, those are outside my access.

However, the Crimson Oath caught my eye.

Question - does the target debuff on that set stack with the crusher enchantment from the frost staff (if I have that right)? Does the group get the benefit of TWO armor debuffs?

With all the changes to DPS and damage mitigation over the last few updates normal trials have become pretty trivial. Once you’re comfortable tanking a normal DLC dungeon you can do pretty much any normal trial if you’re up for it. Look for a guild that runs training trials as it’s a perfect starting point.

Crimson Oath stacks.

The idea is that in a magica group you can’t run around piercing everything, and crusher is single target, so when pulling trash a set like Crimson Oath or Alkosh will AOE debuff the pack so it takes more damage.

In a Stamina group (which have less penetration than magica), the extra pen from Crimson Oath will also help on the boss fights.

The catch is that you ideally want crimson oath on your weapons/jewels, since it’ll typically be paired with a set like Yolnahkriin on the body.

Bitter_Apple21

@Snow_White

Thanks. I was so focused on the armor debuff part, I did not notice the AOE element of it. Just reread it.

Okay, gotta start running Dread Cellar.

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw @Fennwitty and others

Finally got the crusher enchant on the staff and one of the past comments hit home.

The countdown for the crusher is only a 5 sec countdown, but it does repeat itself when it hits zero. The issue becomes, I do not know how many "repeats" have expired on the crusher, so casting taunt and then crusher back to back allows me to use the timer on the taunt to know when the crusher/wall needs to be recast.

Light is slowly dawning.

Thanks.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw @Fennwitty and others

Finally got the crusher enchant on the staff and one of the past comments hit home.

The countdown for the crusher is only a 5 sec countdown, but it does repeat itself when it hits zero. The issue becomes, I do not know how many "repeats" have expired on the crusher, so casting taunt and then crusher back to back allows me to use the timer on the taunt to know when the crusher/wall needs to be recast.

Light is slowly dawning.

Thanks.

I highly recommended some sort of option for tracking the duration of your skills. They added in game functionality a little while back, but I much prefer the addon, Action Duration Reminder.

DaveMoeDee

Have a dungeon guide open on a second screen. Read the mechanics before each boss. Just knowing what to do is big. Running normals won't help much with that.

When it is my first time in a dungeon, I'm not ashamed to ask questions. At this point, I know I can manage tank mechanics, but I might not be familiar with the dungeon's mechanics.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

The countdown for the crusher is only a 5 sec countdown, but it does repeat itself when it hits zero. The issue becomes, I do not know how many "repeats" have expired on the crusher, so casting taunt and then crusher back to back allows me to use the timer on the taunt to know when the crusher/wall needs to be recast.

Light is slowly dawning.

Thanks.

LOL glad you're getting the hang of it, but I don't even pay that close attention to whether Crusher's currently active.

Just keep the blockade up on the boss and it'll take care of itself. Not much you can do otherwise especially with other adds running around.

Paramedicus

:S why you guys give info without proper context?
Torugs and Worm are sets for trials which you gonna wear if your trial leader says so. Btw is anyone still using Torugs nowadays??

Anyway, OP if you have problem with sustain get poison enchant on 1h weapon and decisive trait too (higher ulti uptime means more resources for you as DK). You can also farm Leeching plate and/or Crimson Twilight. You may use one of those in fights you are struggling to survive. The point of using self healing sets is to save resources you would otherwise use on healing abilities. Leeching plate gives also stamina back from poison (passive), but if your target move it will miss the proc (it is static). Crimson Twilight is more reliable but doesnt poison enemy. Both work good with multiple enemies only. Just don't use them all the time because they may make you lazy (you cant rely on them forever). Brands of Imperium is less selfish but there arent many fights you will stack with your team to benefit from proc (low range of shield proc).

Go to thetankclub website to check out other good tank sets to aid your team, but keep in mind that they often promote sets for organized teams (IE that are able to stack together, are stam/mag only etc) or that work better in trials. So don't focus on sets that work only in close ranges, because people in pugs will miss your buffs more often than not. Also skip ones that require lot of blocking (you dont do lotta blocking in 4-man content). Good examples for sets you could use are Claw of Yolnahkriin (you get it from trial tho), War Machine (again from trial..), Arkasis’s Genius (it also helps you because more ulti = more resources back from passive), Crimson Oath (tho it is more useful on trash pulls, and you will often waste it on boss, if you are not in stam group).

TL;DL Different sets work best in trials, dungeons, organized groups and pugs.

Fennwitty

Paramedicus wrote: »

:S why you guys give info without proper context?
Torugs and Worm are sets for trials which you gonna wear if your trial leader says so. Btw is anyone still using Torugs nowadays??

Bitter stipulated no DLC or trials, so that's about what's left which will retain long-term use

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw caught on early that I tend to think thru things. The advice and help you folks are providing is much appreciated and when someone goes thru specifics (like sets, etc), part of what I do is dig in and discover, this set or that set can only drop from trials or other spot I cannot get to yet. But as @Snow_White mentioned Crimson Oath I could actually try to get. I do understand that depending on the PUG group it might be a waste of time. The learning i.e. that some routine self buffing ability might help the group with an AOE based debuff, adds to the game for me.

So, often, what I get from the comments made is sometimes not just the set but what the benefit the set gives, and that is sometimes more insightful. For instance, I was noticing that while trying to chain the mobs together, I was occasionally hitting someone that was already nearby, and that wasted effort was causing my mag resource to drop. That discovery made me realize that I needed to
1) sometimes just step left or right to get a better line of sight and
2) maybe - @Oreyn_Bearclaw pointed out - drink something that will keep my Mag Regen buffed - that caused me to pay particular attention to the worm set (which I know I can access - now that I crossed the level that accesses DLC dungeons).

I believe that I get the point that since everyone here is way ahead of me on the "role" of tanking and how the performance of a tank is only truly tested in vet dungeons or trials, I still appreciate making those knowledge connection.

I just ran a normal dungeon and it turned out that all the other PUG players were sub 50 - wow, now things in the dungeon would be balanced. I remember at one point, I actually got "irked" when some DPS was launching long range attacks on the boss before I was even ready to taunt - and I was actually infront of the DPS.

That little "irk" brought most of the points people have been making that you cannot really test your performance as a tank until there is some level of challenge or organization (because of the challenge). The fact that it "irked" me sort of made me feel that I was maybe getting the point of what I should be doing as a tank.

I think the habit that I need to try and restrain (while practicing tank techniquess) is the "I gotta nail this boss" rather than "How am I helping the DPSs nail this boss". Tend to burn thru Stam fairly quickly that way.

Bitter_Apple21

@Paramedicus

Your point on "Organized" teams sort of hits my next challenge. So far, and yes, I have not tried Vet dungeons yet, but it is dawning on me that without being part of a guild, becoming part of an organized team does not seem to be realistic.

I guess that I am hoping that the higher levels of players that I might meet on PUG Vet dungeons, there might be that "developed" expectation of the other players, that could be close to a "professional" group i.e. they know their roles.

I think it was @Snow_White that mentioned if I can feel comfortable tanking normal dungeons (presumably DLC ones, let alone Vet dungeons), I should be okay on Trials. The hard part of that statement is "getting comfortable being a tank with groups that do not perform as a group" cause they are not organized - it is a bit circular. However, I keep practicing and everyone's comments add to the pool of knowledge that I hope will get me there. (he other option I considered was looking into Craglorn stuff - it seemed to be the closed to a PUG trial event)

I actually saw a website that seemed to be a database of ESO guilds. Was testing it to see what information shows up in an attempt to see if any one group lists "training" as a role for the guild. But just starting to look.

Open to guild suggestions from anyone.

Paramedicus

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

I guess that I am hoping that the higher levels of players that I might meet on PUG Vet dungeons, there might be that "developed" expectation of the other players, that could be close to a "professional" group i.e. they know their roles.

You can meet top players in PUGs too but PUG still gonna be PUG and mostl likely team wont be organized. To be organized team either need voice comms or knowledge of play style of others (+what gear and skills is everyone using). There are sets that work only in organized teams, because PUGs lack cooridination.

One example of set for organized teams would be Vestment of Olorime that is used by some tanks in 4-man content. It gives nice dmg buff, but players need to get inside of small circle to grab it. I can assure you that most good PUGs (even guild-pugs) gonna miss it often (and your averange pug player will just ignore it entirely).

Other would be Powerful Assault (which seems to be meta for 4-man content lately) and has similar problem: its range. People need to be 10m from you while you use Assault ability to get dmg buff. So either everyone stays always near you to get proc (which isnt very possible in some fights) or you gotta tell them somehow to get close (and ofc they need to know that you are actually wearing it).

So my point is: if you PUG you gotta think about gear you are using bit more and understand why it will/or will not work.



About mag recovery problem, am I assuming that you have mag recovery glyphs on jewelry and atronach boon? Get Balance from Magic guild for sure. When you hit 50lvl look for Sustained by Suffering in red constellation. You can also use Orzorga's Red Frothgar drink if you feel comfortable with your mag/stam pool unbuffed (otherwise stick to Bewitched Sugar Skulls). And.. just learn to pull mobs by positioning them. If you attack/taunt them, they gonna follow you and you can stack them in some corridor or corner (usually no need to chain everything that way).

You could stick with that Worm for some time too I guess. That 3x mag recovery must feel good for sure.

Bitter_Apple21

I just took a look at some of the bosses in that trial Cloudrest.

If I am reading the web site correctly, in the hard mode, their health is 37M

No wonder it is for 12 people.

Ouch....

But I see your point, there is no value to a group if any member has on a piece of gear that buffs the group - with limitation i.e. range - if the rest of the group is not aware of that limitation. And in a PUG dungeon, unless someone spells it out before anyone leaves the start AND everyone follows that plan i.e. organized, that piece of gear is not being used optimally.

Curious, is there some addon or app that lays out that range limitation to the other members? One of my other characters is a healer and I get that circular zone before I cast the spell, but in one of those buff cases, can the other members see the circle around the tank?

Paramedicus

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

But I see your point, there is no value to a group if any member has on a piece of gear that buffs the group - with limitation i.e. range - if the rest of the group is not aware of that limitation. And in a PUG dungeon, unless someone spells it out before anyone leaves the start AND everyone follows that plan i.e. organized, that piece of gear is not being used optimally.

Yes, and another problem is that often this type of gear is considered META (with good reason ofc) but that doesn't mean it will be good in your case (PUG dungeon tank). I'm just trying to warn you against uncritically accepting advice you find on the websites or forums.

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

Curious, is there some addon or app that lays out that range limitation to the other members? One of my other characters is a healer and I get that circular zone before I cast the spell, but in one of those buff cases, can the other members see the circle around the tank?

There is none and I don't think that there gonna be any in future. Fortunately there are some sets that are more PUG friendly, like Lord's Warden and Encratis monster sets (big colorful circle around you on proc) and sets that have max range of proc, like Arkasis, Worm or Ebon.

b101uk

Snow_White wrote: »

The way ESO is currently, defensive sets are basically a waste. You’ll typically focus on buff sets (Yolnahkriin, Saxhleel, Elemental Catalyst, Powerful Assault, Worm, Crimson Oath/Alkosh, War Machine).

based on pugs and doing daily dungeons, I couldn't disagree more, most of the time in such cases the healer in the group will be a complete and utter waste of time, and the tank will need to be 100% self-sufficient, so what little the healer dose do can be concentrated on the DD's.

you then have the greater amounts of other team members that wipe, which can because of the diversity of the team with no, low and high CP mix, and even high CP groups DD and healer can wipe when they don't respect some boss, and if you are THAT tank who relays on the rest of the team to buff you then you are probably not going to be able to res any of them if you have sets on that buff others rather than yourself by getting you close to the 33k resistance cap and that help you survive as a tank, so you can take the damage while resing people, or can take the damage from miss-steps while learning the mechanics of a dungeon.

Paramedicus

+1 to post above. Good tank is one who can stay alive. Tho I wouldn't try to get to resit cap at any cost. Some classes/races can get it easier than others.

As it was mentioned in this topic already, it is better if you have few sets with you. Damage buffing sets won't help if your pug is getting wrecked on first MF boss. But set like Leeching Plate may allow you to tank boss and all adds without worrying if healer is alive (or whole team wiped tbh).

Bitter_Apple21

Folks

Okay, up to now, I have been targeting sets to farm or craft based on what I pick up (and then see the features of) or various website recommendations. That is why as soon as the tank crosses 50, I have a complete set of Ebon in purple based on my other toons collecting it. I picked Ebon cause way back when even before I created the tank, it seemed to be a "popular" recommendation.

As mentioned, another light that is dawning is that without the benefit of an "organized" group (thanks @Paramedicus), what might be a very good set - for a organised group - might be useless in a PUG dungeon. That leaves me with a bit of an issue on what to seek out. For instance, I had planned on the Ebon, the WP (cause I like all that health and armor) and Lord Warden. Some of the things I have picked up from people here @Fennwitty @Oreyn_Bearclaw @Snow_White and others, are causing me to think that for PUGs, to do things that simply (to a point that was made by @Oreyn_Bearclaw I think)

1) help me to not die and
2) debuff the target rather than buff the group (therefore likely not need group organization).

For instance, searching the Tank club site, one build had the use of the Tremorscale monster set. I presume it is because of the armor debuff on the boss. That lead me to think that perhaps a set that drives this armor debuff i.e. Tremorscale + Crimson Oath + crusher enchant, would be perhaps the best that I could do in PUGS for helping the DPS "nail the boss".

Not in the specifics of the choices I mentioned above as there might be other mixes, but is the basic point of gear for unorganized (PUG) groups vs organized groups?

Paramedicus

well.. you dont need to overthink this today. Start with sets that make you comfortable and when you get more experience add ones that buff your team dmg. Just keep in mind that this can be your goal in future (going more offensive). ATM you should focus on learning how to tank and not getting latest meta sets.


and about this combo: Tremorscale + Crimson Oath + crusher enchant, those two sets are fine, but you need to rememeber that they gonna buff damage of stamina DDs on bosses mainly. Tremorscale lowers only Physical Resistance, while Crimson Oath provides so much penetration that you migh overpen for magicka DDs (talking about boss fights still). Sorry for not making it easier xD

Bitter_Apple21

Bitter_Apple21

@Paramedicus

But on a more sane note, so the physical resistance debuff of Tremorscale is NOT the same as the Armor debuff of Crimson and Crusher. Do I have that right?

I thought that physical resistance and Armor were the same but maybe Armor means both Physical resistance as well as Spell Resistance. If so, now I understand that Tremorscale would not help the spell casters (so to speak). If not, gonna start playing checkers.

Paramedicus

Yes, you got it right now. Armor means both and Tremorscale will be useful just for stamina DDs.

Bitter_Apple21

Folks

Rereading some of this and I decided to try and understand this 33k cap subject that has come up once or twice. Ended up getting into Damage mitigation.

Do I have this correct that the "hurt" that I receive is a combination of the actual benefits of

- blocking - which can include the shield, and the various buffs i.e. Iron Skin and Sword and Board, etc.
- armor resistance - things like the "Armor" of Warrior Poet and Resolve Passive of Heavy armor.

(and obviously if I fail to block an incoming, the "hurt" is only reduced by the armor resistance)

I ask, as one site commented that with the just the "blocking" portion you can hit the 60+% mitigation threshold and I (where I am asking) then added that the Resistance cap of 33k further reducing things by another 50%. RIght now, I am at around 27k with blue stuff - so I am guessing that contributes say 25%-30% further reduction.

Does that mean that you can get to the point of having upwards of 100% damage mitigation when combining these two separate features?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I would start with a combo of something you collected, like ebon, and something easy to craft, perhaps torugs pact for more group pen, or go a little more selfish if you need to. Having one crafter set makes it much easier to build around the pieces of the set you farmed.

You wont have it all right now and that is okay. Tank metas change a fair amount, and as others have said, Tanks at end game tend to carry a LOT of gear, not only depending on the fight, but depending on what the rest of the group has. You well frankly never have it all, enjoy the journey not the finish line.

In four man early on, error on the side of being a touch selfish. Torugs/*Ebon, while perhaps a touch dated, will work just fine for the vast majority of the groups. If you get a second or third combo that is perhaps a little less selfish and more group oriented, swap to it when you feel comfortable. If your GF is a bunch of low level people that take 10 minutes on the first boss, you probably want to be a bit selfish. If your group nukes the first boss in 30 seconds, maybe you swap to be a little more buff oriented.

*My only pushback on Ebon is that our health is so high right now that I think it tends to be a bit of a waste. It is still nice because your DPS can run parse food without worrying about it, but there are probably better options at this point. Full disclosure, I am pretty sure my tank (which I havent touched in about 2 years), is wearing Ebon/Torugs.

Paramedicus

emm, not quite. If you fail to block you just lose the part of mitigation that blocking provides (all your defensive buffs and active damage shields still work).

Damage mitigation formula is bit longer (there are more sources of mitigation) and reaching 100% isnt possible (there are hard caps that prevent it, like 90% on blocking or 50% on armor resistance). Oh, and you cant just add mitigation from different sources to figure out how much damage is going to be reduced (they are multiplied).

So in your case it gonna be (excluding other sources of mitigation to make the example clearer):

Damage Taken = Base Damage * (1 - (Armor Resistance/660) / 100) * (1 - Blocking / 100)

Damage Taken = Base Damage * (1 - 0.409) * (1 - 0.5)

Damage Taken = Base Damage * 0.591 * 0.5

Damage Taken = Base Damage * 0.29


Reference: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021/p1

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

For the start of this next phase (in 2 lvls for Vet), that actually is my plan. I was going to run Ebon and Warrior Poet (the health and armor stuff makes "tanking" comfortable) and either carry or have ready Torug's (easy to craft). It had registered only a little, but I do remember a player in Scalecaller (I think) actually telling in our group they were going to "become" a DPS or something to help with the final boss. Obviously, they were carrying gear that was not necessarily for the role that they had originally joined for. I had not really considered the idea that I might be changing my gear based on the situation but I guess that makes sense. Particularly if the group is an organized one that would actually take advantage of its features.

Or (in my case) one that needs a little more DPS or healing help.

One of your original posts listed 6 things regarding a tank (in three groups) and that has sort of been driving my idea of the development of this toon. The nuances I have been picking up since then are - to me - along the lines of more critically looking at what set I want to collect or farm based on the nature of the group - either organized or PUG or Trials.

Some of the selfish things I have been picking up - like Mag regen and Worms - sort of throw a curve into things (on the selfish side) that I had not considered as I am figuring out how to manage the resources.

And to that point of "early tank gear sets" I've recently been looking at Monster sets. Had the head pieces of Chudan, L Warden and Engine Guardian so I spent some keys for the shoulder pieces of those.

@Paramedicus

Okay, so the point that I missed is that the percentages do not "add". It is not 50% of shield plus 10% on one passive plus 20% on another passive plus 30% on the Armor resistance

The two different types are multiplied - which affects the math.

The link helps.

Thanks.