What is a good way to LEARN to tank?

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty @Oreyn_Bearclaw

Folks, ran one recently, where it felt as if I was the only one doing damage to one of the bosses, or his health bar was not dropping as fast as I would of thought. I've heard about these aftermarket "add on" things, and I think you've both mentioned some combat metrics thing before. Is it something I buy or download or what. How does it get added to the game? Is it on my account or on a single pc or a single character. Is it always on screen or fo I call it up like the inventory menu.

Curious to see next time I get this sense of a dungeon run, what's going on.

Fennwitty

Addons are written using the API code ZoS intentionally allows players on PC to have access to. They're written by other players and they're free. When ZoS doesn't want addons to do a certain thing, they remove it from the API. They live on your PC and load when starting the game.

Easiest way to manage is to install Minion app as the video below, and start slow with downloading. Minion has a backup system, take backups periodically so you can roll back your addons in case one breaks something and you're not sure which it is.

Avoid addons that do the exact same thing at the same time. Multiple addons can change your health bar for instance, but you don't want them fighting with each other -- sometimes one addon will win, sometimes both will lose and you'll have to turn one off.

https://youtu.be/q-7SSN3xoT0?t=1770

I'd start with CombatMetrics and Untaunted. Many addons also have required file libraries which support them, and you download those separately still using Minion.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thx. Will get it loaded.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Separate question. Just ran spindle 2, 28k resistance, 52k health ( yeah don't know how), and got one shorted. Running again, but anything unique in middle boss?

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty
Follow on question. How does physical resistance, a physical shield and magic shield (igneous) tally up? I obviously did something wrong, but how did that damage get thru all this protection.

When I ran it again, I focused on shield arm and igneous, and saw some red ground based flame come out, health did dip but never below like 30k.

BejaProphet

I’m this post shield refers to magical shielding, block refers to actively blocking with the metal disk strapped to your arm.

Life is first taken from your shield, but shielding benefits from all sources of mitigation other than blocking. Mitigation sources are multiplicative and not additive. (They apply one at a time.)

So let’s say you have a 10k shield, 50% reduction from max resistances and then in CP you have 10% from preparation. Let’s say a creature swings at you for a 100k heavy attack while you are not actively blocking.

It would play out as follows.

100,000 x 0.5 from resistances= 50,000

50,000 x 0.9 from CP = 45,000

That 45k hit would first destroy your 10k shield then hit you for the remaining 35k.


Now, if you would have blocked it would have applied after the shield, blocking doesn’t protect your shielding the way other mitigation does.

So the 45k would first destroy your 10k shield, then you would block the 35k.

Block is 50% damage reduction unless it is modified by something.

So…

35,000 x 0.5 = 17,500 damage.

Blocking is the most powerful source of mitigation you have and there are heavy attacks in the game that are meant to one-shot you if you don’t block them.

Bitter_Apple21

@BejaProphet

Thx. That would explain it. I ran thru a second time, this time focused a bit more on shield arm, and had no issue.

Thanks again.

Bitter_Apple21

Loaded up combat metrics, and have this small black display just left of center. When I disable one lib, it goes but combat metrics us disabled.

Do I need this on the screen all the time for combat metrics to work?

Snow_White

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

Loaded up combat metrics, and have this small black display just left of center. When I disable one lib, it goes but combat metrics us disabled.

Do I need this on the screen all the time for combat metrics to work?

No. Look under settings, addons, combat metrics. I think it’s called live update or something and you can disable it. You can also click on it and drag it to a less irritating position (may need to unlock it in settings).

If you’re going to take tanking seriously, I recommend getting Raid Notifier, Hodor’s Reflexes and Codes Combat Alerts as they’re pretty standard for any raiding group, and Untaunted will make managing taunt much easier.

I also recommend OdySupportIcons as it’ll flag healers and other tanks so you can see who they are.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Snow_White wrote: »

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

Loaded up combat metrics, and have this small black display just left of center. When I disable one lib, it goes but combat metrics us disabled.

Do I need this on the screen all the time for combat metrics to work?

No. Look under settings, addons, combat metrics. I think it’s called live update or something and you can disable it. You can also click on it and drag it to a less irritating position (may need to unlock it in settings).

If you’re going to take tanking seriously, I recommend getting Raid Notifier, Hodor’s Reflexes and Codes Combat Alerts as they’re pretty standard for any raiding group, and Untaunted will make managing taunt much easier.

I also recommend OdySupportIcons as it’ll flag healers and other tanks so you can see who they are.

Yeah. The combat metrics display can be useful mid fight to just gauge your group. Reality is that you are going to play fights differently if your group DPS is 100k vs 20k, and it's nice to know your group heals and damage without having to toggle the post fight recap. I move mine to the bottom of my screen so its not in the way.

Also, 100% agree on those three addons. They will go a long way in helping you learn mechanics and react accordingly. They are mandatory in most organized raid groups on PC. Raid Notifier is handy for certain mechanics and what to do with them. Hodors is nice if for no other reason to be able to see and share DPS with your group, but it is also very useful for coordinating ultimates. As a tank, you will be expected to do things like a warhorn rotation if you get into trials. Codes Combat Alerts is similar in function to Raid Notifier, but you def want both. Its very nice for some specific mechanics, but also for letting you know when you need to block and roll dodge.

In 4 man content, definitely get Codes at the minimum. If you eventually start doing any type of trials, be sure to get all three if you dont do it now. (Get all 3 now).

Bitter_Apple21

Folks

Thanks. I will try to "move" the small screen elsewhere on the display so that I can make use of this.

robpr

If you want nice training for tanking, Craglorn normal trials are good place to start, preferably with your own team so you can take your time.

-Aetherial Archive: teaches dealing with multiple targets and keeping bosses on correct places. Bosses themselves do negligible damage normally so there is no penalty if you lose the leash on them outside their highly telegraphed attacks. Last boss doesnt even have to be taunted.

-Hel Ra citadel: teaches holding bosses on correct angle (they have cleave attacks damaging everything behind you), interrupting mages and surviving heavy pressure (short channeled attacks, let go block = death)

-Sanctum: teaches dealing with enemies that don't behave as any other enemies (trolls barely can be controlled, but its possible) and attacks that can temporarily disable tanks (popcorn, ozara bolt)

Bitter_Apple21

@robpr

Thanks. Had not thought of Craglorn. I've gotten the message from a few @Oreyn_Bearclaw and @Fennwitty in particular that things start getting interesting in vet DLC stuff, but I am not yet able to access vet dungeons. Often times in normal PUG dungeons, I do not even have the time to pile up the mob before some DPSs are racing ahead and jumping into things. A bit hard to practice techniques that way.

And since I am not part of any guild or group, I cannot yet do trials, but I think I read that you can actually do a sort of PUG for the Craglorn stuff. I think - on my other toons - I have noted some zone chat where people are looking for additional players.

When I can access Craglorn on this toon, I might try that.

Thanks again.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@robpr

Thanks. Had not thought of Craglorn. I've gotten the message from a few @Oreyn_Bearclaw and @Fennwitty in particular that things start getting interesting in vet DLC stuff, but I am not yet able to access vet dungeons. Often times in normal PUG dungeons, I do not even have the time to pile up the mob before some DPSs are racing ahead and jumping into things. A bit hard to practice techniques that way.

And since I am not part of any guild or group, I cannot yet do trials, but I think I read that you can actually do a sort of PUG for the Craglorn stuff. I think - on my other toons - I have noted some zone chat where people are looking for additional players.

When I can access Craglorn on this toon, I might try that.

Thanks again.

I think you can access Craglorn at the Capital City of your alliance when you arrive, for me that’s Grahtwood. Try tanking base game vet dungeons before trials though, since I started this thread, I’ve been able to tank vet base games and a few vet dlc’s, still practising though and won’t trial till there’s a friend lol

Bitter_Apple21

@Bobby_V_Rockit

Thanks. Base vet Dungeons are what I will likely be doing first. If nothing else, I have never even tried the Craglorn stuff with my other toons, so I have zero knowledge of any of them, whereas my other toons have been thru base vet dungeons so there is some knowledge of what the difficult stages are.

Will admit that I am picking up more info on the dungeons with the tank than my other DPS toons or Healer. I think it is because, with the health and armor, there is slightly less risk of getting into trouble. So I can watch things that as a DPS I was just "wam, bang, etc" to nail things.

The interesting part of that however, is the more and more I run them, even at this low level, I am rapidly getting to the conclusion that it is the mechanics that will be the part to learn thoroughly at these next levels. I know I am still a rookie and I have to work on my tank "rotation" in fights, but I feel that I am getting to understand the basic "techniques" i.e. chaining, taloning (even more than once or twice just to cause damage), in cases with more than one boss or mini boss, even taunting both to have them focus on me, etc.

However, I have been wiped 3 times in one battle with Crypt of Hearts, where the second to last boss (I think) picks up the group and then lowers us down. I have not yet figured out how to get out of the double red circle (I think it is simply I have not worked the finger movements yet for a dodge roll backwards or something), and I inevitable get wiped.

Paramedicus

well, if we are talkiing about addons here are mandatory (+optional) ones IMO:

• Code's Combat Alerts (mentioned already)
• Untaunted (mentioned already)
• Bandits User Interferance + Gear Manager - for buff tracking, dungeon and raid mech notifier, dangerous HA sound cue, group frames (i.e. allows to change order and color by class), boss frame [tips for execture, important HP related mechs, crosshair frames (additional info like dodge fatigue, crusher, taunt timer), combat metrics [combat metrics may be bad for FPS, you dont need to have them turned on all the time), ultimate share etc = it has most important stuff in one modular addon [you can disable modules you dont need or could conflict with other addons you may prefer]
• (optional) Srendarr - if you don't like how Bandis show info about buffs/debuffs (for me it is easier to manage different type of buffs on different frames/places on screen)
• (optional) Hodor Reflexes - if you start doing trails and just for ultimate sharing (disable this feature in Bandits then), because most trial runners are used to Hodor.
• (optional) Auto Recharge (and repair) - because you dont want to go into fight with your pants down
• (very optional) FCO Ultimate Reminder (just for sound cue when ulti is ready)
• (very optional) Potion Taken Sound Fix - can also give sound cue when potion cooldown is over
• (very very optional) SwitchBar II - because im blind and I like big ass red or blue icon to show me on which bar I am.

Fennwitty

With mechanics you can

1. Wipe over and over until you figure it out
2. Ask someone how it works (or they simply tell you)
3. Look it up yourself

How you handle it is up to you.

You probably mean Crypt of Hearts 2 boss Mezeluth.

Xynode has some very thorough dungeon and trial guides. Alcast also has guides, but I find they tend to leave out some information. With older content, the guides may be slightly out of date but most of them should still work.

https://xynodegaming.com/cryptofhearts2/

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Had not went to that link before. Did so and got a chuckle - they actually have a name for it "the wipe".

The part I have to try is the spin and roll so that I do not back into one of the circles. And aim where I am rolling.

Thanks.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Okay, first 4 times wiped 3. After reading the article and "turning" and rolling to targeted spot, went thru 3 times in a row clean.

Mechanics......

b101uk

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty

Separate question. Just ran spindle 2, 28k resistance, 52k health ( yeah don't know how), and got one shorted. Running again, but anything unique in middle boss?

if its the boss that spawns the red shaded ethereal spiders and bosses from spindle 1, mid way along in spindle 2, then it has a ring AoE attack, if it casts the red ring AoE on you, then you have to stay in the ring AoE without touching the red edges as it moves around, if you touch the ring AoE edges, it will 1-shot you.

likewise if the red ring AoE is cast on another member of the team, then as that team member is forced to move around by the ring AoE moving randomly, the other team members must avoid the red ring AoE too, as it can also kill other team members if the outer edge intersects with them.

i.e. red ring AoE cast on you, stay in the centre of it and avoid touching the inner edge of the red ring as it moves around.
red ring AoE cast on another, avoid the outer edge of the red ring intersecting with you as it moves around.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Been running CH2 to farm ebon, and this time I was the only one to survive 2 red circles, finished the boss and got asked the trick. Told about turning in mid air and aiming where you roll dodge, to avoid a second red circle. Thanks for the pointer to Xynode.

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw @Fennwitty and others

Okay, toon is level 47 and I have started focusing on gear. For now (cannot do trials, etc) planning on Ebon and Warrior Poet. WP avail thru recent events and my other toons have been collecting Ebon gear over the past several months.

Have not picked monster set yet, but there is one that restores Magicka and Stamina (cannot remember name) or Lord Warden (which I have).

My question is the weapon. Spent several hours trying to get a CP160 WP sword (already have the shield), until I decided to look and see if I could buy a 1H weapon - which I could (as well as the Ice staff). It was an Axe. I started thinking that a sword would be better, until I started doing some digging.

What I am reading is that for a tank going 1H plus shield, for the tanking purpose, it does NOT matter which one handed weapon you are using, either dagger, sword, axe or mace.

True?

Fennwitty

The 1-h weapon type you pair with a shield is completely irrelevant in the current version of the game.

Dagger = 1-h Mace = 1-h Axe = 1-h Sword with a shield.

If you want it to look like a sword, you can use your Outfit slot to reskin it.


Warrior Poet's overkill, and when you're grouped with a Warden you'll get Minor Toughness anyway. Starting out you can use the Ebon and combine with a crafted set like Torug's Pact.

EDIT: Being a tank or healer in this game is a bit of a gear collector's dream/nightmare.

You will ultimately want to have a variety of gear options available whether in your bank, or carried on your person. Keep collecting stuff with your other characters and adding them to your stickerbook.

Some early base game helms you may want to have available are Engine Guardian, Sentinel of Rkugamz, maybe Bloodspawn and Tremorscale. Lord Warden is good if you and the party is taking a crazy amount of damage, though that doesn't happen too frequently outside vet DLC or trials.

Don't freak out by all the guides listed online -- most players only have a few of the sets on-hand at any given time, and the variety is mainly valuable in 12-person trials.

Much of the currently 'in demand' gear comes from DLC dungeons and from trials, you can continue to work up your confidence to doing those.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. Makes me laugh at all the time I was running the WB quests on VV this weekend to just get a weapon, and I had picked up a CP160 dagger a long time ago.

On gear, I was toying with the idea of Torug's pact cause what you folks were saying about the crusher enchantment (I think). On that, I started using it with the frost staff, and I see the icon. To the point from before, it does count down from 5 to zero, but then it starts up again. I have also been keeping Undaunted Bastion as well.

I remember reading from someone - I think it was on this post thread - the primary role of a Tank was keeping alive, and I will fundamentally acknowledge that my "newness" to this role is influencing me to "bulk up" on health and Armor - to stay alive. It is a little like my Healer. I am running SPC and Crafty, just to ensure I never run out of Magicka.

At one dungeon (yes only normal), it felt comfortable to wade into a mob, with health north of 50 (buffed with food and/or scaled) and physical resistance at 27k. Actually had one person comment on that run "...you are tanky enough...".

Now just marking time to lvl 50.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty

Thanks. Makes me laugh at all the time I was running the WB quests on VV this weekend to just get a weapon, and I had picked up a CP160 dagger a long time ago.

On gear, I was toying with the idea of Torug's pact cause what you folks were saying about the crusher enchantment (I think). On that, I started using it with the frost staff, and I see the icon. To the point from before, it does count down from 5 to zero, but then it starts up again. I have also been keeping Undaunted Bastion as well.

I remember reading from someone - I think it was on this post thread - the primary role of a Tank was keeping alive, and I will fundamentally acknowledge that my "newness" to this role is influencing me to "bulk up" on health and Armor - to stay alive. It is a little like my Healer. I am running SPC and Crafty, just to ensure I never run out of Magicka.

At one dungeon (yes only normal), it felt comfortable to wade into a mob, with health north of 50 (buffed with food and/or scaled) and physical resistance at 27k. Actually had one person comment on that run "...you are tanky enough...".

Now just marking time to lvl 50.

After you get to CP160 and stop having the weird leveling applied to you, you'll get a sense of how many HP you really have.

Just keep in mind your ability scores are wasted if they don't get used.

It's fine to start high HP. When I started the game I had higher HP than I do now. I noticed I ran out of stamina and magicka far sooner than health in most situations. And having that stam/mag is almost the same as having health when you have instant healing skills available.

There are definitely 'high health' tank builds that push 50 (or even higher) but they're pretty uncommon now. When you block and avoid mechanics, as long as your resistances are high you won't tend to need huge bags of HP available.

Snow_White

In the early dungeons I’d farm Ebon (body) and Worm (weapons/jewellery).

Ebon you won’t really use much once you have access to some of the better tank sets, but worm you’ll get use out of all the way to the end game.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. To your point, I have been noting that I am more often now running out of Stamina. But I am also occasionally falling into the mode of trying to be a Stam DPS rather than a tank. Probably need to pull that back a bit.

Full disclosure, I have not yet assigned a bunch of attribute points yet. However, I did some math on how much "health" is default on farmed gear, and was toying with the idea of reglyphing to stamina (yes I know it might get dealt with when I finally assign the AP or respec things) and see how things play out. I am trying to get a handle on things before I have to do a "respec" on the attributes point using the scroll (and yes, I know that I can buy another one )

@Snow_White

Thanks. I saw one website that suggested a build with worm, and to your point, I was actually buffing my mag regen (a tea I think) for a few dungeons and it "seemed" better.

I saw one from my other CP160 toons that got picked up (cannot remember the name now) that extends out something like a 10k+ shield to the group whenever I take any damage. That seemed a not bad set - at least at this level of my understanding.

Fennwitty

Snow_White wrote: »

In the early dungeons I’d farm Ebon (body) and Worm (weapons/jewellery).

Ebon you won’t really use much once you have access to some of the better tank sets, but worm you’ll get use out of all the way to the end game.

Yes, Worm's Raiment is a useful set to have available.

It's a light armor naturally, and kind of aimed at healers, but many times it helps for the tank to be able to wear it and free up t he healers to wear other items.

For non-heavy armor sets, you'll tend to go for getting weapons/shield and jewelry pieces, so your other gear set can be heavy on the body pieces.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty

Full disclosure, I have not yet assigned a bunch of attribute points yet. However, I did some math on how much "health" is default on farmed gear, and was toying with the idea of reglyphing to stamina (yes I know it might get dealt with when I finally assign the AP or respec things) and see how things play out. I am trying to get a handle on things before I have to do a "respec" on the attributes point using the scroll (and yes, I know that I can buy another one )

You don't need the scrolls at all. Go to a 'capital' city temple and you can pay a little gold at any time to completely re-do your attribute scores or your skills (or just the morph choices).

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks.

Did not know that.