Why is everything so expensive? (PC NA)

Kwoung

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the only time i feel that i dont have enough money is any kind of stuff like guild auctions/raffles, i know there is always someone with more gold than me, so i never participate (auctions bid prices can sometimes get well over what the items are worth individually, and raffles, he who has the most money is most likely to win and i refuse to put money into something i am like 90%+ guaranteed to get nothing out of)

Off topic, but I felt the same way. Auctions however, are to support the guild and fund their trader, thus the overbids. Raffles on the other hand just need to be setup right. In my guild we have a public spreadsheet so everyone can see their numbers, we also have 10 prizes and roll from 10th to 1st... which was our way of combating "buying the raffle". By the time the roll for the best prize comes along, the whales have pretty much won one of the lessor prizes and are not included in that roll. We also use a Discord bot to do the rolls, which makes it transparent, as those in-game dice rollers, you can edit the roll before pressing enter and posting it to guild chat... very not transparent and that is what kept me from participating in raffles in other guilds I have been in, there was no way to know if it was fair or they were simply feeding prizes to friends.

Lumsdenml

Blinx wrote: »

this is one of the reasons I stay on xbox, I tried pc, it just wasn't for me, I could gauge I was gonna be forever *** poor, and while I don't have much, is more than I would ever have on pc.

For example yesterday someone was trying to sell Crowns in Summerset at 200:1, he got ridiculed,and basically was told to try another zone because the going rate was 100;1, this would NEVER happen on PC.

Wow.... pc na rate is 1200:1

Kwoung

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Blinx wrote: »

this is one of the reasons I stay on xbox, I tried pc, it just wasn't for me, I could gauge I was gonna be forever *** poor, and while I don't have much, is more than I would ever have on pc.

For example yesterday someone was trying to sell Crowns in Summerset at 200:1, he got ridiculed,and basically was told to try another zone because the going rate was 100;1, this would NEVER happen on PC.

Wow.... pc na rate is 1200:1

On Euro servers it is 2000:1 now.

Lumsdenml

mickeyx wrote: »

Hooded_1 wrote: »

Returning player. Quit for a year and a half. Came back and the prices of consumes, upgrade mats, and other generally useful items has increased tenfold. What the heck happened? Was there a new system ZOS implemented that injected more money into the economy? Some glitch that people exploited? What am I missing?

We saved the economy by rejecting centralised/global auction house. Yay us.

Central auction house would be much worse.... we would have seen these prices in 2017. Inflation is a sign of a robust and mature economy.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

PC EU prices I've seen recently:
Chromimum platings - (Minimum) 300K+
Dreugh Wax - (19K+)
Tempering Alloys - 10k
Rosin - is always the black sheep of the family and is worth peanuts

Lumsdenml

Kwoung wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Blinx wrote: »

this is one of the reasons I stay on xbox, I tried pc, it just wasn't for me, I could gauge I was gonna be forever *** poor, and while I don't have much, is more than I would ever have on pc.

For example yesterday someone was trying to sell Crowns in Summerset at 200:1, he got ridiculed,and basically was told to try another zone because the going rate was 100;1, this would NEVER happen on PC.

Wow.... pc na rate is 1200:1

On Euro servers it is 2000:1 now.

Oh man, going to have to revive my EU character...

Necrotech_Master

Kwoung wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the only time i feel that i dont have enough money is any kind of stuff like guild auctions/raffles, i know there is always someone with more gold than me, so i never participate (auctions bid prices can sometimes get well over what the items are worth individually, and raffles, he who has the most money is most likely to win and i refuse to put money into something i am like 90%+ guaranteed to get nothing out of)

Off topic, but I felt the same way. Auctions however, are to support the guild and fund their trader, thus the overbids. Raffles on the other hand just need to be setup right. In my guild we have a public spreadsheet so everyone can see their numbers, we also have 10 prizes and roll from 10th to 1st... which was our way of combating "buying the raffle". By the time the roll for the best prize comes along, the whales have pretty much won one of the lessor prizes and are not included in that roll. We also use a Discord bot to do the rolls, which makes it transparent, as those in-game dice rollers, you can edit the roll before pressing enter and posting it to guild chat... very not transparent and that is what kept me from participating in raffles in other guilds I have been in, there was no way to know if it was fair or they were simply feeding prizes to friends.

oh i understand its to support the guilds trader bids

in the situation you have where the whales are more likely to win lesser value items, that would annoy me just as much as not winning anything at all lol "all i deposited was a million gold and all i got was this lousy t-shirt" lol

Kwoung

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the only time i feel that i dont have enough money is any kind of stuff like guild auctions/raffles, i know there is always someone with more gold than me, so i never participate (auctions bid prices can sometimes get well over what the items are worth individually, and raffles, he who has the most money is most likely to win and i refuse to put money into something i am like 90%+ guaranteed to get nothing out of)

Off topic, but I felt the same way. Auctions however, are to support the guild and fund their trader, thus the overbids. Raffles on the other hand just need to be setup right. In my guild we have a public spreadsheet so everyone can see their numbers, we also have 10 prizes and roll from 10th to 1st... which was our way of combating "buying the raffle". By the time the roll for the best prize comes along, the whales have pretty much won one of the lessor prizes and are not included in that roll. We also use a Discord bot to do the rolls, which makes it transparent, as those in-game dice rollers, you can edit the roll before pressing enter and posting it to guild chat... very not transparent and that is what kept me from participating in raffles in other guilds I have been in, there was no way to know if it was fair or they were simply feeding prizes to friends.

oh i understand its to support the guilds trader bids

in the situation you have where the whales are more likely to win lesser value items, that would annoy me just as much as not winning anything at all lol "all i deposited was a million gold and all i got was this lousy t-shirt" lol

ROFL yeah, but the folks who are putting in the million gold are well aware of that, and are also pretty much doing it just to help support our trader. They are quite fine with "buying" a couple stacks of unfilleted fish for that million and letting the other members win the furnishing packs, rare motifs, crown crates or whatever the top prizes happen to be that week.

hafgood

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
No, gold in this game is pretend money. You do not own it, it is not yours. When the game servers are turned off it will be gone.

People may sell it for real world cash but we all know that's against the terms of service.

Even crowns are pretend money. You cannot sell them back to Zos and again when the game closes they will be lost, Zos are not going to give you a cheque for all the crowns you have bought from them

When people buy gold or crowns for cash they are buying pixels. It isn't a virtual currency, its an in game currency, its a pretend currency in a pretend world. Its not real money, you can't take it to a shop and spend it. You can't - legitimately - turn it into cash. The fact they bought it with cash is no different to buying a bag of peanuts.

So where is its value? It has none.

And once you understand that you realise that shouting and screaming that something has to be done about the inflation on the server, that Zos must step in and do something about it is pointless.

I've read plenty of ideas as to how to curb the problem - they all damage the gold that new players can earn while barely touching those of the rich, sure stop the gold on writs - and then the poor new player loses a source of income, one which the rich player can laugh about because he already has his millions.

Every gold sink that has been suggested isn't. Sell houses for gold I hear people cry, it will act as a gold sink. No it won't. Not everyone wants every house, and once bought its bought, it can't be bought again.

Kwoung

hafgood wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
No, gold in this game is pretend money. You do not own it, it is not yours. When the game servers are turned off it will be gone.

People may sell it for real world cash but we all know that's against the terms of service.

Even crowns are pretend money. You cannot sell them back to Zos and again when the game closes they will be lost, Zos are not going to give you a cheque for all the crowns you have bought from them

When people buy gold or crowns for cash they are buying pixels. It isn't a virtual currency, its an in game currency, its a pretend currency in a pretend world. Its not real money, you can't take it to a shop and spend it. You can't - legitimately - turn it into cash. The fact they bought it with cash is no different to buying a bag of peanuts.

So where is its value? It has none.

And once you understand that you realise that shouting and screaming that something has to be done about the inflation on the server, that Zos must step in and do something about it is pointless.

I've read plenty of ideas as to how to curb the problem - they all damage the gold that new players can earn while barely touching those of the rich, sure stop the gold on writs - and then the poor new player loses a source of income, one which the rich player can laugh about because he already has his millions.

Every gold sink that has been suggested isn't. Sell houses for gold I hear people cry, it will act as a gold sink. No it won't. Not everyone wants every house, and once bought its bought, it can't be bought again.

That whole argument is based upon not giving a hoot about an entire part of the game. By that logic, why can't we all just one shot every mob, it's only a game right, what would it matter in the scheme of things? But, apparently people like to play the game and have it somewhat balanced, which holds true for both combat... and the economy, which is just a big a part of the game as combat is, maybe bigger actually. Myself, I could care less about most PVE combat in the game, so being able to walk around and one shot mobs, bosses, and solo every trial would work just fine for me, even though it would basically ruin the game for anyone that does care about it.

newtinmpls

Arunei wrote: »

People keep asking for ZOS to sell "base game" mounts in respective areas, like guar or Nix-Oxen in Morrowind, camels in Hammerfell, and so on. That right there would be a huge gold sink for a LOT of players. Releasing more houses that can be bought for gold instead of Crowns more than once every year or two would help, too, especially more Small and Medium ones.

Holy crap...If I could buy the equivalent of a "dun" "paint" and "midnight" guar, I would do it in a second.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

hafgood wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
No, gold in this game is pretend money. You do not own it, it is not yours. When the game servers are turned off it will be gone.

People may sell it for real world cash but we all know that's against the terms of service.

Even crowns are pretend money. You cannot sell them back to Zos and again when the game closes they will be lost, Zos are not going to give you a cheque for all the crowns you have bought from them

When people buy gold or crowns for cash they are buying pixels. It isn't a virtual currency, its an in game currency, its a pretend currency in a pretend world. Its not real money, you can't take it to a shop and spend it. You can't - legitimately - turn it into cash. The fact they bought it with cash is no different to buying a bag of peanuts.

So where is its value? It has none.

And once you understand that you realise that shouting and screaming that something has to be done about the inflation on the server, that Zos must step in and do something about it is pointless.

I've read plenty of ideas as to how to curb the problem - they all damage the gold that new players can earn while barely touching those of the rich, sure stop the gold on writs - and then the poor new player loses a source of income, one which the rich player can laugh about because he already has his millions.

Every gold sink that has been suggested isn't. Sell houses for gold I hear people cry, it will act as a gold sink. No it won't. Not everyone wants every house, and once bought its bought, it can't be bought again.

Again, things have value because people believe it has value. I am not talking about some distant point in the future when servers go offline, I am talking about the here and now. In the here and now, there are ways to convert my gold to cash, or more indirectly convert it into something (crowns) that can otherwise only be bought with cash. Sure they are for a video game, sure ZOS has ultimate control over it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

Simply put, if I want something in the crown store. I can either buy crowns with cash, or I can buy crowns with gold. For any crown store transaction, their is a gold to cash equivalency. Its ludicrous to suggest one doesn't have value when the other by definition does.

As for shouting, I am not shouting, I am rich in this game, got more gold than I will ever need, even with inflation. I dont buy crowns with gold, because I also have a RL job and can pay cash if there is something I really want. I am simply responding to the dozenth thread on this topic about PC pricing being out of control. I am simply offering an explanation based on the the fact that real world economic principles are applicable in an MMO economy.

If you pump more money into the game than you remove, inflation (devaluation of the currency) is the result. I am also following the bread crumbs here. One of the most obvious difference in gold sinks and gold sources between PC and Console are writs and how easy they are to do on PC. It is the best place to start if ZOS wants to do something abut the issue.

As to old vs new players. New players arent exploiting writs. They dont have 18 toons ready to do them. Experienced players do. Writs are a great place to start if you specifically dont want to mess with the new guy.

As to selling more houses for gold. It would absolutely be a gold sink. We can certainly debate how effective it might be, but acting like its not a sink is simply untrue.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

The inflation has also effected gameplay, back in 2020 when Crowns were 200:1 I would go on thieving sprees throughout places like the Sentinel Docks, outside the DSA among other places, I don't do that anymore because there is no value in it, I can make the same amount of Gold by selling 1 single Dreugh Wax now then I could after several hours of theiving from back then, I no longer do Cyrodiil dailies eitherr, that 300 gold reward from each quest means nothing now so I don't do them.

Sidonius

Vampires and Werewolf have to offset all the free "bites" they give.

Alendrin

Inflation is caused by a lot of different things, just like in the real world.

Increases in the amount of currency are one cause, what is called velocity of money is a big part of this. SImply put, this is how fast money gets spent. If people are hoarding money instead of spending it, prices really can't go up.

In the case of ESO, ZOS has been giving out 100K somewhat regularly in daily rewards and also daily crafting is easy, especially on PC, and generates a lot of gold. Also, I think a lot of players know there is high inflation so they hoard materials (spend quickly) or anything else that is a store of value and can be sold.

There are also sever supply/demand imbalances in the game. People don't farm resources much anymore. Even in craglorn where there is nirn. This is the only supply of nirn and furniture materials. Roe is expensive because it now has many uses but fishing is boring [snip] for most people.

Demand for resources is huge due to housing and also master writs, especially on PC where they are quick to do. The master writ vendors now sell 1000+ furniture plans, experience stuff, dummies, and attunables for guild crafting houses. These writs get generated fast and can be cranked out fast but use a lot of purple and gold tempers.

Of course ESO makes changes to gear constantly which leads to constant demand for materials as well.

Finally, event writs often use insane amounts of some materials to get skins, etc.

As I mentioned before, wealthy players with craft bags hoard materials because they can see their gold disappearing before their eyes.


Solutions

Here are some solutions that involve not destroying the above systems, which do help players get the things they want.

First, stop giving out gold. Replace it with things people want, at conversion rates well below market (which will drive down prices). Example, instead of 100K gold (happening this month, it made me cringe), give out 20 tempering alloy or 200 mundane runes, which are conversion rates far below market, at least on PC. These are things that people want anyways and could be sold if they didn't. You are increasing supply of things that are harder to get and not flooding the market with gold. As a bonus, it breaks speculation and hoarding habits because people never know when huge supply is about to hit the market.

The same is true for crafting dailies. Reduce gold, increase non-gold rewards, either in additional tempers or perhaps housing materials. Do so at conversion rates well below market.

Take a look at the master writ market. I would not make them less common, there are a lot of things on ther vendors that people want. Right now, many cloth and jewelry aren't even worth doing due to materials costs. This means there need to be a lot more upgrade materials so I would probably change the rate at which refining creates upgrade materials, but there are several solutions here.

Housing materials need to be made a lot more common as well.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Amottica

Woozywyvern wrote: »

If console and PC are vastly different, and its solely down to the speed of doing writs, then the answer is simple. Ban the Addon for speeding up writs, make it as difficult as it is on the console and we should see the PC market correct itself.

It would not be solely due to the writ addon. Even then the price difference between the two platforms is not relevant since they do not compete with each other.

There is a simple formula of supply and demand of materials. If fewer players are farming and selling those materials the price should be expected to go up.

In the long run, it will balance as those who refuse to pay the going rate will realize their best bet is to farm the materials themselves if they really want the matts.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Amottica wrote: »

Woozywyvern wrote: »

If console and PC are vastly different, and its solely down to the speed of doing writs, then the answer is simple. Ban the Addon for speeding up writs, make it as difficult as it is on the console and we should see the PC market correct itself.

It would not be solely due to the writ addon. Even then the price difference between the two platforms is not relevant since they do not compete with each other.

There is a simple formula of supply and demand of materials. If fewer players are farming and selling those materials the price should be expected to go up.

In the long run, it will balance as those who refuse to pay the going rate will realize their best bet is to farm the materials themselves if they really want the matts.

If the price on one item is way out of line, then yes, you probably have some sort of market aberration and Supply and Demand will work itself out.

If the price on everything is out of line, you likely have a problem with the value of the underlying currency. That is not a supply demand issue, that is an inflation/deflation issue.

I will never say the differences on PC and Console are solely due to writs, but it is a clear difference in the two economies. Writs are absolutely a massive contributor to the rampant inflation on PC. It is far easier to create gold out of thin air on PC, and gold has far less value on PC. What we would expect to happen is happening. The story checks out.

Sidebar: It would be interesting to know if there is an active market for an exchange of gold between PC and console, and what the exchange rate is. Certainly, gold is worth more on console. In other words, If I had 10 mil in PC gold to trade to a console player, I wouldn't expect to receive any where near that in Console cold as an exchange. Console gold is worth more. Console doesn't have nearly the inflation problem that PC does.

Amottica

@Oreyn_Bearclaw below is information I put together and it shows inflation on PC/NA is not rampant. Yes, there are items that have increased in value such as Chromium. However, I did not cherry-pick the items below as I looked as some items that are often used. They do indicate that inflation is not out of control by any means.

Below is Tempering Alloy which is a much more widely used gold upgrade material than Chromium. It's cost seems to have decreased over the past year which is deflation.

Rosin for wood. It shows a slight increase in price from a year ago, but a decrease in price from about 340 days ago.

there does not seem to be an indication of the inflation some are claiming.

I looked at Rubedite ingot, which did not show any inflation, and Rubedite ore, which has decreased in price over the past year, to see if the base material showed notable inflation. I did not post them here as the post would become annoyingly long, if not already.

I will also note that USEP considers this system to be Early Beta. It also appears to gather data from players using a specific addon USEP developed. So while it uses "real" information it may have a limited number of users.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Amottica wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw below is information I put together and it shows inflation on PC/NA is not rampant. Yes, there are items that have increased in value such as Chromium. However, I did not cherry-pick the items below as I looked as some items that are often used. They do indicate that inflation is not out of control by any means.

Below is Tempering Alloy which is a much more widely used gold upgrade material than Chromium. It's cost seems to have decreased over the past year which is deflation.

Rosin for wood. It shows a slight increase in price from a year ago, but a decrease in price from about 340 days ago.

there does not seem to be an indication of the inflation some are claiming.

I looked at Rubedite ingot, which did not show any inflation, and Rubedite ore, which has decreased in price over the past year, to see if the base material showed notable inflation. I did not post them here as the post would become annoyingly long, if not already.

I will also note that USEP considers this system to be Early Beta. It also appears to gather data from players using a specific addon USEP developed. So while it uses "real" information it may have a limited number of users.

Interesting data. I am not sure Rosin and Temp alloy are the best benchmarks of the economy. It is of course impossible to completely separate the price impact between Inflation/Deflation and supply/demand. Both are always at work on every item, it is just a question of magnitude.

The two items you listed are very very low in the demand department. Most old timers have an ample supply of rosin, and typically need between 8 (stam) and 16 (magic) for a meta build. Your average PVE player that is not a tank requires 0 Temp alloy these days as magic, and 8-16 as a stamina player. Recent changes to armor passives have actually lowered demand here, because 5/1/1 is pretty much gone.

Your average build always needs 30 chromium grains to max, and upwards 56 of Wax. Chromium is more recent to the economy, but why not use Wax as a metric of inflation. Or more relevant, why not use Crown price as metric of inflation? Crown prices are arguably the best metric and are likely the least impacted by supply demand considerations. Most supply/demand is a result of balance decisions. Anyone with cash can buy crowns to sell, and there are always new shineys to be bought.

Wax has been on an upward trajectory for a while that I dont think Supply Demand can explain by itself. Crowns are through the roof on one platform, but not another. I don't know how you explain that without looking at the value/purchasing power of the underlying currency, i.e. inflation/deflation. There are also ways to measure the value of your entire craft bag. I don't do many writs these days, but yet, every time I check it, the overall value is up. I could log out for 6 months, and my craft bag would be worth more when logged back in, I am 100% sure of that. If there was no inflation, that would almost certainly not be true.

Now certainly, inflation may not be as rampant as the forums would have you believe. Most problems arent as severe as the internet says they are, but to act like inflation is doesn't even exist, not sure I can get behind that.

Xebov

Alendrin wrote: »

First, stop giving out gold. Replace it with things people want, at conversion rates well below market (which will drive down prices). Example, instead of 100K gold (happening this month, it made me cringe), give out 20 tempering alloy or 200 mundane runes, which are conversion rates far below market, at least on PC. These are things that people want anyways and could be sold if they didn't. You are increasing supply of things that are harder to get and not flooding the market with gold. As a bonus, it breaks speculation and hoarding habits because people never know when huge supply is about to hit the market.

The same is true for crafting dailies. Reduce gold, increase non-gold rewards, either in additional tempers or perhaps housing materials. Do so at conversion rates well below market.

Iam not a fan of this. Like you said there are fewer ppl farming and more buying. In the core many inflation/price threads are about this very matter. These 2 ideas look more like you want to adapt the game towards these players and supprot their lazyness or unwillingness.

Amottica

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw below is information I put together and it shows inflation on PC/NA is not rampant. Yes, there are items that have increased in value such as Chromium. However, I did not cherry-pick the items below as I looked as some items that are often used. They do indicate that inflation is not out of control by any means.

Below is Tempering Alloy which is a much more widely used gold upgrade material than Chromium. It's cost seems to have decreased over the past year which is deflation.

Rosin for wood. It shows a slight increase in price from a year ago, but a decrease in price from about 340 days ago.

there does not seem to be an indication of the inflation some are claiming.

I looked at Rubedite ingot, which did not show any inflation, and Rubedite ore, which has decreased in price over the past year, to see if the base material showed notable inflation. I did not post them here as the post would become annoyingly long, if not already.

I will also note that USEP considers this system to be Early Beta. It also appears to gather data from players using a specific addon USEP developed. So while it uses "real" information it may have a limited number of users.

Interesting data. I am not sure Rosin and Temp alloy are the best benchmarks of the economy. It is of course impossible to completely separate the price impact between Inflation/Deflation and supply/demand. Both are always at work on every item, it is just a question of magnitude.

The two items you listed are very very low in the demand department. Most old timers have an ample supply of rosin, and typically need between 8 (stam) and 16 (magic) for a meta build. Your average PVE player that is not a tank requires 0 Temp alloy these days as magic, and 8-16 as a stamina player. Recent changes to armor passives have actually lowered demand here, because 5/1/1 is pretty much gone.

Your average build always needs 30 chromium grains to max, and upwards 56 of Wax. Chromium is more recent to the economy, but why not use Wax as a metric of inflation. Or more relevant, why not use Crown price as metric of inflation? Crown prices are arguably the best metric and are likely the least impacted by supply demand considerations. Most supply/demand is a result of balance decisions. Anyone with cash can buy crowns to sell, and there are always new shineys to be bought.

Wax has been on an upward trajectory for a while that I dont think Supply Demand can explain by itself. Crowns are through the roof on one platform, but not another. I don't know how you explain that without looking at the value/purchasing power of the underlying currency, i.e. inflation/deflation. There are also ways to measure the value of your entire craft bag. I don't do many writs these days, but yet, every time I check it, the overall value is up. I could log out for 6 months, and my craft bag would be worth more when logged back in, I am 100% sure of that. If there was no inflation, that would almost certainly not be true.

Now certainly, inflation may not be as rampant as the forums would have you believe. Most problems arent as severe as the internet says they are, but to act like inflation is doesn't even exist, not sure I can get behind that.

I am glad you mention how supply and demand work into this as they are the crux of any economy.

That same supply and demand explain why chromium has inflated significantly considering how rare it is to get. That rarity is also by design. Zenimax stated they want jewelry crafting to be special which is why the upgrade matts are so rare. They did not want it to be like the other crafting so this is working as intended. Do some crafting writs and get them for free.

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

---

I also listed 4 items. I merely showed the graphs for two. Those two would be in as much demand, if not more, than chromium. Dreux Wax is used to upgrade armor and weapons which is farm more pieces than jewelry. Many, especially in PvP, choose heavy armor to equip. Further, the benefit of upgrading weapons to gold is significantly more than jewelry.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Amottica wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw below is information I put together and it shows inflation on PC/NA is not rampant. Yes, there are items that have increased in value such as Chromium. However, I did not cherry-pick the items below as I looked as some items that are often used. They do indicate that inflation is not out of control by any means.

Below is Tempering Alloy which is a much more widely used gold upgrade material than Chromium. It's cost seems to have decreased over the past year which is deflation.

Rosin for wood. It shows a slight increase in price from a year ago, but a decrease in price from about 340 days ago.

there does not seem to be an indication of the inflation some are claiming.

I looked at Rubedite ingot, which did not show any inflation, and Rubedite ore, which has decreased in price over the past year, to see if the base material showed notable inflation. I did not post them here as the post would become annoyingly long, if not already.

I will also note that USEP considers this system to be Early Beta. It also appears to gather data from players using a specific addon USEP developed. So while it uses "real" information it may have a limited number of users.

Interesting data. I am not sure Rosin and Temp alloy are the best benchmarks of the economy. It is of course impossible to completely separate the price impact between Inflation/Deflation and supply/demand. Both are always at work on every item, it is just a question of magnitude.

The two items you listed are very very low in the demand department. Most old timers have an ample supply of rosin, and typically need between 8 (stam) and 16 (magic) for a meta build. Your average PVE player that is not a tank requires 0 Temp alloy these days as magic, and 8-16 as a stamina player. Recent changes to armor passives have actually lowered demand here, because 5/1/1 is pretty much gone.

Your average build always needs 30 chromium grains to max, and upwards 56 of Wax. Chromium is more recent to the economy, but why not use Wax as a metric of inflation. Or more relevant, why not use Crown price as metric of inflation? Crown prices are arguably the best metric and are likely the least impacted by supply demand considerations. Most supply/demand is a result of balance decisions. Anyone with cash can buy crowns to sell, and there are always new shineys to be bought.

Wax has been on an upward trajectory for a while that I dont think Supply Demand can explain by itself. Crowns are through the roof on one platform, but not another. I don't know how you explain that without looking at the value/purchasing power of the underlying currency, i.e. inflation/deflation. There are also ways to measure the value of your entire craft bag. I don't do many writs these days, but yet, every time I check it, the overall value is up. I could log out for 6 months, and my craft bag would be worth more when logged back in, I am 100% sure of that. If there was no inflation, that would almost certainly not be true.

Now certainly, inflation may not be as rampant as the forums would have you believe. Most problems arent as severe as the internet says they are, but to act like inflation is doesn't even exist, not sure I can get behind that.

I am glad you mention how supply and demand work into this as they are the crux of any economy.

That same supply and demand explain why chromium has inflated significantly considering how rare it is to get. That rarity is also by design. Zenimax stated they want jewelry crafting to be special which is why the upgrade matts are so rare. They did not want it to be like the other crafting so this is working as intended. Do some crafting writs and get them for free.

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

To be fair, I can make that same argument about almost any gold upgrade. Other than perhaps your front bar weapon, most people wont notice the difference between gold and purple gear. The desire for gold gear has little to do with objective results. It's a fantasy world. People want gold because its the best, not because mathematically it increases your damage by .02% (yes I made that number up).

To be clear, Supply and Demand are very important in any discussion of price, but so is the value of the underlying currency. To many people that think they are economists cry Supply and Demand every time there is a discussion about prices, as if it is the only thing affecting them. If you live in a country that just started printing absurd amounts of money, you wouldn't be worrying about supply/demand when prices start increasing. You would be worrying about the government devaluing your currency. In an MMO like this, where there is a virtually limitless supply of currency, Inflation is something that needs to be managed.

ZOS does of course manage it. That is why there are gold sinks in the first place. That said, it doesn't mean they couldnt do a better job of it. I think the game could use better gold sinks certainly, but I think they could also do a better job regulating some of the areas where it is overly easy to simply print money. And again, I think the proof is in the pudding as they say. Prices are way higher on PC than console. That is because Gold has less value on PC than on Console, which I believe to be largely due to the fact that it is much easier to create money out of thin air on PC (inflation), and has very little to do with a supply and demand issue.

Nezyr_Jezz

Amottica wrote: »

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

Disagree. We had a huge shift in PVE meta and most dps builds swaped their jewelery, and if you take a look at how much spell/weapon damage you are losing on bloodthirsty between purple and gold you will know where the spike came from as well. Literally whole raiding groups were swaping their jewelery which was the first time they did that in about 2-3 years.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Xebov wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

First, stop giving out gold. Replace it with things people want, at conversion rates well below market (which will drive down prices). Example, instead of 100K gold (happening this month, it made me cringe), give out 20 tempering alloy or 200 mundane runes, which are conversion rates far below market, at least on PC. These are things that people want anyways and could be sold if they didn't. You are increasing supply of things that are harder to get and not flooding the market with gold. As a bonus, it breaks speculation and hoarding habits because people never know when huge supply is about to hit the market.

The same is true for crafting dailies. Reduce gold, increase non-gold rewards, either in additional tempers or perhaps housing materials. Do so at conversion rates well below market.

Iam not a fan of this. Like you said there are fewer ppl farming and more buying. In the core many inflation/price threads are about this very matter. These 2 ideas look more like you want to adapt the game towards these players and supprot their lazyness or unwillingness.

Actually, I think the lazy approach on both the devs and the playerbase is to want gold rewards. Whether it's the monthly reward being 20 Temp alloy instead of 100k gold, or crafting writs bumping their gold drops in exchange for the gold currency, you are requiring more work on the part of the player to get gold, because they actually have to engage in the economy.

People miss the point that this actually kills two birds with one stone. It tackles both the Inflation/deflation issue by reducing incoming gold (good thing IMO), AND it tackles the supply and demand issues we have by introducing more supply.

As it is now, the writs I do (or more accurately did aggressively in the past), print gold into the economy and give me more than I will ever need to spend. They also give me more gold mats, than I realistically could use (save maybe chromium). The result is that not only is it contributing to inflation but it is also impacting supply and demand. I never sell gold mats. I don't need to because I have all the gold I need. More importantly, because of inflation, it is smarter for me to hold my wealth in mats, not currency.

If you increase the drop rewards of mats, but reduce the gold, well 2 things happen. One, less gold coming into the economy, so inflation is curbed. Two, because I cant print the gold I need, I am more incentivized to sell my excess mats to generate it. That forces more mats into the market, again helping get prices under control. It is a win win.

Woozywyvern

So given that the only data provided in this thread seems to indicate inflation is not hitting any but the rarest of materials, would someone from anti crafting writ supporters provide any counter data that inflation is actually a major issue?

Not your beliefs, or assertions with no evidence, but you know, some actual data? Maybe once we see this we can start to listen to the idea. Until then, it is just that ... an idea.

And in fact if you look at the graph for the Chromium plating in the closed thread, even that was stable right up until blackwood and deadlands where it started to climb.

tmbrinks

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

First, stop giving out gold. Replace it with things people want, at conversion rates well below market (which will drive down prices). Example, instead of 100K gold (happening this month, it made me cringe), give out 20 tempering alloy or 200 mundane runes, which are conversion rates far below market, at least on PC. These are things that people want anyways and could be sold if they didn't. You are increasing supply of things that are harder to get and not flooding the market with gold. As a bonus, it breaks speculation and hoarding habits because people never know when huge supply is about to hit the market.

The same is true for crafting dailies. Reduce gold, increase non-gold rewards, either in additional tempers or perhaps housing materials. Do so at conversion rates well below market.

Iam not a fan of this. Like you said there are fewer ppl farming and more buying. In the core many inflation/price threads are about this very matter. These 2 ideas look more like you want to adapt the game towards these players and supprot their lazyness or unwillingness.

Actually, I think the lazy approach on both the devs and the playerbase is to want gold rewards. Whether it's the monthly reward being 20 Temp alloy instead of 100k gold, or crafting writs bumping their gold drops in exchange for the gold currency, you are requiring more work on the part of the player to get gold, because they actually have to engage in the economy.

People miss the point that this actually kills two birds with one stone. It tackles both the Inflation/deflation issue by reducing incoming gold (good thing IMO), AND it tackles the supply and demand issues we have by introducing more supply.

As it is now, the writs I do (or more accurately did aggressively in the past), print gold into the economy and give me more than I will ever need to spend. They also give me more gold mats, than I realistically could use (save maybe chromium). The result is that not only is it contributing to inflation but it is also impacting supply and demand. I never sell gold mats. I don't need to because I have all the gold I need. More importantly, because of inflation, it is smarter for me to hold my wealth in mats, not currency.

If you increase the drop rewards of mats, but reduce the gold, well 2 things happen. One, less gold coming into the economy, so inflation is curbed. Two, because I cant print the gold I need, I am more incentivized to sell my excess mats to generate it. That forces more mats into the market, again helping get prices under control. It is a win win.

Agree that the gold reward from writs could just be removed and a (small) bump in drop rate (although one may not even be needed with current prices), would help keep gold out of the economy.

I'm actually kicking myself (slightly) because I would sell some of my gold mats back in the day, selling those Wax for 8k, Platings for 90k, etc... and now I've lost "value" to the inflation because I converted it to gold instead of hoarding them in my craft bag where they can grow as an asset.

The non-gold drops from writs have always been the most valuable portion of the writs anyways.

zaria

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

Disagree. We had a huge shift in PVE meta and most dps builds swaped their jewelery, and if you take a look at how much spell/weapon damage you are losing on bloodthirsty between purple and gold you will know where the spike came from as well. Literally whole raiding groups were swaping their jewelery which was the first time they did that in about 2-3 years.

Yes switching to medusa who we all know will not be meta in some months because just change stuff because they can change it or more likely reasons
[snip]

Now leveling up and doing max level jewelry crafting writs on alts is how to beat the system. Have more plating than I need and just waiting for the happy times.


[edited for inappropriate content]

silvereyes

Hooded_1 wrote: »

Returning player. Quit for a year and a half. Came back and the prices of consumes, upgrade mats, and other generally useful items has increased tenfold. What the heck happened? Was there a new system ZOS implemented that injected more money into the economy? Some glitch that people exploited? What am I missing?

It would be helpful to know exactly which items you are concerned with. It's all well and good for people to debate whether there's been inflation on the server as a whole in the past year and a half, but the answer to what causes specific items to go up in value can be a lot more nuanced.

To answer your question about specific events that have happened in the last year and a half that have affected prices, the big one was a big spike in specific mat prices around the time Greymoor was released. The following is from a Tempering Alloy chart posted about a year ago in a similar thread complaining about prices:

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Most of the price increase happened after Greymoor in a very short period of time. If you consider elasticity it would take a single very impactful event to do this.

Note: The time range in that graph is relative to January 12, 2021.

I'm not sure anyone ever pinpointed exactly what caused that specific surge - whether it was some player population change due to the heavy marketing of "Skyrim Online", or some crackdown on bots, or the introduction of Antiquities as a gold faucet - but my money is probably on some combination of all of them. The sticker book and curated item drops are the other two major systems released since then, as well as a couple months of 100k daily login rewards, but the evidence around those causing major inflation, to me, seems less convincing.

Amottica

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

Disagree. We had a huge shift in PVE meta and most dps builds swaped their jewelery, and if you take a look at how much spell/weapon damage you are losing on bloodthirsty between purple and gold you will know where the spike came from as well. Literally whole raiding groups were swaping their jewelery which was the first time they did that in about 2-3 years.

Then that probably explains the increase in price for that item. No one has provided a similar increase for anything else.

However, Zenimax specifically wanted the upgrading of jewelry to be rare compared to the other crafting so it is working as intended and not an indication of widespread inflation.

Amottica

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw below is information I put together and it shows inflation on PC/NA is not rampant. Yes, there are items that have increased in value such as Chromium. However, I did not cherry-pick the items below as I looked as some items that are often used. They do indicate that inflation is not out of control by any means.

Below is Tempering Alloy which is a much more widely used gold upgrade material than Chromium. It's cost seems to have decreased over the past year which is deflation.

Rosin for wood. It shows a slight increase in price from a year ago, but a decrease in price from about 340 days ago.

there does not seem to be an indication of the inflation some are claiming.

I looked at Rubedite ingot, which did not show any inflation, and Rubedite ore, which has decreased in price over the past year, to see if the base material showed notable inflation. I did not post them here as the post would become annoyingly long, if not already.

I will also note that USEP considers this system to be Early Beta. It also appears to gather data from players using a specific addon USEP developed. So while it uses "real" information it may have a limited number of users.

Interesting data. I am not sure Rosin and Temp alloy are the best benchmarks of the economy. It is of course impossible to completely separate the price impact between Inflation/Deflation and supply/demand. Both are always at work on every item, it is just a question of magnitude.

The two items you listed are very very low in the demand department. Most old timers have an ample supply of rosin, and typically need between 8 (stam) and 16 (magic) for a meta build. Your average PVE player that is not a tank requires 0 Temp alloy these days as magic, and 8-16 as a stamina player. Recent changes to armor passives have actually lowered demand here, because 5/1/1 is pretty much gone.

Your average build always needs 30 chromium grains to max, and upwards 56 of Wax. Chromium is more recent to the economy, but why not use Wax as a metric of inflation. Or more relevant, why not use Crown price as metric of inflation? Crown prices are arguably the best metric and are likely the least impacted by supply demand considerations. Most supply/demand is a result of balance decisions. Anyone with cash can buy crowns to sell, and there are always new shineys to be bought.

Wax has been on an upward trajectory for a while that I dont think Supply Demand can explain by itself. Crowns are through the roof on one platform, but not another. I don't know how you explain that without looking at the value/purchasing power of the underlying currency, i.e. inflation/deflation. There are also ways to measure the value of your entire craft bag. I don't do many writs these days, but yet, every time I check it, the overall value is up. I could log out for 6 months, and my craft bag would be worth more when logged back in, I am 100% sure of that. If there was no inflation, that would almost certainly not be true.

Now certainly, inflation may not be as rampant as the forums would have you believe. Most problems arent as severe as the internet says they are, but to act like inflation is doesn't even exist, not sure I can get behind that.

I am glad you mention how supply and demand work into this as they are the crux of any economy.

That same supply and demand explain why chromium has inflated significantly considering how rare it is to get. That rarity is also by design. Zenimax stated they want jewelry crafting to be special which is why the upgrade matts are so rare. They did not want it to be like the other crafting so this is working as intended. Do some crafting writs and get them for free.

However, no build needs to use Chromium. It hardly makes a difference in any build. The benefit is so small that it is a waste of gold to go and buy it.

To be fair, I can make that same argument about almost any gold upgrade. Other than perhaps your front bar weapon, most people wont notice the difference between gold and purple gear. The desire for gold gear has little to do with objective results. It's a fantasy world. People want gold because its the best, not because mathematically it increases your damage by .02% (yes I made that number up).

To be clear, Supply and Demand are very important in any discussion of price, but so is the value of the underlying currency. To many people that think they are economists cry Supply and Demand every time there is a discussion about prices, as if it is the only thing affecting them. If you live in a country that just started printing absurd amounts of money, you wouldn't be worrying about supply/demand when prices start increasing. You would be worrying about the government devaluing your currency. In an MMO like this, where there is a virtually limitless supply of currency, Inflation is something that needs to be managed.

ZOS does of course manage it. That is why there are gold sinks in the first place. That said, it doesn't mean they couldnt do a better job of it. I think the game could use better gold sinks certainly, but I think they could also do a better job regulating some of the areas where it is overly easy to simply print money. And again, I think the proof is in the pudding as they say. Prices are way higher on PC than console. That is because Gold has less value on PC than on Console, which I believe to be largely due to the fact that it is much easier to create money out of thin air on PC (inflation), and has very little to do with a supply and demand issue.

To truly be fair, I provided specific information on two items and general information on two other items demonstrating the lack of inflation over the past year. I have yet to see anyone provide anything of substance outside of Chromium to demonstrate there is an inflation problem in the game.

One item increasing in price, no matter how significant that increase is, demonstrates there is an inflation problem in the game. More people should take advantage of the price increase of this one item and do jewelry crafting writs. They will make bank and the price will eventually drop as more add to the supply of this one item.