Drop monster helmet on normal.

AlnilamE

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The golden vendor should allow you to buy all shoulders with AP, similar to the undaunted coffers. I've run these dungeons so many times over the years. I'm just done with repeating the same content just to blow 100+ keys to finally get the weight you need. It's clear they weight the RNG of shoulders in the coffers to throw you the least desirable set in each one in the weights that are least likely to be useful for the set.

I guess you weren't here when a well known streamer made the same claim. Made a video where he said drops werent even in the monster chest. Rich came with the receipts of his actual drops and called BS. Said streamer came clean and apologized. Random is Random.

I am missing 2 shoulders total. I have not accumulated anywhere near as many keys as a lot of my buddies. System works just fine.

So because a player lied that means it's not true? I don't know if it's true. I only know my experience. I've never, ever, gotten the right shoulder in the first coffer, let alone the right weight. I've always had to spend 20 keys MINIMUM.

Yes the system is better than it was way back in the day but it's still there to keep you running content over and over and over and over, but because it's fun or enjoyable, but because the RNG is not favorable.

If they really wanted to disprove that, that could release the drop rates for undaunted but that would be an unwise move.

And how exactly does the game know which piece you are after? Do you whisper it in the NPCs ear before you buy the coffers?

M0ntie

ZoS don’t even THINK about doing to us with dungeons what you did with Maelstrom and effectively taking away the earned reward from vet when they brought in perfected. And NO WAY to reframing keys for perf shoulders.
As has been said, there are excellent monster helms from non DLC dungeons, and there is the golden vendor.

AuraStorm43

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

No.

You have to have progression in a game. This is not about participation trophies, where a lot of posters seem to want to go with it.

Normal > Perfected is progression

Again i’m asking, what dungeon have you been unable to do via the activity finder?

bruta

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

You don't even need a monster set before cp 160. At which point, when you do hit 160, you can easily enough get non dlc monster helmets to start off with until you're proficient enough to get dlc helmets (and many non dlc helmets are just as good as dlc helmets anyway these days). You should have to work your way up to the good stuff.... enough is just handed out in this game as it is. Including getting monster sets from pvp.

nah mate, all monster heads need to be relocated to normal Fungal Grotto I. and make them drop from first trash pack, right there in front of spawn point.
only then imbued with the necessary power and skill, you can tackle hard content like Fungal Grotto II

spartaxoxo

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

No.

You have to have progression in a game. This is not about participation trophies, where a lot of posters seem to want to go with it.

Normal > Perfected is progression

Again i’m asking, what dungeon have you been unable to do via the activity finder?

I am able to do all dungeon activities and am not the author of this thread. It's not a matter of what I can or cannot do.

Normal > Perfected is simply objectively a progression of gear.

Facefister

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.

If you are those "good" player, who try to tell me "find some friend and do vet".

NO, you dont understand what are you try to talk about about and you dont know what is the problem.

If the game allow you to PUG vet dungeon, they should be able to finish as PUG oriented team.

Stop gating ppl from getting gear which has no equivalent subsituation.

If you keep trying to follow the "advice" from those so call top% player, you will jsut follow the same fate as World of Warcraft.

Their veteran dungeons version which called "mythic dungeons". These hard version dungeons have little to no relevant toward the general playerbase.

Because they are to difficult (gear/class/skill restriction), majority of their player refuse to do it because they are stressful and time costing.

Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

I am fine with that, as long as they implement perfected versions of all sets plus gold jewellery from hardmodes.

spartaxoxo

Facefister wrote: »

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.

If you are those "good" player, who try to tell me "find some friend and do vet".

NO, you dont understand what are you try to talk about about and you dont know what is the problem.

If the game allow you to PUG vet dungeon, they should be able to finish as PUG oriented team.

Stop gating ppl from getting gear which has no equivalent subsituation.

If you keep trying to follow the "advice" from those so call top% player, you will jsut follow the same fate as World of Warcraft.

Their veteran dungeons version which called "mythic dungeons". These hard version dungeons have little to no relevant toward the general playerbase.

Because they are to difficult (gear/class/skill restriction), majority of their player refuse to do it because they are stressful and time costing.

Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

I am fine with that, as long as they implement perfected versions of all sets plus gold jewellery from hardmodes.

Gold Jewelry from hard modes is also a great idea!

Kwoung

They could just add a new passive to the Undaunted line like the crafting ones have. Spend 3 skill points and a NPC adventurer goes out and does the dungeon for you each day, and delivers the resulting helmet in the mail to you.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

They could just add a new passive to the Undaunted line like the crafting ones have. Spend 3 skill points and a NPC adventurer goes out and does the dungeon for you each day, and delivers the resulting helmet in the mail to you.

I think they should only come from pvp or dungeons. This solution also is RNG which is the same issue as the Golden

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

They could just add a new passive to the Undaunted line like the crafting ones have. Spend 3 skill points and a NPC adventurer goes out and does the dungeon for you each day, and delivers the resulting helmet in the mail to you.

I think they should only come from pvp or dungeons. This solution also is RNG which is the same issue as the Golden

1 Skill point : Base Dungeon
2 Skills points: DLC Dungeon
3 Skills points: Any Dungeon & delivers matching shoulders as well!

Heck, he could even deliver your daily transmutes, so playing the game to earn loot can be completely optional. That's up to 18 possible chances at a day depending on how many characters you have... wouldn't take long at all to collect all the monster sets.

In all seriousness, at what point should the game stop handing stuff out basically for free? Having played MMORPG's for over 20 years, I learned a long time ago that there will be items available in every one of them that I will never earn. It could be I am not good enough, I don't have the time to dedicate to it, or I simply do not like the particular content the item drops from. So I simply do without those items and make do with the next best thing I can obtain. Heck, I had decided long ago I would never earn an arena weapon, and I was fine with that, it was my personal choice. Then ZOS went and changed those to almost the point of show up and we hand you one. So yeah, I have most of them now, but do I feel good about earning them, was getting them under the new system any sort of an achievement? It wasn't for me.. it honestly felt more like a hand out.

The entire point of a MMO is to earn stuff, become more powerful, and earn better stuff, rinse and repeat... it is what keeps people playing for years. If you just keep making earning those things easier and easier, there is no sense of achievement anymore, and the game is no longer worth playing.

mickeyx

Franchise408 wrote: »

Vet rewards should be earned through vet difficulty.

There is no gear / class / skill restriction to do vet dungeons, and if you're not wanting to play vet content anyways, then there's little to no need for monster gear.

You mean like ring of pale order. The single most op item in the game? Lol 🤣

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

The entire point of a MMO is to earn stuff, become more powerful, and earn better stuff, rinse and repeat... it is what keeps people playing for years. If you just keep making earning those things easier and easier, there is no sense of achievement anymore, and the game is no longer worth playing.

If getting better stuff in vet is enough to make the game not worth playing for you, IDK what to tell you. Perfected versions of things are superior to normal, and I get that satisfaction from having perfected gear just fine. One of my personal favorite stickers is the ones I have from vet arena and the VKA.

If knowing someone has a inferior version to what you have bothers you, then we simply don't feel the same way. I certainly do not share that sentiment. Because what makes me get that sense of accomplishment is beating vet and having a nice thing I can only get from vet, it doesn't matter if there's an inferior version elsewhere.

The Golden also already ensures that having those monster helms does not mean that person beat vet. And yet, we all like monster helmets just fine. Heck, if they leave the golden the way it is and put those helms in normal, then a perfected helm would mean you had to beat vet to get it.

Kwoung

Quite honestly, if there actually are enough folks who would rather be handed stuff rather than earn it, ZOS should just spin up a permanent PTS type server for those folks to play on. Meanwhile, leaving the regular servers/game as is... and letting those of us who enjoy actually working towards and earning stuff alone. The whole world really doesn't need to be reduced to the lowest common denominator, it sucks the fun right out of it for many (most?) of us.

zaria

People expect HM on

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The golden vendor should allow you to buy all shoulders with AP, similar to the undaunted coffers. I've run these dungeons so many times over the years. I'm just done with repeating the same content just to blow 100+ keys to finally get the weight you need. It's clear they weight the RNG of shoulders in the coffers to throw you the least desirable set in each one in the weights that are least likely to be useful for the set.

I guess you weren't here when a well known streamer made the same claim. Made a video where he said drops werent even in the monster chest. Rich came with the receipts of his actual drops and called BS. Said streamer came clean and apologized. Random is Random.

I am missing 2 shoulders total. I have not accumulated anywhere near as many keys as a lot of my buddies. System works just fine.

Now it was some player on the forum who said he opened 15 chests trying get an shoulder but he did not get anything from the bis set he wanted, statistical its an 1/170000 chance if true.
Know that the SPC drops was tilted no staffs or jewelry outside of named items but so many bows. Ran that dungeon +50 times mostly on normal. The key fragments worked however

Ksariyu

Just gonna forgo reading through 4 pages of people pretending their pride is on the line here and say this is a good idea.

Monster shoulders can already be obtained through normal dungeons.
The game has moved gear to an almost exclusively horizontal progression system.
Most monster gear is not BiS in any way, and DLC dungeons are no exception despite adding a significant difficulty increase.
Players' reasoning for wanting monster sets may have more to do with fitting a certain theme or off-meta build they want to stick to, rather than wanting better stats.
Sets, monster sets included, are often the only way for players to give any sort of identity to their character given how the developers have handicapped the expansion of the skill system in favor of piling on sets.

If anyone can give a legitimate logical reason why monster sets should be locked behind vet content, I'd be incredibly surprised. If your argument is just, "The best gear should require skill to complete the hardest content," let's remember Slimecraw was recently the meta monster set.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

Quite honestly, if there actually are enough folks who would rather be handed stuff rather than earn it, ZOS should just spin up a permanent PTS type server for those folks to play on. Meanwhile, leaving the regular servers/game as is... and letting those of us who enjoy actually working towards and earning stuff alone. The whole world really doesn't need to be reduced to the lowest common denominator, it sucks the fun right out of it for many (most?) of us.

Because buying them from an NPC using points doing an entirely unrelated activity you'd be doing anyway is such an monumental task.

Again, we don't feel the same. You get enjoyment based off what other people don't have and not merely from the satisfaction of being better than most. It's not enough you have better, you want to win it all. I don't feel the same. I get satisfaction based off what I did or couldn't do. So beating vet and getting something exclusive is enough for me regardless if an inferior version is found elsewhere.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

The entire point of a MMO is to earn stuff, become more powerful, and earn better stuff, rinse and repeat... it is what keeps people playing for years. If you just keep making earning those things easier and easier, there is no sense of achievement anymore, and the game is no longer worth playing.

If getting better stuff in vet is enough to make the game not worth playing for you, IDK what to tell you. Perfected versions of things are superior to normal, and I get that satisfaction from having perfected gear just fine. One of my personal favorite stickers is the ones I have from vet arena and the VKA.

As I mentioned previously and you kind of make my point. You feel a sense of achievement over beating it on vet, just like everyone prior to the arena changes felt for having it at all. I however felt no sense of achievement at all for earning any of my arena weapons under the new system, it was simply a 45 minute chore I did to complete a build and I stopped the second the weapon I wanted dropped. I would honestly feel better if they never changed them and I went without... or maybe decided to one day suck it up and do it on vet to actually earn it.

It isn't about getting better stuff on vet. It is about feeling good about earning / achieving something at all, which doesn't happen when they pretty much hand it to you for simply showing up.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Quite honestly, if there actually are enough folks who would rather be handed stuff rather than earn it, ZOS should just spin up a permanent PTS type server for those folks to play on. Meanwhile, leaving the regular servers/game as is... and letting those of us who enjoy actually working towards and earning stuff alone. The whole world really doesn't need to be reduced to the lowest common denominator, it sucks the fun right out of it for many (most?) of us.

Because buying them from an NPC using points doing an entirely unrelated activity you'd be doing anyway is such an monumental task.

Again, we don't feel the same. You get enjoyment based off what other people don't have and not merely from the satisfaction of being better than most. It's not enough you have better, you want to win it all. I don't feel the same. I get satisfaction based off what I did or couldn't do. So beating vet and getting something exclusive is enough for me regardless if an inferior version is found elsewhere.

You are completely off the mark about me. I enjoy having things out there to earn, even if I never will. I don't feel like I should have things I didn't earn, or the game should be made easier for me so I can "catch'em all". I have exactly ZERO pieces of perfected gear, because I chose to not do the content it drops in. It is a choice I made and I can accept others will have stuff I don't... just like real life, where I don't own a mansion or drive a Ferrari, or even think Ferrari should sell a $20k version of their vehicle just so I can have one too.

Along that same line, there are a great many monster sets that have never been and probably never will be available on The Golden. Which basically means I will either never have those sets, or I will have to go do a vet dungeon to get get them. Either way, I am fine with that, although it would be nice if they actually did put them on the golden at some point. However, ZOS doesn't "need" to change anything to make it easier for me to get them, if they never appear there so be it, I will probably just go without.

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

EDIT: Serious question... are there really that many players out there running around who can never earn a monster set that this is even a thing? I ask because it is pretty much the first thing most of my guildies do the second they hit CP160, if they haven't already gotten some by then.

Also, go read the OP again. He isn't even saying he can't do the content, he simply says he doesn't like doing it. But as opposed to myself, who also doesn't like doing that content, he thinks he should be able to get the rewards for not doing it. He even makes numerous false statements, like "SO player can improve their gear accordingly.", which they can in a normal dungeon, that's why the gear sets only available in that dungeon drop on normal. Also "Stop gating ppl from getting gear which has no equivalent substitution." which is blatantly false, there are plenty of substitutions, and monster sets are by no means required gear for pretty much any content in ESO, they are simply nice to have and a lot of the builds the streamers put out there call for them, but even most of those offer alternatives to the monster sets. And of course "Game is for fun. Every time I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.", to which I can totally relate... the simple answer being, find another way to get the helm (The Golden), or simply do without... The manta here is "Play as you want"... no one is forced to do anything if they don't enjoy it... I most certainly don't.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Juomuuri

Base game monster sets can be used in vet content too, and vet base game dungeons are easy. I don't want to have some weird "perfected" monster set, since we already gotta gamble with the keys for the shoulders - imagine doing this with BOTH "normal" and "perfected" shoulders - and how would that even work?

And yes, veteran rewards should stay veteran, they're like that for a reason. Just find a guild that has friendly people who are happy to help with monster helm runs.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead. I can't see anything in what he said that would lead anyone to think he would ever do it on vet, if given the choice to get a helm on normal.

And if you read what I had said above, go ahead and add perfected, on vet hard mode, just leave the regular helm on vet. There is no reason to keep removing challenges from the game, just because someone doesn't enjoy doing that content to earn the associated reward. Everyone isn't meant to have everything, it is a simple fact of every MMORPG ever made. There was a time way back when, when I could dedicate 8 hours straight to go raid with 60 of my closest friends to get gear, and did it quite often. Should all of that stuff be made easier to get as well... just because my schedule & motivation to take on that content waned?

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

Dude, I am about the least elite player I know, I just enjoy a game that gives a challenge and things to work towards, not one that hands you everything on a silver platter.

BTW, this was the statement he bolded...
Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

Also, you confused me with Perfected gear being the new standard. Did I miss something, are there perfected versions of gear dropping in dungeons now that I somehow missed being implemented?

AuraStorm43

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

No.

You have to have progression in a game. This is not about participation trophies, where a lot of posters seem to want to go with it.

Normal > Perfected is progression

Again i’m asking, what dungeon have you been unable to do via the activity finder?

I am able to do all dungeon activities and am not the author of this thread. It's not a matter of what I can or cannot do.

Normal > Perfected is simply objectively a progression of gear.

The problem is you’d have to change how the shoulders work and i’m not refarming shoulders with how [snip] the RNG is

mickeyx wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Vet rewards should be earned through vet difficulty.

There is no gear / class / skill restriction to do vet dungeons, and if you're not wanting to play vet content anyways, then there's little to no need for monster gear.

You mean like ring of pale order. The single most op item in the game? Lol 🤣

The item that prevents healing? Yeah thats been dead in group content for awhile now

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

I mean my pvp peeps and i cleared vet the dread cellar no problem, i’m the only one who’s really tanked harder content and it was fine

Its part of the game, if you wanna have an optimized build you gotta play all parts of the game

[edited for profanity bypass]

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

Dude, I am about the least elite player I know, I just enjoy a game that gives a challenge and things to work towards, not one that hands you everything on a silver platter.

BTW, this was the statement he bolded...
Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

Also, you confused me with Perfected gear being the new standard. Did I miss something, are there perfected versions of gear dropping in dungeons now that I somehow missed being implemented?

In trials and arenas it's the standard now, and he's just asking for the main vet thing from dungeons to be added to that system too. Sorry that wasn't clear.

And for me elitism is a philosophy or mindset, more so than a type of player. It's the idea that only elite should dominate everything, and people playing on say a less difficult setting are undeserving, looking for handouts, etc.

I generally observe that philosophy from elites, but sometimes people who aren't elites still have that mindset just because they feel that it's the way things "ought" to be.

Myself, I do think that effort should be rewarded. But I don't think elites should dominate games to the point where others can't get nice things or work out builds etc. So there should be a gap, but they shouldn't totally dominate.

So for me, the idea of normal vs perfected gear is a great solution. Perfected gear is objectively superior to it's normal counterparts, period. But it doesn't create a gear gap where it dominates and nobody is able to have anything like it. You aren't unable to complete builds because "that's for the elites," or whatever. I especially feel that way about the PVP element of the game, as I don't think being good at PVE should have such a massive impact on your ability to PVP. I don't even PVP. But to me the best PVP'ers will be the ones who have the best reaction times, reflexes, strategy, speed, etc.

And the golden is already in the game to address that. But it doesn't do the best job of it.

For one, running normal dungeons would be more effort than just buying from an NPC. But beyond that, the golden's gear is random which makes it horrendous for getting what you need.

spartaxoxo

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

The problem is you’d have to change how the shoulders work and i’m not refarming shoulders with how [snip] the RNG is

I do think however they did it should not include refarming anything.

It could be something like the perfected helmet counts as 2 pieces, and the "3" piece bonus is something like extra mag or stam or whatever. This way they can leave the shoulders the way they are.

They should also automatically upgrade the helms of anyone who owns them already.

If we had to refarm anything, I wouldn't support the idea. My support is conditional on those who already did the dungeons having that playtime respected.

[edited to remove quote]

AuraStorm43

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

The problem is you’d have to change how the shoulders work and i’m not refarming shoulders with how [snip] the RNG is

I do think however they did it should not include refarming anything.

It could be something like the perfected helmet counts as 2 pieces, and the "3" piece bonus is something like extra mag or stam or whatever. This way they can leave the shoulders the way they are.

They should also automatically upgrade the helms of anyone who owns them already.

If we had to refarm anything, I wouldn't support the idea. My support is conditional on those who already did the dungeons having that playtime respected.

We know they won’t auto upgrade anything, they didn’t for old arena weapons

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

The problem is you’d have to change how the shoulders work and i’m not refarming shoulders with how [snip] the RNG is

I do think however they did it should not include refarming anything.

It could be something like the perfected helmet counts as 2 pieces, and the "3" piece bonus is something like extra mag or stam or whatever. This way they can leave the shoulders the way they are.

They should also automatically upgrade the helms of anyone who owns them already.

If we had to refarm anything, I wouldn't support the idea. My support is conditional on those who already did the dungeons having that playtime respected.

We know they won’t auto upgrade anything, they didn’t for old arena weapons

They got so much heat for that, the guy who did it asked us to direct it all towards him and make a giant admission about how it was all his decision. I feel like they maybe wouldn't do the same thing again. It went over like a lead balloon last time.

Anyway, auto-upgrading is what I feel they should do very strongly. I can't support it if it involves refarming. That's just dramatically unfair to those who already did the content.

[edited to remove quote]

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

Dude, I am about the least elite player I know, I just enjoy a game that gives a challenge and things to work towards, not one that hands you everything on a silver platter.

BTW, this was the statement he bolded...
Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

Also, you confused me with Perfected gear being the new standard. Did I miss something, are there perfected versions of gear dropping in dungeons now that I somehow missed being implemented?

In trials and arenas it's the standard now, and he's just asking for the main vet thing from dungeons to be added to that system too. Sorry that wasn't clear.

And for me elitism is a philosophy or mindset, more so than a type of player. It's the idea that only elite should dominate everything, and people playing on say a less difficult setting are undeserving, looking for handouts, etc.

I generally observe that philosophy from elites, but sometimes people who aren't elites still have that mindset just because they feel that it's the way things "ought" to be.

Myself, I do think that effort should be rewarded. But I don't think elites should dominate games to the point where others can't get nice things or work out builds etc. So there should be a gap, but they shouldn't totally dominate.

So for me, the idea of normal vs perfected gear is a great solution. Perfected gear is objectively superior to it's normal counterparts, period. But it doesn't create a gear gap where it dominates and nobody is able to have anything like it. You aren't unable to complete builds because "that's for the elites," or whatever. I especially feel that way about the PVP element of the game, as I don't think being good at PVE should have such a massive impact on your ability to PVP. I don't even PVP. But to me the best PVP'ers will be the ones who have the best reaction times, reflexes, strategy, speed, etc.

And the golden is already in the game to address that. But it doesn't do the best job of it.

For one, running normal dungeons would be more effort than just buying from an NPC. But beyond that, the golden's gear is random which makes it horrendous for getting what you need.

All good, and see, there are many points we actually agree on. I see our main disagreement being about at which point what I like to call "end game" gear becomes available... and I just do not feel a normal dungeon, most of which can be soloed by a great many players, is the place to start. This isn't "the man keeping me down", it is simply risk vs reward, and the reward being a monster helm, being kind of huge for what constitutes the very little risk at all... that a normal dungeon offers.

As for the golden, she is far from helpful. It has taken me years to collect what I believe is now every set in her current rotation, and I am still missing a great deal of some older desirable monster sets... Lord Warden, Molag Kena & Zaan come to mind, never mind all the newer sets over the past few years, that have never made an appearance. Luckily I PVP a lot, so I buy them for AP, not gold at least and can afford to buy all weights when a set I do not have appears..

And I have gone out in the past and collected many helms in vet dungeons. Yes, some were a complete bear, but my wife and close friends are pretty casual PVEers, so we tend to struggle a bit more than we would if we made a habit of running vet dungeons. It took my wife 47 tries to kill the boss to get her Zaan helm, and while it wasn't quite that bad for me, it was over 20 tries on the end boss. Neither of us feel that was over the top though, it was just a learning curve and when we finally got those helms, we were pretty proud of it and felt we really accomplished something. Was similar for Valkin Skoria when we first tried.... now we can blow through there in no time, it was a level up a bit more, get a better build and L2P that encounter.... just like the zoning screen suggests at. In both those and other cases, we would not have ever had the grand adventure or felt any sense of accomplishment, had we simply been able to walk in and get those items on normal.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Also, this thread wasn't about adding perfected gear, it was about making the game easier by dropping vet rewards on normal. If they choose to add a perfected version, it should drop on Hard Mode and the regular version stays on Vet.

Yes, it was. The thread suggestion was to place the monster helmets under the existing normal/perfected system. Where the current helmets drop on normal and a new perfected helm is dropped on vet.

Also, while I did think you personally wanted to win it all. I now see that you wanted someone else to win it all. That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the enjoyment comes not only from what you accomplished but what other people get too. You want winners to take all. So it should be helm vs no helm rather than best helm vs worse helm. I just don't share that philosophy. As long as vet is the superior rewards, it shouldn't mean to me that people who do normal are some scrubs looking for handouts. I don't subscribe to that mentality at all. I want the best rewards for vet to reward effort, but not for them to take literally everything. I don't need it or want it.

I don't think his thread is based on mostly falsehoods at all. He's conveying his experience, and his experience isn't negated by anyone else's.

A lot of PvPers ARE forced into PVP to make their gameplay functional. The golden predates the superior perfected/normal distribution system.

And I especially don't understand it in this case because these are literally items you can just buy from an NPC. It's not like he's asking for a godslayer title off normal or something.

Well then, you and I are interpreting the OP completely differently. Reading the thread title and the bolded statements he makes (obviously the bits he feels strongly about), he simply doesn't enjoy doing vet DLC content and finds it a chore, so feels he should get the rewards on normal instead.

danielpang32 wrote: »

Normal dungeons should drop monster helmet. And the veteran version will be title as "Prefect-".

SO player can improve their gear accordingly.[/b]

It's literally his first statement (emphasis mine). I don't seen any good reason why Monster Helmets that are normal and perfected should work differently than every other normal vs perfect piece of gear in the entire game.

The developers already understand that forcing people into difficult PVE for PVP gear is a bad idea, that's why we have the golden vendor.

Instead of applying "not everything is for everyone," to every situation regardless of how appropriate it is, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

In this case normal vs perfect gear is already the standard for all new items in the game, and this system has increased player participation in vet content. Increased the quality of vet content (because people who have no business being there have left the queue) and has absolutely nothing to diminish the status of perfected items.

In addition this is gear that is already "earned" just by walking up to an NPC and spending some coin you got doing crafting writs, a task so mindless it can be automated. Leaving the golden alone and doing this would actually INCREASE the exclusivity of perfected helmets to vet content.

Honestly the only reason not to do it is elitism, and I said I don't agree with that philosophy at all

Dude, I am about the least elite player I know, I just enjoy a game that gives a challenge and things to work towards, not one that hands you everything on a silver platter.

BTW, this was the statement he bolded...
Game is for fun. Everytime I finished a dlc vet dungeon. I dont feel a single sensation of joy and success. All I can feel is relieved and I dont want to play them again.

Also, you confused me with Perfected gear being the new standard. Did I miss something, are there perfected versions of gear dropping in dungeons now that I somehow missed being implemented?

In trials and arenas it's the standard now, and he's just asking for the main vet thing from dungeons to be added to that system too. Sorry that wasn't clear.

And for me elitism is a philosophy or mindset, more so than a type of player. It's the idea that only elite should dominate everything, and people playing on say a less difficult setting are undeserving, looking for handouts, etc.

I generally observe that philosophy from elites, but sometimes people who aren't elites still have that mindset just because they feel that it's the way things "ought" to be.

Myself, I do think that effort should be rewarded. But I don't think elites should dominate games to the point where others can't get nice things or work out builds etc. So there should be a gap, but they shouldn't totally dominate.

So for me, the idea of normal vs perfected gear is a great solution. Perfected gear is objectively superior to it's normal counterparts, period. But it doesn't create a gear gap where it dominates and nobody is able to have anything like it. You aren't unable to complete builds because "that's for the elites," or whatever. I especially feel that way about the PVP element of the game, as I don't think being good at PVE should have such a massive impact on your ability to PVP. I don't even PVP. But to me the best PVP'ers will be the ones who have the best reaction times, reflexes, strategy, speed, etc.

And the golden is already in the game to address that. But it doesn't do the best job of it.

For one, running normal dungeons would be more effort than just buying from an NPC. But beyond that, the golden's gear is random which makes it horrendous for getting what you need.

All good, and see, there are many points we actually agree on. I see our main disagreement being about at which point what I like to call "end game" gear becomes available... and I just do not feel a normal dungeon, most of which can be soloed by a great many players, is the place to start. This isn't "the man keeping me down", it is simply risk vs reward, and the reward being a monster helm, being kind of huge for what constitutes the very little risk at all... that a normal dungeon offers.

As for the golden, she is far from helpful. It has taken me years to collect what I believe is now every set in her current rotation, and I am still missing a great deal of some older desirable monster sets... Lord Warden, Molag Kena & Zaan come to mind, never mind all the newer sets over the past few years, that have never made an appearance. Luckily I PVP a lot, so I buy them for AP, not gold at least and can afford to buy all weights when a set I do not have appears..

And I have gone out in the past and collected many helms in vet dungeons. Yes, some were a complete bear, but my wife and close friends are pretty casual PVEers, so we tend to struggle a bit more than we would if we made a habit of running vet dungeons. It took my wife 47 tries to kill the boss to get her Zaan helm, and while it wasn't quite that bad for me, it was over 20 tries on the end boss. Neither of us feel that was over the top though, it was just a learning curve and when we finally got those helms, we were pretty proud of it and felt we really accomplished something. Was similar for Valkin Skoria when we first tried.... now we can blow through there in no time, it was a level up a bit more, get a better build and L2P that encounter.... just like the zoning screen suggests at. In both those and other cases, we would not have ever had the grand adventure or felt any sense of accomplishment, had we simply been able to walk in and get those items on normal.

The golden being far from helpful is precisely why I support this idea. It just seems like something that you can get from doing crafting writs is already not that big of a deal. I have bought off-weights on boring dungeons before just to get it over with. It was meh. I also do have perfected pieces, and having something from normal doesn't feel accomplished. But getting those perfected pieces do. I never even finished VKA due to infighting. But every once in a while, I'll just look at the perfected pieces I do have from there and smile. And that's in no way diminished even a little by having the normal pieces. Because I was hitting enough damage to win, and it not working out had nothing to do with my gameplay. That's like a good feeling to me, IDK.

To me it's like to use an analogy....

We can both have cars, but I got a Lambo. And nothing your midpriced sedan can feature could ever diminish the excitement of a lambo. So if they want to give you heated seats or whatever, I really don't give a care. And I see not getting an inferior helms from normal kinda like being forced onto public transit and not allowed a car at all, because "people worked really hard for that Lambo." Like bruh, ya'll can have cars. I don't care. Vroom Vroom. You know? It won't take nothing from Lambo, and we all know my car is better. And that's frankly more than enough reward.

Perfected vs Normal Gear is kinda like that to me. Like the fact that it's perfected and you could only get that from Vet is more than enough for me. The progression is there. I get rewarded from my effort. I don't need unique mechanics all to myself. I just need a little something something to make it feel rewarding to do it on a harder mode that I can look back at and smile. That's it. That's all I need. Beating the content itself is what makes it feel so good, not having some unique mechanic that only I got.

edit:

Also grats on the ZAAN! That's awesome!