Tanks. Tanks everywhere.

DrSlaughtr

All hail the tank meta, for it has made its glorious return! TTK like molasses! 😒😒😒 This will be an interesting 3 months.

KhajiitLivesMatter

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

DrSlaughtr

When TTK is too high, people get quickly annoyed and bored fighting near immortal tanks. This leads to drop in population.

Tank Meta is bad. Earlier this year they adjusted things because people were tired off of it. Now they've brought it back.

You're honestly the first person I've seen argue that high ttk is a positive thing.

xylena_lazarow

High TTK -> players need to stack to kill anything -> more lag and fewer fights on the map

KhajiitLivesMatter

TheEndBringer wrote: »

When TTK is too high, people get quickly annoyed and bored fighting near immortal tanks. This leads to drop in population.

Tank Meta is bad. Earlier this year they adjusted things because people were tired off of it. Now they've brought it back.

You're honestly the first person I've seen argue that high ttk is a positive thing.

i didnt say its good - i just say it isnt bad

cause imagine a glass canon meta everyone will be dead in less than 1 sec thats bad to
imangine a heal meta which basicly would be the same as a tank meta

i just say that u cant fix a problem with the meta cause if u do there will just be a new problem equally bad

DrSlaughtr

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

When TTK is too high, people get quickly annoyed and bored fighting near immortal tanks. This leads to drop in population.

Tank Meta is bad. Earlier this year they adjusted things because people were tired off of it. Now they've brought it back.

You're honestly the first person I've seen argue that high ttk is a positive thing.

i didnt say its good - i just say it isnt bad

cause imagine a glass canon meta everyone will be dead in less than 1 sec thats bad to
imangine a heal meta which basicly would be the same as a tank meta

i just say that u cant fix a problem with the meta cause if u do there will just be a new problem equally bad

Just because you decrease the damage output of someone with 32k health and 33k armor doesn't mean you kill tanks. It just means you have to run at least one damage set if you want to kill people, unlike now where you don't. Or you can be a tank and serve that roll which is very useful.

Two patches who we had very good balance. Then they killed crit over the last two updates. Crit was how you nullified a tank like that.

Last night for example, every EP group was infinite block tanks waiting for ulti. 10 minute combats where all you hear is clang clang clang. it gets boring real fast, whether you win or not.

Nevidyra

TTK isn't high at all. The average player will fall over if you breathe on them with a good build. 1vX is possible again, and the people who build for it are able to be killed. They're not tanks. They can 100-0 you in the blink of an eye.

There's far too many blocktanks abusing Battalion Defender, especially on EP. They're not 1vXers. They can't kill anything. They exist to make it impossible for people to PvP normally. Batallion Defender needs a nerf at this point; it's becoming a real localized endemic in Cyrodiil.

neferpitou73

In Ravenwatch it's particularly bad because ZOS allowed a certain proc set to work in Ravenwatch without any counters...

Urzigurumash

Queue up for Solo Death Match with a pure melee, non-Vamp, no defensive set build until you get a match with 0 Healers. TTK is really short under these conditions, shorter than usual, so it might shed some light on what exactly drives any current tank meta, or excessive TTK, in Cyro.

EmperorIl

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

It is a bad thing because it has created this dumb meta where everyone just heals and ult dumps. Deathmatch battlegrounds should not time out where no one has over 300 points. It's dumb. Any meta like this is dumb whether it be invincible tnaks, heals, or extreme dps. We need balance, not metas. This is the only PvP I have ever played that requires you to change your gameplay 180% every patch. Other MMOs you adjust your spec some, in ESO you have to become a completely different class every patch and it's stupid.

EmperorIl

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Queue up for Solo Death Match with a pure melee, non-Vamp, no defensive set build until you get a match with 0 Healers. TTK is really short under these conditions, shorter than usual, so it might shed some light on what exactly drives any current tank meta, or excessive TTK, in Cyro.

I have had two deathmatches in the past two days where no team got over 300 points before running out of time.

NerfSeige

EmperorIl wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

It is a bad thing because it has created this dumb meta where everyone just heals and ult dumps. Deathmatch battlegrounds should not time out where no one has over 300 points. It's dumb. Any meta like this is dumb whether it be invincible tnaks, heals, or extreme dps. We need balance, not metas. This is the only PvP I have ever played that requires you to change your gameplay 180% every patch. Other MMOs you adjust your spec some, in ESO you have to become a completely different class every patch and it's stupid.

Lmao, I was thinking about this too. This patch is like the most number of time-out matches i got on BGs

KhajiitLivesMatter

to any zos member reading this , this is my honest opnionen and neither intended as bait or troll

EmperorIl wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

It is a bad thing because it has created this dumb meta where everyone just heals and ult dumps. Deathmatch battlegrounds should not time out where no one has over 300 points. It's dumb. Any meta like this is dumb whether it be invincible tnaks, heals, or extreme dps. We need balance, not metas. This is the only PvP I have ever played that requires you to change your gameplay 180% every patch. Other MMOs you adjust your spec some, in ESO you have to become a completely different class every patch and it's stupid.

"we dont need metas"
yea maybe we dont but u cant stop a meta

its impossible for eso to receive a balance u want cause that would require that no new contant / class /set will be aviable every patch
its not possible to fix old problems and introduce new stuff at the same time atleast not for zos

KhajiitLivesMatter

to any zos member reading this , this is my honest opnionen and neither intended as bait or troll

EmperorIl wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Queue up for Solo Death Match with a pure melee, non-Vamp, no defensive set build until you get a match with 0 Healers. TTK is really short under these conditions, shorter than usual, so it might shed some light on what exactly drives any current tank meta, or excessive TTK, in Cyro.

I have had two deathmatches in the past two days where no team got over 300 points before running out of time.

last week i did about 15 deathmatch with my healer 1 of them ran out of time with a score like 450 465 and 510

DrSlaughtr

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Urzigurumash

EmperorIl wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Queue up for Solo Death Match with a pure melee, non-Vamp, no defensive set build until you get a match with 0 Healers. TTK is really short under these conditions, shorter than usual, so it might shed some light on what exactly drives any current tank meta, or excessive TTK, in Cyro.

I have had two deathmatches in the past two days where no team got over 300 points before running out of time.

I've had lots of time-outs too, and I assure you the conditions I described were not satisfied, because they hardly ever are. Everybody's playing tanky with cross-heals. Cross-healing is netting larger Healing Sums than ever before, I think.

My point was what's extending TTK in an unusual way seems to be Percentile Mitigations and Offensive Stat-scaled Heals - not some of the things which have driven "tank metas" in the past. If damage output were increased, it might only further narrow the meta to Defensive Set, Vamp 3, turtle/kite/heal until Ult. Some other sort of adjustment is needed. I'm not saying I know what it is, and I agree with most every other point made in this thread, but we don't need Ults landing for 40k to fix the problem.

There was a time when Vamp was a distinct choice, one could consistently perform well as melee in all offensive sets, and teams without a healer could outscore teams with a healer. Do what I said if you can stand the torment and see how many situations you escape at execute HP compared to the past.

DrSlaughtr

The issue is we can't just blanket decrease damage because we stay where we are. Tanks either need to be forced to do less damage, either tied to health or armor, OR we need a counter to them as is.

We used to have that. NBs were able to attack on from shadow, cc, and burst hard enough to kill them before they could break free, perma block and heal. Or get them down enough the 5 people being dragged along could finish the target off.

The only way to kill a 33k health, 33k armor DK or Necro is to do enough damage in 3 seconds so they can't recover. If they do, they block, heal to full, and ultimate dump for the win. There's only one class that is capable of that and right now NBs are not as affective because of the changes to crit.

Horthgar was supposed to be a set to counter this stuff but people objected to having their tanks blow up.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The issue is we can't just blanket decrease damage because we stay where we are. Tanks either need to be forced to do less damage, either tied to health or armor, OR we need a counter to them as is.

We used to have that. NBs were able to attack on from shadow, cc, and burst hard enough to kill them before they could break free, perma block and heal. Or get them down enough the 5 people being dragged along could finish the target off.

The only way to kill a 33k health, 33k armor DK or Necro is to do enough damage in 3 seconds so they can't recover. If they do, they block, heal to full, and ultimate dump for the win. There's only one class that is capable of that and right now NBs are not as affective because of the changes to crit.

Horthgar was supposed to be a set to counter this stuff but people objected to having their tanks blow up.

Hrothgar failed to target non-Armor Percentile Mitigations though, and also there was simply nothing remotely skillful about it for how much damage it dealt. If it had maybe just one more condition it would've worked out better at its original values.

My point in bringing up that TTK is quite low when you play without a Healer, Cross-healing, or Percentile Mitigations wasn't that I think damage should be reduced. My point was simply that you get much more reward for an investment in Percentile Mitigation than you do for an equivalent investment in further Weapon/Spell Damage.

Honestly I haven't spent much time in GH this patch, mostly been in BGs. At some point it seems to me a different Battlespirit for the different PvP formats would be reasonable.

Urzigurumash

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

I agree - to the extent that I (personally) find Class Balance to be improving every patch since the Crimson+Syvarra StamDen meta, and the flow of combat to be much more enjoyable every patch since what was probably the longest TTK in history, right before Greymoor. I consider Class Balance to be the most important part of balance for a variety of reasons.

Maybe nothing will ever be perfect and nobody will ever be equally satisfied, but, the point of these discussions is of course the endless pursuit of perfection.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The issue is we can't just blanket decrease damage because we stay where we are. Tanks either need to be forced to do less damage, either tied to health or armor, OR we need a counter to them as is.

We used to have that. NBs were able to attack on from shadow, cc, and burst hard enough to kill them before they could break free, perma block and heal. Or get them down enough the 5 people being dragged along could finish the target off.

The only way to kill a 33k health, 33k armor DK or Necro is to do enough damage in 3 seconds so they can't recover. If they do, they block, heal to full, and ultimate dump for the win. There's only one class that is capable of that and right now NBs are not as affective because of the changes to crit.

Horthgar was supposed to be a set to counter this stuff but people objected to having their tanks blow up.

Hrothgar failed to target non-Armor Percentile Mitigations though, and also there was simply nothing remotely skillful about it for how much damage it dealt. If it had maybe just one more condition it would've worked out better at its original values.

My point in bringing up that TTK is quite low when you play without a Healer, Cross-healing, or Percentile Mitigations wasn't that I think damage should be reduced. My point was simply that you get much more reward for an investment in Percentile Mitigation than you do for an equivalent investment in further Weapon/Spell Damage.

Honestly I haven't spent much time in GH this patch, mostly been in BGs. At some point it seems to me a different Battlespirit for the different PvP formats would be reasonable.

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Urzigurumash wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

so u let it sound like a tank meta is something bad

than a heal meta is bad to ?
or a dmg/glass canon meta?

there is always a meta cause its impossible to be 2+/0 metas
meta=most effiecent tactik avilable

cause if u nerf tank than the next thing will be better again its useless to blame zos for a meta existing they cant prevent it u should only call for changes if its absolutly unplayble and would take 60min for 1 player to die

otherwise just deal with it

I agree - to the extent that I (personally) find Class Balance to be improving every patch since the Crimson+Syvarra StamDen meta, and the flow of combat to be much more enjoyable every patch since what was probably the longest TTK in history, right before Greymoor. I consider Class Balance to be the most important part of balance for a variety of reasons.

Maybe nothing will ever be perfect and nobody will ever be equally satisfied, but, the point of these discussions is of course the endless pursuit of perfection.

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

"discussions is of course the endless pursuit of perfection."
to reach that u NEED to stop adding new content so frequently if u add new content while the old isnt even fine it only gets worse
the problem is some people hate the update cycle being that often recently a few of my pvp mates even quit cause they didnt wanna update there built EVERYTIMe a new patch hits

KhajiitLivesMatter

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

TheEndBringer wrote:

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

honestly i dont agree with plague being fine
i play a warden = i have auto purge every 5sec without doing anything

and getting hit by 30k (3 10k hits - in about 2sec) is just not fun and feels competly op

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The issue is we can't just blanket decrease damage because we stay where we are. Tanks either need to be forced to do less damage, either tied to health or armor, OR we need a counter to them as is.

We used to have that. NBs were able to attack on from shadow, cc, and burst hard enough to kill them before they could break free, perma block and heal. Or get them down enough the 5 people being dragged along could finish the target off.

The only way to kill a 33k health, 33k armor DK or Necro is to do enough damage in 3 seconds so they can't recover. If they do, they block, heal to full, and ultimate dump for the win. There's only one class that is capable of that and right now NBs are not as affective because of the changes to crit.

Horthgar was supposed to be a set to counter this stuff but people objected to having their tanks blow up.

Hrothgar failed to target non-Armor Percentile Mitigations though, and also there was simply nothing remotely skillful about it for how much damage it dealt. If it had maybe just one more condition it would've worked out better at its original values.

My point in bringing up that TTK is quite low when you play without a Healer, Cross-healing, or Percentile Mitigations wasn't that I think damage should be reduced. My point was simply that you get much more reward for an investment in Percentile Mitigation than you do for an equivalent investment in further Weapon/Spell Damage.

Honestly I haven't spent much time in GH this patch, mostly been in BGs. At some point it seems to me a different Battlespirit for the different PvP formats would be reasonable.

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

Of course. I only meant that maybe playing in a non comp situation with an obviously off-meta build can help to isolate the cause of what you described in your first post. Also I'm an Orc so Heavy Armor and Orzorga's foods are to be venerated.

Urzigurumash

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

TheEndBringer wrote:

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

honestly i dont agree with plague being fine
i play a warden = i have auto purge every 5sec without doing anything

and getting hit by 30k (3 10k hits - in about 2sec) is just not fun and feels competly op

Yeah, they should just take the purge off Netch. Maybe there wouldn't've even been a demand for Plague in the first place if it had never gotten it. But, since I talked about Class Balance - welcome to the club where Rally outperforms your Class source of Brutality.

DrSlaughtr

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

TheEndBringer wrote:

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

honestly i dont agree with plague being fine
i play a warden = i have auto purge every 5sec without doing anything

and getting hit by 30k (3 10k hits - in about 2sec) is just not fun and feels competly op

I get it but you choose to run netch. A templar chooses to run ritual. Every other player chooses to run purge. It sucks though for you because the other effects of netch are very useful.

People have been calling for the cleanse removed for years.

Urzigurumash

My point was also that you'd better off in my hypothetical there with Percentile Mitigations and multiple offensive stat-scaled self-heals than you would be simply stacking Health, Armor, and holding block. Look at this graph @SkaraMinoc made:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7452535/#Comment_7452535

KhajiitLivesMatter

TheEndBringer wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

to any zos member reading this, this is my honest opnionen and neither intented as bait or troll

TheEndBringer wrote:

Hrothgar wasn't perfect and I don't like it or DC (plague is okay). But I was just saying the one set they introduced to be the stick for DDs pushing defense. Then they nerfed it into oblivion rather than adjust it.

To your point about healers, yes. Any organized group or comp group is going to have an advantage in all pvp formats (especially BGs.)

The issue is if you balance for non comp groups, then comp groups become invincible. Every update to Cyrodiil has to balance based on organized and comp groups. I'm less concerned about cross healing as I am about hot stacking.

honestly i dont agree with plague being fine
i play a warden = i have auto purge every 5sec without doing anything

and getting hit by 30k (3 10k hits - in about 2sec) is just not fun and feels competly op

I get it but you choose to run netch. A templar chooses to run ritual. Every other player chooses to run purge. It sucks though for you because the other effects of netch are very useful.

People have been calling for the cleanse removed for years.

honestly the purge is great and never heared someone saying it should be gone... atkeast so far

i would be fine with removing it if there is something else in replacement maybe the minor mag/stam reg or something like that

neferpitou73

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Precisely what happened. I remember all the "bombers are too OP" whining on the forums during MYM (made of course by people who've never even attempted to play one). For some reason ZOS decided to base all of their combat changes based on this feedback than on the feedback long-time pvpers had been giving them for months.

I'll disagree with you on the crit damage tho. That needed to happen as a nerf to ball groups but it certainly hasn't helped things with the tank meta.

KhajiitLivesMatter

neferpitou73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Precisely what happened. I remember all the "bombers are too OP" whining on the forums during MYM (made of course by people who've never even attempted to play one). For some reason ZOS decided to base all of their combat changes based on this feedback than on the feedback long-time pvpers had been giving them for months.

I'll disagree with you on the crit damage tho. That needed to happen as a nerf to ball groups but it certainly hasn't helped things with the tank meta.

the cap is at 125% which is insanly high for pvp i dont expect that any/many ball groups where at that point cause they would either need to be all nb or wearing 2 crit sets which as far as i know was not what they did

Brrrofski

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Precisely what happened. I remember all the "bombers are too OP" whining on the forums during MYM (made of course by people who've never even attempted to play one). For some reason ZOS decided to base all of their combat changes based on this feedback than on the feedback long-time pvpers had been giving them for months.

I'll disagree with you on the crit damage tho. That needed to happen as a nerf to ball groups but it certainly hasn't helped things with the tank meta.

the cap is at 125% which is insanly high for pvp i dont expect that any/many ball groups where at that point cause they would either need to be all nb or wearing 2 crit sets which as far as i know was not what they did

Yeh, I don't think the crit damage cap touches PvP unless you have like a super dedicated build to it. Which most don't.

martinhpb16_ESO

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Its just Necros and DKs everywhere, boring as hell tank meta yet again.....sigh