Tanks. Tanks everywhere.

neferpitou73

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes obviously there will always be a meta, and from patch to patch this changes but this is where it gets frustrating.

We literally just went through this 6-9 months ago. The forums were filled with topics just like this. Eventually zos listened and adjusted things and for a few patches we had pretty good balance.

What happened?

Last MYM, the forum was flooded with complaints from casual players who barely pvp that were upset about dying to experienced players. It was determined TTK was too low and ZOS began making changes to benefit easy mode build where you're just surviving until you get ultimate, then dump and wipe groups.

Killed crit %. Killed crit damage. Gave away multiple no cost sources of major protection. Stage 3 vampire is too strong with little drawback. Added a set that made one skill tank builds even better (dark convergence). Nerfed the only set in the game to punish high armor builds (hrothgar.) Buffed the two tankiest classes (dk and necro) without offering any counter.

So now we gotta suffer through this again until the forum fills up with enough complaints to force them to walk it back.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Precisely what happened. I remember all the "bombers are too OP" whining on the forums during MYM (made of course by people who've never even attempted to play one). For some reason ZOS decided to base all of their combat changes based on this feedback than on the feedback long-time pvpers had been giving them for months.

I'll disagree with you on the crit damage tho. That needed to happen as a nerf to ball groups but it certainly hasn't helped things with the tank meta.

the cap is at 125% which is insanly high for pvp i dont expect that any/many ball groups where at that point cause they would either need to be all nb or wearing 2 crit sets which as far as i know was not what they did

I did the detailed analysis a while ago but the sources you can get in a ball group were:

Major force
minor force
Khajiit
Nightblade
Minor brittle
Shadow

among others (think I'm missing a few)

I believe their crit capped out around 140% or so (that number sticks in my head for some reason although I can't remember where I got it) If not it was close to the current cap. You didn't need to worry about crit chance because of mech acuity. Balorgh just sealed the deal with the extra damage and pen and of course to be more insane you could just run harmony jewelry and rotate 20k barriers for defense.

Urzigurumash

Templars and DKs were told for years to think of ways to buff their own class without calling for nerfs to Sorcs and NBs

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Templars and DKs were told for years to think of ways to buff their own class without calling for nerfs to Sorcs and NBs

I didn't call for a nerf of either. My suggestion is a nerf to tanks. Every class in this game can compete as a DD without also being padded in health and armor. 3 classes right now are able to do both because of battle spirit changes, sources of major protection, and levels of mitigation afforded through acting and passive skills.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Templars and DKs were told for years to think of ways to buff their own class without calling for nerfs to Sorcs and NBs

I didn't call for a nerf of either. My suggestion is a nerf to tanks. Every class in this game can compete as a DD without also being padded in health and armor. 3 classes right now are able to do both because of battle spirit changes, sources of major protection, and levels of mitigation afforded through acting and passive skills.

A nerf to what appears to be a tank in the eyes of an NB is a nerf to DKs. Flat out. That's because the class has:

- No stealth
- No escape
- All melee skills
- No unique class bonus to Crit Percent or Damage

If a 2h and a Bow user are both optimized to operate at the exact same HP and Armor - why would we play 2h?

Your last sentence is accurate, I agree completely. The difference in base mitigation of Heavy Armor vs Medium/Light is not the culprit.

DK and NB should never be optimized to play in the same gear, with the same non-class skills, and the same playstyle.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Templars and DKs were told for years to think of ways to buff their own class without calling for nerfs to Sorcs and NBs

I didn't call for a nerf of either. My suggestion is a nerf to tanks. Every class in this game can compete as a DD without also being padded in health and armor. 3 classes right now are able to do both because of battle spirit changes, sources of major protection, and levels of mitigation afforded through acting and passive skills.

A nerf to what appears to be a tank in the eyes of an NB is a nerf to DKs. Flat out. That's because the class has:

- No stealth
- No escape
- All melee skills
- No unique class bonus to Crit Percent or Damage

If a 2h and a Bow user are both optimized to operate at the exact same HP and Armor - why would we play 2h?

Your last sentence is accurate, I agree completely. The difference in base mitigation of Heavy Armor vs Medium/Light is not the culprit.

DK and NB should never be optimized to play in the same gear, with the same non-class skills, and the same playstyle.

Again I never said that.

The set options right now are greater than ever. My DK would never run what my NB is running so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Respectfully, all I said was going above a certain level of health + armor should have drawbacks and I don't see who that's controversial. Let's be real. People run DKs all the time. Before, during and after this patch. Same goes for every class. The issue is that every patch there are two or so builds that become so easy that the masses flock to them for easy griefing and AP.

Then, when changes are made in attempts to level the playing field, those builds become just a little harder and the easy mode players move on to something else.

I really don't care whether it's DKs, necros, templars, etc. Tanks shouldn't get to push 60k+ health+armor while still mopping up everyone else.

neferpitou73

Just nerf heavy armor by adding more drawbacks (you shouldn't be able to run around in Pariah and 2-shot people)

Urzigurumash

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Just nerf heavy armor by adding more drawbacks (you shouldn't be able to run around in Pariah and 2-shot people)

Interestingly I'm sitting at 28k Health, 28k Stam, 28k Resists, and 6k Weapon Damage in 3 Heavy, 4 Medium

For years Pariah was more popular as Weapons and Jewels with Light Armor than body pieces in Heavy.

So, what changed?

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I really don't care whether it's DKs, necros, templars, etc. Tanks shouldn't get to push 60k+ health+armor while still mopping up everyone else.

My view of balance is only DKs are allowed to run at 60k combined - only NBs are allowed to have Uncapped Crit Damage.

That's not to everybody's taste but that's how I see it.

There might be less of a general tank meta if we had the New NB and New Sorc the way we've got New DK and New Templar in Warden and Necro.

neferpitou73

Urzigurumash wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Just nerf heavy armor by adding more drawbacks (you shouldn't be able to run around in Pariah and 2-shot people)

Interestingly I'm sitting at 28k Health, 28k Stam, 28k Resists, and 6k Weapon Damage in 3 Heavy, 4 Medium

For years Pariah was more popular as Weapons and Jewels with Light Armor than body pieces in Heavy.

So, what changed?

Actually fair point I think most people run it on jewelry. I'm just conflating pariah with general tank-ness because everyone runs it in the "no-proc" campaign