Maintenance for the week of December 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
Overland Content Feedback Thread
-
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »I’ll just add that the “One Tamriel” update, which launched 8 years ago, caused this whole situation in the first place. But it was still a fantastic patch despite ESO being considered too easy at the time.
The game was not too easy before One Tamriel. As Rich said: "ESO being too hard was what once pushed so many away." That is the reason I and many of my friends left.Edited by SilverBride on 2 September 2024 23:04PCNA4 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.Edited by SilverBride on 2 September 2024 23:06PCNA1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think they are saying that One Tamriel made the game too easy, not that it was too easy prior to it. Although, ease is subjective. So, if they found it too easy back then, then that is true for them.1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
Thankfully, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. We also see these comments in steam reviews, developer commentary about feedback they receive often, and on the forums, on Reddit, and on their social media.
So, clearly, this is not a small opinion. The devs have said the majority of their playerbase likes overland the way it is. And that's likely true. People are much less likely to leave comments if it's they like it just fine. But it's very clear that the number of people who find it too easy are not small. It's a large trend.
Large enough to be a part of multiple developer interviews. Large enough to be easy engagement for content creators. Large enough to be pretty much anywhere you see the game discussed.5 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Why would anyone make a video showing that they have no issue with anything?PCNA2 -
Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »I’ll just add that the “One Tamriel” update, which launched 8 years ago, caused this whole situation in the first place. But it was still a fantastic patch despite ESO being considered too easy at the time.
The game was not too easy before One Tamriel. As Rich said: "ESO being too hard was what once pushed so many away." That is the reason I and many of my friends left.
No you misunderstood, I didn’t say that. I said ESO was considered too easy after One Tamriel (not before).
That is why complaints about ESO being too easy began once One Tamriel launched. And the point of my post was to say that the intended difficulty in One Tamriel was far higher compared to how it is in 2024, due to 8 years of powercreep.1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that it's an actual plea to the devs citing personal anecdotes involving his own friends. It may have been released at an advantageous time, I'm not sure, but I think it could be argued that this position is kind of evergreen. Frankly, the opinion is so common I don't see it being all that worthwhile to create a video about if the object is to drive engagement.1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Why would anyone make a video showing that they have no issue with anything?
The opposing position being that overland is too hard. Jesus.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »I’ll just add that the “One Tamriel” update, which launched 8 years ago, caused this whole situation in the first place. But it was still a fantastic patch despite ESO being considered too easy at the time.
The game was not too easy before One Tamriel. As Rich said: "ESO being too hard was what once pushed so many away." That is the reason I and many of my friends left.
No you misunderstood, I didn’t say that. I said ESO was considered too easy after One Tamriel (not before).
That is why complaints about ESO being too easy began once One Tamriel launched. And the point of my post was to say that the intended difficulty in One Tamriel was far higher compared to how it is in 2024, due to 8 years of powercreep.
My apology.PCNA0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that it's an actual plea to the devs citing personal anecdotes involving his own friends. It may have been released at an advantageous time, I'm not sure, but I think it could be argued that this position is kind of evergreen. Frankly, the opinion is so common I don't see it being all that worthwhile to create a video about if the object is to drive engagement.
I see common opinions being parroted by streamers all the time. Sometimes, And I'm not saying it's happening here, they'll make a video with a different opinion. And then make a new one agreeing with their crowd when that one fails.1 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
Perhaps, but they aren't just whiney rants. They are well-spoken, and viewed by tens of thousands of people (more like hundreds of thousands).
And most of the comments in those videos are people agreeing with him and collecting likes.
Opinion, yes. But widely shared opinions by many, many people who are potential ESO+ subs and crown crate buyers, who will help prop up a game we all love.
You can't just brush off our opinion as "just opinion" if that opinion is shared by so many. And ZOS certainly can't afford to ignore it when the subscriptions of so many potential paying customers are at stake.6 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that it's an actual plea to the devs citing personal anecdotes involving his own friends. It may have been released at an advantageous time, I'm not sure, but I think it could be argued that this position is kind of evergreen. Frankly, the opinion is so common I don't see it being all that worthwhile to create a video about if the object is to drive engagement.
I see common opinions being parroted by streamers all the time. Sometimes, And I'm not saying it's happening here, they'll make a video with a different opinion. And then make a new one agreeing with their crowd when that one fails.
Think whatever you like, but the content of the video speaks for itself. Whether you think it's relevant to the conversation or not, if it's a trend to create content like this, it seems logical to me that there is actually a problem which needs to be addressed.1 -
Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »I’ll just add that the “One Tamriel” update, which launched 8 years ago, caused this whole situation in the first place. But it was still a fantastic patch despite ESO being considered too easy at the time.
The game was not too easy before One Tamriel. As Rich said: "ESO being too hard was what once pushed so many away." That is the reason I and many of my friends left.
No you misunderstood, I didn’t say that. I said ESO was considered too easy after One Tamriel (not before).
That is why complaints about ESO being too easy began once One Tamriel launched. And the point of my post was to say that the intended difficulty in One Tamriel was far higher compared to how it is in 2024, due to 8 years of powercreep.
My apology.
It’s ok!!
At the end of the day we just have different opinions here because we enjoy the game for slightly different reasons.
IMO the best games have always allowed players to choose difficulty. Either you do it directly through a Difficulty Slider (ex: Skyrim) or indirectly through playstyle/tactics choices (ex: Elden Ring). These games can be really easy, or really hard, and it’s up to the player to choose their ideal experience to have fun.
ESO Overland defaults to what is essentially a Novice difficulty setting in Skyrim, which is why a simple Difficulty Slider would likewise solve this issue by applying the difficulty through a powerful self-debuff. PvP has Battle Spirit to serve this exact purpose, so PvE can get it’s own equivalent version.
That’s my stance on this whole thing anyway! I want people to choose their difficulty so we all win (and don’t want to throw away ESO’s entire itemization and gameplay systems by playing a naked character to achieve it).Edited by Stafford197 on 3 September 2024 00:011 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that it's an actual plea to the devs citing personal anecdotes involving his own friends. It may have been released at an advantageous time, I'm not sure, but I think it could be argued that this position is kind of evergreen. Frankly, the opinion is so common I don't see it being all that worthwhile to create a video about if the object is to drive engagement.
I see common opinions being parroted by streamers all the time. Sometimes, And I'm not saying it's happening here, they'll make a video with a different opinion. And then make a new one agreeing with their crowd when that one fails.
Think whatever you like, but the content of the video speaks for itself. Whether you think it's relevant to the conversation or not, if it's a trend to create content like this, it seems logical to me that there is actually a problem which needs to be addressed.
I didn't say that it was irrelevant to the conversation. I said the opposite. That it's echoing something backed up all over the place.
0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
Perhaps, but they aren't just whiney rants. They are well-spoken, and viewed by tens of thousands of people (more like hundreds of thousands).
And most of the comments in those videos are people agreeing with him and collecting likes.
Opinion, yes. But widely shared opinions by many, many people who are potential ESO+ subs and crown crate buyers, who will help prop up a game we all love.
You can't just brush off our opinion as "just opinion" if that opinion is shared by so many. And ZOS certainly can't afford to ignore it when the subscriptions of so many potential paying customers are at stake.
This is why I say these streams are biased. Because they are being viewed by like minded players, so of course they are going to agree with them.PCNA1 -
Theist_VII✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here is the problem with a difficulty slider…
All a difficulty slider would do is increase the damage and health of enemies you’re fighting. What we need is a mechanical overhaul to pair with the increased damage and health. If an enemy has one or two attacks that are extremely predictable, simply increasing the time to kill them wont be enough.
For an enemy to present a challenge, they need to challenge the way you think.
While it would be fine to just increase the damage of wild animals, a quest boss should feel memorable.Edited by Theist_VII on 3 September 2024 01:001 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
Perhaps, but they aren't just whiney rants. They are well-spoken, and viewed by tens of thousands of people (more like hundreds of thousands).
And most of the comments in those videos are people agreeing with him and collecting likes.
Opinion, yes. But widely shared opinions by many, many people who are potential ESO+ subs and crown crate buyers, who will help prop up a game we all love.
You can't just brush off our opinion as "just opinion" if that opinion is shared by so many. And ZOS certainly can't afford to ignore it when the subscriptions of so many potential paying customers are at stake.
This is why I say these streams are biased. Because they are being viewed by like minded players, so of course they are going to agree with them.
True, in the same manner that your views that things are fine and shouldn't be changed are reinforced by being surrounded by friends and guildies who also think things are fine. Every time you echo the argument that you hear plenty of people think things are fine as is and are getting too hard, there are similar groups of people you don't personally know, never meet, who may well love the game just as much as you who feel differently.spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Streamers usually go along with trends for clicks. I don't think it's the most compelling evidence by itself.
Thankfully, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. We also see these comments in steam reviews, developer commentary about feedback they receive often, and on the forums, on Reddit, and on their social media.
So, clearly, this is not a small opinion. The devs have said the majority of their playerbase likes overland the way it is. And that's likely true. People are much less likely to leave comments if it's they like it just fine. But it's very clear that the number of people who find it too easy are not small. It's a large trend.
Large enough to be a part of multiple developer interviews. Large enough to be easy engagement for content creators. Large enough to be pretty much anywhere you see the game discussed.
But sadly not large enough to break ZOS's trend of silence that has dominated things for the past, long while. If there was any degree of communication, them actively showing an interest in the points being raised, getting ideas of what pain points players have to understand what solutions would look like, then much of the tension and frustration found around this subject would have been relieved. But instead, despite this being such a large point for them, they decide 'let's just muck around with this for everyone,' despite the collateral caused to those who were content while not addressing the problems of those they were trying to appease. I know forum mods watch this thread like hawks, but I would genuinely be surprised if anyone outside of them has taken feedback from this thread here and actually talked about it, because it doesn't seem like that happens.4 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
The point is that they exist and that the opinion is very common. I challenge you to find anyone creating content which takes the opposing position.
Why would anyone make a video showing that they have no issue with anything?
I think by "opposing opinion" he means "too hard."SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »All those streamer videos show is the streamer's personal opinions. They are no more valid than anyone else's. Plus they are biased.
Perhaps, but they aren't just whiney rants. They are well-spoken, and viewed by tens of thousands of people (more like hundreds of thousands).
And most of the comments in those videos are people agreeing with him and collecting likes.
Opinion, yes. But widely shared opinions by many, many people who are potential ESO+ subs and crown crate buyers, who will help prop up a game we all love.
You can't just brush off our opinion as "just opinion" if that opinion is shared by so many. And ZOS certainly can't afford to ignore it when the subscriptions of so many potential paying customers are at stake.
This is why I say these streams are biased. Because they are being viewed by like minded players, so of course they are going to agree with them.
But by this very logic, you are proving my point. If (as you say) only like-minded players are watching the video I shared (the original one, I mean), then that means that in less than two months, 94,000 people have watched his video and basically agree that ESO is too easy.
There would logically be two different types of people watching that content:
1 - As you say, the "like-minded people", of which there are 94,000, which is a LOT of people. Which kind of proves the point that we're trying to make in this thread, that it's not just a small inconsequential minority.
2 - People who aren't even playing the game, who are unbiased, or who don't have an opinion either way... who would either (a) not want to try ESO based on this negative review or (b) people who already play it, but disagree... which would mean that many of those people would comment on the video stating their disagreement. (Yes, anger and disagreement are VERY powerful motivators for posting comments on social media, which is where the "ratio'd" term comes from. People are more willing to comment their displeasure rather than their agreement.)
The VAST majority of comments in those videos are people agreeing with the content creators, saying yes, the game is indeed too easy. Which would mean (again, according to your own logic) that there are at a minimum tens of thousands of us.
My solution would be to just level out the difficulty of all zones and DLCs (à la One Tamriel) so that people like you can still enjoy the game as it is. But simply stick a debuff LotRo-style difficulty slider on top of that so that the tens of thousands of players out there who want more challenge can have it.
Which is a win-win, since as you've already stated, you would want the base game unchanged and would support a slider.0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Theist_VII wrote: »Here is the problem with a difficulty slider…
All a difficulty slider would do is increase the damage and health of enemies you’re fighting. What we need is a mechanical overhaul to pair with the increased damage and health. If an enemy has one or two attacks that are extremely predictable, simply increasing the time to kill them wont be enough.
For an enemy to present a challenge, they need to challenge the way you think.
While it would be fine to just increase the damage of wild animals, a quest boss should feel memorable.
We're never going to get that, though, because this is an MMO and telegraphed attacks with AOE indicators are simply how the genre is done for a lot of reasons. I think we have to accept that the best we'll ever get is a way to futz with the numbers, but I think that's fine. Even just increasing damage to players changes the way they think. If you're going down more quickly, you're going to play more carefully, you're going to plan and adjust your build accordingly. Or, you're going to think about traveling in groups more often. It's a bigger change than it seems.
Also, a slider doesn't only have to affect damage to/from players. It can also augment other numbers like resource regen, stealth detection, consumable effects, proc chance, damage shields, positive/negative effect times, and more. Damage is just the most basic (and most important) thing to adjust.Edited by disky on 3 September 2024 01:210 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Nobody in this conversation is saying that our opinion is the majority opinion. It's still an opinion held by a significant number of people who care about the game and want it to be better for players like us.Edited by disky on 3 September 2024 01:286 -
Dahveed✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Millions that didn't watch perhaps, true.
But how many just don't care to state their opinion online or go looking for other videos to confirm what they think?
It's impossible to predict with any certainty how many players out there right now believe the game is too easy or too hard. My point is that, to the best of my knowledge, this can at least give us *some* numerical metric we can use. The number isn't just a few angry typers in their basements, as this thread might have you believe.
Objectively (i.e., this is not my opinion), literally tens of thousands of people (over 9 tens of thousands, to be more accurate) have happened to watch ONE video online that I shared, just in the past two months alone. It's safe to say the number of other videos, socials, etc etc that have been posted have been watched/shared/commented/like/agreed with by a far greater number than that.
The point of me posting this number was just to give us at least a partial clue as to the potentially vast number of players who might seek more challenge in this game. Maybe I'm wrong and this metric is actually terrible, but I don't think so. It's at least (I'll repeat) a clue that might lead us to believe that the number isn't inconsequential.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's extremely frustrating to hear over and over that the game I love is flawed and needs to be changed into something that will drive me out, just like the difficulty before One Tamriel did. I know the word optional is supposed to prevent that but it's not working.PCNA2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »It's extremely frustrating to hear over and over that the game I love is flawed and needs to be changed into something that will drive me out, just like the difficulty before One Tamriel did. I know the word optional is supposed to prevent that but it's not working.
Well.... it's a singular POV at this point....______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »It's extremely frustrating to hear over and over that the game I love is flawed and needs to be changed into something that will drive me out, just like the difficulty before One Tamriel did. I know the word optional is supposed to prevent that but it's not working.
The word optional isn't just flavor text for me or others.
We are not responsible for the current changes anymore than you are. We have stood united with you on them being bad. It's not what we want and it's not what we asked for. I think it's a bummer that you and others are having less fun in overland and have posted as much. There's really not more than that we can do. Our perspective is different than yours. Our experience is different than yours. And we need to voice it to have any hope of things getting any better. There are those of us who have been driven out of this game by the current state. I'm not one of them but I find myself getting there with each chapter. It took me ages to do Necrom and I still haven't touched Gold Road's story.
I don't want to be driven out.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 September 2024 02:426 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I play every day. I don't have to be enticed to return because I am already here. That should count for something.PCNA1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmph. As I am. But I am fully aware that I'm expendable.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually.... we're now at the "tilting at windmills" point. If it wouldn't be counterproductive I'd say this thread should be closed and removed.
But then we'd have to deal with a dozen of these every day.... Ugh.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0