Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

vingarmo wrote: »

What comparable numbers are for clearing arena on normal vs completing main dlc quest?
How many total clears of arena vs quest completes/hours spent?

This might help you with that, more numbers.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/10505-the-elder-scrolls-online-additional-expansions

It's just on Playstation, but it's better than nothing. This site is not affiliated Sony but they basically surf public profiles and let people specifically search their own to figure out who's earning what trophies. As it's a random sample, it's not 100% accurate obviously but it's at least counting people actively playing instead of anyone who's ever even booted it up.

Actually here's my trophies directly from psn for vvh and nvh
Edit:http://imgur.com/a/09bUXhs

SilverBride

I am very against the idea of veteran overland, optional or otherwise, for reasons I will list below:

Overland is the story and is for all players of all levels and experience... low level players and those new to ESO would struggle in a harder overland.

As my character progresses in skill and level I should be able to easily deal with the general overland mobs, and should be allowed to feel that I have gotten stronger. If the mobs keep up with me in difficulty no matter how high my CP and gear I never get to experience that.

I am the Hero and I should be able to make short order of wolves and cats and skeevers roaming around the world.

An optional veteran overland would split the playerbase (if enough players even utilized it, which I honestly doubt would happen), which is never a good idea. This did not work well before One Tamriel and wouldn't work well today.

A split playerbase would hurt the low level and new players because it would be much more difficult for them to find groups for World Bosses and Harrowstorms, causing them to become frustrated from not being able to enjoy this content and many would leave.

It would create additional instances of every world to set up and maintain, which is not an easy or quick process.

If there were veteran level rewards in the optional veteran overland this would be unfair to those who are not strong enough for this new veteran content. I know the same could be said about veteran dungeons and trials, but overland is the base game and story, which right now is equally rewarding for all.

It has been shown that the majority of players do not desire difficulty content. ESO is doing better right now than it ever has. Why mess with a winning formula?

Rich Lambert recently addressed this in a Twitch stream here and gives an explanation as to why things are as they are now. I encourage others to please watch it for his perspective.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1133028256?t=1h48m0s 1:48:00 through 1:51:11

It appears the full video is no longer available and may have been taken down, but the first part of the stream is avaialble here: https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineLovelyGrassTakeNRG-IGkmH8s1XHeD9P2u

Click SPOILER for a written transcript of the portion of the stream discussing this.

Can we get a vet mode for delves and quests? Uh, so we had that ... at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out. We put the challenge into World Bosses, and into solo Arenas, and into Dungeons and Trials.

[Speaks about skyshards then returns to the topic.]

People didn't do it because they had to go through their own alliance first? That's not actually true. A ton of people completed their own alliance storylines to get to silver and gold. A ton of people did. People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff.

I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things. And so that was why we did what we did and said story is soloable and crit path will always be soloable and if you want the extra challenge you can go seek out other things to challenge you.

I totally hear you on the difficulty thing. I like things to be more difficult. But you know, the data doesn’t lie. And we have never been more successful than we are today. And a lot of that has to do with just how much freedom players have to go and experience story.

And yes, go look at Craglorn. There’s not a lot of people in Craglorn and that’s not super difficult but it’s more hard than the regular overland.

Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time.

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it.

vingarmo

spartaxoxo wrote: »

vingarmo wrote: »

What comparable numbers are for clearing arena on normal vs completing main dlc quest?
How many total clears of arena vs quest completes/hours spent?

This might help you with that, more numbers.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/10505-the-elder-scrolls-online-additional-expansions

It's just on Playstation, but it's better than nothing. This site is not affiliated Sony but they basically surf public profiles and let people specifically search their own to figure out who's earning what trophies. As it's a random sample, it's not 100% accurate obviously but it's at least counting people actively playing instead of anyone who's ever even booted it up.

So according to that site 8.38% completed Markarth zone vs 10.17% completed arena at all vs 5.07% completed arena on vet. There could be different interpritations but interesting numbers in general. From my point of view, they do show that divide between casual population which interested in overland are not so much higher than those who interested in veteran challenges.

spartaxoxo

vingarmo wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

vingarmo wrote: »

What comparable numbers are for clearing arena on normal vs completing main dlc quest?
How many total clears of arena vs quest completes/hours spent?

This might help you with that, more numbers.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/10505-the-elder-scrolls-online-additional-expansions

It's just on Playstation, but it's better than nothing. This site is not affiliated Sony but they basically surf public profiles and let people specifically search their own to figure out who's earning what trophies. As it's a random sample, it's not 100% accurate obviously but it's at least counting people actively playing instead of anyone who's ever even booted it up.

So according to that site 8.38% completed Markarth zone vs 10.17% completed arena at all vs 5.07% completed arena on vet. There could be different interpritations but interesting numbers in general. From my point of view, they do show that divide between casual population which interested in overland are not so much higher than those who interested in veteran challenges.

Well there's an 11% completion there of the story line, but 5% that did VVH. The 8% are the people who completed the world bosses and such as well.

Hallothiel

Current state is huge disservice to old player base as it continuously sacrifices experience of this player base to make experience of new players as smooth and as easy as possible.

But Overland is meant to be for everyone; there are other areas of the game that get progressively more difficult.

I am an old player (6 yrs +) that enjoys different aspects of the game, including what is considered ‘hard’ stuff (vet trial hm) but the idea of a harder overland just doesn’t appeal. If I want to ‘test’ myself I know where I can.

I would prefer overland to stay as it is as that gives new players a chance to get into the game without too much effort.

And 50+ camping a new wb?! Of course they are, it has just dropped today!!

Franchise408

My feedback: Overland content is far too easy, and more importantly than even than, non-engaging.

Fights are more of a nuisance than anything else, because there is no meaningful challenge, and no meaningful engagement with NPC's. This makes me not want to play through the game's questing content, and by extension of that, gives me no reason to purchase further chapters if the overland content isn't addressed to be more engaging.

While the game needs to be accessible to newer players, and players of all skill levels, and shouldn't be balanced around the highest of CP level players, it also shouldn't be balanced around the lowest common denominator that wants to face 0 challenge or adversity in the game. The fun of a game comes from overcoming obstacles and challenges, and as it stands, this game's overland content provides 0 obstacle or challenge.

The solution is not to just give NPC's more health, as that simply just turns a non-engaging fight into a longer non-engaging fight.

The solution is not to just unequip all of your gear and remove your CP's, because an RPG is all about building and progression, and if you have to undo all of your building and progression simply to have any sort of challenge, then it's not a good system.

Overland needs more meaningful mechanics to engage with to provide a challenge, but unfortunately, the solution is also to not re-work the entirety of overland to give mechanics to the content that already exists. That will be far too large of an undertaking, that would be just like making an entirely new game. For this reason, I'm not sure that vet instances of overland zones would work either.

What might be able to work:

New zones that have increased difficulty. When chapters come out, either

1. The new zones can have "normal" and "vet" instances for people to choose which version they want

or

2. The first zone of the new chapter (i.e. Northern Elsweyr, Western Skyrim) can be the "easy" zone, and the 2nd zone of the new chapter (i.e. Southern Elsweyr, The Reach) can be the "veteran" zone with enhanced mechanics and challenges.

In addition to this, I may suggest that questlines have optional "normal" or "veteran" options to partake in the quest, and / or challenge banners for quest bosses.

An overview of what I think overland should look like:

1. The vast majority of "outside" overland zones (i.e. Grahtwood, Wastern Skyrim, Deshaan, and the like) stay as they are now. It would be too large an undertaking to remake all of these zones. Leave them as is.
2. Future expansion zones are separated into "normal" and "veteran", i.e. 1 new chapter zone is a "normal" zone and the other new chapter zone is a "veteran" zone.
3. Delves are given a "normal" and "veteran" version to enter.
4. Public dungeons can remain as is, as will world bosses.
5. Future questlines are given a "normal" / "veteran" option - or at the very least, the questline bosses are given a challenge banner
6. Rewards will work as they do in "normal" / "veteran" dungeons and trials, meaning that the loot itself stays the same, but it may come at an additional level. I.E. if the "normal" version of a quest or delve drops a green piece of gear, the "veteran" version will drop a blue drop of the same gear. This remains consistent with the reward drops for "normal" / "veteran" dungeons and trials, and does not become so over-powering that those not doing veteran will be missing out.

It probably doesn't go as far as some would like (even myself, tbh), and it probably goes farther than those who want 0 enhanced difficulty what-so-ever would want, but I think this is a fair compromise that

1. gives an enhanced challenge to those who feel that there is nothing left to this game outside of dungeons and trials
2. doesn't take away the lack of challenge from those who don't want it
3. is realistic, as it only really focuses on content moving forward, rather than engaging in an undertaking to rework the entirety of the game up to this point.

fizl101

I agree that I would be happy if there was an optional difficulty setting for new zones and content. If the concern is about reducing player population having a player debuff I think would work as you are not impacting on the the whole world to reprogram how every creature or enemy would behave and would still allow a mix of players to be working together, as the common foe is not adjusted to either player.

I'm not particularly worried about improved drops for a harder mode, just to be more engaged in that story and the events that I am involved in

LashanW

The most enjoyable questing experience I've had in this game was when I soloed some normal dungeons.

Base game normal dungeon enemies are not that different from overland enemies, except there's more than 1-3 enemies per group, and bosses have a large amount of HP while having interesting mechanics. The skills I used mattered, keeping an eye on my character's health and resources mattered, basic combat mechanics like blocking, dodging and interrupting were worth doing (especially in version II dungeons and DLC dungeons). Since I was soloing, I was also able experience the dungeon quest without any interruptions and the things NPCs said to me made sense. This made dungeon quests and end bosses in them very memorable.

Compared to that, overland questing experience is very stale. Combat aspect is non-existent if you are an experienced player. I remember very few encounters in the quests of the 10+ zones I completed. It is very much like visual novel type of gameplay, which unfortunately I cannot enjoy. After 4 years of playing I've completely given up on overland story content.

An option for a veteran overland/questing would make me come back to ESO in an instant.

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland is the story and is for all players of all levels and experience... low level players and those new to ESO would struggle in a harder overland.

I don't agree with the sentiment that overland is for everyone. If it was, there wouldn't be these threads. Btw, when people say overland is for "everyone", what do they mean? Overland/quests can be completable by everyone? Or enjoyable by everyone?

If it's simply completing the content then I can also say that veteran hard mode trials are also for everyone. If you don't have the skill, you can simply farm gold and buy a carry run. Anyone can complete even the hardest content that way, you get the loot, achievements, titles and skins or whatever rewards associated for completion. You probably won't enjoy the process though, and there probably will not be any sense of satisfaction.

SilverBride wrote: »

An optional veteran overland would split the playerbase (if enough players even utilized it, which I honestly doubt would happen), which is never a good idea. This did not work well before One Tamriel and wouldn't work well today.

A split playerbase would hurt the low level and new players because it would be much more difficult for them to find groups for World Bosses and Harrowstorms, causing them to become frustrated from not being able to enjoy this content and many would leave.

If many players won't use veteran overland then there wouldn't be much of a split in the playerbase. If many players prefer overland as it is, then low level and new players wouldn't have issues finding groups. If anyone is "hurt" because of lack of groups, it will be people in the veteran overland. (I personally don't care about what other players are doing in a zone if I'm out exploring and questing).

As for the concerns about server resources, developers' time and money, I can't say anything. Because I haven't seen the source code for this game, I don't know about the live deployment environments for the 2 megaservers or their hardware specifications. I am not a project manager or a team lead working at ZoS and I'm certainly not a primary stakeholder or a major sponsor/investor. Everyone who comments here are in the same boat (except for those folks with the green ZoS names and logo). So let's not kid ourselves with such baseless arguments.

We are just customers, we can always ask for features. Management at ZoS will decide whether or not to provide those features at some point in the future.

CP5

Nice to see a more official thread on this subject. I'll try to keep my response as short as possible for what points it's worth.

I used to do a lot of questing before one tamriel. When that update hit, I was heavy into pvp and didn't get back to finishing the gold zones until well after it was live. I remember getting to the end of the rivenspire quest chain, fighting through a massive ruin through an army of the undead, to hunt down a vampire who was the mastermind of a to be civil war, only to get to the highest room in the tallest tower, and put him down before he had a chance to really even respond to me being there. There is no satisfaction from that, the praise from the npcs afterwards felt hollow, and I remember the event for how unsatisfying it was, nothing more.

Counter to this, Doshia, the first boss of the fighter's guild quest line, I remember that fight well. Leading up to it you had 3 fights, against scamps, 1 then 2 then 3. I remember that because, being a new player and not really paying attention, the first fight was a breeze, but the others were hard. Now as an experience player I could have just used [any attack that hits more than one enemy at once] or [prioritized the scamp that is doing light attacks while the others waste time channeling skills that are easy to avoid], but it was still satisfying getting to Doshia.

Then, when the fight started, I dropped my atronach on her head, poured all my resources into the attack, and surprise harvester. I remember running, the waves of grabby hands flying by. I would turn to take shots at her, but she would just heal. Then I remember trying to attack the orbs, they died easily and, with her source of healing countered, I was able to beat her for good. I remember that fight, that one encounter from years ago, because I had a situation I had to overcome, the tools to do so, and the reason to put the pieces together. That is what I got out of that quest, sure I saved whats-his-name and got some item I may not have even deconed, but that memory, that story to share, the satisfaction of accomplishing something by improving, that is something that doesn't exist in the lions share of content in eso anymore.

Ever since one tamriel every zone is set to one level, there wasn't much difference between the zones before except "if you aren't the recommended level you're going to have a bad time, but if you are, it's all the same," and that even applies to the old gold and silver zones. Problem is, by making sure beginning players who may not even know how to unlock skills are able to go anywhere in the world and quest along, anyone who is used to more engaging content or looking to have the world up the stakes as they level up will likely feel the game is pandering to them. Setting up a big climatic fight yet leaving the big bad's neck under a guillotine with the lever in the player's hand.

What is the point of trying to engage with an epic story when you know any fights during quest will be nothing but padding for time, and the villains won't even be able to stall you long enough to get a word in edge wise? Why venture to the dead lands when the heart of dagon's realm is as dangerous as main street disnyland? Purpose drives my desire to explore and engage with the world, and was why I was able to do the elsweyr content, because dragons are an actual threat. But beyond that? A test of patience waiting for the overly dramatic npcs to just get to the point about where the final boss is, so I can just end it, because sadly most of the content leading up to that point fails.

This hits both long time players and newer players who, after a few hours, may realize the world isn't going to offer anything more to them than what they've already seen, causing people from both camps to leave, one because they have nothing to do outside their group content, and the other because they don't know that beyond the simplistic overland content, eso has a lot of enjoyable content to engage with. Those who say eso's combat is bad likely haven't gotten to that point, because all they need to do to succeed in overland is the bare minimum, and that makes them believe that's all there is.

And that leads to another issue with the player base. Many experienced players avoid the dungeon finder like the plague, or treat it as a joke, because if you use it you know full well what you'll find. A lot of players, who were able to find success in overland, slaying daedric lords and saving the world several times over, without even having to try to understand the basics of how the game works. It is good for people to be able to enjoy the content, but people shouldn't have to either join group content or go to maelstrom or vateshran to practice some important core skills. Paying attention to enemies, learning how to pick who to attack, who to interrupt, movement, blocking, eating food. By failing to teach players the skills they need to succeed, those players see any form of resistance as an insurmountable difficulty spike, when in reality people are generally far more capable than they give themselves credit for but have been lulled into putting in little effort by content that requires nothing to succeed.

Because ZOS clearly has the tech to create different instances, looking at housing, all forms of pvp except duels, dungeons, and even zones (and with different rule sets as established with gold and silver zones) it is clear that the tech already exist to provide an optional overland using the same tools that were here when the game launched. The real legwork comes down to establishing what those 'vet overland rules' would be, but some ideas would include things like:

• removing the 'tank' mobs desire to flee from combat with the jump attack, while also giving them chains (as is seen on many mobs) as well as enough armor and health to actually survive
• replacing the conjuror orb with literally any other summon that would have some meaningful impact on the battlefield
• increasing the radius and damage of fire mage aoe's so they actually function as a zoning tool and aren't just fireworks to make the fight look more impressive than it actually is

And that list goes on from there. Difficulty like seen in the old gold and silver zones failed because flat damage and health buffs didn't make Mr. "I'mGoingToBackUpAndThrowThisKnifeRealQuick" more engaging, just more tedious. Difficulty from enemies mattering is what would be needed, by allowing different enemy types to actually shine. That would give experienced players situations they would need to think through, and newer players a place to practice things like, learning what armor pen is when fighting tanks, or the importance of interrupting a channeling mage, and the like.

So yeah, longer response than I thought it would be, but in short, ESO has great stories, an amazing world, and engaging gameplay. The last isn't seen until people start doing group content, if they stick around for that long, and they will often find themselves greatly unprepared for because none of the skills they need are practiced before. And for the players who already engage with that content, stepping back is almost painful with content either providing no resistance as you carve your way through it, undermining the story and taking the thrill out of exploration, or requires so extensive self limiting that it's often easier to just log out and do something else.

AzuraFan

I'd be okay with an option for more difficulty, but NOT with changing it for everyone.

There seems to be an assumption on some players' part that everyone hates the easy overland and because there's no challenge, they're leaving. As someone who spends 99% of my in-game time doing overland stuff, I don't see it. Areas are well populated. People are having fun.

The only thing I'd like to see changed with overland is that some areas (mainly the base game ones) have too many trash mobs. You can't move an inch without having to fight something. Blackwood and Greymoor got this right. Reduce the trash mob density.

But like I said, if people want an option for difficult overland, no problem. I suspect the number of those playing with that option turned on will be fewer than they expect.

milkchai

CP5 wrote: »

...the satisfaction of accomplishing something by improving, that is something that doesn't exist in the lions share of content in eso anymore.

CP5 wrote: »

It is good for people to be able to enjoy the content, but people shouldn't have to either join group content or go to maelstrom or vateshran to practice some important core skills.

CP5 wrote: »

...people are generally far more capable than they give themselves credit for but have been lulled into putting in little effort by content that requires nothing to succeed.

your comment sums up my thoughts on this game as well. a lot of the content feels dry and unrewarding, especially mechanically. there just aren't enough interesting combat mechanics displayed in overland to adequately prepare a player for arguably 'legitimate' content such as dungeons and trials. i'm not saying it has to be a minefield dance party of aoe-dodging like ffxiv, but it would be nice to see something that requires more than standing there like a turret and mashing light attack like i see so many do.

if msq is supposed to appeal to the more-casual elder scrolls fan, and instanced content to the mmo fan, then it's unfortunate that after so many years, this blend still hasn't been made palatable to those looking for a challenge.

Mandragora

I would like to have more of RP content.
Blackwood was nice for riding around, but there was nothing heavy on mechanics - I miss the ability to sneak around hunting for animals, or with Miri the joy of sneaking around stabbing enemies in a clever way was even more lowered. I miss guarding merchants or a village together with quest givers as their member. Or continuing doing daily for certain faction/specific person - like hunters of Grathwood or even some farmers. And I miss some zone specific tasks - like being a ghosthunter.

I would like to say that I really liked those new Blackwood random encounters as an enhanced RP/alive overland, but I miss deeper mechanics as those mentioned above.

SilverBride

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland is the story and is for all players of all levels and experience... low level players and those new to ESO would struggle in a harder overland.

I don't agree with the sentiment that overland is for everyone. If it was, there wouldn't be these threads. Btw, when people say overland is for "everyone", what do they mean? Overland/quests can be completable by everyone? Or enjoyable by everyone?

What reason does a veteran geared high CP player have for doing veteran overland beyond leveling a new character? Overland story quests are something you do once per character. And if they are there to farm resources or collect surveys for example, do they really want to have a 5 minute fight with the wolf standing in front of the node? I'm pretty sure they would just use normal overland for those tasks, so what would veteran overland be used for?

Enjoyable is a subjective opinion and not one that we all share.

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

An optional veteran overland would split the playerbase (if enough players even utilized it, which I honestly doubt would happen), which is never a good idea. This did not work well before One Tamriel and wouldn't work well today.

A split playerbase would hurt the low level and new players because it would be much more difficult for them to find groups for World Bosses and Harrowstorms, causing them to become frustrated from not being able to enjoy this content and many would leave.

If many players won't use veteran overland then there wouldn't be much of a split in the playerbase. If many players prefer overland as it is, then low level and new players wouldn't have issues finding groups. If anyone is "hurt" because of lack of groups, it will be people in the veteran overland. (I personally don't care about what other players are doing in a zone if I'm out exploring and questing).

I agree that if many players wouldn't use veteran overland then there would be less of a split in the playerbase. But this brings up the point that would it be even remotely feasible to make such a drastic change for something that would rarely be utillized?

EDITED to clarify.

StevieKingslayer

Thankyou for this thread and space for us to have our opinions.

My personal opinion/experience:

I have played since day one, and I was that person that used to just pick up gear that dropped from anything and wear it (I didnt understand how sets worked for well over 2 years.) I completed Cadwells, In that time. The argument that players didnt do it because it was too hard, is untrue - Because imo, they didnt put enough effort into it. I sat at world bosses and learnt the mechanic they did, I died multiple times, but I did complete everything. I dont think it was "too hard", I think people just didnt have the patience or time, and that's fine - But now, since the OneT update, I have no desire to quest for anymore than 6 minutes. It has made it boring and stale for me.

I only recently got into 'meta gear', and I dont even use it correctly, and even before then, on my pvp build running around waiting for queues I would one shot mobs accidently. Im not doing rotations, Im just heavy attacking once and things are dead. Granted, I am a higher cp, I do have my points in.

But this isnt even the major issue here, The major issue is there is -no point- in players completing the new content. Why should we be soundblasted about how horrible and terrible a new story enemy is, when it takes 2 minutes to defeat (and that is very generous - That is the vampire boss for the end of greymoor, and thats only because of the flying mech. If she'd been stationary like most bosses, she'd be dead in 2 seconds flat.)

I dont want to ruin others gaming experience - If you want to just hop around and collect your water and one shot everything, fine. But can I at least have a flag I can raise as a challenge banner for final story quests. I have always LOVED questing, please give me a reason to keep doing it. I dont care about the rewards, I care about having an engaging playtime. And before anyone points this out, Yes I do go do the hard trials, I do every veteran dungeon on hardmode. I want to go back to having a challenge with questing because honestly...You dont release enough "end game" content when you release these dlcs. Its not acceptable that if I want a challenge, I have to spend 6 months in Rockgrove until a new challenge is released. As it is, I Offtank Rockgroe as a vampire -without- using mistform for the challenge (before the nerf.) So this idea that everything is really hard unless you sweaty it and 100% understand the game is utterly unfounded. I have ZERO idea whats going on half the time I just watch the mechanics. I dont understand how sets work, I don't build meta and I go out of my way to avoid 90% of the mythics. I dont watch videos, I tune out in discord when trials are explained. I just watch what the bosses are telling me. That is from those early years of standing at a boss fight, and watching.

I understand people dont -want- harder everything overland. Thats okay, but can we have something, anything, please?

SilverBride

I would like to add that I do support some type of toggle to make the main story bosses more difficult for those who enjoy a more challenging fight, so those players can feel more immersed in the story.

I also support a debuff for players who want a more difficult overland experience in general.

mahoukitty

Thank you for this thread!

I don't really have solutions to offer for this issue the way that others do, but I wanted to add my thoughts as someone who has played on and off since 2014, because I do think that something should be done to address the general dissatisfaction about overland content. I played the base game story before the One Tamriel update and I have really good memories of the game from that time. I remember stumbling into a zone that was too high-level for me and being able to come back to it later with more experience and better gear to finally beat it, and I miss that feeling. It's just gone now because everything that I encounter feels the same regardless of my skills or gear. I don't think that the game pre-OT was necessarily better, and I understand the reasons for introducing it, but I miss that particular feeling.

I'm almost exclusively a solo player and don't really engage with group content like Craglorn or trials other than when I occasionally feel like it and I agree with a point that someone previously made that the learning curve is incredibly steep, with the game's general content not really preparing you for the harder endgame stuff. Saying that, I acknowledge that plenty of other people have managed to do it without such handholding, so I've always put that down to a certain laziness and lack of research on my part, but we're not talking about the intentionally difficult content that was developed as an attemtped solution to this discussion in the past.

I think it's really important to take into account the concerns of people who are happy with the current difficulty or are worried about the exclusion of sections of the player base like @Toxic_Hemlock raised, so I agree with the people saying that simply upping an enemy's health and damage output isn't necessarily enough; the content has to be more engaging rather than simply more difficult. I came across a perfect example of this just last night - the final encounter with Kaalgrontiid in Elsweyr. The guy had so much health and at first glance I was really intimidated! But throughout the fight I quickly came to realise that I was never actually in any danger and his mechanics never changed at all, so it became a slog to chip away at him until he fell and really just left the whole story line feeling very disatisfying. I think this is the general sense that a lot of people are conveying when they use the catch-all term of "difficulty". I don't even have exceptional gear or a meticulous build - I'm a very casual and easygoing player by most definitions. While I really like that I can still use my Hunding's Rage set from 6 years ago and just use the skills that I find the most fun to quest with, there has to be a better balance out there somewhere.

I could well be looking at this through rose-tinted glasses, but when I compare that dragon fight to the adventure we all went on to defeat Molag Bal, it's like I remember playing a completely different game. ESO for me has always had the best questing experience of any mmo, and in the past I always thought that things like combat didn't contribute to that experience, but playing through some of the more recent updates have made me appreciate the role of a good boss fight much more.

LonePirate

For all of these people wanting challenging overland content, where were you back in 2014 when this game went live and during May, June and early July of that year, the VR Gold zones (and to a lesser extent the VR Silver zones) along with most of Craglorn, were dead zones that nobody played? We've already been down this road and the public voted No by not playing the challenging overland content.

Ergele

yooo they are hearing us

CoronHR

one easy thing that might make things more challenging is for the player to take more damage from enemies. if an enemy can kill you in 3-4 hits, or less, then things could get very interesting. i like killing enemies fast to be honest, but if they were able to kill me fast, i might play much more defensively, instead of just yolo all the time

Franchise408

SilverBride wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland is the story and is for all players of all levels and experience... low level players and those new to ESO would struggle in a harder overland.

I don't agree with the sentiment that overland is for everyone. If it was, there wouldn't be these threads. Btw, when people say overland is for "everyone", what do they mean? Overland/quests can be completable by everyone? Or enjoyable by everyone?

What reason does a veteran geared high CP player have for doing veteran overland beyond leveling a new character? Overland story quests are something you do once per character. And if they are there to farm resources or collect surveys for example, do they really want to have a 5 minute fight with the wolf standing in front of the node? I'm pretty sure they would just use normal overland for those tasks, so what would veteran overland be used for?

Enjoyable is a subjective opinion and not one that we all share.

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

An optional veteran overland would split the playerbase (if enough players even utilized it, which I honestly doubt would happen), which is never a good idea. This did not work well before One Tamriel and wouldn't work well today.

A split playerbase would hurt the low level and new players because it would be much more difficult for them to find groups for World Bosses and Harrowstorms, causing them to become frustrated from not being able to enjoy this content and many would leave.

If many players won't use veteran overland then there wouldn't be much of a split in the playerbase. If many players prefer overland as it is, then low level and new players wouldn't have issues finding groups. If anyone is "hurt" because of lack of groups, it will be people in the veteran overland. (I personally don't care about what other players are doing in a zone if I'm out exploring and questing).

I agree that if many players wouldn't use veteran overland then there would be less of a split in the playerbase. But this brings up the point that would it be even remotely feasible to make such a drastic change for something that would rarely be utillized?

EDITED to clarify.

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

casparian

SilverBride wrote: »

What reason does a veteran geared high CP player have for doing veteran overland beyond leveling a new character? Overland story quests are something you do once per character.

On the contrary, I have done most overland content in ESO zero times per character -- every time I try the undertuned combat breaks my immersion and I can't manage interest more than a quest or two. I love ESO's lore and as far as I can tell the stories are actually great -- I just want a challenging overland option so I can play through them even once without what is to me a massive immersion issue.

Sylvermynx

CoronHR wrote: »

one easy thing that might make things more challenging is for the player to take more damage from enemies. if an enemy can kill you in 3-4 hits, or less, then things could get very interesting. i like killing enemies fast to be honest, but if they were able to kill me fast, i might play much more defensively, instead of just yolo all the time

Heh. They kill me fast enough as it is.... I got 2 shot by a delve boss (hmm, which one was it? - I think it might have been Dimitri in Farangel's). My 640+ Warden was the only one there, and even with buff food and decent gear she died. Then another person came along so I had help - and a HUGE repair bill....

That's not unusual for me. I have very high satellite ping, and even though I've played for almost 3.5 years, it's pretty hard for me to kill "minor bosses", or more than 3 mobs at a time. Bosses like Vandacia, Mulaamnir, Doshia (yes, in her current iteration) are very difficult for me.

I'm okay with optional harder overland. If it's non-optional, well, I'll not be playing.... Overland is all I'm really interested in, I don't have any use for group content (not least of which is because I'm NOT going to dump 750+ ping on others) and if it gets too hard for me, the fun will be gone.

FlopsyPrince

I would strongly bet that most players do not want hard overland content. Most want to have a fun experience, not one they have to struggle with all the time.

A few players are a bit more disappointed and do want it harder, but my money would be on that they are not the main playerbase, but they are more vocal.

I would personally bet that more people want a Central Auction House than want harder overland content, for example.

I would want more quality of life things, especially those things on the PC that make playing on console so much poorer in comparison.

TLDR: No, we do not need or want harder overland content.

Though that does raise the question of exactly what is "overland content".

drsalvation

I think overhauling all overland would be a bad idea as most of you told me on the thread I created yesterday.
And after considering it, I realized it's true, it is a bad idea to overhaul ALL of overland content.

What I still wish they could rework on for a veteran mode is story content. It doesn't have to be all overland content, just story.
The five companions, fighters and mages guild are already solo, instanced areas, why not make them veteran?
You only get to play story content ONCE, in my opinion, the most engaging part of the game that can make you keep coming back to it after a day (since arenas and trials are done in a single run and then just become gear farms).

To me, the ludonarrative dissonance breaks the entire story experience. I wanted to be scared of molag bal the same way I was scared of the brothers of strife back when the game first launched on consoles, but defeating a daedric prince felt as underwhelming as defeating a delve boss. Meanwhile I'm still scared of the final bosses in the solo arenas even tho nothing in any story points them out to be the world-threatening threats they are, but I often find myself holding back on these boss fights because they're so insultingly easy.

Especially if the boss is not in an instanced area.
You get to the dungeon, you find the boss, but the boss is already dead while another player is checking their backpacks, so you wait for your turn to kill the boss, so you kill it quickly enough, you loot him, and then another player arrives, now it's their turn to kill the boss, and there's already 2 corpses of the same boss on the ground, and then you go back to collect your reward, and the characters are telling you how apparently it was YOU who saved the region, and not the player before you, or the player after you.
At least with the veteran story bosses, they'd feel more like a challenge, now you have an incentive to try your awesome trial gear in places that aren't trials, and if you find another player against that boss, it will feel less like a carnival ride and more like a necessary team-up.

Fermian

LonePirate wrote: »

For all of these people wanting challenging overland content, where were you back in 2014 when this game went live and during May, June and early July of that year, the VR Gold zones (and to a lesser extent the VR Silver zones) along with most of Craglorn, were dead zones that nobody played? We've already been down this road and the public voted No by not playing the challenging overland content.

Well thats [snip].

Playing the other factions as endgame was a bit lame.
Craglorn is full of people now.
One tamriel is great, adding vet zones is an expansion of the one tamriel system.

[edited for profanity bypass]

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

...so what would veteran overland be used for?

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

This is the part I am not understanding. Participate how? What content beyond the story and side quests would players be doing in veteran overland, because once the story is complete what else is there to do besides farming nodes or collecting surveys or digging up maps and antiquity leads? Which most would choose to do in normal overland for convenience anyway.

Would players be killing World Bosses, or doing Harrowstorms or Delves? Doing those repeatedly would become just as repetitious as dungeons and trials.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

...so what would veteran overland be used for?

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

This is the part I am not understanding. Participate how? What content beyond the story and side quests would players be doing in veteran overland, because once the story is complete what else is there to do besides farming nodes or collecting surveys or digging up maps and antiquity leads? Which most would choose to do in normal overland for convenience anyway.

Would players be killing World Bosses, or doing Harrowstorms or Delves? Doing those repeatedly would become just as repetitious as dungeons and trials.

We aren't doing the content because it isn't engaging. The year long stories? Why bother when the connecting tissue between events is a slog to get through. Venturing into exciting new locations? Even the most dangerous realms are less of a threat than the outer wall of wayrest.

We aren't even doing the content in the first place Silver, and as you've said many times fun is subjective, and for us we aren't doing that content in the first place because we don't find it fun. All of that content, the world, is a chore at best to engage with, but what we are wanting to enjoy. You said it yourself, and you don't need to share in our way of playing the game, but please understand that many people who love the game haven't touched major parts of it because of how stale it feels to run.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

We aren't doing the content because it isn't engaging. The year long stories? Why bother when the connecting tissue between events is a slog to get through. Venturing into exciting new locations? Even the most dangerous realms are less of a threat than the outer wall of wayrest.

We aren't even doing the content in the first place Silver, and as you've said many times fun is subjective, and for us we aren't doing that content in the first place because we don't find it fun. All of that content, the world, is a chore at best to engage with, but what we are wanting to enjoy. You said it yourself, and you don't need to share in our way of playing the game, but please understand that many people who love the game haven't touched major parts of it because of how stale it feels to run.

What if you had a debuff for the story quests and a toggle to make the main story boss more difficult? Would that increase your enjoyment or motivate you to jump back into the story content?

I am all for players enjoying the game, and I wish everyone could enjoy it as much as I do. But any change has to make sense, and creating a veteran overland that few would utilize doesn't.

Caroloces

Thanks to the Devs for this great thread with a lot of great input already!

I'll try to keep it short: I've been a player since Beta, and still love the game, but the only thing that attracts me to overland content these days are the lore and the skillpoints one gains through the main story quests. I miss terribly the suspense and tension I experienced early in the game when confronting such antagonists as Doshia and Mannimarco. I recall dying often and having to think through strategies to help me achieve ultimate victory. Nowadays, I actually refrain from attacking so I don't instantly kill these so-called ultimate threats to Tamriel.

Here's my suggestion for what it's worth: For player levels 1-50, keep overland content just as it is. As soon as a player reaches champion point status, have the health levels of zone antagonists rise a certain amount dependent upon the number of CPs the player has accumulated. It could be something like every 100 CPs the player gains, then the health of antagonists rises X amount. And, much like the campaigns in Cyrodiil, perhaps the player can choose to do a zone with CP or no CP. In that way, those players who just want to sashay through a zone collecting resources or gear could choose No CP and have it as easy as it is now.

I think the mechanics are great - clever, innovative and surprising at times, so no need to change those. I'd just like the antagonists to live long enough so I could enjoy them more!

LonePirate

Fermian wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

For all of these people wanting challenging overland content, where were you back in 2014 when this game went live and during May, June and early July of that year, the VR Gold zones (and to a lesser extent the VR Silver zones) along with most of Craglorn, were dead zones that nobody played? We've already been down this road and the public voted No by not playing the challenging overland content.

Well thats [snip].

Playing the other factions as endgame was a bit lame.
Craglorn is full of people now.
One tamriel is great, adding vet zones is an expansion of the one tamriel system.

You obviously were not around in the spring of 2014. Vet zones (the VR 1-10 zones) were the precursors, not an expansion, to One Tamriel. Prior to the content nerf in July of 2014, the best gear in the game dropped from these high end zones and people still refused to play them. Whether you think it is lame or not, that was the end game. I would recommend investigating and learning history before commenting on things you did not experience.

[edited to remove quote]