SilverBride wrote: »SimonThesis wrote: »Mobs already adjust to your level, I think after max level they should also adjust to your gear. If you're in gold perfected trial and perfected arena sets they should be more challenging. If your just wearing crafted gear they should be easier. Rewards stay the same. This option would please all involved, want a harder experience wear your trial gear, want an easier casual experience just put on whatever.
I am against this because it would force more difficult mobs on players who may not want it.
I was always very casual in my gear and it's only been the past few months that I got more serious and decked my characters out in 2 full sets with the right traits and enchants. I was surprised by just how much stronger I became and I love it. I love being able to solo things I couldn't before. I love that I am stronger and can easily take down mobs I had struggled with before.
I do not want this taken away from me.
I wouldn't have a problem with an achievement for completing an area on hard mode.You could offer no reward other than a small achievement for doing something.
SilverBride wrote: »Increased rewards for completing veteran vs normal are only fair because you already spending more time and effort doing it.
If a player is forced to complete veteran content, as was the case with Cadwell's Silver and Gold, then better rewards would make sense. But that is not what is happening here. Players asking for veteran overland say they find the fights too easy and not engaging and want a more difficult experience to enhance their immersion. This is something they are asking for, not being forced into, and there should not be increased rewards for it. The more immersive experience is the reward.Never mind that developers themselves stated that one of the main reasons they hesitant on doing this experiment, because they are not sure how to incentivize it.
When Rich Lambert was asked about an optional veteran overland he didn't say they were hesitant to try this or that they were even considering it at all. What he said was:
"Would it be an option just to give people the choice? It is not as simple as just flip a switch and make things more difficult. There is a TON of work and then as Lucky mentioned earlier you have to also incentivize that. Like just making something more difficult for no reason, if you’re not going to get anything out of it why do it? The satisfaction's there sure but players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time."
So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it. - Rich Lambert
Currently overland rewards are at bottom tier as it is and provide no use to experienced or new players.
Personally, I can go ahead and enjoy addition of optional difficulty to questing without extra rewards, which I can compensate by doing other things. But how you would sell that major change as feature to attract even larger part of the player base and extend their time spend there?
SilverBride wrote: »
SilverBride wrote: »
I don’t expect overland to provide trial level BIS sets, but I do think that rewards should be enticing enough to lure players from other in-game activities and compensate appropriately for their time spend there. How giving more reasons to revisit the DLC more than once could be a bad thing?
Cadwell's Silver/Gold pre One Tamriel
Regarding Cadwell's Silver and Gold back before the One Tamriel, the zones were empty because there were 3 separate instances of each!
For Daggerfall Covenant:
- DC zones - sub 50
- AD zones - 0-8 VR
- EP zones - 9-14 VR
For Aldmeri Dominion:
- DC zones - 9-14 VR
- AD zones - sub 50
- EP zones - 0-8 VR
For Ebonheart Pact
- DC zones - 0-8 VR
- AD zones - 9-14 VR
- EP zones - sub 50
Therefore, saying the world was empty due to low interest is simply a lie. It was different design back then.
Furthermore, people were kind of burnt out from doing their first zones. I remember finally finishing the end zone in Daggerfall Covenant only to discover I can now do other zones too. I did them, just not right away. I wanted the end-game, awesome Cyrodiil war, not to go back to questing for another month or two.
The game was fairly new then, and people wanted to try different things. Excuse us for not rushing straight back into questing when we finally got to the endgame.Craglorn"
Let's not confuse early Craglorn design with optional overland difficulty increase. Craglorn was designed to be a group zone. You were forced to group-up! That's why majority evaded it. Not because it was hard to solo, but because it was impossible to solo.
Please, let's stop comparing apples and oranges.
The key word is "OPTIONAL"
Please, stop being emotional about how this would ruin the game for you. No one said we want ESO to become the Dark Souls (I read all comments and literally no one said it should be mandatory as to "cull out the weak").
After reading the comments, it is fairly clear everyone who wants it, wants it to be:
- Optional
- No extra reward, or only minor increase (e.g. blue item instead of green, maybe extra xp)
- To affect mainly boss fights - let's be honest, even Disney princesses have more engaging fights with their nemesis than we do in ESO.
Buffing DMG/HP won't fix this
I think this is somewhat wrong.
Right now, we're in a state where we can roll our faces on the keyboard and watch the world burn. OK, maybe a bit of an overstatement. The point is, the majority of the mechanics don't even live to see the light of day. Yes, the cast times are often slow, easy to dodge, etc. But the dmg is so low that even if the projectile hits you, nothing happens. You don't even need to use the shield (shield was my most often used spell back in the day).
Buffing HP will make the fights last longer. This may not be always desired. E.g., when we're farming mats.
Buffing DMG makes the fights more dangerous. We will have to be more careful. E.g., use shield/heal, actually dodge stuff, not pull the all the denizens of Narnia.
This is why I think the adjustable difficulty property debuffs might be a really good start.(See my comment on page 1 for more info.)...
[edit]: Added section on "HP/DMG increase
SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don’t expect overland to provide trial level BIS sets, but I do think that rewards should be enticing enough to lure players from other in-game activities and compensate appropriately for their time spend there. How giving more reasons to revisit the DLC more than once could be a bad thing?
Why do we need to lure players away from other in game activities to spend time in DLC's? Tamriel is a vast world and players are free to explore it as they wish. Besides there are already plenty of incentives for players to spend time in all the zones, such as farming for patterns and resources and antiquities, doing dailies and World Bosses, surveys and maps, completing achievements, and all the things that players already do.
I don't understand though what any of this has to do with overland difficulty.
SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don’t expect overland to provide trial level BIS sets, but I do think that rewards should be enticing enough to lure players from other in-game activities and compensate appropriately for their time spend there. How giving more reasons to revisit the DLC more than once could be a bad thing?
Why do we need to lure players away from other in game activities to spend time in DLC's? Tamriel is a vast world and players are free to explore it as they wish. Besides there are already plenty of incentives for players to spend time in all the zones, such as farming for patterns and resources and antiquities, doing dailies and World Bosses, surveys and maps, completing achievements, and all the things that players already do.
I don't understand though what any of this has to do with overland difficulty.
The whole idea of that rework is to make zone DLCs more attractive to larger group of players. As of now questing in such zones provide close to nothing in terms of rewards and dailies last pretty much until first event involving said zone, which devalues anything you can earn from them to oblivion. These are major reasons why such DLCs become a ghost towns in a few months. They simply lack replayability. And if the rewards for beating demigods and saving Tamriel look ridiculously undertuned now then after adding vet difficulty it would be meme worthy. Adding difficulty on it’s own is good but why not address rewards issue while we at it?As for other incentives you mention, I have hard time believing that.
Farm resources? Starter islands or Hews Bane is the way to go.
Patterns? Events devalued them hard, not that it’s a bad thing, but spending hundreds of hours trying to find the one you need while you can easily farm gold other way and just buy it from guild traders pretty cheap, so why bother? The ones that still hold value are super rare from the start or new. Good chunk of them also sold from rng containers for vouchers.
Antiquities same as quests one time thing only mostly.
Surveys are short activity and have very little to do with the zone itself.
And are there any reasons to do WB in Western Skyrim or Elsweir for example? Last time I was in those zones they was not that popular. Motifs from those dailies are less than 10k, so again why bother?
Just to give an example how it would be an improvement at least for me:
As of now, I complete zone DLCs once and never return to them outside of events to grind tickets.
Addressing difficulty issue would make gameplay more enjoyable so I might replay it 2 more times on other characters.
If rewards are improved and offer something of value, I might consider vising said DLC more often, on more characters and not feel like I missing out on something while doing that thus spending more time in ESO then I spend now.
The whole idea of that rework is to make zone DLCs more attractive to larger group of players.
SilverBride wrote: »The whole idea of that rework is to make zone DLCs more attractive to larger group of players.
This thread was started to discuss overland content in one place, because there had been multiple threads asking to increase the difficulty of overland mobs, or create an optional veteran overland. The issue is that some players find overland too easy and feel this breaks immersion in the story and prevents them from enjoying it. There was never any discussion in these threads to make DLC's more attractive to larger groups of players.
Ravensilver wrote: »Is this about re-populating old zones, or is it about making every fight in the open world a WB-quality one?
Honestly, I wouldn't want to have to fight every wolf and bear in an epic, 5-minute-full-of-mechanics fight every two steps, just because I wanted to pick a flower.
I think it would be a good idea to define what is really meant with "overland is too easy".
- Do you want every single mob in the open world to be an epic opponent?
- Or should it be only the bosses in Delves and Dungeons?
- Is it about the quests being too easy? But then, aren't we supposed to be enjoying the *story*, not the fights?
- Why are you not doing the quests, since they are integral to the story? Do you just want a 'Fight Club' kind of game, where you do nothing but fight and fight and fight all day/night, without actually bothering with the content of the game?
- Vet overland? What does that apply to? Everything that moves? All the quests? Every single step? The endboss?
Perhaps we should try to find a common ground there, before we try to find solutions to something that we can't even really agree on, since everyone is experiencing it differently?
And really... why bother playing ESO - a game *driven* by story and quest content - if you aren't interested in story and questing? Wouldn't an ego shooter address that better?
First are the issues' people like me currently have with overland and questing content.Now, there is nothing wrong with ESO's current overland. The game goes strong because a large enough part of the population enjoys it, and there is a reason why ZOS keeps putting it out as the largest bit of content. But for both long time players who are looking to do something beyond dungeons and trials, and for new players both looking for a challenge, or looking to practice their abilities outside of group content, overland offers nothing. Self gimping doesn't solve the issue of enemies refusing to fight back, it doesn't matter if the enemy type who does that whole 'backup then throw knife' routine takes 10s to kill or 10min, or if his knife one-shots if it lands or just snares. The simple fact is that enemy is a one note challenge that once overcome does nothing to engage a player despite what satisfaction you could gain by waiting next to him for the last second of his throw channel to approach only to interrupt him and leave him in the dirt. The goal of vet overland would be to let the overland content take advantage of all the game has to offer to provide more memorable and meaningful encounters.
- Enemies intentionally using abilities that waste their own time or are counterproductive to the fight. This is things like tank npcs leaping out of fights to leave their allies to die, or conjurer mobs summoning literal bubbles that do so little I still don't know their purpose. Many enemy types have abilities like these that take forever to go off and result in nothing if they do, fireworks to make the fight seem more intense without contributing to the fight.
- Enemies blending together. Having jumped around several other games lately, and having played games before ESO, it is amazing how little the type of enemy you're fighting matters. An npc dual wielding daggers vs a npc in heavy armor with a sword and shield both fight the same, same hp, same armor, same damage output, with the main factor between the two being which one will pick the 'waste their own time' ability first in a fight.
This makes almost any fight feel exactly the same, and to any player who understands that using an ability that hits multiple targets at once for its full damage, (carve, arrow spray, impulse, exc.) you can kill any group of 3 mobs no matter the composition without even recognizing who you fought. It would make the fights forgettable, but they would have to be remembered first to be forgotten, and they aren't worth that.- Held punches. In the tutorial you are forced to do several things, blocking heavy attacks, bashing to interrupt, cc breaking. Add in something like moving out of red aoe's and these make the core gameplay tools all players have access to. Now, for vet content these skills are used often, more so in pvp, but in overland when do these matter? What mobs aside from world bosses hit hard enough to warrant a block? Which enemies channel spells dangerous enough to be worth your time to interrupt? Which aoe attacks are even big enough for you to find yourself caught in if you actively move during a fight?
Without engaging these core gameplay tools, overland fails to teach players how to use them and fails to engage players who are already used to content that demands this level of interaction. ESO is a fun game to play, but when the standard fights don't even try to ask anything of you in these areas, I could get a similar or better experience elsewhere.- Forgettable bosses. With the One Tamriel update, every zone in the game was brought onto the same level. This is great, since before with zone's being tiered to level ranges if you out-leveled a zone you enjoyed then you had to leave to keep leveling, but not too fast else you enter a zone above your level and hit the artificial difficulty of enemies dodging attacks. The draw back is every zone could be someone's first zone.
But after clearing their first, or second, or third zone, amassing many skills and decent gear, many players would expect the challenges they face to become more difficult to match their expanding skills. Here your only option is to do group content, solo group content, or do solo arena's. Every zone's story is delivered as if to a new player each time, leaving those who already know what kind of path the plot will take with nothing, since the fights don't engage the player beyond 'deal damage and maybe heal some.'
Now to get this bit out of the way now, rewards. Many people against this idea point to "you just want better loot" as a counterargument. Some ideas have been thrown around by others with varying degrees of commitment that helped fuel these responses, so here is my offer. Slain enemies award more exp to the same ratio that they do between normal and veteran dungeons (compensating for the longer time to kill them, which isn't even enough as is since people would rather farm normal Blackrose for exp rather than vet), and loot dropped by slain enemies or world events would drop one tier higher (green to blue, blue to purple, purple stays purple), and despite the better quality loot people would still farm normal overland for gear because more chances at a drop are better than fewer unless you only need jewelry.
So, the issues are that fights are forgettable, generally seen as a waste of time and avoided, with enemies who don't stand out from one another and with bosses that leave entire year long stories falling flat for some players with anti-climatic endings. I know this would take time to implement, that time is resources, but if they did this then it could be implemented to every zone both present and future and would help people engage with content they wouldn't otherwise ever think to do. So here are some of the steps to do this.
- Implement an option in some menu to enter "vet overland." On toggle, you would be sent to the nearest wayshrine in a vet instance of your current zone and would be free to turn it off at any time. Note that resource nodes, chest, quest, and the like, all wouldn't award more. Just enemies killed, since they are the only place where difficulty would be altered.
- A slight buff to mobs health and damage, enough to make them survive long enough to act and hurt enough to be worth notice.
- Remove worthless skills from enemies.
Don't have tanks leave the fight and let their allies die, only to return a few seconds later to be killed off themselves. Instead, let them use guard more, and chains and roots, plus a healthy amount of armor to make people actually understand why armor pen is a thing.
Take the literally worthless conjurer bubble and replace it with any other summon.
Have necromancers raise multiple undead at once then use an aoe buff rather than a single target one. That would make any fight with multiple necromancers more interesting, more so if there are already some undead in the area.
Have npc healers actually heal. Give the standard healers the same aoe heal some elite mobs have, like the ones in White Gold Tower. Let them use the single target heal without cooldown unless interrupted so they don't waste time trying to do pitiful damage.
Let fire mages summon large fields of fire that deal more damage, encouraging players to work around the hazard rather than just being amused with the fire puddle placed on a random crate away from the fight.
Give frost mage shields the same trait that the druid totems in Selene's web have, encouraging ranged mobs to stack behind it for protection. The AI doesn't need to be overhauled, just passive synergy would be enough.- The equally challenging part would be tweaking bosses. Wouldn't be nearly as impressive as what we see in dungeons, where the dev's have plenty of time to script out each fight, but they wouldn't need to. Finding interesting combinations of mobs plus a boss with an ability that plays to those mobs strengths, or finding a set of abilities that synergize in an interesting way, would be enough to at least make these encounters memorable. Like, say, a necromancer boss that endlessly summons mobs, so their necromancer minions can buff them. Or a frost mage boss summoning spikes of ice that also have the 'projectile shield' ability, providing their minions' protection. If mobs would fit a boss that doesn't have any to begin with, then a simple ability that triggers at the beginning of a fight to summon them in would be enough, no need to even modify the world space. Things of that nature.
Like I said, I understand this is a tired subject and many have already made their call on which side they are on. But please understand, it is fine if people enjoy the content as it is, it is fine if people would like to see it improved, this is how I would see the option added for those interested so that they may enjoy more of the game, and I leave it to the forums to do whatever with.
JJOtterBear wrote: »As long as its optional and does NOT include better rewards, then I say go for it. if people want it for better rewards, then the issue isn't about difficulty, its about reward quality. and as long as One Tamriel isn't rolled back either.
* however, if they did want better rewards, then the way to prevent advantage is that those better rewards could ONLY be used in the vet mode/instance. so if there are vet sets, those sets could not be used in "normal" mode.
basically this can exist, as long as it doesn't change anything for the larger amount of people who enjoy the game the way it already is.
my question though, is what will happen when the people who want this, eventually overcome the difficulty with new sets and power creep, and it becomes to easy for them? because you know it will happen. do we then have to listen to demands for a "nightmare mode" too? where will the line be?
and to be completely honest, i know this is controversial, but I actually really like the idea of casuals and "vets" being separated in their own instances. i don't have fun with people who are not okay with dying. who are obsessed with DPS, who want to speed run everything. let them play together if they want, and let the rest of us just be chill.
JJOtterBear wrote: »As long as its optional and does NOT include better rewards, then I say go for it. if people want it for better rewards, then the issue isn't about difficulty, its about reward quality. and as long as One Tamriel isn't rolled back either.
* however, if they did want better rewards, then the way to prevent advantage is that those better rewards could ONLY be used in the vet mode/instance. so if there are vet sets, those sets could not be used in "normal" mode.
basically this can exist, as long as it doesn't change anything for the larger amount of people who enjoy the game the way it already is.
my question though, is what will happen when the people who want this, eventually overcome the difficulty with new sets and power creep, and it becomes to easy for them? because you know it will happen. do we then have to listen to demands for a "nightmare mode" too? where will the line be?
and to be completely honest, i know this is controversial, but I actually really like the idea of casuals and "vets" being separated in their own instances. i don't have fun with people who are not okay with dying. who are obsessed with DPS, who want to speed run everything. let them play together if they want, and let the rest of us just be chill.
It isn't about the overland being super hard with a major fight every few steps. It's about having enemies matter, where engaging a group of enemies includes me taking time to note who I'm fighting, where I'm fighting them, and reacting accordingly. So long as the enemies don't die so fast that they can't do anything, and they maintain enough damage to be a threat, then they would be able to provide more meaningful encounters, which is the core of the issue I feel.
Hallothiel wrote: », but if not incentivized correctly the whole idea about difficulty options would die rather fast.
But why would it need to be incentivised? Surely the challenge alone would be sufficient, no?
And this is about overland in general, not just dlcs & their quality (or lack of). That is a slightly different discussion.
Hallothiel wrote: », but if not incentivized correctly the whole idea about difficulty options would die rather fast.
But why would it need to be incentivised? Surely the challenge alone would be sufficient, no?
And this is about overland in general, not just dlcs & their quality (or lack of). That is a slightly different discussion.
@Hallothiel
If you go through the collection of threads clamoring for more difficult overland you will find some threads suggesting there should also be greater rewards. Also, player behavior demonstrates the masses of an MMORPG will not do more challenging content if there is not an appropriate reward for it.
Ravensilver wrote: »Is this about re-populating old zones, or is it about making every fight in the open world a WB-quality one?
Honestly, I wouldn't want to have to fight every wolf and bear in an epic, 5-minute-full-of-mechanics fight every two steps, just because I wanted to pick a flower.
I think it would be a good idea to define what is really meant with "overland is too easy".
- Do you want every single mob in the open world to be an epic opponent?
- Or should it be only the bosses in Delves and Dungeons?
- Is it about the quests being too easy? But then, aren't we supposed to be enjoying the *story*, not the fights?
- Why are you not doing the quests, since they are integral to the story? Do you just want a 'Fight Club' kind of game, where you do nothing but fight and fight and fight all day/night, without actually bothering with the content of the game?
- Vet overland? What does that apply to? Everything that moves? All the quests? Every single step? The endboss?
Perhaps we should try to find a common ground there, before we try to find solutions to something that we can't even really agree on, since everyone is experiencing it differently?
And really... why bother playing ESO - a game *driven* by story and quest content - if you aren't interested in story and questing? Wouldn't an ego shooter address that better?
Hallothiel wrote: »Or what happens when people start to find the ‘new hard’ as easy as they find stuff now? And they will - of course they will due to power creep.
JJOtterBear wrote: »JJOtterBear wrote: »As long as its optional and does NOT include better rewards, then I say go for it. if people want it for better rewards, then the issue isn't about difficulty, its about reward quality. and as long as One Tamriel isn't rolled back either.
* however, if they did want better rewards, then the way to prevent advantage is that those better rewards could ONLY be used in the vet mode/instance. so if there are vet sets, those sets could not be used in "normal" mode.
basically this can exist, as long as it doesn't change anything for the larger amount of people who enjoy the game the way it already is.
my question though, is what will happen when the people who want this, eventually overcome the difficulty with new sets and power creep, and it becomes to easy for them? because you know it will happen. do we then have to listen to demands for a "nightmare mode" too? where will the line be?
and to be completely honest, i know this is controversial, but I actually really like the idea of casuals and "vets" being separated in their own instances. i don't have fun with people who are not okay with dying. who are obsessed with DPS, who want to speed run everything. let them play together if they want, and let the rest of us just be chill.
It isn't about the overland being super hard with a major fight every few steps. It's about having enemies matter, where engaging a group of enemies includes me taking time to note who I'm fighting, where I'm fighting them, and reacting accordingly. So long as the enemies don't die so fast that they can't do anything, and they maintain enough damage to be a threat, then they would be able to provide more meaningful encounters, which is the core of the issue I feel.
yes and once you analyze it and figure how to kill them each and every time, and gear accordingly to where they are no longer a threat, then what? we are right back at square one with everything being too easy lol. its a valid question to raise here. because the only reason vet overland is being asked for is because people became too powerful for it. that will happen again, then it'll just come full circle.
JJOtterBear wrote: »Hallothiel wrote: », but if not incentivized correctly the whole idea about difficulty options would die rather fast.
But why would it need to be incentivised? Surely the challenge alone would be sufficient, no?
And this is about overland in general, not just dlcs & their quality (or lack of). That is a slightly different discussion.
@Hallothiel
If you go through the collection of threads clamoring for more difficult overland you will find some threads suggesting there should also be greater rewards. Also, player behavior demonstrates the masses of an MMORPG will not do more challenging content if there is not an appropriate reward for it.
then the issue is not wanting more challenging content, people just want better stuff and are trying to disguise it as a difficulty issue. which then just makes the whole pro-vet argument disingenuous.
Expecting better rewards for the demanded harder content is called being entitled.