Overland Content Feedback Thread

amonengelb16_ESO

mocap wrote: »

Once again a lot of players reason in style: "I don't need it, and therefore no one needs it"
This is extremely selfish.

If ZOS somehow implement overland difficulty, it will be optional. You can keep enjoing casual overland, but why you don't want for other players to enjoy harder version? Can someone explain me this super wierd logic?

In the last weeks my guild and I decided to act just like we did before in other MMOs as in as Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer: Online and GuildWars 2. We do dungeons/overland content just for ourselves to compete in our chosen content.

We just rush and farm overland for used gear, dungeons for experience/skillpoints and Cyrodiil for the fights. Thus, we began to rush solo- and group-dungeons as quick as possible! Some of us tackle world bosses solo and pull out of fights when others join, usually switching spots then because trying alone is more fun for them. As a guild we also pull out of uneven PvP fights in Cyrodiil and usually switch factions because the crown store allows us to do so. This works very good because we are friends with several PvP guilds in other factions. We decided to do overland content like it is understood and presented right now: As very classic MMORPG overland content solely for gear!

SilverBride

mocap wrote: »

Once again a lot of players reason in style: "I don't need it, and therefore no one needs it"
This is extremely selfish.

If ZOS somehow implement overland difficulty, it will be optional. You can keep enjoing casual overland, but why you don't want for other players to enjoy harder version? Can someone explain me this super wierd logic?

It is reasonable and logical for players to stand up against changes they feel would be bad for the game.

Calling something optional does not make it acceptable.

Players would have the option to use a veteran overland but where are the options for those who are not strong enough to choose it?

• Where is the option to not have the playerbase split between normal and veteran overland?
• Where is the option to not lose higher level players from normal overland causing lower level and new players to lose help with World Bosses and Harrowstorms?
• Where is the option for new players to find progressive guilds to join to get stronger if these guilds are spending their time in veteran overland?
• Where is the option for new and low level players to not be locked out of better rewards because they aren't strong enough for veteran overland?
• Where are the options for solo dungeons and trials and PvE Cyrodiil for the rest of the playerbase?

TaSheen

Maybe folks should let the devs worry about all that.

spartaxoxo

Veteran Overland doesn't mean it has to be a separate instance. For example, on the last couple of pages there was a discussion about a debuff slider in the style of LOTRO. They call their slider a "landscape difficulty modifier'" but what it does is give the player a series of debuffs that increase in intensity the higher they set the difficulty on the slider.

They could also bring back adventure zones and have a Q4 system be something there alongside some light questing, especially since they won't be doing a normal story zone dlc there anymore.

I don't know. They have a lot of options to give veteran players a better overland experience.

SilverBride

I agree that Veteran Overland doesn't have to be a separate instance, but that is the ONLY option some posters are pushing for. Even optional, it has drawbacks which I listed some of above.

I am completely supportive of a difficulty slider or debuff or some other means that only affects the individual player and does not split the playerbase. But there are some who don't accept that as a solution.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Veteran Overland doesn't mean it has to be a separate instance. For example, on the last couple of pages there was a discussion about a debuff slider in the style of LOTRO. They call their slider a "landscape difficulty modifier'" but what it does is give the player a series of debuffs that increase in intensity the higher they set the difficulty on the slider.

Just questions for thought. How do they reward a player with a debuff? Do the chests and resource nodes contain more or better stuff if the player has the difficulty slider cranked to "Nightmare"? Likewise, if they offer something easier, does the player get less for having it set to "I'm Too Young To Die"? Chests and resources are shared content now, so if the answer is yes, I guess they will need to instance the chest and resource node loot to prevent abuse. While they are there, should they address the issue of one character doing most of the damage and another doing just enough so they can get loot? If "I'm Too Young To Die" can take down the monsters but "Nightmare" gets premium loot for standing there, is that something that should not happen?

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Veteran Overland doesn't mean it has to be a separate instance. For example, on the last couple of pages there was a discussion about a debuff slider in the style of LOTRO. They call their slider a "landscape difficulty modifier'" but what it does is give the player a series of debuffs that increase in intensity the higher they set the difficulty on the slider.

Just questions for thought. How do they reward a player with a debuff? Do the chests and resource nodes contain more or better stuff if the player has the difficulty slider cranked to "Nightmare"? Likewise, if they offer something easier, does the player get less for having it set to "I'm Too Young To Die"? Chests and resources are shared content now, so if the answer is yes, I guess they will need to instance the loot to prevent abuse. While they are there, should they address the issue of one character doing most of the damage and another doing just enough so they can get loot? If "I'm Too Young To Die" can take down the monsters but "Nightmare" gets premium loot for standing there, is that something that should not happen?

They can have achievements for using it that gives a title and maybe a little house item.

They can let using the slider increase the exp and gold received.

Everyone gets the same boss loot. Already in the game there is people who get rewarded for doing less damage to a boss. It works fine. Don't see why that needs to change because it's the vet player that is doing less damage now.

Everyone gets the same chests.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Veteran Overland doesn't mean it has to be a separate instance. For example, on the last couple of pages there was a discussion about a debuff slider in the style of LOTRO. They call their slider a "landscape difficulty modifier'" but what it does is give the player a series of debuffs that increase in intensity the higher they set the difficulty on the slider.

Just questions for thought. How do they reward a player with a debuff? Do the chests and resource nodes contain more or better stuff if the player has the difficulty slider cranked to "Nightmare"? Likewise, if they offer something easier, does the player get less for having it set to "I'm Too Young To Die"? Chests and resources are shared content now, so if the answer is yes, I guess they will need to instance the loot to prevent abuse. While they are there, should they address the issue of one character doing most of the damage and another doing just enough so they can get loot? If "I'm Too Young To Die" can take down the monsters but "Nightmare" gets premium loot for standing there, is that something that should not happen?

They can have achievements for using it that gives a title and maybe a little house item.

They can let using the slider increase the exp and gold received.

Everyone gets the same boss loot. Already in the game there is people who get rewarded for doing less damage to a boss. It works fine. Don't see why that needs to change because it's the vet player that is doing less damage now.

Everyone gets the same chests.

So another thought that I had. People want harder overland, so obviously, they are going to be spending more time killing harder monsters. Say a nice pack of wolves in Glenumbra now takes 30 seconds to dispatch in "Nightmare" mode. What happens when someone in "I'm Too Young To Die" mode breezes through there, one shots them, and moves on to the next pack of wolves? Overland isn't harder when someone else comes along and kills everything for you.

Sure, that can happen to day, but look what happens when someone leaves a chest or resource node partially looted. People get very ... opinionated about how others should behave around them in the game. Are we going to see people getting mad because people "ruin" their hard overland combat by killing the monsters in easy mode before they can? If there was a slider, it seems to me that this would happen a lot more. How does ZOS fix this, if not with a separate zone?

spartaxoxo

It's gonna happen, even with a separate instances, but probably not often enough to be a problem. Well maybe when it first drops and everyone floods the zones, but afterwards it should be fine. The devs already keep the older zones instances populated in such a way that it's easy to find help but you don't run into a ton of people other people constantly. Their idea of a healthy zone population is already one where players aren't fighting over resources constantly.

The ones that only have a single instance are that way because they have a low population. If it already takes a long time to get help or see anyone else in the low population zones, they aren't going to be blowing up people's mobs often either.

SilverBride

As long as there are other players in the same area at the same time there is a possibility that someone may help kill a mob not knowing the other player didn't want help. This is just as likely to happen in a veteran overland as a normal one and is just a consequence of playing a MMO.

It is not more likely to happen with a slider any more than it does now, because there is already a wide range of players from new players to vets running around overland as it is.

spartaxoxo

I also don't think it will happen as often because I imagine a lot of vet players will want to use the slider, and they're the ones that do the one-shotting.

Many players are hitting at or slightly above the strength of the companions. And the companions don't one shot anything. They specifically capped their power level the way they did because if they allowed it any higher they'd out damage a decent portion of the playerbase and they didn't want companions replacing players in those groups. This is also why companions don't play mechanics perfectly.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

As long as there are other players in the same area at the same time there is a possibility that someone may help kill a mob not knowing the other player didn't want help. This is just as likely to happen in a veteran overland as a normal one and is just a consequence of playing a MMO.

It is not more likely to happen with a slider any more than it does now, because there is already a wide range of players from new players to vets running around overland as it is.

I do think we will be more likely to see it. We are also more likely to see a different form of the interaction. The difference is who is being "helped".

Lower level characters might be struggling with the overland content. This is mainly a problem in crowds when taking down an overland boss if the low level character cannot must enough DPS to be one of the chosen few who get drops from the boss. Yes, this sucks, but they will get better and as they do, so will their DPS, and they will be able to get their rewards. Overland low level characters have little reason to complain about some high level character "helping" them at other times.

However, sometimes high level players can get testy when they are helped by lower level ones, and that will happen a lot more with sliders than with independent zones. Today, we see it with people who solo bosses, but with sliders, more content will be like that. Additionally, a player in "Nightmare" mode in a group of players at a boss may not get a drop, but these players won't get better until they turn off "Nightmare" mode. Sure, they can wait around until the crowd clears, but they have self-nerfed, and if the crowd is large enough, there is no prize for them.

If a player self-nerfs, they are there because they want harder content. Having someone complete that for them defeats the purpose.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

...sometimes high level players can get testy when they are helped by lower level ones, and that will happen a lot more with sliders than with independent zones.

I think it would happen a lot less often because the player using the slider will now become one of the lower level players themselves.

Regardless, this is just how it is in MMOs. Other players can and will sometimes attack the same mob. Neither a separate veteran overland or a slider is going to change that.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

...sometimes high level players can get testy when they are helped by lower level ones, and that will happen a lot more with sliders than with independent zones.

I think it would happen a lot less often because the player using the slider will now become one of the lower level players themselves.

Regardless, this is just how it is in MMOs. Other players can and will sometimes attack the same mob. Neither a separate veteran overland or a slider is going to change that.

I see it as a mindset sort of thing. I don't see experienced veteran players using the slider to make themselves weaker because they want to be weaker. Instead, I see it being because they want the game to be more challenging. They would still think of themselves as being powerful. I expect that they would, after nerfing themselves, try to beat the game into submission, again.

I would not expect that they would consider themselves to be a lower level player. If anything, the goal would be the opposite.

As a matter of fact, I am reasonably certain that even with a "Nightmare" mode, there will be some players who feel it is not enough because overland is still to easy. That is until we get to the point where every mudcrab in Tamriel is a World Boss. (While I am sure the mudcrabs would enjoy that, the players might not)

Yes, I realize that this does not apply to everyone, but I think it would apply to enough.

SilverBride

I think a slider is the best they can hope for because they have been pretty clear about not wanting to divide the playerbase.

Jinazai

SilverBride wrote: »

Jinazai wrote: »

Earlier in the game you had to kite around to take out the mages and ranged, block and dodge and utilize the environment. But its now all avoidable with brute force.

Earlier in the game players weren't leveled and geared and didn't have Champion Points and experience, so of course it was more difficult for them then.

A powerful character will find overland easy. This is logical and expected.

Overland is not supposed to be difficult forever.

There is something inbetween difficult and mindnumblingly easy.
As stated by myself and others. Without the gear and cp slotted its still extremely easy.
It was more difficult because it was objectivly harder, they have lowerd the difficulty several times since launch.

AlexanderDeLarge

SilverBride wrote: »

One Tamriel removed difficult overland almost 7 years ago and it's been very successful ever since.

And ESO does not offer choice in every other aspect of the game. There are no solo dungeons or trials, or a non PvP Cyrodiil.

Some content is focused on some things, others on other things, all to give choices to accommodate the different playstyles. But it is not fair or reasonable to customize every single aspect of the game to just one playstyle.

I don't know where solo dungeons and trials and non-PvP Cyrodiil came from but that's a hell of a false equivalence against veteran overland PvE content. Veteran phasing exists for every other PvE aspect of the game. Dungeons, trials and arenas. Again, drawing the line at overland is both arbitrary and convenient.

Also I fail to see the concern over 'splitting the community' when without some form of difficulty scaling, many of us aren't playing the game period. That means less people engaging in group content and the economy. Perhaps if we had these people playing the game, PUGs would be a thing again for activities that are practically dead for the public and the economy wouldn't be as inflated as it is now. Something that would actually help the people you're trying to defend.

I'm not baiting. Merely stating a fact that by not addressing the widespread concerns over lack of difficulty in this game that have been extremely popular within and outside these forums, there's less people playing the game and that impacts the playerbase far more than the hypothetical scenario you're concerned about.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

I think a slider is the best they can hope for because they have been pretty clear about not wanting to divide the playerbase.

Aside from the players completely divided from the game by virtue of not playing it, or those who play it but only to go to banks to do writs/group for pre-scheduled content/queue for pvp. Those players contribute nothing to your concern of the player base being divided because they contribute nothing to the world if they're even in it.

You mentioned the concerns of players who would want to engage in vet overland but are 'not strong enough to choose it.' Guess what, they would go into it, take some hits, and learn. And if more experienced players are there, they have a larger than normal zone chance of finding knowledgeable players. You learn nothing when everything is a cakewalk, so that is the place people would go to learn. I only became a decent player I'd say after doing vMA, I swore off dpsing for friends because of how bad I felt dragging the team down and that was my challenge to overcome to prove I wouldn't be a burden. Facing challenging content is a better teacher than having literally every zone be a beginner zone.

You also show concern about the loss of higher level players, acting both as if those players would be forced away if ZOS were to use instances, which as a choice they wouldn't be, and there are also other players around still. When I was doing my silver and gold zones the questing was often quiet, which I prefer, but whenever a dolmen came down there were always a sizable number of players there, all weaker compared to the content but coming together to overcome it. Newer, less experienced players can do that too, and maybe form longer lasting bonds with players in a similar situation as them rather than just "some pro player just came by and solo'ed the boss, and I watched!" which has a significantly lesser chance of any sort of long-lasting interaction, speaking from plenty of personal experience here.

The only topic of 'better rewards' I've personally pushed is increased exp, and higher quality loot drops from enemies (not legendary gear). These are both because they are the standard everywhere else in all other pve content, and also act as compensation for time. If two players spend an hour questing, the player on the easier difficulty will kill more enemies and finish more quest, so it is compensation to the other player that the gear and exp they get is higher, so they don't fall behind. Newer players who don't care about power leveling or gear wouldn't care about these 'better rewards,' and as mentioned earlier if they want to learn they'll be in a place where they're getting better gear, so that way they have a consistent, solo player source of getting good quality gear.

And if we're fighting so hard against giving one group of players an option to enjoy content in the game differently, why would ZOS ever entertain the idea of adding any other if this is the kind of push back it receives? If you want the game to imporve, you need to be willing to accept things will change, if you want one group of players to be listened to, you won't help their case by trying to silence other groups. We're on the same side, we both want ESO to last and to see ZOS succeed, there is nothing to 'win' here, just feedback from players who would like to see the game do better, and those saying 'it's fine' and to deal with it.

AlexanderDeLarge

SilverBride wrote: »

• Where is the option to not have the playerbase split between normal and veteran overland? Response: For all this 'concern' about splitting the community, this is alienating a massive contingent of prospective and former players that aren't logging in period.
• Where is the option to not lose higher level players from normal overland causing lower level and new players to lose help with World Bosses and Harrowstorms? Response: I'm not doing those because I'm not logging in because it's absolutely ridiculous to assume that I would play a game where the overwhelming majority of the content is not enjoyable to me.
• Where is the option for new players to find progressive guilds to join to get stronger if these guilds are spending their time in veteran overland? Response: You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame. I have friends still playing the game that complain about not being able to PUG trials like they used to with ease around the clock in 2021 as a result of the infamous balance passes of 2022. As to address the actual point: who are these absolute saints going around teaching new players how to weave using public text chat? Aren't they just watching a YouTube video like everyone else? If we're talking about group content, how would that be affected whatsoever?
• Where is the option for new and low level players to not be locked out of better rewards because they aren't strong enough for veteran overland? Response: Why are you arbitrarily drawing the line at veteran overland when it comes to 'better reward tiers'? It was completely fine when they did it for veteran dungeons, trials and arenas.
• Where are the options for solo dungeons and trials and PvE Cyrodiil for the rest of the playerbase? Response: False equivalence. Every other PvE aspect of the game has a veteran toggle.

Also I just want to highlight, for all the concern about splitting the playerbase between normal and veteran overlands, NPC companions exist now and that would actually be a creative way of utilizing them. One of the thousands of ways the game has changed since the days of Craglorn Silver/Gold and this would help the unskilled (for lack of a better term) solo players you're concerned about into the higher difficulty tier to get those rewards.

Just playing devil's advocate because I'm not even asking for veteran overland at this point, I just want a difficulty slider.

TaSheen

mocap wrote: »

[snip]

Not 100% true. I'm fine with optional. At this point, I'm fine with somewhat harder overland as well. I'm a seriously casual player - yes, I play a lot of hours every day, but questing and overland are all I'm really interested in.

Of course, I'm also a serious minority....

[edited to remove quote]

SilverBride

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

Similarly, if all the PVP players leave, ZOS doesn't have to fix Cyrodiil.

Agenericname

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

Similarly, if all the PVP players leave, ZOS doesn't have to fix Cyrodiil.

Well, Id guess that there more overlap between Cyrodiil and PvPers than there is between "end gamers" and overland. A lot more.

You dont have to be an end game player to feel like overland is broken. In fact, Id guess that many of the people that left may not have been intested in it at all.

AlexanderDeLarge

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

So they should just simply do nothing and continue to cater exclusively to new users with more content/features that will be abandoned in favor of new content and features to continue selling the game?

Because I can flip this kind of statement right back around, if what ZOS were doing with The Elder Scrolls Online was working, why would they change the year's roadmap as of this year? Straw finally broke the camel's back. In my opinion, too little way too damn late as they should have dedicated a quarter to maintaining content and systems already in the game five years ago but there's still a lot of potential recovering those users who left and making sure current and future players have a better experience. It's not like the complaints about lack of difficulty will ever go away without some sort of system to address it. Talk about the game anywhere, it's brought up every single time along with 'clunky combat'.

AlexanderDeLarge

All of this highlights what I've always said about the buy2play business model, new content/features used to market and sell the game to new users endlessly take priority over maintaining what's already in the game and unless the developer slows themselves down, the game will inevitably stagnate and The Elder Scrolls Online most certainly did stagnate. Anyone with a brain in their skulls could have guessed that the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online would be the end result of nearly half the game's lifespan being dedicated to the "Year of the ___" format featuring Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4 content releases.

When you're releasing content every quarter it leaves very little room to do more important things like maintaining what's already there. They're finally doing what they should have done from the start of Tamriel Unlimited or at least by Summerset, I just wish it came a lot sooner. I just hope that the game has a brighter future going forward and their next MMO will be spared from the mistakes made on this one.

Elsonso

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

So they should just simply do nothing and continue to cater exclusively to new users with more content/features that will be abandoned in favor of new content and features to continue selling the game?

I think that is a given, right? It is their only public metric regarding the health of the game.

SilverBride

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

So they should just simply do nothing and continue to cater exclusively to new users with more content/features that will be abandoned in favor of new content and features to continue selling the game?

Because I can flip this kind of statement right back around, if what ZOS were doing with The Elder Scrolls Online was working, why would they change the year's roadmap as of this year? Straw finally broke the camel's back. In my opinion, too little way too damn late as they should have dedicated a quarter to maintaining content and systems already in the game five years ago but there's still a lot of potential recovering those users who left and making sure current and future players have a better experience. It's not like the complaints about lack of difficulty will ever go away without some sort of system to address it. Talk about the game anywhere, it's brought up every single time along with 'clunky combat'.

What they were doing was working but after 9 years of adding more and more quests it was time to slow that down some. But this has nothing to do with how easy or difficult overland is perceived to be.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

Isn't this exactly the situation you and many others found yourselves in before one-tamriel? Like, exactly the same? And ZOS recognized players leaving as a bad thing and addressed it? Why, again, is it such a horrid thought, something so 'unfair,' as you would put it, for a player base you don't identify with to get some attention, yet when things are done that directly benefit you then it's worth it and good for the game? What if ZOS did a purely pvp update, with nothing but bug fixes going your way while they did major things to their longest ignored community, would that be unfair? Would there be arguments against it?

But no, we should sit idly by and let this habit of ignoring groups of players continue to fester, so people keep leaving ESO because that doesn't matter until it impacts you and your friends, because hey, if everyone asking for something leave you don't need to do it anymore.

So myself and AlexanderDeLarge both provided a list of rebuttals to your points, would you care to comment on those responses and their impact on the game at large?

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You're pretending as if there wasn't a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame.

If that many end game players really left the game then there are even fewer players left to utilize a separate veteran overland if there was one.

Isn't this exactly the situation you and many others found yourselves in before one-tamriel? Like, exactly the same?

No it's not. I was responding to someone who said that there was "a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame". They did not say these players left because overland was too easy.

AlexanderDeLarge

SilverBride wrote: »

No it's not. I was responding to someone who said that there was "a mass exodus of veteran PvE players JUST THIS YEAR due to changes made to the endgame". They did not say these players left because overland was too easy.

Yet anywhere, almost anytime the game is brought up in casual conversation, you hear and see the same complaints about lack of difficulty and clunky combat. I'd argue those are the two biggest complaints against the game aside from monetizing the crafting bag and loot boxes. It's not just a vocal minority here. and I feel like I'm saying this so often (and it's always ignored) that I'm just going to put it in my signature too so that way it's harder to ignore.

It's important to note that it's not only veteran players who notice the lack of difficulty either as someone else brought up on the last page. I have friends and acquaintances who see me playing the game on Discord and various other forums that have asked me personally if questing ever gets more challenging. What am I supposed to do? Lie to them to keep them playing a game I had to quit myself over the same issue?

Like I said earlier, doing nothing as you suggest is far more harmful to the playerbase than potentially splitting overland instances because we're not logging in anyways. Why do you want to force us to play a version of the game we don't enjoy? Assuming there's a sizable portion of players that still do in the first place? Meanwhile more players = lower prices, probably cheaper gold:crown exchange rates, more PUGs for trials that are for all intents and purposes dead outside of guild runs and quicker group finding. Funny how much harm is done to the community that remains in the name of 'protecting them'.