Overland Content Feedback Thread

Jinazai

Made my own thread before being made aware of this one, so just going to put my feedback in aswell.

I've played the game since day one, at that point there was a lot of complaints that the game was too hard. I could understand their point to some degree with specific monster in open world. The ones i avoided most was Harvesters, to me they were mini-bosses. But what i liked most at that time was that the story-bosses often had some mechanis to them and was bulky enough that you couldnt just ignore it and power through. I've played through the same vanilly quests later on and now they barely get through their evil monologue before they're dead. With all the down tuning and power-creep there is absolutely no challenge what so ever, every monster becomes the same as you wont even have time to notice their differences. Even if the story-mode bosses in the later chapters have been bulkier they are still very much just tank and spank. The risk of dying is zero.

Heck i even walked around with my character with nothing else on but a weapon and i barely noticed any difference.

So i was thinking about if it would be possible to set a personal difficulty to your character. Which could work even in an open-world environment by applying debuffs of different strenghts on yourself, like:

+50% / 100% / 150% More damage taken.
-25% / 50% Less damage delt.

(For me personally i wouldnt mind just having the extra difficulty, but one could reward those that do with a small extra gain of xp for example.)

I dont know how solo content can easily we changed but there you could maybe add some other additionally type of difficulties which wouldnt be possible in an open world. Lke:

* Stronger tier monsters.
* Bigger spawn groups.
* Insane story-mode bosses.

I love the game but i often get bored with it and taking longer breaks before i return. At this point i barely consider the open-world questing a game anymore but an interactive picture book.

Anumaril

Yeah I'll agree with the overland content being far too easy. Personal difficulty sliders would be the best option to go with in my opinion, even though it's not what I personally would want (the groundwork for this is already there with One Tamriel, so it can be done without affecting others' experience).

Like others have also mentioned on the thread, I'd personally hope that overland content could be a bit more challenging as well other than simple +health and +damage buffs to enemies. Interesting mechanics to play against would be fantastic, and having the enemies be generally more intelligent with how they approach trying to kill me would be so much better than a flat buff.

Of course, this would mean that difficulty sliders are out of the question. You can't have the same enemy use abilities on one player and not others — it would be a mess no matter how you go about it. So the solution would HAVE to be either a universal difficulty increase (based on level + equipment quality so that low level players don't have it especially hard or anything).

Alternatively, there could be sharded instances of each zone for players that enable the difficult overland option in the settings menu. So you can opt in if you want.

But however it's implemented, overland really needs a difficulty increase asap. One of my favourite things is questing, but it's so ridiculously easy that I have resorted to nerfing myself in the most absurd ways to make it even slightly challenging. This includes using only my weakest abilities, using low level green/white gear, not using any Warfare champion points or defensive Fitness champion points, and limiting my use of companions (who I also nerf before beginning to quest).

This style of questing makes the experience more enjoyable overall, yet also has severe drawbacks in the form of the combat "fun" factor. No good gear means no interesting sets, no CP means no interesting CP abilities/buffs, heavily limited skills means I can't use some skills that are interesting to use because they kill overland enemies too damn quickly. It's more enjoyable overall, but it's not particularly "fun".

In sum: I'd like to have to think twice whenever I see a pack of enemies larger than 3. I'd like to have to plan my attack strategy whenever I come across a boss fight during a quest instead of spamming 1 spell and killing them in 4 seconds. I'd like to die occasionally and adjust my strategy for the situation. I'd like to actually feel the need to use potions when in combat. I'd like to use the full roster of my skills and still struggle, instead of intentionally nerfing myself to the ground and still hardly struggling at all. I'd like to feel part of the world instead of like a living god strolling through it.

Jinazai

Anumaril wrote: »

Like others have also mentioned on the thread, I'd personally hope that overland content could be a bit more challenging as well other than simple +health and +damage buffs to enemies. Interesting mechanics to play against would be fantastic, and having the enemies be generally more intelligent with how they approach trying to kill me would be so much better than a flat buff..

Some of that is already there, we just dont notice it because they die too quickly. Earlier in the game you had to kite around to take out the mages and ranged, block and dodge and utilize the environment. But its now all avoidable with brute force.

SilverBride

Jinazai wrote: »

Earlier in the game you had to kite around to take out the mages and ranged, block and dodge and utilize the environment. But its now all avoidable with brute force.

Earlier in the game players weren't leveled and geared and didn't have Champion Points and experience, so of course it was more difficult for them then.

A powerful character will find overland easy. This is logical and expected.

Overland is not supposed to be difficult forever.

AlexanderDeLarge

Overland PvE content is expected to be enjoyable from a storytelling and gameplay perspective in a game that has kept the level cap and gear cap the same since 2014. Isn't that the entire point of horizontal progression? To maintain a consistent power level and balance around it so that the entire game is viable, relevant and enjoyable for all players? Fact is they botched the intended experience with exponential power creep and now we're still hearing about Rich Lambert's unchanged opinion from 2014 before One Tamriel and even the Champion Point system itself.

If ZOS disagrees and this is the intended experience (which I highly doubt), I welcome them to sell future chapters piecemeal. Sell the trial for 5 dollars. Sell the class for 10. Sell the zone's campaign for $25. Because if you're expecting me to spend $40 on yearly expansion packs where the vast majority of "content" is me listening to quest dialog about how big and scary Intimidating Monsterface is, hopping on a horse, riding to his lair, clearing the whole place out in less time than it took to ride there and killing him with three light attacks... Then it ain't happening.

As I requested earlier, can we just establish that the game has received 35 game-changing updates including five retail expansion packs and 22 DLCs to date, including A Realm Reborn-style relaunch of the game featuring a complete overhaul to leveling, enemy scaling and endgame progression as a matter of fact? Because if we can agree on that, then it should logically follow that anecdotes about Cadwell Silver/Gold from nearly a decade ago are completely irrelevant.

AlexanderDeLarge

Zenimax Online Studios spent the better part of the decade marketing The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited at every media event they've been a part of as a completely overhauled experience worth revisiting and get new users who heard bad things about The Elder Scrolls Online's disastrous launch but Rich wants to trot out ancient history when it's convenient?

Can't have it both ways... And why would you want to in the face of an overwhelming consensus of dissatisfied customers that have agreed that the game is too damn easy? Why dig your heels into the ground when I'm here practically begging for something as simple as a debuff memento so I can start enjoying the game again?

spartaxoxo

Their play data shows that the vast majority of players enjoy the story content. Which makes sense, because they have actively cultivated a casual audience since One Tamriel's launch. Every game tries to draw in a particular type of audience e.g people who like PvP or more casual players. And this game has drawn in more casual players who enjoy the "play how you want" fantasy that this game offers with it's ease and focus on story and exploration.

It doesn't mean that they should do nothing. They have all kinds of content that caters to smaller subsets of the playerbase like housing, pvp, etc. So, I don't agree with them that their best course of action is to make no changes.

But, that's what they are looking at, their internal data that shows the vast majority of the players enjoy the story content.

This was asked a couple of years ago at this point. And it wasn't about Vet Overland but a general question about what kind of content players want/enjoy. But I think it explains a lot as to why Rich's last answer was basically the same thing they've been saying for years.

What would you say players want today?

Lambert: The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

AlexanderDeLarge

I get it and I sympathize with the business aspect of things but they've catered almost exclusively to new players picking up the game for the first time for far too long. The opposite is no better, ask anyone who played Wildstar or Heart of Thorns in Guild Wars 2 or even Destiny right now for a more recent example. Striking a balance between casual/hardcore, new users/veterans who have a 1,000+ hours in the game is absolutely the way to go for a game like this.

If complaints about a lack of difficulty in overland content are as inevitable as they seem to be since we're hearing more and more people talk about it and becoming increasingly pissed off about it as the years go by, why not address it instead of digging their heels into the ground by either ignoring what is being said or shutting all conversation down using an incredibly flawed and out of date counterargument from nearly a decade ago? It comes off as incredibly out of touch and disingenuous. Meanwhile they're torching an otherwise valuable relationship with their customers that would be advocating the game to friends, family and randoms online to the ground.

I get that it's a buy2play game and by nature of the business, they're going to be seeking new players and by selling yearly standalone expansion packs, you always want a marketable feature but sometimes you gotta perform upkeep to maintain what you already have instead of releasing the hot new thing and I've never seen another MMORPG disregard its existing users like this for this long despite such overwhelming feedback.

SilverBride

I'm a veteran player with a lot of hours played and I am perfectly happy with overland just as it is. Being a veteran player is not synonymous with wanting to struggle through the story.

Cersenin

As a veteran player, if there is no challenge in doing quests, there is no fun. I feel like a daedric prince... If I cast one AoE spell, all of Tamriel will burn to ashes, so it's not fun, it gets boring… I really like the stories, but when I am doing quests it's like I am reading a book, or I am watching a video. I really want a good challenge when I am confronting an NPC or a final boss that wants to destroy the world. Plus, I want to be glad that I have my companion, armored and leveled up, to help me when doing quests.

colossalvoids

Personally I just want the gameplay to fit given narrative, nothing more than that. If the premise is some over the top danger from Oblivion it should be at least moderately challenging. Currently it's more akin to watching a mediocre theatrical play, which are generally making me fall asleep or to shift my focus to something more engaging. It should be extremely well written if the gameplay isn't supporting said narrative at all, but as is it needs gameplay as a support really bad.

Would love a spiced up versions of current main quest lines so there would be at least some reason to replay them.

MaleAmazon

We should get an optional difficulty setting (or several) that debuffs our characters so that overland content can be challenging for those of use who have very strong characters, without in any way affecting anyone else. Period. Really, it cannot even be hard to implement in some basic form, since we already have buffs / debuffs via food, enemy attacks etc.

And for those who say "you can debuff your own character by putting on crap gear, not use CP blah blah". I´ve done that. I played Elsweyr with a brand new character, deliberately not using banked gear etc, and... it makes a difference, but not nearly enough. Also it´s a bit wrong.

And yes, I am aware that this horse is now beaten so hard that its atoms have split into separate elementary particles. We´re working our way towards quarks at this point.

SilverBride

amonengelb16_ESO wrote: »

Challanges are about risk and reward. And these players will leave this game once they can grab Diablo 4, Path of Exile 2 and the new Elden Ring DLC.

If that is the type of game they prefer then that is what they should do.

ESO isn't that type of game. It doesn't have to be because there are many players that enjoy a casual play how you want game that will stick with this one.

amonengelb16_ESO

Cersenin wrote: »

As a veteran player, if there is no challenge in doing quests, there is no fun. [...]

Yes, I'm also playing this game since beta 2014 and I extremely hate leveling alts. Most of the game will get purely trivial overland and main quest as a veteran player – which is just sad as its hard to take the game serious as the voice acts try to deliver. There is no fun in doing the game's quests beside listening to the voice acts.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I just want the gameplay to fit given narrative, nothing more than that. If the premise is some over the top danger from Oblivion it should be at least moderately challenging. Currently it's more akin to watching a mediocre theatrical play, which are generally making me fall asleep or to shift my focus to something more engaging. [...]

I worked at the theater! Thus signing this overseen comment as it describes the current gameplay situation.

olsborg

Overland has 2 main painpoints that make them not worth playing, at all.

Too easy...theres no challenge in it.
Very few or no rewards for doing it apart from xp wich is easier to get in other ways, and as I said, no challenge in it.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

amonengelb16_ESO wrote: »

Challanges are about risk and reward. And these players will leave this game once they can grab Diablo 4, Path of Exile 2 and the new Elden Ring DLC.

If that is the type of game they prefer then that is what they should do.

ESO isn't that type of game. It doesn't have to be because there are many players that enjoy a casual play how you want game that will stick with this one.

Everywhere else in the game offers choice to accommodate more players. This is something ZOS is more than capable of doing. Just like how you were discontent pre-one tamriel many players are discontent post-one tamriel for the same reason, for you things were too tedious and for us things are too simplistic. For us the story and world are devalued when it is so clear gameplay wise there is no substance behind world ending threats or periless lands, so why is it that overland should not offer choice?

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

amonengelb16_ESO wrote: »

Challanges are about risk and reward. And these players will leave this game once they can grab Diablo 4, Path of Exile 2 and the new Elden Ring DLC.

If that is the type of game they prefer then that is what they should do.

ESO isn't that type of game. It doesn't have to be because there are many players that enjoy a casual play how you want game that will stick with this one.

Everywhere else in the game offers choice to accommodate more players. This is something ZOS is more than capable of doing. Just like how you were discontent pre-one tamriel many players are discontent post-one tamriel for the same reason, for you things were too tedious and for us things are too simplistic. For us the story and world are devalued when it is so clear gameplay wise there is no substance behind world ending threats or periless lands, so why is it that overland should not offer choice?

ESO offers the choice to participate in any or all of the content it provides.

CP5

So, for people who came explicitly to ESO because of the elder scrolls branding, and world, and lore, who want to participate in that world, "you don't get choice, go back to dungeons and trials or just go to another game." That wasn't the mentality ZOS had when they made one tamriel to better align the game with a larger player base, and since everywhere else in the game offers choice, for playing each particular piece, why should overland be omitted from offering choice to allow more players to meaningfully engage with it?

SilverBride

One Tamriel removed difficult overland almost 7 years ago and it's been very successful ever since.

And ESO does not offer choice in every other aspect of the game. There are no solo dungeons or trials, or a non PvP Cyrodiil.

Some content is focused on some things, others on other things, all to give choices to accommodate the different playstyles. But it is not fair or reasonable to customize every single aspect of the game to just one playstyle.

TaSheen

If more difficult overland is optional, it's not customized to "just one playstyle". Now I must state that I don't expect that "optional" is anything ZOS will be interested in doing, but the case is that nearly everyone (with a few notable holdouts wanting ramped up difficulty across the board) discussing this IS talking about optional from various directions.

I'm not much fussed any more one way or the other. U35 and U36, plus Oakensoul and gear tweaks, made my characters actually much more viable no matter what they're facing - five or six mobs in DLC delves, or DLC delve bosses (which before I was simply not able to handle due mostly to mega ping). I'm still not able to solo WBs or dungeons - and I am definitely not looking forward to more chapter bosses like the last few - but I'm done worrying about it.

I'll deal with whatever happens.

SilverBride

It doesn't matter if it's optional or not, it would still have to be created to accommodate one particular playstyle. If they aren't also adding solo dungeons and trials and PvE Cyrodiil this would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.

CP5

"A particular play style." When, again, all other pieces of pve content aside from overland offer choice to accommodate more players, and it isn't a matter of "play style," it's a matter of the content not being able to meaningfully engage a large number of players. You like to say "It would be unfair for you guys to get an option," when what, doing nothing would be more fair? Is it more fair to write off people who want to enjoy the world of tamriel because they simply want to have a different gameplay experience than you?

Because if ZOS dedicating resources to help individual sections of the player base, sort of like with the card game and companions, is seen as unfair, then there better be denouncements for 'story mode dungeons' and 'pve cyrodiil' in the future, because why would ZOS want to enable more players to engage with a wider breath of content in their game, when they can instead tell people to go to their corners and if they aren't happy there to just leave. That mentality doesn't help ESO in the long term, and your own satisfaction with the current state of the content does nothing to discredit others who are dissatisfied.

Elsonso

CP5 wrote: »

So, for people who came explicitly to ESO because of the elder scrolls branding, and world, and lore, who want to participate in that world, "you don't get choice, go back to dungeons and trials or just go to another game." That wasn't the mentality ZOS had when they made one tamriel to better align the game with a larger player base, and since everywhere else in the game offers choice, for playing each particular piece, why should overland be omitted from offering choice to allow more players to meaningfully engage with it?

If I am understanding you correctly... That was the original purpose of ALTS. ESO was more like the single player games in the past where if you wanted to experience the game again, you started a new game, not a "New Game+", in the form of an alt. One Tamriel provided that players would be free to create those alts in any class, race, or alliance and not be blocked from doing PVE content with friends in who were in a different alliance. No where in One Tamriel is the promise that overland will always be a challenge, as that was never the purpose of overland in One Tamriel.

spartaxoxo

I support debuff difficulty sliders for Overland for the same reason I support Solo mode Dungeons, I think it's good if there is more choices.

I think the difficulty level of both these aren't really meeting the needs of a good portion of the playerbase.

I don't support a separate instance for reasons I don't want to get back into, but I do think something needs to be done. Something like a LOTRO slider can protect the current experience while still making Overland more interesting for those for whom it's too easy to be enjoyable.

I actually currently enjoy Overland the way it is sometimes (and sometimes I do feel it's too easy, especially when fighting story bosses) but that's only because I also enjoy stuff like Tales from the Borderlands and Life is Strange. The Overland gives a good walking sim type game if you're into that type of game, but it doesn't really feel like an action RPG that much anymore once you hit a certain power level.

Ironically, I can really only enjoy the story quests in this game when I don't feel like playing with ESO's combat system. It took me weeks to beat this year's storyline as a result. I had more fun doing events and group content. I actually do appreciate those "can you remind" me dialogue prompts as a result.

SilverBride

When I think of an action RPG I think of first person shooters. I never thought of ESO as being in that category.

TaSheen

Considering the combat, it IS an action MMORPG. I'm not very happy about that personally because of aging reflexes and mega sat ping, but - it is what it is.

I don't like the combat, so I do as little of it as possible.

SilverBride

I think of ESO as more story based. Yes there is combat but the story is a major focus.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

I think of ESO as more story based. Yes there is combat but the story is a major focus.

The story is certainly a major focus. I agree there. But story is important in many action RPGs. ESO is a game that I personally think feels like an action RPG when first starting the game. And it continues to feel like one in all instanced combat, pk pvp, and at some world events and world bosses. I personally feel like it really only loses that when in engaged in non-combat activities like housing and Tales, or when engaging in Overland as a high geared character. But that's just how I feel about it.

mocap

Once again a lot of players reason in style: "I don't need it, and therefore no one needs it"
This is extremely selfish.

If ZOS somehow implement overland difficulty, it will be optional. You can keep enjoing casual overland, but why you don't want for other players to enjoy harder version? Can someone explain me this super wierd logic?

Elsonso

mocap wrote: »

If ZOS somehow implement overland difficulty, it will be optional. You can keep enjoing casual overland, but why you don't want for other players to enjoy harder version? Can someone explain me this super wierd logic?

We cannot be sure of that.

Edit: And I want to point out an observation. For as much as we can be "sure", we are more sure that they won't be changing overland difficulty than we are sure that they would make it optional, if they did.