800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

Cireous

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it? Or, is the reality of it that they too, maybe even unconsciously, are just as bored of things as everyone else? Why else would all of this time be spent HERE instead of in the beloved 90% of the game, where one can freely pick flowers and read books without being hassled by video game mechanics WITHIN A VIDEOGAME? I don't know, I could be wrong. Perhaps, day-after-day, one just tabs in and out of the Overland's mostly pressure-free harvesting and reading simulator to militantly defend the joy of it all in the forums.
2. No matter what anyone believes regarding the "popularity" of a mostly unengaging combat experience while questing, its something that by the very nature of innovation within the existing MMO paradigm is NOT a permanent fixture but, instead, in flux, and I predict the downward shift in this perceived "popularity" is visible on the horizon. It's obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the current trend in up-and-coming MMOs is the creation of a compelling and engaging non-instanced and highly replayable Overland. Game makers are looking at the intriguing levels of lengthy engagement within idolized and treasured Open-world Single Player games and asking themselves, how can we translate the memorability and adventuresome replayability of this experience effectively and addictively into multiplayer games? Also, how can we take what we LOVE about previous MMOs and HATE about previous MMOs and improve upon them? Newer games are notably making a lot of headway in this regard. Evolving and degrading player-governed Nodes or Territories, optional PVE Invasions, optional PVP Wars, Zones and future Zones explicitly designed for higher challenge and greater rewards once the learning curves in the beginner Zones are achieved, harvesting in every Zone remaining relevant forever, questing areas with basic SOLO content directly butting up against questing areas with significantly more challenging (but optional) SOLO content. Class-free or Class-expanding skillsets. Somewhat rare, sought-after resources and items within instance-free and challenging boss encounters inside caves. Higher aggro range and longer leashes for Overland mobs. The list goes on. What was POPULAR or even doable a few years ago has been and will be greatly improved upon. It is up to Zenimax to decide whether or not they want to keep up and increase engagement or mostly just reskin nostalgia-governed gameplay systems for what will inevitably be a smaller and smaller participating audience.
3. I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls Universe. The single player games were the innovations that CHANGED EVERYTHING we thought games could give us. I also LOVE Elder Scrolls Online. Even today, the aesthetics are above and beyond what other games are achieving. I love the textured and uncartoonish realism of it all (granted, I use an ENB to colorize everything, but the fundamentals are in the game). I believe that realism and whatever gameplay mechanics that most mimic realism are both the present and future of gaming. Before you know it, your MMOs will be an ultra realistic, nearly akin to real life experience, except with other people, fighting, looting, interacting with one another and exploring unknown vistas, the very things we fail to get around to doing in our every day lives.
4. I am watching Zenimax incrementally improve upon the systems in this game and would like to remain hopeful they will take a very hard look at how to make Overland more realistically engaging for more people. I just hope its not too late. If it is too late, then so be it. Everything has a beginning and an ending. Maybe the next Bethesda-oriented MMO will be the evolution we want and anticipate it to be.

SilverBride

Cireous wrote: »

I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?

To be fair this question should be presented to players on both sides of the debate.

As for myself, I play every day around 3 to 4 hours on average. I have 3 characters after deleting some I didn't care about and have completed every quest in every zone on 2 of them, and am working on that with the 3rd now, so I spend a lot of time doing the story and side quests. And I still enjoy them very much.

jaws343

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it? Or, is the reality of it that they too, maybe even unconsciously, are just as bored of things as everyone else? Why else would all of this time be spent HERE instead of in the beloved 90% of the game, where one can freely pick flowers and read books without being hassled by video game mechanics WITHIN A VIDEOGAME? I don't know, I could be wrong. Perhaps, day-after-day one just tabs in and out of the Overland's mostly pressure-free harvesting and reading simulator to militantly defend the joy of it all in the forums.
   

To speak personally on that, I have a job which takes up 8 hours of every weekday. A job where I cannot play video games during but I can browse the forums and comment on threads here and there. That doesn't mean I am not playing the game. And in fact play daily, for multiple hours a day and even more on the weekends. So much so that I've completed all overland content in the game. Why would I want the content I've already completed to be more difficult. Its overland, it's mean to be weak.

I remember when they changed the mechanics of Clanfears and made them leap and stun. Single most annoying minor change they've made to the game imo. Easy to avoid, hardly a real problem. But just one extra step of needing to block some overland trash mob to avoid a stun when all I want to do is loot the treasure chest I saw.

xaraan

I haven't kept up with every post in the thread, but I assume the OP is referring the launch of the new mmo and after playing it for quite a bit and nearing the end of leveling I have to say it's not completely accurate to paint the picture of it having challenging overland.

First of all, it has leveled areas, so if you go into an area you aren't leveled and/or geared well for of course it will be hard or even impossible. (I'm no fan of this, I always thought it was silly that I could fight a wolf under my level, walk ten feet into the next zone and find another wolf that's harder to fight than a boss - this happened). But once you are over level its very easy and once you start getting ten levels or more over it's easier than ESO overland by far. And the way the game is setup, you do need to continue doing stuff in those areas often (usually gathering for crafting or bringing up your status in the zone) so I've spent plenty of time walking around just one tapping mobs with my weapon as I do whatever I'm doing. The most challenging thing in the game at this point is the mob respawns are way over-tuned and you could take out a few around a chest and they are respawning before you even finish harvesting the chest, or while you fight a boss, they respawn while you are in the middle of that fight and suddenly you find yourself getting zerged.

The illusion of its combat system being challenging is, for me, just that: an illusion. There is no reactive gameplay - you can't see an enemy doing something and decide now is my time to block or dodge. You have to already be doing that activity essentially, so all combat has been: make your attack, wait for the return attack that you've learned from whatever mob you are attacking, then do your next attacks, etc. Some weapons and abilities let you change this up a little bit and power through with more attacks and just eat some damage, but to be honest it's made for some very stale feeling fights for me. And you know how you feel in ESO in lag when you are just hitting an ability or weapon swap praying for it to fire or work... that's how combat feels in that game by design. On top of this, the weapon lines are wildly out of balance. A max leveled musket feels ten times worse than an unleveled great axe for example.

I can go on, there is plenty I also like about the game as well, but I've said enough I think to make the point of: 'the grass isn't always greener'.

About the only thing I'd really want ESO to take from the game is how lush the environment feels and the way they handle their world events. It's nice to walk through a forest or swamp and feel like you are in untamed wilderness - something you never feel in ESO imo. But art design I'd borrow from the game ends there - the weather is non-dynamic (always the same in whatever zone), the lighting is both good and bad (it has a lot of weird moments like it gets dark in caves at night lit by only torches somehow or there will be a 20 foot area lit completely randomly), and the character models are horrible (and outfit options pretty bad like eso was at launch). As for their world events, I like how random they feel, they spring up almost anywhere, and that's what I always wanted from Dark Anchors and the like: just have it drop down and start an event somewhere random each time instead of the same spots over and over forever. I'm sure those two issues are probably most limited by the fact ESO is using older tech I'd assume engine-wise.

As for the main topic, harder over-land: I wouldn't mind it being a tad more challenging, but it probably wouldn't rise the level of what some that are asking for would want. Technically you could do the same thing as in NW and just not gear up to min max levels, or CP up, etc to make it more challenging, but nobody usually bothers with that. But go through overland with no CP in and only random dropped gear and you might feel your target for how challenging it needs to be shifting a bit.

If ESO was going to overhaul anything though, I'd rather they spend the time on other targets: performance being #1. It's horrible in pvp and getting worse every patch in trials. The other pve thing I'd want tackled is dungeons: let's have some consistency - let's activate hard mode the exact same way in every dungeon instead of some being a special thing you have to do, some being a flag, some being a scroll, etc. and I'd make all of them of equal level challenge wise, buffing some of the older content. If we were going to add challenge to mobs, it should be in areas like the old dungeons first imo.

AlexanderDeLarge

kargen27 wrote: »

"I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style."

You are asking for a complete overhaul of NPCs in every zone and a separate instance created for each zone beyond those created for population overflow. Or that is what most who want a separate vet instance are asking for. They are saying just cranking up health and hits won't cut it. That is actually asking for a massive undertaking. One that I still think isn't worth their time and resources. If it is just about more health and harder hits better to nerf characters and keep us in the same zone than create new zone and buff creatures.
How hard are they going to need to make the content for you to return to each zone? Why will you be going there? Just the main story then gone? Main story and all sides then gone? Gathering resources and roaming around in general just for fun? If you just want to run about killing things the dungeons offer all kinds of different levels you can try.

If the zones have no interest for you now how will better fights increase your interest beyond just doing the story then leaving?

It makes no sense as a business or for the health of the game to devote a large amount of resources to create a harder instance that will in a very short time be empty. There is plenty of harder content to occupy our time. They could maybe give us another solo arena sometime soon and give two difficulty levels for solo instances going forward. Not much point doing it for content that already exists. How many of us are going to create a new character to run through those stories just for a little bit better fight. They can't bump it up a ton.

No I'm not. Do you even know what Steel Path is? Someone suggested optional banners for delves and bosses(I think?) but I'm arguing a flat modifier to enemy HP and resistance values would at least make them live long enough for us to see their mechanics. The game is too big for a manual rebalance. You need to automate it somehow and a flat modifier should definitely work within their codebase. I would expect a flat modifier to XP gain, gold and enhanced gear and resource drop rates as well as an incentive for this content just as we have incentives for doing veteran dungeons/trials/arenas. Very little manual fine tuning is needed if you do it Steel Path-style.
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/The_Steel_Path

As for the phasing, it is necessary because if you just make it a debuff toggle in the standard world, you'll have level 1s steamrolling through content while we're taking longer and working harder to complete. Blending difficulty levels between standard/veteran doesn't work. Maybe if ZOS wanted to go further with it and come up with some sort of difficulty slider mechanism like LOTRO's landscape difficulty you could have that, but that would be amongst veteran players.
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Landscape_Difficulty

I don't think anyone that agrees with me is suggesting manually fine tuning every single encounter in the game. Suggesting otherwise seems to be coming entirely from people trying to concoct some crazy ridiculous overhaul that is obviously infeasible because the game is too big as justification to tell us no we can't have it.

trackdemon5512

.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style."

You are asking for a complete overhaul of NPCs in every zone and a separate instance created for each zone beyond those created for population overflow. Or that is what most who want a separate vet instance are asking for. They are saying just cranking up health and hits won't cut it. That is actually asking for a massive undertaking. One that I still think isn't worth their time and resources. If it is just about more health and harder hits better to nerf characters and keep us in the same zone than create new zone and buff creatures.
How hard are they going to need to make the content for you to return to each zone? Why will you be going there? Just the main story then gone? Main story and all sides then gone? Gathering resources and roaming around in general just for fun? If you just want to run about killing things the dungeons offer all kinds of different levels you can try.

If the zones have no interest for you now how will better fights increase your interest beyond just doing the story then leaving?

It makes no sense as a business or for the health of the game to devote a large amount of resources to create a harder instance that will in a very short time be empty. There is plenty of harder content to occupy our time. They could maybe give us another solo arena sometime soon and give two difficulty levels for solo instances going forward. Not much point doing it for content that already exists. How many of us are going to create a new character to run through those stories just for a little bit better fight. They can't bump it up a ton.

No I'm not. Do you even know what Steel Path is? Someone suggested optional banners for delves and bosses(I think?) but I'm arguing a flat modifier to enemy HP and resistance values would at least make them live long enough for us to see their mechanics. The game is too big for a manual rebalance. You need to automate it somehow and a flat modifier should definitely work within their codebase. I would expect a flat modifier to XP gain, gold and enhanced gear and resource drop rates as well as an incentive for this content just as we have incentives for doing veteran dungeons/trials/arenas. Very little manual fine tuning is needed if you do it Steel Path-style.
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/The_Steel_Path

As for the phasing, it is necessary because if you just make it a debuff toggle in the standard world, you'll have level 1s steamrolling through content while we're taking longer and working harder to complete. Blending difficulty levels between standard/veteran doesn't work. Maybe if ZOS wanted to go further with it and come up with some sort of difficulty slider mechanism like LOTRO's landscape difficulty you could have that, but that would be amongst veteran players.
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Landscape_Difficulty

I don't think anyone that agrees with me is suggesting manually fine tuning every single encounter in the game. Suggesting otherwise seems to be coming entirely from people trying to concoct some crazy ridiculous overhaul that is obviously infeasible because the game is too big as justification to tell us no we can't have it.

LOTRO slider only works because the game has different servers. If you want to do variable difficulty you have to create a brand new character. It’s impossible for that character to move back and forth from the main server to the slider server and vice versa.

Effectively you’ve started the game over completely, won’t access content until the developer allows it, and have nerfed yourself.

It’s the only way that developers have gotten such a thing to work. And even then they’ve noted that the population of such servers are significantly lower than the main, so much so that some have had to be closed in the past.

Frankly it sounds like a lot of work for nothing. And there is no chance that ZOS will permanently partition large main overland instances. They experience enough grief with Cyrodiil alone and players unable to join friends.

Sylvermynx

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it? Or, is the reality of it that they too, maybe even unconsciously, are just as bored of things as everyone else? Why else would all of this time be spent HERE instead of in the beloved 90% of the game, where one can freely pick flowers and read books without being hassled by video game mechanics WITHIN A VIDEOGAME? I don't know, I could be wrong. Perhaps, day-after-day one just tabs in and out of the Overland's mostly pressure-free harvesting and reading simulator to militantly defend the joy of it all in the forums.

I play 7-8 hours every day, and have done so for 3.5 years. I'm hardly bored. I spend an hour appx in the morning early here on the forum, before starting to play, and a couple of hours in the evening here on the forum, after playing - while making dinner, for instance, or talking to husband, you know, normal life stuff.

Elsonso

Cireous wrote: »

I am watching Zenimax incrementally improve upon the systems in this game and would like to remain hopeful they will take a very hard look at how to make Overland more realistically engaging for more people. I just hope its not too late. If it is too late, then so be it. Everything has a beginning and an ending. Maybe the next Bethesda-oriented MMO will be the evolution we want and anticipate it to be.

Honestly, I do not think they will, and equally honestly, it won't hurt the game if they don't. They seem pretty clear that their primary customer base isn't interested, at least right now, in harder overland content. They have created an alternative in dungeons, trials, and arenas, for those who want harder content, and that should hold things for a very long time.

spartaxoxo

jaws343 wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it? Or, is the reality of it that they too, maybe even unconsciously, are just as bored of things as everyone else? Why else would all of this time be spent HERE instead of in the beloved 90% of the game, where one can freely pick flowers and read books without being hassled by video game mechanics WITHIN A VIDEOGAME? I don't know, I could be wrong. Perhaps, day-after-day one just tabs in and out of the Overland's mostly pressure-free harvesting and reading simulator to militantly defend the joy of it all in the forums.
   

To speak personally on that, I have a job which takes up 8 hours of every weekday. A job where I cannot play video games during but I can browse the forums and comment on threads here and there. That doesn't mean I am not playing the game. And in fact play daily, for multiple hours a day and even more on the weekends. So much so that I've completed all overland content in the game. Why would I want the content I've already completed to be more difficult. Its overland, it's mean to be weak.

I remember when they changed the mechanics of Clanfears and made them leap and stun. Single most annoying minor change they've made to the game imo. Easy to avoid, hardly a real problem. But just one extra step of needing to block some overland trash mob to avoid a stun when all I want to do is loot the treasure chest I saw.

This. I also have a fairly high rate of typing, so just because a post was long doesn't mean it took me that long to write. It's nothing for me to post then go back to doing what I was doing, and I actually still exceed the level of productivity expected me and earned a promotion. I also might browse my phone while doing other tasks such as vacuuming, cooking, etc. Because that stuff is boring. If I weren't on the forums while doing those things, I wouldn't be playing the game.

My playtime varies but I play frequently. I try to at least get my endeavors and claim my daily each day, although sometimes I don't have time for any more than that.

spartaxoxo

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

No I'm not. Do you even know what Steel Path is? Someone suggested optional banners for delves and bosses(I think?) but I'm arguing a flat modifier to enemy HP and resistance values would at least make them live long enough for us to see their mechanics.

Oh, so you weren't one of the ones that insisted it have to be new mechanics or nothing? That's my bad, I'm sorry. Buffing enemies or Debuffing players is the exact same thing. It's just taking the exact same fight and making it more challenging. You don't need a separate server for that. There's no good reason for that. People being mad that someone else isn't playing in hard mode and having an easier time is not a good reason.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I don't think anyone that agrees with me is suggesting manually fine tuning every single encounter in the game. Suggesting otherwise seems to be coming entirely from people trying to concoct some crazy ridiculous overhaul that is obviously infeasible because the game is too big as justification to tell us no we can't have it.

I did mistake you for one of them, but I did see multiple different people that said having a debuff wouldn't work because there would not be new mechanics. And that for a vet overland to be good, the mobs need new mechanics otherwise it's just the same fight but longer and that's no fun. SOME of them claim they don't want a complete overhaul, but then insist that the issue is mostly mechanics and stats adjustments won't work.

Edit:

kargen27 wrote: »

Except they will not be happy because this isn't about enemies hitting harder but about enemies having better mechanics.

Iccotak wrote: »

They still used the same boring mechanics, overall not interesting.

and to be clear I am not entirely saying to overhaul the mechanics of all old bosses and current NPCs.

but let's not pretend that stats would fix the issue when we can point to Pre-OneTam to show that is not the case.

CP5 wrote: »

Many enemies are plagued by this, so you don't need to overhaul the AI, just give the AI useful abilities and buff the ones that could be useful and that alone would go a long way to making the content more engaging.

It doesn't matter if I go out with no gear and only punch mobs to death, the fact that the enemy doesn't change from me doing this, and they remain so basic and underwhelming to fight, that still makes the fight dull and forgettable no matter how long I drag the fight out for.

Here's a couple examples. For a lot of people they will not be happy with just stat adjustments, they want better mechs and AI. Which despite them saying not asking for an overhaul, would require one. If all they did was buff the enemies stats (or gave players debuffs they could turn on in some way), this would not cause any change in AI or mechs. That requires going in and changing the game.

Nagastani

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it? Or, is the reality of it that they too, maybe even unconsciously, are just as bored of things as everyone else? Why else would all of this time be spent HERE instead of in the beloved 90% of the game, where one can freely pick flowers and read books without being hassled by video game mechanics WITHIN A VIDEOGAME? I don't know, I could be wrong. Perhaps, day-after-day one just tabs in and out of the Overland's mostly pressure-free harvesting and reading simulator to militantly defend the joy of it all in the forums.
2. No matter what anyone believes regarding the "popularity" of a mostly unengaging combat experience while questing, its something that by the very nature of innovation within the existing MMO paradigm is NOT a permanent fixture but, instead, in flux, and I predict the downward shift in this perceived "popularity" is visible on the horizon. It's obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the current trend in up-and-coming MMOs is the creation of a compelling and engaging non-instanced and highly replayable Overland. Game makers are looking at the intriguing levels of lengthy engagement and enjoyment within idolized and treasured Open-world Single Player games and asking themselves, how can we translate the memorability and adventuresome replayability of this experience effectively and addictively into multiplayer games? Also, how can we take what we LOVE about previous MMOs and HATE about previous MMOs and improve upon them? Newer games are notably making a lot of headway in this regard. Evolving and degrading player-governed Nodes or Territories, optional PVE Invasions, optional PVP Wars, Zones and future Zones explicitly designed for higher challenge and greater rewards once the learning curves in the beginner Zones are achieved, harvesting in every Zone remaining relevant forever, questing areas with basic SOLO content directly butting up against questing areas with significantly more challenging (but optional) SOLO content. Class-free or Class-expanding skillsets. Somewhat rare, sought-after resources and items within instance-free and challenging boss encounters inside caves. Higher aggro range and longer leashes for Overland mobs. The list goes on. What was POPULAR or even doable a few years ago has been and will be greatly improved upon. It is up to Zenimax to decide whether or not they want to keep up and increase engagement or mostly just reskin nostalgia-governed gameplay systems for what will inevitably be a smaller and smaller participating audience.
3. I absolutely love the Elder Scrolls Universe. The single player games were the innovations that CHANGED EVERYTHING we thought games could give us. I also LOVE Elder Scrolls Online. Even today, the aesthetics are above and beyond what other games are achieving. I love the textured and uncartoonish realism of it all (granted, I use an ENB to colorize everything, but the fundamentals are in the game). I believe that realism and whatever gameplay mechanics that most mimic realism are both the present and future of gaming. Before you know it, your MMOs will be an ultra realistic, nearly akin to real life experience, except with other people, fighting, looting, interacting with one another and exploring unknown vistas, the very things we fail to get around to doing in our every day lives.
4. I am watching Zenimax incrementally improve upon the systems in this game and would like to remain hopeful they will take a very hard look at how to make Overland more realistically engaging for more people. I just hope its not too late. If it is too late, then so be it. Everything has a beginning and an ending. Maybe the next Bethesda-oriented MMO will be the evolution we want and anticipate it to be.

Absolutely brilliant. Wordy hah, but brilliant.

CP5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Or, like I alluded to earlier, maybe One Tamriel was a mistake and ZOS shouldn't have tried to change their game to be more open to players. Just let the players who don't like it go, let big issues remain because fixing them takes effort. It isn't like ZOS adds a major update or system to every major dlc and most of the smaller zone dlc's.

There would likely be no game without One Tamriel. It was a massive success that saved the game.

And, a change like this allowing more players to enjoy the content ZOS puts the vast majority of their effort into wouldn't help the game going forward? Give people a reason to go back and do the older content, not just the newest?

Nope. Perhaps the quest bosses but what they would have to sacrifice in terms of cost, impact to the new player experience, and new stuff for everyone is simply not worth something that massive.

I do support smaller changes but the scale of what's being asked with Vet Overland is huge. It's like you're asking for the moon and adamant that stars aren't good enough.

Nope, you guys aren't worth it. Is that what you're saying? It would "Impact the new player experience," how, dare say, would an option do that? vSS didn't ruin new players experience of Northern Elsweyr, how would an opt-in difficulty, whichever form has been mentioned, intrude on that?

Elsonso wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

1. It makes no sense as a business or for the health of the game to devote a large amount of resources to fill a demand in the player base, and is instead better to let players become dissatisfied with the game and leave?

Right. The goal is not to get every dollar that they can from every possible customer. The goal is to maximize the return on investment. Generally, this means finding the least expensive thing that provides the greatest amount of revenue. I am sure you can find examples so I don't have to say it and get banned.

CP5 wrote: »

2. "There is plenty of harder content to occupy our time"

To this end, I do have a question. I know that there is a lot of hard content in ESO, and I know that the completion rate for the achievements related to them have not been earned by a lot of players. Are you a player that has completed all of these, including the speed run no death, like Planesbreaker?

And making an effort to keep these players is too much. It isn't about perfection, getting exactly what we want, it's about ZOS showing they care in the slightest to maintain these players, since I can say from experience most of the people I run trials with only log on for those events and nothing more. When the raid group takes a break, they're gone. Should ZOS so willing let players leave their game, or do only the casual players matter, only those who want to enjoy the story with no resistance be the ones catered to, at all.

And again, "have you done all the vet content," because if you haven't, get back to it. Yeah, I've done vSS hm most recently, dungeon hard modes are a dime a dozen, but do you think that maybe, in the world of Elder Scrolls, that the entire rest of the world may be a place vet players want to explore and enjoy? But maybe the patronizing atmosphere, where even the most dangerous enemies are worried about getting in our way and refuse to even try to be engaging, makes enjoying the entire rest of the world difficult? No, just keep suggesting that people who've sunk literally thousands of hours into the game just haven't run through x trial enough times to warrant them getting tired of it.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

Nope, you guys aren't worth it. Is that what you're saying? It would "Impact the new player experience," how, dare say, would an option do that? vSS didn't ruin new players experience of Northern Elsweyr, how would an opt-in difficulty, whichever form has been mentioned, intrude on that?

Bringing "worth" into it or not is a bit strange. It's not about the worthiness of the players but the size of the population who want this. There has to be enough people that want it to justify the cost, and Zeni doesn't see that based off the current amount of people using the difficult content that's already in the game.

And it disrupts new player experience because the unified playerbase allows new players to come in and meet people organically when they get help with various things and form friendships and guilds, and learn from all different kinds of experienced players. That unified experience is part of their success and different instances are a detriment to that.

Ravensilver

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

[snip]
It's time for ZOS to throw the veteran players who have been lining their pockets a bone. I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style.

I'm a casual player and have a CP of 1505.

I have played all the chapters and DLCs. I've only left out the trials, because I don't have people to do them with. But that's nothing that I'm unhappy about.

I love ESO just the way it is.

If there were an overland 'toggle', I'd want to have one that completely eliminates all mobs in overland. Why? Because I harvest and craft, explore, wander and loot chests. I do antiquities and treasure maps, and love surveys.

I hated the Vet zones. I hated Craglorn and still haven't completed it (though I did complete Silver and Gold).

I don't need a bone, or a toggle, or a changed overland. I'm fine. And all the people *I* know in the game, feel the same way.

So who is right? Who is in the majority?

THe only way we could ever know is if ZOS implements a mandatory survey that you have to fill out before logging in. Or ZOS can look at its data and see which content the players are playing. And that is probably a lot more informative than all our suppositions and conjecture here on the forum, where the player base represented is very, very small...

spartaxoxo

Ravensilver wrote: »

Or ZOS can look at its data and see which content the players are playing.

They did and it told them the vast majority of players like things casual and want to play the story.

CP5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Nope, you guys aren't worth it. Is that what you're saying? It would "Impact the new player experience," how, dare say, would an option do that? vSS didn't ruin new players experience of Northern Elsweyr, how would an opt-in difficulty, whichever form has been mentioned, intrude on that?

Bringing "worth" into it or not is a bit strange. It's not about the worthiness of the players but the size of the population who want this. There has to be enough people that want it to justify the cost, and Zeni doesn't see that based off the current amount of people using the difficult content that's already in the game.

And it disrupts new player experience because the unified playerbase allows new players to come in and meet people organically when they get help with various things and form friendships and guilds, and learn from all different kinds of experienced players. That unified experience is part of their success and different instances are a detriment to that.

The "unified player base" argument again? Instances exist, any populated zone is already broken up and despite what you think ZOS doesn't just 'put them all together.' Separate instances exist to prevent too many people from being in the same zone. On top of that, 1) players who would use this option are either in their own dungeon or trial instances, if not logging out, and 2) maybe having a version of overland that's more challenging would encourage more people to come together, rather than thinking "why should I bother fighting that boring enemy just because this random person is having an issue with it?"

I know for a fact when I was doing silver and gold zones that dolmens were special, with people coming together, chain rezing at the nearest wayshrine when the named storm atronach boss came up, and they were exciting.

So please, explain how giving players who either log out or are pushed back into instanced content, being given a reason to explore the world, would 'horrendously' divide the player base.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

trackdemon5512

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Here is my conclusion after this long thread.
I'm not welcome in this game and it is not for me.
I give up giving it a try. All you have done is discouraged me from wanting to make this a better experience for me and other people who think like me.
Nobody should be begging for this many years to enjoy a product they spent money on and continuing to do so is an incredible lack of self respect on my part.

You're far from the first and far from the last but I do appreciate you voicing it because there's likely a good portion of the veteran population that feels exactly the way you do. Probably more than anyone suspects, myself included. There's a reason this subject pops up everywhere TESO is discussed. I have several IRL and guild friends who used to login daily and now don't even follow what ZOS is up to expansion-wise besides a couple "spears or spellcrafting yet?" jokes. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point.

Far too much emphasis has been placed on the 'casual player experience' but I really want to ask everyone in this thread... It's been seven years with 15+ chapters and zone DLCs. Even if the casual player only played half of the chapter releases (let's say Morrowind, Greymoor, & Elsweyr) in any meaningful capacity, surely they'd have a character around CP200-300 assuming they're not hopping on alts the second they hit level 50?

If that's the case, why is this being downplayed as much as it is if pretty much everyone that has shown TESO loyalty over the years is approaching or past that point in progression where the game's struggles with power creep and lack of difficulty become extremely apparent? If you disagree, play devil's advocate for a moment. I mean it. Go in the overland and watch a CP300's combat encounter. The enemies aren't lasting long enough to perform whatever scripted actions they have. That's representative of the majority of the content in the game and the majority of the content being sold every year at retail.

It's time for ZOS to throw the veteran players who have been lining their pockets a bone. I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style.

What “veteran”/challenge seeking players currently get:

- vet instances of dungeons, arenas, trials
- Hard mode challenges of bosses in all dungeons
- Hard mode challenges of several sub-bosses in newer dungeons, the most recent having challenges for all main sub-bosses
- Optional side bosses (Black Drake Villa has an optional final boss with limited tries and harder difficulty based on how you challenged yourself on previous bosses)
- Hard Mode Challenges for two trials that are very difficult and highly customizable (VCR and VAS)
- A Highly Customized Solo Arena with optional bosses, optional buffs, optional paths, and a difficult final boss
- Hard Mode Sub-Bosses on all trials after Elsweyr (VSS, VKA, VRG)
- Optional additional Sub-Bosses in Rockgrove
- Skins, titles, dyes, mounts, body markings, personalities, style pages, emotes, Perfected Gear with improved stats, and furnishings for those that complete said content

I mean that’s a lot. Not only that but the number of challenges and rewards have steadily increased with each update for those players. The developers clearly have moved in a direction advantageous to veteran players demands and thus throwing them a bone.

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

spartaxoxo

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Here is my conclusion after this long thread.
I'm not welcome in this game and it is not for me.
I give up giving it a try. All you have done is discouraged me from wanting to make this a better experience for me and other people who think like me.
Nobody should be begging for this many years to enjoy a product they spent money on and continuing to do so is an incredible lack of self respect on my part.

You're far from the first and far from the last but I do appreciate you voicing it because there's likely a good portion of the veteran population that feels exactly the way you do. Probably more than anyone suspects, myself included. There's a reason this subject pops up everywhere TESO is discussed. I have several IRL and guild friends who used to login daily and now don't even follow what ZOS is up to expansion-wise besides a couple "spears or spellcrafting yet?" jokes. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point.

Far too much emphasis has been placed on the 'casual player experience' but I really want to ask everyone in this thread... It's been seven years with 15+ chapters and zone DLCs. Even if the casual player only played half of the chapter releases (let's say Morrowind, Greymoor, & Elsweyr) in any meaningful capacity, surely they'd have a character around CP200-300 assuming they're not hopping on alts the second they hit level 50?

If that's the case, why is this being downplayed as much as it is if pretty much everyone that has shown TESO loyalty over the years is approaching or past that point in progression where the game's struggles with power creep and lack of difficulty become extremely apparent? If you disagree, play devil's advocate for a moment. I mean it. Go in the overland and watch a CP300's combat encounter. The enemies aren't lasting long enough to perform whatever scripted actions they have. That's representative of the majority of the content in the game and the majority of the content being sold every year at retail.

It's time for ZOS to throw the veteran players who have been lining their pockets a bone. I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style.

What “veteran”/challenge seeking players currently get:

- vet instances of dungeons, arenas, trials
- Hard mode challenges of bosses in all dungeons
- Hard mode challenges of several sub-bosses in newer dungeons, the most recent having challenges for all main sub-bosses
- Optional side bosses (Black Drake Villa has an optional final boss with limited tries and harder difficulty based on how you challenged yourself on previous bosses)
- Hard Mode Challenges for two trials that are very difficult and highly customizable (VCR and VAS)
- A Highly Customized Solo Arena with optional bosses, optional buffs, optional paths, and a difficult final boss
- Hard Mode Sub-Bosses on all trials after Elsweyr (VSS, VKA, VRG)
- Optional additional Sub-Bosses in Rockgrove
- Skins, titles, dyes, mounts, body markings, personalities, style pages, emotes, Perfected Gear with improved stats, and furnishings for those that complete said content

I mean that’s a lot. Not only that but the number of challenges and rewards have steadily increased with each update for those players. The developers clearly have moved in a direction advantageous to veteran players demands and thus throwing them a bone.

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

I mean I'm not in favor of Vet Overland either but most of that is just the same content being listed different ways.

Like it's Vet Dungeons, Arenas, and Trials and their hardmodes. The "customization" is just different achievements for the same instance.

kargen27

"I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?"

Quite a bit off and on. Started an entire new account so I could do all the quests again in the same order I did my first character. I wouldn't mind harder overland. I also know why it isn't a good idea. Some people like the stories and do them over and over just like some people watch the same movie several times. If you like the story you like the story.

"No I'm not. Do you even know what Steel Path is? Someone suggested optional banners for delves and bosses(I think?) but I'm arguing a flat modifier to enemy HP and resistance values would at least make them live long enough for us to see their mechanics."

What mechanics? One of them jumps over you. Another snares you. Most the people wanting a different instance are saying what you are asking for would not be near enough. You are pretty alone with wanting a unique zone with a slider for HP. You could just as easily get what you want by providing players with foods and drinks that nerf and keep everyone in the same zone. The end result would be the same. The fight lasts long enough to see a mechanic that doesn't really threaten you in any way.
"As for the phasing, it is necessary because..." which brings us back to the negative impact this would have in lower population zonesif it were popular. It wouldn't be popular though. People that are not doing the stories now are not suddenly going to find them interesting enough to do because fights last thirty seconds longer.

"I don't think anyone that agrees with me is suggesting manually fine tuning every single encounter in the game."

Most are suggesting exactly that. There are some that want a harder vet zone with more/better mechanics and some suggesting as an alternative having a slider or some other way of having harder fights in the existing zone. Very few are in line with a slider and new zone.
There is a lot of support from both sides of the argument for allowing a choice with solo instances in future content.

"Nope, you guys aren't worth it. Is that what you're saying?"

That is not what anybody is saying. They are saying the number of people wanting this option isn't worth diverting the time and resources. Kind of like Wingstop the minimum amount of wings you can order is ten. It isn't worth their time to make you an order of two wings. Same thing here. Or maybe better comparison it isn't worth their time to create a new flavor that less than one percent of their customers have shown an interest in. Especially so if once they create it they can never remove it from the menu. They still want you for a customer you are just going to need to order from the menu.

"THe only way we could ever know is if ZOS implements a mandatory survey that you have to fill out before logging in. Or ZOS can look at its data and see which content the players are playing."

They do send out surveys. I fill them out when I get them. It is also amazing the amount of data they keep on characters. Add-ons show just a part of what can be tracked. They don't gather that data just for it to take up server space. It gets analyzed and put to use.

Elsonso

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

Not necessarily. The players have the freedom to play with anyone they come across in overland.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

It's actually not rare at all. It's like one of the main ways new players end up making friends/joining guilds. And would be one of the main reasons devs would care about a unified experience.

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

It's actually not rare at all. It's like one of the main ways new players end up making friends/joining guilds. And would be one of the main reasons devs would care about a unified experience.

And that's great. But this hardly applies to people who want a more fun overland.

SilverBride

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

It's actually not rare at all. It's like one of the main ways new players end up making friends/joining guilds. And would be one of the main reasons devs would care about a unified experience.

And that's great. But this hardly applies to people who want a more fun overland.

That could be because they aren't looking to group with others. I play solo most of the time, yet today I grouped up about 6 times just questing in one zone, to help with World Bosses.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

It's actually not rare at all. It's like one of the main ways new players end up making friends/joining guilds. And would be one of the main reasons devs would care about a unified experience.

And that's great. But this hardly applies to people who want a more fun overland.

It does.

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

Any suggestion you make should not involve a separate instance because they don't want to split people up like that.

Parasaurolophus

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The "unified player base" argument again?

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

It's fun to play together. But the players each play alone in the overland.

They play alone, together. They aren't in a group for the most part, but they run into random strangers and give and receive help. They may also socialize a bit with those strangers. And sometimes that socializing leads to joining guilds and making friends.

If this is the case, it is very rare. Just because the game doesn't require it.

It's actually not rare at all. It's like one of the main ways new players end up making friends/joining guilds. And would be one of the main reasons devs would care about a unified experience.

And that's great. But this hardly applies to people who want a more fun overland.

It does.

On Splitting the playerbase using different difficulty

'We get this question or request a lot too. We built overland content to be inclusive because as an MMO we want to unify as much of the player base as possible in a given zone. Difficulty sliders and settings are a detriment to that." --Rich Lambert

Any suggestion you make should not involve a separate instance because they don't want to split people up like that.

And yet they do it, they divide the players into different instances. Look, I understand that Rich's opinion is close to you. Also, if I'm not mistaken, you are a console player, right? Perhaps the game is very different on the console. But my experience with this game and that of most of the players are the same. Just look at this experience:
1. Release of a new location.
2. I complete all content in less than a week. I carefully read dialogues, delve into stories, read all books and notes. Still, it only takes three or four evenings.
3. I remain extremely disappointed in the combat experience, when I have to literally kill the main boss with light attacks, because otherwise he will burn out in 5-8 seconds without having time to utter all the phrases.
4. I am waiting for the release of all the motives to get them, completing achievements on dailys. I have 9 characters, I complete daily quests with my friend. In total, another 5 days for achievements. And it’s not a very exciting experience. It's just dumb farming for the sake of getting achievements.
5. I am bringing my character back to Vivec for crafting dailies.
6. If I'm lucky, I find a raid in a new trial for hard mods or triple achievements.

You tell me about how you go through quests for months, you cannot cope with quest bosses and therefore you are looking for random people to help you ... I had something similar, but at the very early stages of the game. The problem is that for mid and late game overland does not represent any gameplay value.

Amottica

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?

Probably more than those who have complained about it over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums. After all, they seem to enjoy it more.

Granted, I have am not defending the current state of anything. However, I do agree with the comments Rich has made on the subject. He makes the best case as to why the current state should not change and is based on the real data on player behavior as well as the incredible success they have seen with the game when they changed to the current overland model.