800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

Elsonso

summ0004 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

It makes sense for games to evolve and change as markets, competition and customers needs change in order to stop stagnation and freshen things up and you cannot simply compare launch success with present success and then expect it to go forward in a linear fashion with no change.

They actually have made quite a few changes. But those changes have largely not been utilized. A lot of people say they want vet overland and they like certain content, but then they don't actually go and play it.

Compare Dolmens to Dragons/Harrowstorms
Compare Coldharbour's public dungeon to Silent Halls in Blackwood
Compare the guar boss in base game to Kung Fu Kitty.

I think people prefer the difficulty in the actual story quests and bosses rather than publc dungeons and harrowstorms etc, although its nice to get both.

I havent purchased Blackwood because ive felt disengaged with the quest content in the past, so cant comment on its difficulty and whether its improved.

The quests are the story, and the story is the important part of the quest, not the final boss. The final boss is just part of the end of the story. The quest path to arrive at the ending is just as important as the final boss. I don't think they are going to deviate very far from that, as an epic solo battle at the end is just an ending, it is not the story.

spartaxoxo

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

2) The game's current popularity is due to easier content.

This is a shadow because it completely ignores the reality of a massive global pandemic that has seen ALL gaming numbers spike radically due to so many people being stuck indoors. It also underplays many of the other legitimate achievements of the game in the past years, including things like the sticker book, more activities, new skill trees, better graphics, and better performance. Why are these facts not considered?

He isn't just talking about now. He is talking about this game has grown every single year since One Tamriel. And how players consistently reject the harder content in favor of the easiest content for literally years. It's not just his interpretation either, they have many people looking at all facets of play. These developers know what is being used more than anyone else. The pandemic has nothing to do with it. This is generally true across the MMO genre.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

It makes sense for games to evolve and change as markets, competition and customers needs change in order to stop stagnation and freshen things up and you cannot simply compare launch success with present success and then expect it to go forward in a linear fashion with no change.

They actually have made quite a few changes. But those changes have largely not been utilized. A lot of people say they want vet overland and they like certain content, but then they don't actually go and play it.

Compare Dolmens to Dragons/Harrowstorms
Compare Coldharbour's public dungeon to Silent Halls in Blackwood
Compare the guar boss in base game to Kung Fu Kitty.

I think people prefer the difficulty in the actual story quests and bosses rather than publc dungeons and harrowstorms etc, although its nice to get both.

I havent purchased Blackwood because ive felt disengaged with the quest content in the past, so cant comment on its difficulty and whether its improved.

Perhaps. The story quests haven't really gotten better but the optional content has gotten better. I have had to help a couple of casual players beat the Public Dungeon group boss in Blackwood. They couldn't do it all alone.

summ0004

Elsonso wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

It makes sense for games to evolve and change as markets, competition and customers needs change in order to stop stagnation and freshen things up and you cannot simply compare launch success with present success and then expect it to go forward in a linear fashion with no change.

They actually have made quite a few changes. But those changes have largely not been utilized. A lot of people say they want vet overland and they like certain content, but then they don't actually go and play it.

Compare Dolmens to Dragons/Harrowstorms
Compare Coldharbour's public dungeon to Silent Halls in Blackwood
Compare the guar boss in base game to Kung Fu Kitty.

I think people prefer the difficulty in the actual story quests and bosses rather than publc dungeons and harrowstorms etc, although its nice to get both.

I havent purchased Blackwood because ive felt disengaged with the quest content in the past, so cant comment on its difficulty and whether its improved.

The quests are the story, and the story is the important part of the quest, not the final boss. The final boss is just part of the end of the story. The quest path to arrive at the ending is just as important as the final boss. I don't think they are going to deviate very far from that, as an epic solo battle at the end is just an ending, it is not the story

Elsonso wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

It makes sense for games to evolve and change as markets, competition and customers needs change in order to stop stagnation and freshen things up and you cannot simply compare launch success with present success and then expect it to go forward in a linear fashion with no change.

They actually have made quite a few changes. But those changes have largely not been utilized. A lot of people say they want vet overland and they like certain content, but then they don't actually go and play it.

Compare Dolmens to Dragons/Harrowstorms
Compare Coldharbour's public dungeon to Silent Halls in Blackwood
Compare the guar boss in base game to Kung Fu Kitty.

I think people prefer the difficulty in the actual story quests and bosses rather than publc dungeons and harrowstorms etc, although its nice to get both.

I havent purchased Blackwood because ive felt disengaged with the quest content in the past, so cant comment on its difficulty and whether its improved.

The quests are the story, and the story is the important part of the quest, not the final boss. The final boss is just part of the end of the story. The quest path to arrive at the ending is just as important as the final boss. I don't think they are going to deviate very far from that, as an epic solo battle at the end is just an ending, it is not the story.

In your opinion, but for myself and many others actually having a boss that doesnt die when you sneeze on it makes the end of the quest more engaging.

This is a feature that would not have any impact on other peoples enjoyment who want an easy boss, or who are inexperienced or low level, as it will be in the instance of the player.

Elsonso

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

"In the allegory, Socrates describes a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners' reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world."

This is an awesome reference, but it begs the question of how Socrates knew about the ESO forum thousands of years before it came to be.

(The point being that this wisdom applies to the forum, as well)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's not just his interpretation either, they have many people looking at all facets of play. These developers know what is being used more than anyone else.

It is important to note that ZOS employs people who collect and analyze data coming from the game. Business Analytics, I think they are called. Rich is not just popping out to the database and running a query off the top of his head.

Smitch_59

My 2 cents. I think overland is fine as it is. But then, I'm a terrible player with 1400+ CP; been playing since console launch. I've never done a trial or a vet dungeon. I'm just not that good. I've done nMA exactly once. Never attempted VMA. So there's a lot of content that is simply beyond my puny capabilities. I don't like that fact, but I live with it and don't expect it to change. If ZOS wants to implement a veteran overland, that's fine, but I won't be there.

WhyMustItBe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

He isn't just talking about now. He is talking about this game has grown every single year since One Tamriel. And how players consistently reject the harder content in favor of the easiest content for literally years. It's not just his interpretation either, they have many people looking at all facets of play. These developers know what is being used more than anyone else. The pandemic has nothing to do with it. This is generally true across the MMO genre.

You can't attribute that growth simply to the removal of veteran overland content. How can the removal of content in year two account for growth in year five?

It is also not possible to analyze data which does not exist. The difficult content in question hasn't existed to be analyzed since it was removed shortly after launch. Hence, interpreting 7 year old data as absolute. This still doesn't answer why all the other larger progress of the game, new systems, more content, graphical/performance improvements, etc. are not even considered as a possible reason for the increased popularity of the game over time. It sure seems more likely to me.

Nevermind games like WoW releasing two back-to-back bad (or largely perceived as bad) expansions, and other real world factors. And yes, the pandemic DOES absolutely have something to do with the success of gaming in general over the past couple years.

As for players avoiding difficult content... If you are talking about trials and hard mode veteran dungeons that is not relevant to the discussion. A minority of players do that content in any game. This discussion is specifically about adding a toggle for veteran solo/questing/overland content. An option for more difficult solo content is completely different than difficult group content, for many obvious reasons. The only data they have for more difficult solo content is from years and years ago, and I maintain their assessment of that data is flawed or at the very least, incomplete.

Adding an option takes nothing away.

This thread keeps going around in circles. It is like if there was a game with only PVE, and someone on the forums suggested adding the ability to flag for PVP strictly as an optional feature, but rather than discussing the possible benefits and downsides of the suggestion, people instead fixated on which is better, PVE or PVP, totally missing the point of the suggestion: to add something that would require minimal additional effort that would make the maximum possible number of players happy.

Amottica

Vhozek wrote: »

Here is my conclusion after this long thread.
I'm not welcome in this game and it is not for me.
I give up giving it a try. All you have done is discouraged me from wanting to make this a better experience for me and other people who think like me.
Nobody should be begging for this many years to enjoy a product they spent money on and continuing to do so is an incredible lack of self respect on my part.

You do make a good point and that games will not have everything any given player happens to want. The game would be absolutely crazy to develop and add all the various forum requests to the game but have most of them be "optional".

Rich recently stated that FF14 developers know their game and stay true to it. It seems that it is similar to ESO as they have become very successful with the current design and probably should stay true to it. In the end, it is great we have different games to choose to meet our desires. There are games offering open world PvP and even flagging for people who want that and games with a central trading system for people who want that. Personally, I am into a great story and having good dungeons and raids to do for when I want a challenge.

So yea, no one should be begging to have the game changed to one they want to play but in the same token the developers need to stay true to what has made the game a success.

Smitch_59

Smitch_59 wrote: »

My 2 cents. I think overland is fine as it is. But then, I'm a terrible player with 1400+ CP; been playing since console launch. I've never done a trial or a vet dungeon. I'm just not that good. I've done nMA exactly once. Never attempted VMA. So there's a lot of content that is simply beyond my puny capabilities. I don't like that fact, but I live with it and don't expect it to change. If ZOS wants to implement a veteran overland, that's fine, but I won't be there.

Edit: I did complete Calwell's Silver and Gold on multiple characters. I enjoyed it because it was almost like playing a single-player TES game.

Seminolegirl1992

Elsonso wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

It would not be difficult for ZoS to add instanced veteran content for those who are interested, which is a larger number than just the "elite" everyone seems to be referring to. Joining a group with friends on the normal instance would induce an option to join them in said content, and vice versa. Instances already exist. Assuming that players who want more challenging stories are just end game elites is extremely disingenuous. I would estimate that 95% of my gameplay in ESO is rp and housing. 1% trials/dungeons. The rest is farming/crafting/events probably. I want a vet overland instance and I think you would be surprised how many would opt for such a thing. It would not reduce the number of people in xyz instance since the game is *already* instanced, and asking a friend to join you to defeat a world boss solves population issues should there be one. Rich having access to old statistics was already explained in older comments. The game cannot be compared to how it was in the beginning- much has changed since then, especially with power creep. The VR system and today's system are drastically different.

The concept of "difficult" is not something that we can judge, and the issue may not even be difficulty, but simply that it breaks things. We may not be aware of all of things that might break.

"Instances" require hardware to run on, and that may or may not be a "difficulty". Just because they already do it does not mean that it won't be difficult.

I would also be really careful about Rich and "old statistics" as his statistics are probably current. It is highly unlikely that he out of touch, and he has vastly more information at his fingertip than we do. I mean, we are limited to peer comments, forum polls, and anecdotal information and he can know how many people attempt, succeed, give up, and die to overland mobs, delve bosses, dungeon bosses, trial bosses, etc.

I may have been referring to comments I read earlier about how things were before One Tamriel- that's why I disagree with him. So new statistics or otherwise, I think basing a decision on how things used to be is what's a little frustrating. I may have to find the comment I'm referring to (it was like 25+ pages back before I skipped to the end to comment). I've seen a lot of people refer to how people hated difficult content before 1T and it was rarely played, but our point I think is that things have changed drastically since 1T was implemented.

Seminolegirl1992

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

As for Rich Lamberts comments, one person can not be all knowing and all seeing either, and he would be wise to be open minded to the player base too especially as things do not stay the same in the MMO market forever especially with new competition being released. If the fix to get more players or retain dissatisfied players is an easy one too implement, without affecting the players who are happy, then it would be wise to at least research and consider this.

Rich has access to statistics. He can see what content is being utilized and by how many. He can also compare how successful ESO was in the past and after any changes that were made. These are much more accurate indicators than the forums.

He's not wrong though. Even with all the data in the world the conclusions one person draws are only as good as the assumptions they make going in. That is why it is important to consider the data from multiple perspectives. Because humans are imperfect creatures.

This is known as the "data in a vacuum" fallacy. If you strictly look at the data and not the larger context it occurs within, it is likely that you will completely misinterpret the results. Consider the classic Allegory of the Cave:

"In the allegory, Socrates describes a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners' reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world."

Now, consider the assumptions being made regarding more difficult content.

1) That the reason "no one played veteran zones" (which is demonstrably false since I am someone and I played them) was solely due to them being "too difficult."

This assumption is a shadow because, as many have already stated, one of the primary reasons given was actually faction loyalty in a game originally billed as a major faction war campaign, and not wanting to play a hero for the quests in another faction's zones. Also, the fact that there was enough content from doing your own faction, guild quests, and grinding to hit max level easily without setting foot in the other zones. Why are these facts not considered?

2) The game's current popularity is due to easier content.

This is a shadow because it completely ignores the reality of a massive global pandemic that has seen ALL gaming numbers spike radically due to so many people being stuck indoors. It also underplays many of the other legitimate achievements of the game in the past years, including things like the sticker book, more activities, new skill trees, better graphics, and better performance. Why are these facts not considered?

The answer: Because one man's interpretation of the data from 7 years ago is never going to give the whole picture.

We should absolutely keep an open mind about customer feedback, especially when it comes to an OPTION. An option risks nothing, because it takes nothing away. I think people fixate too much on what one or two devs have said, and not enough on the actual merits of the suggestion.

This is beautifully said

Seminolegirl1992

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

My 2 cents. I think overland is fine as it is. But then, I'm a terrible player with 1400+ CP; been playing since console launch. I've never done a trial or a vet dungeon. I'm just not that good. I've done nMA exactly once. Never attempted VMA. So there's a lot of content that is simply beyond my puny capabilities. I don't like that fact, but I live with it and don't expect it to change. If ZOS wants to implement a veteran overland, that's fine, but I won't be there.

Edit: I did complete Calwell's Silver and Gold on multiple characters. I enjoyed it because it was almost like playing a single-player TES game.

Multiple characters? Oof you're dedicated. I remember how excited I was when I got my teapot hat. Never again XD

SilverBride

Callosum wrote: »

An to my actual point. Players aren't asking for more endgame content like vet dungeons, trial etc. As you are saying players are enjoying this but it's only like 5% of the new content. What we want is to enjoy the rest of it which is actually the standard for most MMO's where updates often is new endgame zones at least in the ones i have played.

I agree that some MMO's have a more linear approach to questing. To use WoW as an example, they have certain zones that are for level this to this, and level that to that, so on and so forth, so you can move along to higher level content as you level. ESO used to with Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold, but there was one major problem... no one was doing them.

I know some players did complete and enjoy these veteran zones, and I completed Silver and Gold once, and never did it again because dying all the time to veteran level mobs when I was just trying to do what should have been a simple quest was just not fun. I didn't feel like I was getting any stronger or progressing at all when overland mobs could beat me up relentlessly.

As Rich Lambert recently said:

"A ton of people completed their own alliance storylines to get to silver and gold. A ton of people did. People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff."

"...We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it."

"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things."

summ0004

I actually really enjoyed leveling through the quests in the early days in the non veteran parts of overland and this was a blast as the mobs were more difficult than they are in current overland. I dont whether they seemed harder because I was a noob and a lower level character without CP, or whether the mobs just generally were harder then.

I did make a start on cadwells silver but didnt get too far into it, but the reasons for this is because I felt I had reached max level and got bored of doing more grinding quests. It wasnt because I suddenly found the mobs impossible to kill.

I then had a break from the game and came back when one tamriel hit and leveled another character and it felt easier and not as fun as the first time. Again whether this was the mobs being nerfed or just I had got better im not really sure.

spartaxoxo

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

He isn't just talking about now. He is talking about this game has grown every single year since One Tamriel. And how players consistently reject the harder content in favor of the easiest content for literally years. It's not just his interpretation either, they have many people looking at all facets of play. These developers know what is being used more than anyone else. The pandemic has nothing to do with it. This is generally true across the MMO genre.

You can't attribute that growth simply to the removal of veteran overland content. How can the removal of content in year two account for growth in year five?

He didn't. You're applying his comment to context that doesn't belong.

The devs have teams dedicated to player feedback and usage. They know which content we play and what we don't. They even know that a lot of people run around mobs rather than fighting them, for example.

We DO have hard content in this game and on Overland. We have stuff like the Harrowstorms. They can compare that usage to that of Dolmens and see which gets more use.

I actually just did that recently. I went at a time with a lot of people, and to the most popular world event spots.

Alik'r had probably around 35 people there. It was difficult to count because they weren't all loading in and there was a ton of movement. So many people wanted to do this that my performance took a hit.

I waited around 5 minutes for someone, anyone to touch the Southern Elsweyr dragons. Nobody did. So I did it myself to entice participation. 4 people showed up.

The Harrowstorm was started instantly by other players. There were about 7 people total that came and did them.

That's all way less popular than the Dolmen.

summ0004

Got the impression people generally did Dolmens for fast experience and leveling and gold because they cant be bothered to grind through the quest lines again, thats certainly the experience ive seen in Alkir desert.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

I see this thrown around a lot; this idea that people asking for this just don’t go do the Harder Content.

At the same time they also say: “you’re just used to Veteran content, don’t expect overland to cater to you”

So which one is it?

Why are you acting as though Overland and Dungeons/Trials are the same to try to make it seem like people are inconsistent? What an awful bad faith question.

"Nobody uses dragons" is in no way contradicted by "vet dungeons are popular with endgame players."

(I believe there was a miscommunication on my part but I will make my point)

Because those two arguments are the ones that are used against people asking for changes/options.

Read that again; I never made out Overland to be the same as Dungeons/Trials.

I pointed out the two most common stated sentiments from people that have made opposing arguments.
Which do come off as inconsistent when they’re used to generalize an entire group.

People asking for for changes/options are either

A: Players who don’t participate Vet endgame because if they were then they wouldn’t have this complaint.

B: Are Veterans wanting more Veteran content in which case there is already plentiful amount that they should be happy with.

Conclusion: either way there’s already Vet content so stop complaining and be happy about it.
——————————————————

So yes it is flawed and inconsistent when both of these are used as generalizations applied to everyone asking for changes/options

——————————————————

Another flaw in their reasoning though is the assumption that people are asking for Overland to be as hard as Vet Dungeon/Trial or Craglorn when that is Not the case.

Plenty of people asking for this do endgame content and have found Questing & Exploring to be boring due to the combat.

Plenty of people asking for this are casuals who have found Questing & Exploring to be boring due to the combat.

——————————————————

As to your point on Dolmens and Dragons/Harrowstorms - you’re talking about group content which is NOT what people are asking for or talking about.

No one is asking for more group content. Dragons/Harrowstorms actually highlight the problem where ZOS is trying to make it all inclusive at the same time have things harder.

Current Harrowstorm difficultly seems more appropriate to a Veteran instance of the Zone.

Why is a dolmen in a DLC harder than a dolmen in the base game?

But yes they have made bosses in Delves & Public Dungeons more interesting since base game.

SilverBride

summ0004 wrote: »

Got the impression people generally did Dolmens for fast experience and leveling and gold because they cant be bothered to grind through the quest lines again, thats certainly the experience ive seen in Alkir desert.

"...players are always going to do the thing that is the most efficient and is the least difficult thing for their time." - Rich Lambert

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

Read that again; I never made out Overland to be the same as Dungeons/Trials.

Yes. You did. I stated that "nobody uses the existing hard overland content, like dragons"

And that is what you compared to people making the argument that people should stick to instanced content.

That is making it seem like both responses were about the same thing when they were not. And what is worse is you made this argument while only quoting me, which makes not just the arguments sound inconsistent but makes it sound I like myself said two different things about the same content.

I did not.

I said nobody is really using Dragons.

And that people who are in the middle tier doing the easy instanced content should do more of the harder instanced content.

Those are not at all contradictory. They aren't even about the same thing. And both could be reduced to "people who like hard content should actually use it more often," if you really wanted to strip all context into the most barebones reductive reading possible.

It is not remotely inconsistent.

Iccotak

Elsonso wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

It makes sense for games to evolve and change as markets, competition and customers needs change in order to stop stagnation and freshen things up and you cannot simply compare launch success with present success and then expect it to go forward in a linear fashion with no change.

They actually have made quite a few changes. But those changes have largely not been utilized. A lot of people say they want vet overland and they like certain content, but then they don't actually go and play it.

Compare Dolmens to Dragons/Harrowstorms
Compare Coldharbour's public dungeon to Silent Halls in Blackwood
Compare the guar boss in base game to Kung Fu Kitty.

I think people prefer the difficulty in the actual story quests and bosses rather than publc dungeons and harrowstorms etc, although its nice to get both.

I havent purchased Blackwood because ive felt disengaged with the quest content in the past, so cant comment on its difficulty and whether its improved.

The quests are the story, and the story is the important part of the quest, not the final boss. The final boss is just part of the end of the story. The quest path to arrive at the ending is just as important as the final boss. I don't think they are going to deviate very far from that, as an epic solo battle at the end is just an ending, it is not the story.

And gameplay is part of the story experience.

Turns out if the gameplay is boring or not fun, then people have a less favorable view of the story.

This is an action rpg. If gameplay is truly irrelevant to the story then you might as well just put on a movie.

spartaxoxo

summ0004 wrote: »

Got the impression people generally did Dolmens for fast experience and leveling and gold because they cant be bothered to grind through the quest lines again, thats certainly the experience ive seen in Alkir desert.

Sure. That's probably part of it. But if there was this large amount of people who really wanted to do hard overland content, you'd think the Dragons and Harrowstorms would be more popular than they are. That crowd in particular often praises the dragons and bit my head off when I suggested they should scale in difficulty based on usage.

But, this is basically always the case for the dragons. People only want to do them if there are big rewards, otherwise they are largely abandoned.

Most of the people who like difficult content in my observation just want to use Overland to build some character up quickly, and then go use their uber builds in trials and dungeons. They like the Dragons and such in theory, they even go there once and in a blue moon just for the fun. But they don't actually spend any real time battling the dragons.

And most of the people who really want to use Overland for more than just a "one and done" thing seem to enjoy it as a relaxing, casual environment. And one who's ease allows them to experiment and have fun with a lot of really dumb builds they have fun with that they wouldn't use in harder content. The hard content they do on their mains, and mostly instanced.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Turns out if the gameplay is boring or not fun, then people have a less favorable view of the story.

This is an action rpg. If gameplay is truly irrelevant to the story then you might as well just put on a movie.

Boring is an opinion. I personally do not find overland the least bit boring. The gameplay in overland is just what it should be for what overland is... the base game and story for all players of all skill levels and experience.

Elsonso

Iccotak wrote: »

And gameplay is part of the story experience.
Turns out if the gameplay is boring or not fun, then people have a less favorable view of the story.

And there is game play as part of the story experience.

If you think the final bosses are boring, then I have to ask what it is about ESO that makes you stick around?

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Turns out if the gameplay is boring or not fun, then people have a less favorable view of the story.

This is an action rpg. If gameplay is truly irrelevant to the story then you might as well just put on a movie.

Boring is an opinion. I personally do not find overland the least bit boring. The gameplay in overland is just what it should be for what overland is... the base game and story for all players of all skill levels and experience.

So why should an inexperienced newcomer or casual players enjoyment of the story come at the expense of the enjoyment of more experienced players?

Sure, it’s doable by everyone - but is it Fun?
No one here is saying the content cannot be done. What they’re saying is that the gameplay of that content is boring.

Back in 2014 you found the gameplay not fun - that was your subjective take on the experience as well as many others. They made changes to make it more accessible.

Now it’s more fun for you in your subjective opinion.

You and others are satisfied with Story Bosses / Overland so therefore everyone else should be satisfied?

What makes your subjective fun more important than mine?

spartaxoxo

Also I'm gonna be honest here, that what's challenging for me is not doable for most new and casual players. And I am not even elite. I couldn't do Godslayer. And if it's not a challenge for me, then it's not gonna feel like anything but a slog.

So yea, I think new players being able to do the content at all outweighs the fun of my being challenged. Because it's not possible for it to be both a challenge for me and able to be done my a newbie. And story is supposed to be for everyone.

If it wasn't for the bleed, I could probably solo the dragons. I have soloed a Harrowstorm, back when the ghosts were more controllable. I should try that again at some point.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Read that again; I never made out Overland to be the same as Dungeons/Trials.

Yes. You did. I stated that "nobody uses the existing hard overland content, like dragons"

And that is what you compared to people making the argument that people should stick to instanced content.

That is making it seem like both responses were about the same thing when they were not. And what is worse is you made this argument while only quoting me, which makes not just the arguments sound inconsistent but makes it sound I like myself said two different things about the same content.

I did not.

I said nobody is really using Dragons.

And that people who are in the middle tier doing the easy instanced content should do more of the harder instanced content.

Those are not at all contradictory. They aren't even about the same thing. And both could be reduced to "people who like hard content should actually use it more often," if you really wanted to strip all context into the most barebones reductive reading possible.

It is not remotely inconsistent.

1. I addressed your point on Dragons/Harrowstorms in overland in an edit, I also pointed out there was some miscommunication on my part - go read the response again.

The edit response also points out the flaw in your logic.

2. This is not some deliberate sabotage. I focused on a specific sentiment that I disagree with. Even taking your point on Dolmens- I still disagree with it.

Elsonso

summ0004 wrote: »

Got the impression people generally did Dolmens for fast experience and leveling and gold because they cant be bothered to grind through the quest lines again, thats certainly the experience ive seen in Alkir desert.

There is no requirement in ESO that you do any quests, once you have completed a tutorial at least once. On your first character, you can step out of the tutorial, travel to a friend doing the dolmen run, and do nothing else in the game until you hit CP 3600. I fear that some people think you have to do this before you can do "end game content".

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

What makes your subjective fun more important than mine?

Nothing does. I wish everyone could enjoy ESO the way I do, but people have different likes and dislikes so it's not possible to please everyone. But this is a business first and foremost and decisions need to be made that are good for the business side of things, because that is what will keep ESO up and running.

I don't disagree with you on everything though. I fully support a scroll or flag to make story bosses more difficult for those who would like that.

summ0004

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also I'm gonna be honest here, that what's challenging for me is not doable for most new and casual players. And I am not even elite. I couldn't do Godslayer. And if it's not a challenge for me, then it's not gonna feel like anything but a slog.

So yea, I think new players being able to do the content at all outweighs the fun of my being challenged. Because it's not possible for it to be both a challenge for me and able to be done my a newbie. And story is supposed to be for everyone.

If it wasn't for the bleed, I could probably solo the dragons. I have soloed a Harrowstorm, back when the ghosts were more controllable. I should try that again at some point.

Thats the thing you can have the best of both worlds if they implement harder quest bosses and you satisfy more people without it affecting other players.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also I'm gonna be honest here, that what's challenging for me is not doable for most new and casual players. And I am not even elite. I couldn't do Godslayer. And if it's not a challenge for me, then it's not gonna feel like anything but a slog.

So yea, I think new players being able to do the content at all outweighs the fun of my being challenged. Because it's not possible for it to be both a challenge for me and able to be done my a newbie. And story is supposed to be for everyone.

If it wasn't for the bleed, I could probably solo the dragons. I have soloed a Harrowstorm, back when the ghosts were more controllable. I should try that again at some point.

It’s not about challenge it’s about the gameplay not being a slog, which can be achieved for Story bosses going forward as they are instanced content.

Something can be too challenging to the point of not being fun , just as something too easy can also Not be Fun.

Also if new players experience of the story is what’s being prioritized over long time or experienced players then it is no wonder that this is such a common subject and it is also questioned how well ESO does at retaining players.

Because basically Zones/Story is for new players. It doesn’t take that much to get a little better but if I do then I outgrow basically the majority of the game including the main story which the devs market to both old and new players.

And now we have an increasing amount of players who either don’t care or are disappointed by the story due to gameplay.

They spend all this time/money marketing the gameplay & story but then more players find out that gameplay is irrelevant in the story.