800k people don't seem to mind difficult overworld

kargen27

"And yet they do it, they divide the players into different instances."

Yeah they have overflow instances to help keep lag to a minimum. High population zones can have different instances and that can sometimes cause problems. For instance I could be in Craglorn and see someone in zone chat getting a trial group together and a guild mate also in Craglorn wouldn't see it.
Dragon hunting you could also port to a zone then go back again and there would be different dragons up. When they have to split the population one instance might have problems finding help for those dragons.

spartaxoxo

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

And yet they do it, they divide the players into different instances.

The only do it to manage performance when too many people are in the instance of a zone. Really not the same as permanent division.

JJOtterBear

As long as it is its own instance(s), then I don't see why not. Just as long as the game isn't changed for the rest of us, then i don't see the problem. the people wanting this are not the majority of players. so it doesn't seem as though the "splitting of the playerbase" would be that much of an issue. a small chunk of players going off to harder instance I don't think would hurt the rest of the playerbase.

As long as its something that doesn't impact the larger playerbase who find the game engaging as it is, then there is no reason to not at least give it a try. and to be perfectly honest, sometimes division is good (as seen in real life rn). i myself may even wander into a vet instance if it was there. just to see.

the only problem i foresee is that people will inevitably get bored with the vet instances (once more power creep sets in), and we'll be right back at square one. then what? nightmare mode where you always die and then we're right back to asking for it to be easier lol.

Also how are you going to balance vet mode without affecting the rest of the game? because that needs to be figured out as well.

Cireous

Amottica wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?

I do agree with the comments Rich has made on the subject. He makes the best case as to why the current state should not change and is based on the real data on player behavior as well as the incredible success they have seen with the game when they changed to the current overland model.

I play through all the main quests. I enjoy at least a week of unleashed criminal behavior per release. I gravitate towards the Overland group activities that contain a likelihood of failure without effort and numbers: Harrowstorms and Dragons. I always find pleasure in obtaining new furnishing recipes and wardrobe items through gameplay. I play all of the dungeons for skill points and gearsets. I have 2 fully leveled companions. I obsess over housing stuff and spend quite a lot time there, too, even though I may never create anything worthy of showing off.

The data on me undoubtly screams satisfied customer, buys nearly everything on the Crown store, plays through most of the content, but is that data accurate? How satisfied am I really? Does my last post seem like someone who is satisfied with their gaming experience?

I have a feeling the data on others might similarly tell a story that isn't as accurate as you would think.

trackdemon5512

spartaxoxo wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Here is my conclusion after this long thread.
I'm not welcome in this game and it is not for me.
I give up giving it a try. All you have done is discouraged me from wanting to make this a better experience for me and other people who think like me.
Nobody should be begging for this many years to enjoy a product they spent money on and continuing to do so is an incredible lack of self respect on my part.

You're far from the first and far from the last but I do appreciate you voicing it because there's likely a good portion of the veteran population that feels exactly the way you do. Probably more than anyone suspects, myself included. There's a reason this subject pops up everywhere TESO is discussed. I have several IRL and guild friends who used to login daily and now don't even follow what ZOS is up to expansion-wise besides a couple "spears or spellcrafting yet?" jokes. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point.

Far too much emphasis has been placed on the 'casual player experience' but I really want to ask everyone in this thread... It's been seven years with 15+ chapters and zone DLCs. Even if the casual player only played half of the chapter releases (let's say Morrowind, Greymoor, & Elsweyr) in any meaningful capacity, surely they'd have a character around CP200-300 assuming they're not hopping on alts the second they hit level 50?

If that's the case, why is this being downplayed as much as it is if pretty much everyone that has shown TESO loyalty over the years is approaching or past that point in progression where the game's struggles with power creep and lack of difficulty become extremely apparent? If you disagree, play devil's advocate for a moment. I mean it. Go in the overland and watch a CP300's combat encounter. The enemies aren't lasting long enough to perform whatever scripted actions they have. That's representative of the majority of the content in the game and the majority of the content being sold every year at retail.

It's time for ZOS to throw the veteran players who have been lining their pockets a bone. I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style.

What “veteran”/challenge seeking players currently get:

- vet instances of dungeons, arenas, trials
- Hard mode challenges of bosses in all dungeons
- Hard mode challenges of several sub-bosses in newer dungeons, the most recent having challenges for all main sub-bosses
- Optional side bosses (Black Drake Villa has an optional final boss with limited tries and harder difficulty based on how you challenged yourself on previous bosses)
- Hard Mode Challenges for two trials that are very difficult and highly customizable (VCR and VAS)
- A Highly Customized Solo Arena with optional bosses, optional buffs, optional paths, and a difficult final boss
- Hard Mode Sub-Bosses on all trials after Elsweyr (VSS, VKA, VRG)
- Optional additional Sub-Bosses in Rockgrove
- Skins, titles, dyes, mounts, body markings, personalities, style pages, emotes, Perfected Gear with improved stats, and furnishings for those that complete said content

I mean that’s a lot. Not only that but the number of challenges and rewards have steadily increased with each update for those players. The developers clearly have moved in a direction advantageous to veteran players demands and thus throwing them a bone.

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

I mean I'm not in favor of Vet Overland either but most of that is just the same content being listed different ways.

Like it's Vet Dungeons, Arenas, and Trials and their hardmodes. The "customization" is just different achievements for the same instance.

Except originally it was just normal and vet dungeons and paltry rewards.

Get 3 dyes and 1 title (DEADLANDS Adept). Normal and Vet Craglorn trials/arena. Get 9 dyes and 5 titles. Arena weapons

NEXT

Imperial City DLC - Get a free pet for HM/ND/SPD/VET clear on Both Dungeons. Get 2 dyes for vet

NEXT

VMA. 2 vet titles. A dye on normal. A Polymorph on vet. Arena Weapons

NEXT

VMOL. A HM title and a skin

NEXT

Vet Shadows of the Hist. A title and 2 skins

NEXT

Vet Horns of the Reach. 4 titles, a skin, a hat, a dye, and a locked house you can then purchase (Hakkvild’s High Hall)

NEXT

VHOF. 3 titles and a skin

NEXT

VAS. Perfected Trial Weapons. 3 titles and a skin (Variable HMs)

NEXT

Vet Dragon Bones. 4 titles. A skin. A personality. A dye

NEXT

VCR. Perfected Set Pieces per difficulty level. 4 titles. A skin. 1 dye (Variable HMs)

NEXT

Vet Wolfhunter. 1 Dye. 4 Titles. 1 skin and 1 personality

NEXT

VBRP. Perfected Arena Weapons. 2 titles. 1 skin

NEXT

Vet Wrathstone. 2 titles. A pet. A skin. And a dye

NEXT

VSS. Perfected Set Pieces. A skin. 4 titles. A mount. Purchasable furnishings. (Optional HMs on all bosses)

NEXT

Vet Scalebreaker. 1 dye. An outfit. A memento. A pet. 4 titles

NEXT

Vet Harrowstorm. A body marking. An outfit. 4 titles. A dye

NEXT

VKA. Perfected Set Pieces. 5 titles. A skin. A memento. A purchasable furnishing (Optional HMs on all bosses)

NEXT

Vet Stonethorn. 4 titles. A memento. A skin. A dye. (Optional HMs on all SG bosses, Optional Bosses in UG)

NEXT

VVH. Perfected Set Pieces. 3 titles. A skin. A dye. (Customizable Difficulty, Choose Your Path, Optional Bosses)

NEXT

Vet Flames of Ambition. 4 titles. A skin. A dye. A memento. A secret memento (HM main bosses plus optional side bosses in BDV)

NEXT

VRG. Perfected Set Pieces. 2 body markings. 4 titles. A mount. (Optional side bosses. HMs on all main bosses)

NEXT

Vet Waking Flame. 1 Dye. A memento. A Body Marking. 4 titles. (Optional bosses and HMs on all bosses for both dungeons)


It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

spartaxoxo

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

Pretty marginal comparatively though. The formula is clearly getting stale. I don't think vet overland is the answer but something more needs to be done.

Amottica

Cireous wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?

I do agree with the comments Rich has made on the subject. He makes the best case as to why the current state should not change and is based on the real data on player behavior as well as the incredible success they have seen with the game when they changed to the current overland model.

I play through all the main quests. I enjoy at least a week of unleashed criminal behavior per release. I gravitate towards the Overland group activities that contain a likelihood of failure without effort and numbers: Harrowstorms and Dragons. I always find pleasure in obtaining new furnishing recipes and wardrobe items through gameplay. I play all of the dungeons for skill points and gearsets. I have 2 fully leveled companions. I obsess over housing stuff and spend quite a lot time there, too, even though I may never create anything worthy of showing off.

The data on me undoubtly screams satisfied customer, buys nearly everything on the Crown store, plays through most of the content, but is that data accurate? How satisfied am I really? Does my last post seem like someone who is satisfied with their gaming experience?

I have a feeling the data on others might similarly tell a story that isn't as accurate as you would think.

@Cireous

Fantastic point and Rich noted they have seen your datapoint and that was part of reworking the game in One Tamriel. While they saw the overwhelming majority of players avoided the challenging questing content they knew there were some players who wanted a challenge and that is why they started making WBs more challenging and probably also what brought about the Harrowstorm and Dragon designs.

Even more to the point, Zenimax has seen how amazingly successful the game has been since they made that change.

marius_buys

IF SOME REALLY MUST HAVE DIFFICULT CONTENT ON OVERWORLD - MAKE IT A CHOICE

HARDMODE ON - With double drops (for instance)
NORMAL - Default as it is now

There is no need to alienate and frustrate newbies and casual players.

AlexanderDeLarge

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

You're misrepresenting the argument. We don't want to simply 'rerun old story content'. This is for all past, current and future content that we're not going to bother experiencing because it's trivialized beyond enjoyment due to the power creep that has been discussed ad-nauseam. Who wants to go through an entire campaign of riding a horse between destinations and one-shotting enemies for thirty or so hours?

Speaking for myself, I certainly don't and can't bother bringing myself to play through them unless I'm on a completely new character and due to the aforementioned power creep I have fifty levels of fun before it becomes miserable again.
1.) I'm running out of character slots to do this on.
2.) It's objectively the majority of the content in the game.
3.) It's the majority of what we're paying for every year.

I don't see how the existence of veteran dungeons, trials and arenas invalidates the fact that we're being told that the majority of the content wasn't designed for us even though that's what we're buying twice a year. A single chapter can get you up to the level 40 range so if you account for the base game, a chapter and a DLC or two, a small fraction of the available content will get you to that gets you to the point in progression (CP300) when the majority of the game's content becomes trivialized.

I don't know who these unicorn players are that have played multiple releases and somehow not reached that point in progression where the majority of the content becomes trivialized but is the only argument against it that it's not worth doing because there's no outcry yet? Because believe me it's inevitable and it's up to ZOS to decide whether or not to be proactive or reactive on the subject and I'm not quite sure how it makes sense to disregard loyal, paying customers to such a degree.

Biro123

I can only speak for myself, but I haven't logged in to ESO this month - basically because there is now an alternative.

One with less lag in PVP
One with challenging overland.

Yes, it has its own problems, one being crappy quests, but honestly, I'd rather have crappy quests with a sense of achievement when completed than good storylines/characters that are completely spoilt by their triviality.

Why should I keep paying for new content that only gives group instant content(not my thing at all) or trivial overland zones, while ignoring the CORE of rpgs.. Overcoming adversity to complete story-driven quests. There hasn't been anything in the expansions for me for a looong time except certain gear sets that were good for PVP. Maybe me subbing has made it look like I'm a happy customer in their stats? But I am absolutely not.

So yeah, I accept that I've lost the argument here. It's not that the other game has attracted me, its more that ZOSs direction has pushed me away. And for every one person speaking up about it, you can guarantee there are hundreds of others with similar views.

And no you can't has my stuff.

trackdemon5512

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

You're misrepresenting the argument. We don't want to simply 'rerun old story content'. This is for all past, current and future content that we're not going to bother experiencing because it's trivialized beyond enjoyment due to the power creep that has been discussed ad-nauseam. Who wants to go through an entire campaign of riding a horse between destinations and one-shotting enemies for thirty or so hours?

Speaking for myself, I certainly don't and can't bother bringing myself to play through them unless I'm on a completely new character and due to the aforementioned power creep I have fifty levels of fun before it becomes miserable again.
1.) I'm running out of character slots to do this on.
2.) It's objectively the majority of the content in the game.
3.) It's the majority of what we're paying for every year.

I don't see how the existence of veteran dungeons, trials and arenas invalidates the fact that we're being told that the majority of the content wasn't designed for us even though that's what we're buying twice a year. A single chapter can get you up to the level 40 range so if you account for the base game, a chapter and a DLC or two, a small fraction of the available content will get you to that gets you to the point in progression (CP300) when the majority of the game's content becomes trivialized.

I don't know who these unicorn players are that have played multiple releases and somehow not reached that point in progression where the majority of the content becomes trivialized but is the only argument against it that it's not worth doing because there's no outcry yet? Because believe me it's inevitable and it's up to ZOS to decide whether or not to be proactive or reactive on the subject and I'm not quite sure how it makes sense to disregard loyal, paying customers to such a degree.

I’m not misrepresenting the argument.

A group of players want an increased difficulty play mode for the overworld.

ZOS knows EXACTLY how many players attempt, engage, complete, redo the content that is designed for veteran players.

ZOS knows EXACTLY the engagement numbers for overland content, story quest completion, players rerunning quests on new toons for the same account, players repeating overland dailies.

ZOS knows EXACTLY it’s player retention rate, number of players who become inactive, number who subscribe, activities of those who subscribe, etc.

ZOS knows EXACTLY this kind of information from its data going back for 8 years.

ZOS, like any competent business beholden to shareholders, has crunched the numbers, written up internal reports, and debated over the results.

ZOS has long come to the conclusion that whatever population of ESO players wants said increased difficulty mode, in whatever format is most feasible and cost effective, still is not worth the investment of capital to make it happen. That said number of players either will not create a return on their investment or that implementing such a feature would be detrimental to the success of the overall product.

ZOS has also likely come to the conclusion that if these players leave they’re likely to be amongst the standard amount of players regularly lost. And that those joining for the first time, returning after a break, or long time players continuing to play more than make up for the loss.

Every single business in the world will disregard a paying customer if said customer’s demands aren’t good for the business’s bottom line. As it stands now, designing and implementing such a drastic redesigned overland combat feature (it is quite drastic) would be an act of charity.

colossalvoids

spartaxoxo wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

Pretty marginal comparatively though. The formula is clearly getting stale. I don't think vet overland is the answer but something more needs to be done.

And I'd also argue that BRP or vSS was the last time those endgame players actually felt rewarded. We shouldn't look at the amount of fluff we're getting but the quality and how important this fluff is for those players.

Like mementos and pets are generally a meme worthy addition, people always wanted a cool personality and a skin, outfit styles aren't too bad if they're more-less usable but that pretty rare, almost never saw anyone using any of them.

Rockgrove markings are the most recent meme, yeah there's a mount also but this one would be a prize for the ultimate smallest subset of players. Not even mentioning people not getting PB because some bug so not much groups going for it now.

Hallothiel

I don't know who these unicorn players are that have played multiple releases and somehow not reached that point in progression where the majority of the content becomes trivialized but is the only argument against it that it's not worth doing because there's no outcry yet? Because believe me it's inevitable and it's up to ZOS to decide whether or not to be proactive or reactive on the subject and I'm not quite sure how it makes sense to disregard loyal, paying customers to such a degree.

Unicorn players? Lol most players more like!

Can you not see that a majority of players LIKE overland as it is? They don’t want to have ridiculously epic battles as they move about, doing surveys & maps & farming, or just trolloping around Tamriel?

I appreciate that you personally would like harder content, but you have admitted to not actually playing the game much anymore. So not so much of a loyal paying customer.

Again, this is not about people here on the forums being nasty & thwarting you dreams, its people reporting what the developers themselves have said, plus looking at the practicalities. You may think it is easy to implement a toggle or vet instance - but it isn’t. So no matter how much you wish for it, unless it becomes financially viable, it won’t happen.

🦄

Hallothiel

while ignoring the CORE of rpgs.. Overcoming adversity to complete story-driven quests.

Appreciate it might be for you, but for many many people its the story. Or else why would there be so many websites dedicated to helping you get the awesome gear so you can be more op? Or find the ‘cheats’ to do this?!

Seriously, this focus on overcoming adversity & progression; not everyone plays games for that. That’s for real life, where it matters. Games are for fun. 😁

colossalvoids

Hallothiel wrote: »

Games are for fun. 😁

Exactly! And that's why people always be pushing for harder overland/quests/anything etc. (even if denied by zos or some random forum user) because challenge is fun for a ton of people. And that's the main reason most of the game seems un-fun to them.

trackdemon5512

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

Pretty marginal comparatively though. The formula is clearly getting stale. I don't think vet overland is the answer but something more needs to be done.

And I'd also argue that BRP or vSS was the last time those endgame players actually felt rewarded. We shouldn't look at the amount of fluff we're getting but the quality and how important this fluff is for those players.

Like mementos and pets are generally a meme worthy addition, people always wanted a cool personality and a skin, outfit styles aren't too bad if they're more-less usable but that pretty rare, almost never saw anyone using any of them.

Rockgrove markings are the most recent meme, yeah there's a mount also but this one would be a prize for the ultimate smallest subset of players. Not even mentioning people not getting PB because some bug so not much groups going for it now.

For true endgame players titles have become the ultimate reward. ZOS learned with all vet dungeons ending with the WOLFHUNTER DLC that locking cosmetics behind trifecta achievements didn’t encourage anyone but the true endgame players to attempt said versions of the content.

Casual veteran dungeon engagement shot up with the newer DLC dungeons offering dyes, skins, body markings, and style pages just for vet completion. ZOS probably also saw that the same endgame players still went for titles. That would account for why DLC dungeon titles are now locked behind hardmode and trifecta in one run clears.

The Sunspire Senche likely initially seemed a great reward to inspire players to attempt hard content. But ZOS also seemed to learn the lesson that the majority of players just got pissed that they could ever get such a reward due to their skill or inability to form solid groups.

ZOS has been treading a fine line between making more content and rewards to appease the true endgame players. But at the same time they’ve been making concessions to draw that casual crowd more into said types of combat instances. Easily gotten cosmetics, dyes, and in the case of trials and arenas imperfect sets for playing on normal have gone a long way.

Hallothiel

colossalvoids wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Games are for fun. 😁

Exactly! And that's why people always be pushing for harder overland/quests/anything etc. (even if denied by zos or some random forum user) because challenge is fun for a ton of people. And that's the main reason most of the game seems un-fun to them.

Way to only quote what suits your purpose! My post was the opposite of what you said! 🤣
Not everyone wants ‘challenge’ in a game. And it appears that’s the view of a majority of players in this game.

colossalvoids

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

Pretty marginal comparatively though. The formula is clearly getting stale. I don't think vet overland is the answer but something more needs to be done.

And I'd also argue that BRP or vSS was the last time those endgame players actually felt rewarded. We shouldn't look at the amount of fluff we're getting but the quality and how important this fluff is for those players.

Like mementos and pets are generally a meme worthy addition, people always wanted a cool personality and a skin, outfit styles aren't too bad if they're more-less usable but that pretty rare, almost never saw anyone using any of them.

Rockgrove markings are the most recent meme, yeah there's a mount also but this one would be a prize for the ultimate smallest subset of players. Not even mentioning people not getting PB because some bug so not much groups going for it now.

Casual veteran dungeon engagement shot up with the newer DLC dungeons offering dyes, skins, body markings, and style pages just for vet completion. ZOS probably also saw that the same endgame players still went for titles.

Obviously, but those endgame players not exactly were thrilled with titles offered but were completing content because always do 100% of every dlc, because of possible challenge and because there's nothing else to do really. You can give nothing as previously for tri and the rates won't change in a slightest.

colossalvoids

Hallothiel wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Games are for fun. 😁

Exactly! And that's why people always be pushing for harder overland/quests/anything etc. (even if denied by zos or some random forum user) because challenge is fun for a ton of people. And that's the main reason most of the game seems un-fun to them.

Way to only quote what suits your purpose! My post was the opposite of what you said! 🤣
Not everyone wants ‘challenge’ in a game. And it appears that’s the view of a majority of players in this game.

That's bread and butter of this thread afterall! But even not jokingly the fun is relative and that's the reason threads like that would emerge despite every counter argument made, even if there would be a zenimax online media post about ban on a suggestions of that sorts with ban penalty.

And because not everyone wants it it's only instance based group / solo challenges now while people want more of that. If game would be only about majority it would never get trials or dungeons, it would be just skyrimwithfriends-online. But gladly it's not only about majority.

Also I went out if my way to get Rich's permission making suggestions about difficulty, they're apparently not in a slightest way against it so the dead horse that they won't be interested is actually seems pretty dead.

summ0004

Another option is too reduce powercreep so there is not as much of a gap in power between new players and veteran players with champion points.

Overland is still too easy for my liking on an alt I have recently made, but its still playable and not as mind numbing if I tried to play through it on my main character.

I Know ZOS have become aware of powercreep issues and have done some stuff such as reduce critical chance and are going to reduce the crit damage cap, but as a whole the amount of damage some veteran players can pump out is far too high.

I would actually like to see champion points either get nerfed more heavily, or make it so the damage reduction and damage increases only apply in trials and dungeons and get disabled in overland.

Maya_Nur

Amottica wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Cireous wrote: »

1. I have to wonder, for everyone defending the current state of Overland, over and over, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year in the forums, how much time are they actually spending playing it?

I do agree with the comments Rich has made on the subject. He makes the best case as to why the current state should not change and is based on the real data on player behavior as well as the incredible success they have seen with the game when they changed to the current overland model.

I play through all the main quests. I enjoy at least a week of unleashed criminal behavior per release. I gravitate towards the Overland group activities that contain a likelihood of failure without effort and numbers: Harrowstorms and Dragons. I always find pleasure in obtaining new furnishing recipes and wardrobe items through gameplay. I play all of the dungeons for skill points and gearsets. I have 2 fully leveled companions. I obsess over housing stuff and spend quite a lot time there, too, even though I may never create anything worthy of showing off.

The data on me undoubtly screams satisfied customer, buys nearly everything on the Crown store, plays through most of the content, but is that data accurate? How satisfied am I really? Does my last post seem like someone who is satisfied with their gaming experience?

I have a feeling the data on others might similarly tell a story that isn't as accurate as you would think.

@Cireous

Fantastic point and Rich noted they have seen your datapoint and that was part of reworking the game in One Tamriel. While they saw the overwhelming majority of players avoided the challenging questing content they knew there were some players who wanted a challenge and that is why they started making WBs more challenging and probably also what brought about the Harrowstorm and Dragon designs.

Even more to the point, Zenimax has seen how amazingly successful the game has been since they made that change.

Yeah, when I came to ESO I didn't be able to kill even a standart quest boss with 100k HP. And I've left such quest... BUT, I have left it just to gain some strength and then return smashing everything in my way! I've also avoided vet dungeouns, trials and Craglorn, Maelstrom arena even become my personal nightmare for a while, but I returned every time and took a revanche!

Does big data consider a time newbie needs to get strong? Highly doubt that. It took more than a year to me, before I deal with vanilla's content.

Jeremy

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If they were to release a Veteran Version of every zone so players could actually go there to work on the quests they were currently doing they would be popular I promise you.

They would be ghost towns.

Then why aren't veteran dungeons ghost towns?

I would be careful not to assume just because you aren't interested in veteran content that means no one else would be either. Just the mere frequency this topic comes up on here should be proof enough of that.

Veteran dungeons and overland are two completely different things. Veteran dungeons are there for experienced players who want a challenge. Overland is there for everyone, including players new to ESO, to quest and to tell the story. There is no direct comparison.

Just because this topic comes up on the forums a lot does not mean the majority of players want it. This is what we call a "vocal minority".

You're just ignoring the entirety of my argument to make an unrelated point.

I am talking about adding an OPTIONAL Veteran version of the overland zones for experienced players who want a challenge while questing. So yes, in that respect what I am describing is exactly the same as veteran dungeons. So by your own logic, if having content for experienced players who want a challenge means it will become a "ghost town" (as you were claiming) then veteran dungeons would indeed be Ghost Towns. But they aren't. So in a sense you are defeating your own argument here by admitting there are players out there who want more of a challenge and who are willing to do veteran content.

And I never said a "majority" of players want it either. You're simply putting words in my mouth. What I said is that by judging by how often this topic comes up, clearly a lot of players want this. And a lot of them do. Whether it is a majority or not wasn't the point nor does it really matter. A majority of players don't do PvP but they still have PvP activities for players to do. So if your point is a majority of players must want something before it should be included in the game I would say that's a very tenuous stance.

Honestly, why do you (or anyone else for that matter) even care if Veteran players who find the normal overland too easy get a veteran equivalent to play in? It will help them enjoy the game more and has no negative impact on you at all.

We have simply been pointing out that:

1) We have had experience with a Veteran Overland system in which zones had different difficulties and more important players were of disparate power. It was terrible for a community experience

2) The game took a financial hit as a result of the difficulty and trouble of players actually getting together

3) That One Tamriel went a long way toward solving these issues

4) That subsequently released DLC zones that balanced difficulty and put all players on even footing were not only well received but improved profits significantly

5) That developer data, gleaned from not only overland content but player engagement for veteran content, has shown that the vast majority of players enjoy exploration and differentiation over difficulty

6) That the game has been rewritten and the content within tailored to be universally balanced and not subject to scaling

7) That the developers have repeatedly over the years said no and provided reasoning as to why personalized scaled difficulties or veteran overland isn’t coming back

And yet despite the data and 8 years of arguments/evidence against such y’all continue to posit this not only as an argument but something that the game needs. It’s like hearing “we need an AOE taunt” for the last several years in these forums despite the developers telling you over and over that combat has never been designed for you to need such and that asking for it amounts to nothing because it will never happen.

Again: your past examples are not applicable here because I am not suggesting they bring back the old Craglorn or Caldwell silver and gold. Those were flawed systems by design.

What I am asking for is for them do exactly what they have already done with Veteran Dungeons (which has been a success). You can still do your normal dungeons, and players who want more of a challenge can do Veteran dungeons. It's the same concept but for the overland, only without the tedious grind that was associated with veteran ranks or the limited scope of Craglorn.

What you’re asking for is either:

Veteran Overland Content
- the developers have said this would split zones into instances unnecessarily and eventually you get zones where a lack of players are doing it. The players who wanted said zones are now upset because they can’t do the content. Craglorn is the live example of this failing hard.

A Difficulty Slider
- the developers say again this would split the population and not only is it not in the best interest of the game as a whole but that the programming of such a system is far more complicated than “just a toggle” as overland enemies aren’t designed for scalability but rather player grouping and cooperation. You can’t be solo instanced and that other players engaging in the shared content will without a doubt render your difficult slider adjustments moot. You may die but they’ll still kill the world boss/dolmen/delve boss/etc and you will gain nothing for it.

The data has been there, analyzed, and the developers have said NO. I would ask players here to stop pigeonholing the data to just that from pre One Tamriel. As we and the developers have said it’s the cumulative data from over 8 years that lets them know what works.

I am not asking for a difficulty slider. I don't even know how that could would be programmed on an MMORPG (I doubt it could).

What I am asking for is for them to do exactly what they have already did for dungeons. And that is a system that ha already been proven to work.

Past attempts at creating veteran overland content have been flawed like I told you, so the data associated with them is not relevant here because it's an entirely different process than what I am recommending. The closest system to what I am describing is - again - the current dungeon system that offers both a normal and veteran version of the same content with no strings attached, and it works fine and I don't see you or anyone else complaining about it.

And for what I hope is the last time: Craglorn is not a live example of what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with what I am talking about. As I already explained, it was always silly for them to expect everyone to go sit in one zone and repeat the same dailies over and over. You would have similar results if they were to release just a single Veteran Dungeon. So let's stop pretending Craglorn is an example of what I'm talking about. Please.

Except the developers who have stated they are not instancing overland based on difficulty and that encounters aren’t even designed that way, to be scaled up or down. That has never been done. One Tamriel was a one time adjustment like CP 2.0.

If they did what you wanted not only would they instance the game again but you would instantly complain again when the rest of the game evened out playstyles with earlier content being easier than newer content. They aren’t going back to tweak all that again just for y’all.

The group finder system and Veteran Dungeons/Arenas/Trials does not work for overland.

It makes no sense to me to suggest zones that are already scaled aren't designed to be scaled. That is obviously false.

And this game is already instanced. So your second argument doesn't make any sense to me either. Why would players care that a game that is already instanced was instanced?

As far as what devs, the developers also said they were never going to abandon their subscription-only model. Now look at it. So let's stop treating what the developer's say as if they are written in stone. And I have said nothing about using the group finder for the overland, so that has nothing to do with anything I have said.

You clearly don’t know how this game works.

The zones aren’t scaled. YOU have a modifier attached to you up to getting a certain level. After you hit that level, the modifier disappears. Think of the entire game as set to CP160. Characters pre-Cp160 have a modifier so that their damage can match the game world. As you approach 160 your boosts are diminished until you match the world. Without that modifier it would take a new player with matching leveled gear about 10 minutes to kill mudcrabs and alits in starter zones.

Normal Dungeons have enemies set to CP50. Veteran Dungeons have those enemies set to CP160. The enemies and mobs within are specially tailored. That’s it.

Overland is not designed to be scaled. The enemies are at a set level. Their moves, damage, etc are all at a set place. You can nerf yourself by not eating, not wearing proper gear, etc. But there is not a reverse modifier for your stats. Why should there be? You want a modifier system on top of a modifier system on top of a system that already allows you to neuter yourself.

This game is programmed to merge/split instances based on population in order to keep the game world full. You want server like instances. This game doesn’t do that. It isn’t programmed to do that. If your instance has few players you’re automatically merged with others.

You will never get the challenge you want without completely solo instances. That’s never happening nor are privatized zone instances.

You are the one who clearly doesn't know this game works. Because yes, the overland is scaled. That's what One Tamriel did. It was the whole point of it in fact.

And no, I'm not asking for different server-instances. You do not have to divide the game up into different servers you join to have multiple instances. Though that isn't a terrible idea to add another server.

But if they can do veteran dungeons then they can do veteran landscapes as well. You don't have to "solo instance" them. All they would have to do is add a instance that is scaled to the current CP cap and give players the option to join it. It would be easy to do, make a lot of players happy, and would not negatively effect you what-so-ever.

Jeremy

Hallothiel wrote: »

I don't know who these unicorn players are that have played multiple releases and somehow not reached that point in progression where the majority of the content becomes trivialized but is the only argument against it that it's not worth doing because there's no outcry yet? Because believe me it's inevitable and it's up to ZOS to decide whether or not to be proactive or reactive on the subject and I'm not quite sure how it makes sense to disregard loyal, paying customers to such a degree.

Unicorn players? Lol most players more like!

Can you not see that a majority of players LIKE overland as it is? They don’t want to have ridiculously epic battles as they move about, doing surveys & maps & farming, or just trolloping around Tamriel?

I appreciate that you personally would like harder content, but you have admitted to not actually playing the game much anymore. So not so much of a loyal paying customer.

Again, this is not about people here on the forums being nasty & thwarting you dreams, its people reporting what the developers themselves have said, plus looking at the practicalities. You may think it is easy to implement a toggle or vet instance - but it isn’t. So no matter how much you wish for it, unless it becomes financially viable, it won’t happen.

🦄

A toggle would be difficult to implement since this is an MMO. But a veteran instance would not be. They already do it with dungeons. I used to program games, and I can tell you from some experience it would not be hard to do. A small alteration to the code to scale the monsters to a different level is all it would take. All the hard work has already been done. The zones have already been developed. The enemies have already been designed. The mechanisms for scaling those enemies have already been put in place. They have no problems putting out a veteran version of each new dungeon they release. They could do that just as easily with their landscape zones.

Jeremy

summ0004 wrote: »

Another option is too reduce powercreep so there is not as much of a gap in power between new players and veteran players with champion points.

Overland is still too easy for my liking on an alt I have recently made, but its still playable and not as mind numbing if I tried to play through it on my main character.

I Know ZOS have become aware of powercreep issues and have done some stuff such as reduce critical chance and are going to reduce the crit damage cap, but as a whole the amount of damage some veteran players can pump out is far too high.

I would actually like to see champion points either get nerfed more heavily, or make it so the damage reduction and damage increases only apply in trials and dungeons and get disabled in overland.

The problem with that approach is it makes progression less interesting and the endgame stagnant.

kringled_1

Jeremy wrote: »

You are the one who clearly doesn't know this game works. Because yes, the overland is scaled. That's what One Tamriel did. It was the whole point of it in fact.

If these are the kind of replies I was getting while I was away, then I'm glad I missed them. And I know the game is already divided up into instances. That was my point. Because the game is already instanced. So why would players care if it was instanced?

And if they can do veteran dungeons then they can do veteran landscapes as well. You don't have to "solo instance" them. All they would have to do is add a instance that is scaled to the current CP cap and give players the option to join it. It would be easy to do, make a lot of players happy, and would not negatively effect you what-so-ever.

The overland is not scaled to the player, it all exists at a single setting. Player stats and gear stats/bonuses for players under level 50 are scaled.

mrreow

My idea would be to remove 90% of the annoying overworld mobs and concentrate them in certain historic areas with various difficulities instead. Nobody really enjoys being chased by those pathetic non challenging creatures.

Jeremy

kringled_1 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You are the one who clearly doesn't know this game works. Because yes, the overland is scaled. That's what One Tamriel did. It was the whole point of it in fact.

If these are the kind of replies I was getting while I was away, then I'm glad I missed them. And I know the game is already divided up into instances. That was my point. Because the game is already instanced. So why would players care if it was instanced?

And if they can do veteran dungeons then they can do veteran landscapes as well. You don't have to "solo instance" them. All they would have to do is add a instance that is scaled to the current CP cap and give players the option to join it. It would be easy to do, make a lot of players happy, and would not negatively effect you what-so-ever.

The overland is not scaled to the player, it all exists at a single setting. Player stats and gear stats/bonuses for players under level 50 are scaled.

I never said it was scaled to the player. You can't scale content to an individual player on an MMO. That would be impossible on a game like this. You would have to have some kind of monster claim system to do that.

The zones used to be set to certain levels that gradually increased. One Tamriel changed that and scaled them all to level 50 and CP 160 I believe.. Which was a good change, because it allowed players to freely explore all the zones without vastly out-leveling the content and making it so easy monsters wouldn't even drop you loot.

The problem is the game has grown a lot since then, with more CP, better gear etc. So it's no longer scaled to a sufficient level to provide veteran players with an adequate challenge. Adding an optional veteran version of each zone scaled to a higher level would fix the problem,.

Parasaurolophus

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Here is my conclusion after this long thread.
I'm not welcome in this game and it is not for me.
I give up giving it a try. All you have done is discouraged me from wanting to make this a better experience for me and other people who think like me.
Nobody should be begging for this many years to enjoy a product they spent money on and continuing to do so is an incredible lack of self respect on my part.

You're far from the first and far from the last but I do appreciate you voicing it because there's likely a good portion of the veteran population that feels exactly the way you do. Probably more than anyone suspects, myself included. There's a reason this subject pops up everywhere TESO is discussed. I have several IRL and guild friends who used to login daily and now don't even follow what ZOS is up to expansion-wise besides a couple "spears or spellcrafting yet?" jokes. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point.

Far too much emphasis has been placed on the 'casual player experience' but I really want to ask everyone in this thread... It's been seven years with 15+ chapters and zone DLCs. Even if the casual player only played half of the chapter releases (let's say Morrowind, Greymoor, & Elsweyr) in any meaningful capacity, surely they'd have a character around CP200-300 assuming they're not hopping on alts the second they hit level 50?

If that's the case, why is this being downplayed as much as it is if pretty much everyone that has shown TESO loyalty over the years is approaching or past that point in progression where the game's struggles with power creep and lack of difficulty become extremely apparent? If you disagree, play devil's advocate for a moment. I mean it. Go in the overland and watch a CP300's combat encounter. The enemies aren't lasting long enough to perform whatever scripted actions they have. That's representative of the majority of the content in the game and the majority of the content being sold every year at retail.

It's time for ZOS to throw the veteran players who have been lining their pockets a bone. I really don't feel like we're asking for much here, it can be done with existing phasing tech and a flat modifier Warframe Steel Path-style.

What “veteran”/challenge seeking players currently get:

- vet instances of dungeons, arenas, trials
- Hard mode challenges of bosses in all dungeons
- Hard mode challenges of several sub-bosses in newer dungeons, the most recent having challenges for all main sub-bosses
- Optional side bosses (Black Drake Villa has an optional final boss with limited tries and harder difficulty based on how you challenged yourself on previous bosses)
- Hard Mode Challenges for two trials that are very difficult and highly customizable (VCR and VAS)
- A Highly Customized Solo Arena with optional bosses, optional buffs, optional paths, and a difficult final boss
- Hard Mode Sub-Bosses on all trials after Elsweyr (VSS, VKA, VRG)
- Optional additional Sub-Bosses in Rockgrove
- Skins, titles, dyes, mounts, body markings, personalities, style pages, emotes, Perfected Gear with improved stats, and furnishings for those that complete said content

I mean that’s a lot. Not only that but the number of challenges and rewards have steadily increased with each update for those players. The developers clearly have moved in a direction advantageous to veteran players demands and thus throwing them a bone.

But the veteran players who want to rerun old story content are clearly a fairly small subset of the vet player crowd. So much so that throwing them a vet overland or slider is too much for too little.

I mean I'm not in favor of Vet Overland either but most of that is just the same content being listed different ways.

Like it's Vet Dungeons, Arenas, and Trials and their hardmodes. The "customization" is just different achievements for the same instance.

Except originally it was just normal and vet dungeons and paltry rewards.

Get 3 dyes and 1 title (DEADLANDS Adept). Normal and Vet Craglorn trials/arena. Get 9 dyes and 5 titles. Arena weapons

NEXT

Imperial City DLC - Get a free pet for HM/ND/SPD/VET clear on Both Dungeons. Get 2 dyes for vet

NEXT

VMA. 2 vet titles. A dye on normal. A Polymorph on vet. Arena Weapons

NEXT

VMOL. A HM title and a skin

NEXT

Vet Shadows of the Hist. A title and 2 skins

NEXT

Vet Horns of the Reach. 4 titles, a skin, a hat, a dye, and a locked house you can then purchase (Hakkvild’s High Hall)

NEXT

VHOF. 3 titles and a skin

NEXT

VAS. Perfected Trial Weapons. 3 titles and a skin (Variable HMs)

NEXT

Vet Dragon Bones. 4 titles. A skin. A personality. A dye

NEXT

VCR. Perfected Set Pieces per difficulty level. 4 titles. A skin. 1 dye (Variable HMs)

NEXT

Vet Wolfhunter. 1 Dye. 4 Titles. 1 skin and 1 personality

NEXT

VBRP. Perfected Arena Weapons. 2 titles. 1 skin

NEXT

Vet Wrathstone. 2 titles. A pet. A skin. And a dye

NEXT

VSS. Perfected Set Pieces. A skin. 4 titles. A mount. Purchasable furnishings. (Optional HMs on all bosses)

NEXT

Vet Scalebreaker. 1 dye. An outfit. A memento. A pet. 4 titles

NEXT

Vet Harrowstorm. A body marking. An outfit. 4 titles. A dye

NEXT

VKA. Perfected Set Pieces. 5 titles. A skin. A memento. A purchasable furnishing (Optional HMs on all bosses)

NEXT

Vet Stonethorn. 4 titles. A memento. A skin. A dye. (Optional HMs on all SG bosses, Optional Bosses in UG)

NEXT

VVH. Perfected Set Pieces. 3 titles. A skin. A dye. (Customizable Difficulty, Choose Your Path, Optional Bosses)

NEXT

Vet Flames of Ambition. 4 titles. A skin. A dye. A memento. A secret memento (HM main bosses plus optional side bosses in BDV)

NEXT

VRG. Perfected Set Pieces. 2 body markings. 4 titles. A mount. (Optional side bosses. HMs on all main bosses)

NEXT

Vet Waking Flame. 1 Dye. A memento. A Body Marking. 4 titles. (Optional bosses and HMs on all bosses for both dungeons)


It’s clear that over the last several years strides have been made to better reward vet players and give them more challenges to do. Yes it seems similar but there is definite progress being made.

Nevertheless, I see how the dungeons are losing their relevance. I often farm the mask page and I see how it gets harder and harder to create a party. Previously, you just had to throw the phrase in Craglorn "lfm 3dd for ...." as you wrote in / pm, there are many advantages. For six keys, it seems impossible at all. Objectively, look in TTC EU for prices and availability of motifs from dlc dungeons. At some point, there were so few of them that prices doubled for almost all motives. I sell pages of gloves or belts for 60-80k depending on the dungeon. I recently sold chests from BDV for 800k. And more chests from Cauldron for 600 and 542k. But these are fairly new dungeons.
Yes, there are dungeons in the game ... But can their veteran versions be made more relevant? Can make more items for keys?

Elsonso

Jeremy wrote: »

The zones used to be set to certain levels that gradually increased. One Tamriel changed that and scaled them all to level 50 and CP 160 I believe.. Which was a good change, because it allowed players to freely explore all the zones without vastly out-leveling the content and making it so easy monsters wouldn't even drop you loot.

ESO does not currently have mob scaling. (Edit: and I don't think it had it before One Tamriel, either) All monsters in the game are fixed level. The player scales to overland until they get to CP 160.

One Tamriel eliminated the mobs leveled by zone and replaced them with max level mobs, but it sounds like this was not done by scaling, but by editing.

Jeremy wrote: »

A toggle would be difficult to implement since this is an MMO. But a veteran instance would not be. They already do it with dungeons. I used to program games, and I can tell you from some experience it would not be hard to do. A small alteration to the code to scale the monsters to a different level is all it would take. All the hard work has already been done. The zones have already been developed. The enemies have already been designed. The mechanisms for scaling those enemies have already been put in place. They have no problems putting out a veteran version of each new dungeon they release. They could do that just as easily with their landscape zones.

The idea of a veteran overland zone is certainly possible. It would double the number of zones that they have, and double the amount of base server capacity needed, which is just what it would take to have one instance of every zone, and every zone difficulty. No one outside of ZOS knows how they have the megaserver architecture done, and can talk about it, but here in the forum we have to consider that this would require a substantial increase in the server hardware.

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is the game has grown a lot since then, with more CP, better gear etc. So it's no longer scaled to a sufficient level to provide veteran players with an adequate challenge. Adding an optional veteran version of each zone scaled to a higher level would fix the problem,.

I don't see that happening, at least not in the current phase of development. This game has a fixed and easily accessible overland with difficulty added in delves, dungeons, arenas, trials, and world bosses. It looks like it is just the way that they decided to make the game. They seem very reluctant to entertain the idea of a change, which simply says to me that they think the game is where it needs to be, or is at least on the right track.

Jeremy

mrreow wrote: »

My idea would be to remove 90% of the annoying overworld mobs and concentrate them in certain historic areas with various difficulities instead. Nobody really enjoys being chased by those pathetic non challenging creatures.

Elsonso wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The zones used to be set to certain levels that gradually increased. One Tamriel changed that and scaled them all to level 50 and CP 160 I believe.. Which was a good change, because it allowed players to freely explore all the zones without vastly out-leveling the content and making it so easy monsters wouldn't even drop you loot.

ESO does not currently have mob scaling. (Edit: and I don't think it had it before One Tamriel, either) All monsters in the game are fixed level. The player scales to overland until they get to CP 160.

One Tamriel eliminated the mobs leveled by zone and replaced them with max level mobs, but it sounds like this was not done by scaling, but by editing.

Jeremy wrote: »

A toggle would be difficult to implement since this is an MMO. But a veteran instance would not be. They already do it with dungeons. I used to program games, and I can tell you from some experience it would not be hard to do. A small alteration to the code to scale the monsters to a different level is all it would take. All the hard work has already been done. The zones have already been developed. The enemies have already been designed. The mechanisms for scaling those enemies have already been put in place. They have no problems putting out a veteran version of each new dungeon they release. They could do that just as easily with their landscape zones.

The idea of a veteran overland zone is certainly possible. It would double the number of zones that they have, and double the amount of base server capacity needed, which is just what it would take to have one instance of every zone, and every zone difficulty. No one outside of ZOS knows how they have the megaserver architecture done, and can talk about it, but here in the forum we have to consider that this would require a substantial increase in the server hardware.

Jeremy wrote: »

The problem is the game has grown a lot since then, with more CP, better gear etc. So it's no longer scaled to a sufficient level to provide veteran players with an adequate challenge. Adding an optional veteran version of each zone scaled to a higher level would fix the problem,.

I don't see that happening, at least not in the current phase of development. This game has a fixed and easily accessible overland with difficulty added in delves, dungeons, arenas, trials, and world bosses. It looks like it is just the way that they decided to make the game. They seem very reluctant to entertain the idea of a change, which simply says to me that they think the game is where it needs to be, or is at least on the right track.

One Tamriel scaled the monsters in all zones to level 50 and CP 160. Before One Tamriel, the monsters in most zones were set to a much lower level. They were all scaled upward. So anyone who doesn't think they scaled the monsters on this game must be relatively new, and must not have played this game prior to One Tamriel.

As to your second point: they already have multiple instances of every zone. So it would not require a substantial increase in the sever hardware. They used to have Veteran Zones, and that was years ago, and one would assume their server infrastructure has increased since then. So it's illogical to think they don't have the resources to do something they have already done before. The problem was they accompanied them with veteran ranks which turned into a tedious grind. It also didn't help that you had to clear a lot of quests before you could access them.

To your third point: the developers change this game all the time. The last thing these developers are is reluctant to entertain the idea of change.