Make less incentive for kill counts in Non-deathmatch BG games?

Stratti

This seems to be an issue with PVP going back to 2004 in WoW. Some people do not care about team , what they ought to do and whether they follow objectives. There is no incentive that you can put in place to avoid. If there is any sort of kill count score then ZOS may as well forget about the whole battleground thing. To be honest it does not happen that much, sometimes it does but many times people do their best.

One of the things to keep in mind is that sometimes people get stuck into combat with others and stay there.

Thoragaal

marshill88 wrote: »

More often than I wish, in BG matches such as Chaosball or domination, there are people on my team who only care about their kill counts. Of course, this generally causes the entire team to lose. Would it be a good idea to make less incentive for playing like this?

No. Instead they should incentivize the reason to actually win the match.

Erelah

As many in this thread do not seem to realize the definition of PVP I will explain. It is an acronym meaning player versus player. In the context of Battleground it places one group of players against another group of players. Each match having various different objectives.

Often times the objectives may be capturing the ball, capturing and defending a flag, capturing or defending a relic, or in one case defeating opponents.

In Imperial City the objective is capturing districts with rewards for defeating monsters or other players.

In Cyrodill the objective is capturing towns, resources, and castles with rewards for defeating other players or capturing the various points.

In signing up for a battle ground and ignoring the objectives coded into the match a player who does such is griefing the other players. Personal opinions aside it is literally not the objectives codes into the match and not playing as intended.

spartaxoxo

relentless_turnip wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have never understood why people don't want to PvP in PvP. I will play the objective to some degree, but I queue for a BG to fight other players and have zero time for my team mates that complain about it. In the same way I have no time for people that complain about getting killed in IC. You are in a PvP zone the over arching theme shouldn't come as a suprise to you.

In fact I think zos should do more to incentives PvP in the games that reward avoiding it. Like domination should have only have 2 flags so you have to fight for them. Otherwise the team that avoids PvP usually wins.

The overarching theme of the game mode shouldn't come as a surprise for you. Refusing to play the objective primarily in an objective based game mode is as selfish as going into IC and expecting people not to kill you. Your stance is pretty hypocritical.

The overarching theme in any PvP zone is to PvP. I.e. fight players... How is it hypocritical? It isn't me contradicting myself in either circumstance. I simply said the notion is equivalent to... I haven't embodied a standard in which I don't agree with which would be hypocritical... Your accusation seems uncalled for and nonsensical.

.

You are taking a secondary objective that you enjoy and focusing on it. And making a request to have that playstyle be validated by gameplay changes.

You are at the same time looking down on people in IC that are taking a secondary objective that they enjoy and focusing on it. And who are making a request to have that playstyles be validated by gameplay changes.

Calling killing players the primary goal of those particular Battlegrounds modes is factually untrue. The primary objective of capture the relic is to capture relics. The primary objective of chaosball is for your team to hold the chaosball as long as possible.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You are NOT focusing on the objective and primary intended gameplay in those game modes. PVP doesn't solely mean killing. Any activity in which a player is set against another human player rather than AI is pvp. Your primary objective changes with each game mode, but all are PVP.

Your love of killing players doesn't change that fact.

There ARE players to kill but they are a secondary objective. Just as there ARE PVE activities in IC but they are secondary objectives.

Ninrod86

After reading comments on this post, Im 100% sure that is game will be always intented for causals pve players.

Pvp players play it for fun, not for rewards. And it seem's that is a very hard thing for those pve daily questers on Bg's to understand. Also, if you are one of those ppl that leaves your team mates to die while you chase flags and stuff .... better not even say... or the woke hammer will hit me for sure.

dinokstrunz

A lot of people have pretty much cleared and have obtained everything to do with BGs by now, what else is there to do but kill. Rewards are old and stale and medal score is meaningless. Create new rewards, let us see our mmr and give us more reasons to play objectives outside deathmatch. Until then every game mode is deathmatch if there's gonna be people disappointed with that all I have to say is "tough."

spartaxoxo

dinokstrunz wrote: »

A lot of people have pretty much cleared and have obtained everything to do with BGs by now, what else is there to do but kill. Rewards are old and stale and medal score is meaningless. Create new rewards, let us see our mmr and give us more reasons to play objectives outside deathmatch. Until then every game mode is deathmatch if there's gonna be people disappointed with that all I have to say is "tough."

I'll take "'Why is PVP so miserable for newcomers?' for 1000, Alex!"

marshill88

spartaxoxo wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

A lot of people have pretty much cleared and have obtained everything to do with BGs by now, what else is there to do but kill. Rewards are old and stale and medal score is meaningless. Create new rewards, let us see our mmr and give us more reasons to play objectives outside deathmatch. Until then every game mode is deathmatch if there's gonna be people disappointed with that all I have to say is "tough."

I'll take "'Why is PVP so miserable for newcomers?' for 1000, Alex!"

yea, exactly! Hah. i love PVP but some players are like brain dead orangutans just running around getting kills with absolutely zero capability of tactical fighting. BG is designed around different tactical modes, all with PVP in mind. Some players just couldn't care less about their team and play pretty brain dead. It would be nice to see BG's have a slight rework to bring up the incentive for a team win and address the problem of rabid mindless pvp'ers who join a team game, only to have absolutely no interest in the team.

It really sucks when im in Domination and my team loses and in the game report one of my teammates has 28 kills but the dork didn't once go for a single flag meanwhile I'm playing hard to help our team win.

I'd rather have a terrible PVP'er join and help the team with effort then some super Master Tank who can kill everyone and yet abandon the team and doesn't care at all about winning the match. These are by far the worst players in BG. THey are worse than noobs, IMHO (noobies who want to do their best and try to win are always welcome on my teams)

ThreeXB

It is frustrating when players don't help towards objectives in BGs, if killing while playing towards objectives great.

It is equally annoying in Cyrodiil when players don't help their alliance or score. Unfortunately some of the "best:" pvpers are the most guilty of this.

I think the best way to remedy this would be make a battlroyal mode for single player, 4 man, 12 man and guild vs guild.

Rest of players who want to play objectives would be able to more effectively . Just my 2 cents.

relentless_turnip

spartaxoxo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have never understood why people don't want to PvP in PvP. I will play the objective to some degree, but I queue for a BG to fight other players and have zero time for my team mates that complain about it. In the same way I have no time for people that complain about getting killed in IC. You are in a PvP zone the over arching theme shouldn't come as a suprise to you.

In fact I think zos should do more to incentives PvP in the games that reward avoiding it. Like domination should have only have 2 flags so you have to fight for them. Otherwise the team that avoids PvP usually wins.

The overarching theme of the game mode shouldn't come as a surprise for you. Refusing to play the objective primarily in an objective based game mode is as selfish as going into IC and expecting people not to kill you. Your stance is pretty hypocritical.

The overarching theme in any PvP zone is to PvP. I.e. fight players... How is it hypocritical? It isn't me contradicting myself in either circumstance. I simply said the notion is equivalent to... I haven't embodied a standard in which I don't agree with which would be hypocritical... Your accusation seems uncalled for and nonsensical.

.

You are taking a secondary objective that you enjoy and focusing on it. And making a request to have that playstyle be validated by gameplay changes.

You are at the same time looking down on people in IC that are taking a secondary objective that they enjoy and focusing on it. And who are making a request to have that playstyles be validated by gameplay changes.

Calling killing players the primary goal of those particular Battlegrounds modes is factually untrue. The primary objective of capture the relic is to capture relics. The primary objective of chaosball is for your team to hold the chaosball as long as possible.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You are NOT focusing on the objective and primary intended gameplay in those game modes. PVP doesn't solely mean killing. Any activity in which a player is set against another human player rather than AI is pvp. Your primary objective changes with each game mode, but all are PVP.

Your love of killing players doesn't change that fact.

There ARE players to kill but they are a secondary objective. Just as there ARE PVE activities in IC but they are secondary objectives.

I am not stating facts. I am simply saying no one has the right to dictate how people enjoy this game. I play the objective and enjoy fighting players. It is my opinion and my expectation to fight players when I enter a PvP zone. If I capture a flag during that process so be it. I am not stating how a BG should be played. I tend to go with the flow when I enter a match and don't think it is my right to dictate to other players how they enjoy their experience.

Mythreindeer

1. Fix performance in Cyrodil.
2. Allow for choice in BG (if, as is likely, not enough players to warrant choice, remove it from game to be replaced with #3)
3. A new Arena, que for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. Can have requisite awards.
4. IC - no clue what do with it.

merevie

*see person in execute range*
*run away to pixel ball*

NOPE

dinokstrunz

spartaxoxo wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

A lot of people have pretty much cleared and have obtained everything to do with BGs by now, what else is there to do but kill. Rewards are old and stale and medal score is meaningless. Create new rewards, let us see our mmr and give us more reasons to play objectives outside deathmatch. Until then every game mode is deathmatch if there's gonna be people disappointed with that all I have to say is "tough."

I'll take "'Why is PVP so miserable for newcomers?' for 1000, Alex!"

I'll take "why ZoS has relegated PvP to obscurity? for 1000." Just deal with it. ZoS has made PvP what it is, it's on them to sort it out not the players. "play the way you want" right?

Reverb

I’m going to put both sides of this argument into the same bucket as people who complain about the dungeon groups they get in the pugfinder.

Nobody gets to decide that what’s important to them must also be important to other people. You aren’t entitled to say how other people should play the game just because it’s what you want. Don’t queue for a random group and complain about random outcomes. If you want to be guaranteed an objective based team, put together your own team. Same if you want to ensure your team fights and doesn’t focus objectives. If you queue without a group, accept that you’ll be placed with people who don’t have to want what you want.

NordSwordnBoard

Remember to focus on the real enemy here: The devs who stuck us in this no choice mode.

What we are witnessing is a community resisting what has been imposed on them.

I'm angry that chaos ball titles are now forever out of reach with random ques. I want "The Merciless" title for some toons but it's not worth sitting through games I don't want to play. BGs are in the worst state ever right now.

Might as well force people to que for everything random: Gray Host, IC, or BGs if the devs think that's how we like to pvp.

divnyi

Yeah, sure, all the PvPers love objective-oriented gameplay that resolves in running 50k harbinger tank and standing on flag or relic or whatever.

MurderMostFoul

I always play the objective in non-DM BGs, because I feel like playing for kills against players who are playing the objectives is cheap, and I like winning.

However, I don't get upset about the players who just play for kills in objective modes. I enjoy PvP combat much more than I enjoy playing keep away, or flag race. If you do too, and you choose to focus your time on PvP combat, so be it. The problem isn't players ignoring the objective, the problem is ZOS ignoring the players who don't want to play the objective, and forcing them in to modes they don't like 80% of the time.

xDeusEJRx

Seems people don't understand the other's point of views in this thread. Let's break down why people do what they do and how it's come to this.

In favor of people who play just to kill:
I can understand the desire to just gain kills in battlegrounds. The problem is zos doesn't give the option for people to play any game mode that's about actual fighting. Cyrodiil is primarily riding around on a horse taking objectives as a group, but the actual PVP is a lot less of the overall time spent in cyrodiil.(Lots of time in cyrodil is repairing and riding around). BG's has an actual fighting gamemode but it's hidden behind a queue that has a 1/3 chance of giving people that fight game mode. They need to allow individual queues again so people can fight as they want. Dueling, dueling is the only real way to just fight players but the problem with dueling is there's no designated dueling zone. Waiting in a town is a waste of time because people in towns are primarily wanting to do PVE content not dueling. They need a dueling queue and that would help to sate people's desires to do fighting.

In favor of people who want to play objectives:
I can also understand people's frustrations about objectives, some people do BGs with the intent to get their daily BG and get daily rewards and extra CP/EXP and if their teammates aren't in it to win it, you're screwing their chances to get that extra CP and EXP. So it can be frustrating in that regard, also people might want a change of pace and pvp content centered around objectives because that leads to a different pvp experience than just go right at someone in a brawl fest.

Thoughts:
I personally think there's an easy fix to this, ZoS needs to add actual pvp content that caters to people who just want to fight other players. Add a dueling queue to the game, add a queue to BGs that allow people to pick the content they want and there won't be this issue.

Urzigurumash

I haven't really read this thread, because we already know the answer:

One mode only. Chaosball. Ks count, you can win with only Ks, you can win with no Ks. Every playstyle has a role, everyone is happy.

nukk3r

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I haven't really read this thread, because we already know the answer:

One mode only. Chaosball. Ks count, you can win with only Ks, you can win with no Ks. Every playstyle has a role, everyone is happy.

Sadly it's the most hated mode because DM crowd hates the objective, non-DM crowd hates the cheerful slaughter it brings.

Minyassa

I wish they would just do a separate Deathmatch queue and have done with it so that people who want to play other team games without fools ruining them could do that. Some of us actually think "sports, but where you get to actually kill someone who tries to take the ball instead of just body-checking" is an awesome concept.

Urzigurumash

nukk3r wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I haven't really read this thread, because we already know the answer:

One mode only. Chaosball. Ks count, you can win with only Ks, you can win with no Ks. Every playstyle has a role, everyone is happy.

Sadly it's the most hated mode because DM crowd hates the objective, non-DM crowd hates the cheerful slaughter it brings.

If the only thing these two crowds can find agreement on is their hatred of Chaosball, all the more evidence it's the answer.

Skoomah

It’s called BATTLE grounds.

Battle is defined as... a sustained fight between large organized armed forces.

Keyword FIGHT

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If the only thing these two crowds can find agreement on is their hatred of Chaosball, all the more evidence it's the answer.

I hate chaosball because of it's mechanics. Like, grabbing a ball by clicking "use" button during combat is outmost stupidity, it bugs out into unusable state sometimes. It should just go to the killer of the ball carrier, ez solution to make it slaughter-friendly.

Second point why I hate chaosball is safe-spots. Lots of maps have them. Like hard-reaching places behind fences, tiny space edges behind big columns, places that require a lot of precise jumping to get. They need to seriously look on their chaosball maps to at least remove fences places.

exeeter702

The issue is in the way ZOS has implemented their version of BGs. The map design and the 3 team affair creates an environment where playing objectives actively encourages avoiding actual player vs player interactions.

If there was a stronger focus on map design and game mode being inherent to specific maps where pvp interaction was a requisite for getting through to the objectives, that would be a much more appealing environment.

Urzigurumash

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If the only thing these two crowds can find agreement on is their hatred of Chaosball, all the more evidence it's the answer.

I hate chaosball because of it's mechanics. Like, grabbing a ball by clicking "use" button during combat is outmost stupidity, it bugs out into unusable state sometimes. It should just go to the killer of the ball carrier, ez solution to make it slaughter-friendly.

Second point why I hate chaosball is safe-spots. Lots of maps have them. Like hard-reaching places behind fences, tiny space edges behind big columns, places that require a lot of precise jumping to get. They need to seriously look on their chaosball maps to at least remove fences places.

That's true, but if we're talking about what's ideal then the bugs with the ball would be fixed (although they mostly have been) and those safe spots would be eliminated. Even better - give Arcane University and Mor Khazgur a nice vacation.

As for the ball automatically going to the Chaos Hunter, interesting idea.

exeeter702 wrote: »

The issue is in the way ZOS has implemented their version of BGs. The map design and the 3 team affair creates an environment where playing objectives actively encourages avoiding actual player vs player interactions.

If there was a stronger focus on map design and game mode being inherent to specific maps where pvp interaction was a requisite for getting through to the objectives, that would be a much more appealing environment.

Not Chaosball though. One could make the argument it encourages a 3 way fight more than DM, since in DM sometimes the two stronger teams are racing to see who can farm the weakest team the most quickly, and avoiding each other.

Even if it's not the best at encouraging sustained fights, I still think Crazy King is fun after all these years. I think the current system would be enjoyed more if Relic and Domination were just taken off the list for now, and there was a 1/3 chance of DM, Chaosball, or Crazy King.

Jameson18

I play 3-5 battlegrounds per day after work in the evening. I haven't seen a death match in over a week.

Xargas13

Honestly I like having high kill count, but I prefer to have it while doing the objective. The only reason I dislike DM is because it's hard to find 1v1, many players depend on their groups and avoid it. Engaging in big brawls is a no for me, because I am not very tanky, if I get focused I die rather quickly. So I prefer objectives, where poor souls decide to capture flag alone, and then I can have fun and find what I'm looking for.

RedTalon

Land grabs punishes dmers enough has is if they kill off flags they get zero points and on flags 10 ponts, capture only rewarrrds assits or killing relic holds, same for chaosball. So its already punishing kill seekers outside of deathmatches..

Why ques need to return to the old ways.

Sorry for errors and typos

Alchimiste1

Fhritz wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and that run around doing objectives.

No, thanks.

Instead, go play cyro.

Most of us don't want to play with fools who just care about kills.

We want to play battleground

Make kill count less (in non -DM game), then player will stop ruining someone else game for their own pleasure. The dumb player who just care about pure pvp will go back into cyrodill or anything he wants, and the one who actually play battleground the way it should be will be in a team where everyone think the same.

---

Nah, seriously. Battlegrounds are here dor making some diversity in pvp, with fun gamemode and different objective. Sure, you may want small scale pvp, but you also need to follow the rule of the game ! If you don't like any of the battleground gamemode (exept DM) then don't play it !

This won't work just means I'll spend longer time killing everyone in bgs which I'm okay with too.
Every match is team death match