Make less incentive for kill counts in Non-deathmatch BG games?

Kel

marshill88 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and the cowards that go 0 0 0 and just run around doing objectives.

that's fine with me as well...my main point is the way it is now, players who focus on kill counts outside of DM are horrible teammates and ruin the team's chances of winning.

This isn't true exactly.
How do you plan to hold onto the ball if I'm not out there killing all the players rushing at you to get the ball?
Yes, focusing on objectives is the way to win, but if I'm not killing the other players on flags then that's just more people on the opposite team to stand on flags.
That's just more people free to try killing you when you're holding the ball.
You can go after and kill people and still be a good teammate. It's not ruining your chance of winning, it's actually helping your chances of winning.
It's when the entire team has the DM mentally that you're in trouble. But one or two people focused on kills is actually a benefit.

Rugby_hook

PvP does not equal Players killing other players. It means you are going against other players instead of NPCs to achieve a goal. Objectives, and playing to objectives, is absolutely a form of PvP that rewards players for not just build and "skill" but strategy as well. Yes, sometimes it's helpful to "ignore" objectives to focus on kills to allow your team to complete the objectives. That's part of the strategy and it's part of the objective. It can also be a strategy to know how to bait two teams into fighting and then leaving to go work on objectives, even if this means you aren't fighting them directly.

There is no strategy in a land grab bg that can't be countered - if you know someone is running around in a circle to capture flags, habe half the group follow to reconvert the flags and the other half head them off. If you are tied down fighting others while not trying to get flags and let one person capture all the flags, that's good strategy on that players part.

The trouble with disincentiving kills is they already are disincentived in non-dm games. Those players who just focus on killing are already not concerned with their own score, just death tally. Adding more incentive to strategic kills and fights would also be hard to program. Sometimes it's helpful to your team to tie up other teams in a fight, sometimes it's not.

They could change a few things to make kills more helpful in the match though. For example, maybe killing a player on a flag increases the rate it converts to your color or adds points to the team score for each kill at a flag. Killing a person carrying a relic could make it where your team is the only one who can pick up that relic or chaosball before it returns.

Skoomah

Clearly, there is a need and demand to separate death match games from every other game type. Please ZOS... for God’s sake... give us back Deathmatch queue.

PizzaCat82

When I geared, skilled out, and CPed out my pvp char, I did not tailor him to hold a ball while taking damage. I did not tailor him to escape fights and run around stealthed, or run faster than the enemy players. I did not tailor him to do healing or tanking.

I tailored him to do as much damage as possible before people did damage to me. That being said, if the objective is to do something other than kill, I will attempt to do that. i will go after relics. I will try to hold points, or carry that stupid ball.

I will not be very good at it. But in TDM I will be at the top and love it.

Parasaurolophus

Seriously guys... I'm just not an understand... DM is probably the most unbalanced of any mode in BGs and I don't understand how you can ignore it. I will explain
1) Balance. If your team doesn't have a warden and a sorcerer, don't even try.
2) The strength of the teams becomes evident very quickly after the start. After a while, the match turns into a hunt for the weakest team.
3) Points for frags are awarded to the one who just made the last hit, and not to the one who actually destroyed 90% of the player's hp.
4)It often happens that matches go on for all 15 minutes, when the winning team has only about 300 points.

Ninrod86

BrownChicken wrote: »

Seriously guys... I'm just not an understand... DM is probably the most unbalanced of any mode in BGs and I don't understand how you can ignore it. I will explain
1) Balance. If your team doesn't have a warden and a sorcerer, don't even try.
2) The strength of the teams becomes evident very quickly after the start. After a while, the match turns into a hunt for the weakest team.
3) Points for frags are awarded to the one who just made the last hit, and not to the one who actually destroyed 90% of the player's hp.
4)It often happens that matches go on for all 15 minutes, when the winning team has only about 300 points.

You obviously never played deathmatch on a high MMR.

Grimlok_S

marshill88 wrote: »

More often than I wish, in BG matches such as Chaosball or domination, there are people on my team who only care about their kill counts. Of course, this generally causes the entire team to lose. Would it be a good idea to make less incentive for playing like this?

Conversely, enemy teams have difficulty scoring when they are dead.

nukk3r

Jierdanit wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Why are TDM fans are so upset about being outsmarted and outmaneuvered in tactical modes? There are different games with different rulesets and you guys are trying to bruteforce your way through all of them. One of the best feelings you can get in BGs is when your team snatches two relics while other teams fight between their bases.

What exactly about the situation you described is outsmarting?

The only thing that is is instead of actually fighting other players (like you are kind of supposed to in PvP), your team decides to run around the enemies who are fighting each other, to not take part in the PvP part of the BG.

That doesnt show that you outsmarted anyone, but just that those gamemodes are so badly designed that the teams who engage in the least amount of fighting are usually going to win those PvP modes.

nukk3r wrote: »

So you play a team-based mode and sabotage the team effort by following your own agenda even if it means the team will lose? Why don't you just 1vX/smallscale in cyro? The place is full of people willing to just fight with nothing at stake.

First of all, no one is really sabotaging their team, as them fighting the enemies instead of "playing the objective" is not actually hurting the team, but just doesnt gain them points.

And a big reason why people dont just go into Cyro instead might be that they actually want to have more than 3 FPS while fighting

As Sun Tzu once said "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle". A victory is a victory no matter what people who like to fight think about it. The ultimate goal is getting 500 points first, not getting the most frags (unless it's a DM).

Ignoring the objective to follow personal interest is bad sportsmanship. Common good > personal fun. It takes nothing from you to be cooperative. Also people seem to forget that you get more points by killing opponents near the objectives, most of the fights happen nowhere near them. The matches would end faster if the DM crowd actually helped.

Malpheus_Prime

What I perceive OP to feel is inefficient focus on player kills. Because 90% of the time if you have strong players those kills are correlated with constant flag wins or captures...

Obviously if you have teammates who are just fighting 3 minute 1:1's, they are idiots, but if you have a team that's dominating the kills and flags then that's the most fun you can have right?

Definitely agree that the folks just off on the side fighting without actual reason are silly little folk, definitely disagree that it's anything other than noobs mostly, because if you know how to kill you gonna kill. If you don't know how to kill you still gonna try till you get tired of die.

The kills over points could go either way, but in the worst case scenario, it's a 12 minute sample you get to repeat. 12 minutes is the least commitment possible in this game, don't sweat that part too much.

Parasaurolophus

Ninrod86 wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

Seriously guys... I'm just not an understand... DM is probably the most unbalanced of any mode in BGs and I don't understand how you can ignore it. I will explain
1) Balance. If your team doesn't have a warden and a sorcerer, don't even try.
2) The strength of the teams becomes evident very quickly after the start. After a while, the match turns into a hunt for the weakest team.
3) Points for frags are awarded to the one who just made the last hit, and not to the one who actually destroyed 90% of the player's hp.
4)It often happens that matches go on for all 15 minutes, when the winning team has only about 300 points.

You obviously never played deathmatch on a high MMR.

Played. Where am I going wrong?

jle30303

Reverb wrote: »

Fighting and killing is the incentive. People who do BG for actual PVP don’t care about objectives or points, they are there to fight. Since they removed the Death Matcj queue, every game is now a death match, objectives be damned.

I hear so many complaints from friends about a great match they were in with well balanced teams and fun fights, completely ruined by someone who ran all the relics and ruined everyone’s fun by ending the match. From their point of view, it’s selfish to put the objectives ahead of team play.

If you say that's ruining the fun... then why didn't you PAY ATTENTION to that player, watch what he was doing and go and stop him... by killing him!

You still kill people, it's still useful to do so, you just need to PLAN who you kill and where you fight, rather than just thinking "if it moves, shoot it".

spotzhopz

I mean you already dont get points for kills in those modes, what are they gonna do penalize players for killing players in PvP? I kill people while doing objectives, but do i blame people for just wanting to fight in pvp? No. Let people play how they want to play

amm7sb14_ESO

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and that run around doing objectives.

Then queue for a TDM and stay out of objective based BG's?

nukk3r

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and the cowards that go 0 0 0 and just run around doing objectives.

Then queue for a TDM and stay out of objective based BG's?

ZOS removed that feature recently, you can only queue for a random match now. But even when it was possible people were still playing tactical modes as if they were DM.

MurderMostFoul

Split the queue.

Solo:
DM only
Objective only

Group:
DM only
Objective only

Would make many players happy.

spartaxoxo

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have never understood why people don't want to PvP in PvP. I will play the objective to some degree, but I queue for a BG to fight other players and have zero time for my team mates that complain about it. In the same way I have no time for people that complain about getting killed in IC. You are in a PvP zone the over arching theme shouldn't come as a suprise to you.

In fact I think zos should do more to incentives PvP in the games that reward avoiding it. Like domination should have only have 2 flags so you have to fight for them. Otherwise the team that avoids PvP usually wins.

The overarching theme of the game mode shouldn't come as a surprise for you. Refusing to play the objective primarily in an objective based game mode is as selfish as going into IC and expecting people not to kill you. Your stance is pretty hypocritical.

Reverb

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Split the queue.

Solo:
DM only
Objective only

Group:
DM only
Objective only

Would make many players happy.

I agree in theory, but I don’t think the player base is big enough to support this. We already see the same 30 people over and over in high MMR queues. Separate queues would likely cut that in half and result in really long queue times.

DtOG

Bring back TDM.

MurderMostFoul

Reverb wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Split the queue.

Solo:
DM only
Objective only

Group:
DM only
Objective only

Would make many players happy.

I agree in theory, but I don’t think the player base is big enough to support this. We already see the same 30 people over and over in high MMR queues. Separate queues would likely cut that in half and result in really long queue times.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more overall battlegrounds traffic if they implemented this. That would alleviate a little bit of the problem you're referencing. Besides, I'd rather add 5 minutes to my queue time and get death match every game, then save those 5 minutes, but have to play 10 games before seeing a single deathmatch come up.

Selminus

I think most of us would opt for TDM only if given the option, you should do a poll to check. As a healer I have to gauge the DD behavior which improves as your MMR gets higher and follow it. In higher MMR the guys who only came to kill are usually effective at it but still lose focus sometimes and cost us the game.

These issues are much, much worse earlier in your MMR. Thus, opinions on this matter should only really come from the top as the people not there yet may or may not stop this behavior as they grow and see it for what it is.

I would like to see Chaosball disappear in general or have the damage of the ball removed. Especially when people are hiding on ledges with it or jumping off of them after doing so. It's just a lame game mode and every time I see TDM after the load I feel the opposite.

Reverb

Selminus wrote: »

I think most of us would opt for TDM only if given the option, you should do a poll to check. As a healer I have to gauge the DD behavior which improves as your MMR gets higher and follow it. In higher MMR the guys who only came to kill are usually effective at it but still lose focus sometimes and cost us the game.

These issues are much, much worse earlier in your MMR. Thus, opinions on this matter should only really come from the top as the people not there yet may or may not stop this behavior as they grow and see it for what it is.

I would like to see Chaosball disappear in general or have the damage of the ball removed. Especially when people are hiding on ledges with it or jumping off of them after doing so. It's just a lame game mode and every time I see TDM after the load I feel the opposite.

Chaosball is always won by whoever’s unkillable at warden or Necro gets the ball first. And every map has a safe spot you can drop into and just camp with the ball. Those are the least fun matches. Not good for fighting or for mechanics.

Brrrofski

nukk3r wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and the cowards that go 0 0 0 and just run around doing objectives.

Why are TDM fans are so upset about being outsmarted and outmaneuvered in tactical modes? There are different games with different rulesets and you guys are trying to bruteforce your way through all of them. One of the best feelings you can get in BGs is when your team snatches two relics while other teams fight between their bases.

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't care about winning or losing a BG.

I care about fighting people.

So you play a team-based mode and sabotage the team effort by following your own agenda even if it means the team will lose? Why don't you just 1vX/smallscale in cyro? The place is full of people willing to just fight with nothing at stake.

It's not tactical though. It's run from a to b to c while ignoring fighting going around you. The amount of people I see just spamming rapids to get to a flag and don't even turn around when you attack. Just try to run away.

And Cyrodiil is just large scale domination. You either join a zerg and flip empty keeps or you try to fight people doing that who just move as group and won't fight you unless they all do.

And it's hardly sabotage. How do you think you get to run around the BG with your little flag/ball unnopposed? By people killing the other teams.

I just want to go into a BG where I have a good fight. Objective modes are always people running around to and from flags and putting up no fight.

Brrrofski

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and the cowards that go 0 0 0 and just run around doing objectives.

Then queue for a TDM and stay out of objective based BG's?

Thanks dude. Don't know why I never thought about it...

If you're going to come into a thread and try to make a valid point, at least make sure you're up to date with what you're talking about next time.

BaiterOfZergs

Pvp doesn’t equate to player killing player, there’s many forms of pvp.

Besides that you can simply get kills by playing the objective in most matches. It’s really not that hard to get kills and play the objective.

nukk3r

Brrrofski wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No thanks.

Instead, make kills count towards score.

Most of us don't want to play chaosball, or domination or whatever.

We want to play TDM.

The other modes all encourage avoiding PvP. They're dumb.

Make kills count towards score, then both players can contribute. The ones that like fighting, and the cowards that go 0 0 0 and just run around doing objectives.

Why are TDM fans are so upset about being outsmarted and outmaneuvered in tactical modes? There are different games with different rulesets and you guys are trying to bruteforce your way through all of them. One of the best feelings you can get in BGs is when your team snatches two relics while other teams fight between their bases.

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't care about winning or losing a BG.

I care about fighting people.

So you play a team-based mode and sabotage the team effort by following your own agenda even if it means the team will lose? Why don't you just 1vX/smallscale in cyro? The place is full of people willing to just fight with nothing at stake.

It's not tactical though. It's run from a to b to c while ignoring fighting going around you. The amount of people I see just spamming rapids to get to a flag and don't even turn around when you attack. Just try to run away.

And Cyrodiil is just large scale domination. You either join a zerg and flip empty keeps or you try to fight people doing that who just move as group and won't fight you unless they all do.

And it's hardly sabotage. How do you think you get to run around the BG with your little flag/ball unnopposed? By people killing the other teams.

I just want to go into a BG where I have a good fight. Objective modes are always people running around to and from flags and putting up no fight.

I play two classes in BGs: stamblade and magsorc. When I play stamblade I avoid fights as much as possible in flag games. I'm more useful when I'm unseen and swift and not trying to fight a stamden. In land grab games I'll run when I'm outnumbered, no point in dying when there are other flags to flip with no one around. Being a hero doesn't score points. How is this not tactical?

I mean I get your frustration, I don't like deathmatch as much as you don't like flag/land games, but you have to play by the rules. Stick to the objective, fight when necessary.

Skoomah

It’s funny how the crowd that likes to play non-death match game modes never support us when we beg for a death match. Why are we forced to play game modes we despise? I would like my freedom to choose back please.

relentless_turnip

spartaxoxo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have never understood why people don't want to PvP in PvP. I will play the objective to some degree, but I queue for a BG to fight other players and have zero time for my team mates that complain about it. In the same way I have no time for people that complain about getting killed in IC. You are in a PvP zone the over arching theme shouldn't come as a suprise to you.

In fact I think zos should do more to incentives PvP in the games that reward avoiding it. Like domination should have only have 2 flags so you have to fight for them. Otherwise the team that avoids PvP usually wins.

The overarching theme of the game mode shouldn't come as a surprise for you. Refusing to play the objective primarily in an objective based game mode is as selfish as going into IC and expecting people not to kill you. Your stance is pretty hypocritical.

The overarching theme in any PvP zone is to PvP. I.e. fight players... How is it hypocritical? It isn't me contradicting myself in either circumstance. I simply said the notion is equivalent to... I haven't embodied a standard in which I don't agree with which would be hypocritical... Your accusation seems uncalled for and nonsensical.

You could certainly disagree with my opinion, that is totally fine. To try and summarise my opinion with an irrelevant insult doesn't perpetuate a healthy discussion where we can both disagree and still discuss the issue.

To me it is selfish for anyone to expect anyone to conform to your version of a good time. You enter a PvP zone with strangers, your expectations should solely be on having player versus player interactions. Sometimes that involves chasing the flag/ball and sometimes it is just good fights. I don't agree with people trying to police others on their own individual expectations and negating the idea that they came in with their own. I also don't think it should be a suprise that many join a PvP zone to fight players. I am not a hypocrit for believing this either😂 again I would be if I did the thing I said I didn't agree with.

If people want to join BG's for the objective totally fine, I will not be creating a thread saying they shouldn't. If people want to join IC just to PVE also totally fine, I again don't believe this is thread worthy... In both circumstances those people shouldn't be upset or try to police those people for wanting to PvP in a PvP zone.

jle30303

PVP does not just mean "fighting" as in weapons and killing. It's all other forms of direct competition between players.

What the non-Deathmatch games do, is force you to use strategy for WHO and WHERE you kill people. So, instead of getting involved in a grand melee in the middle, keep an eye out on the status of the other objectives too.

If you see someone else seizing one of your flags, in a flag game (Domination or Crazy King), go and defend it... you will have to fight another player to drive them off. If you see an untenanted flag, go claim it, and then someone else will come and fight *you* for it - and if they don't, they're either stupid or cowardly.

If someone from the wrong team has the Chaosball... go kill them. Then try and get over its handicaps to kill anyone who tries to take it off you.

If you're playing Capture the Relic... then either go capture enemy relics and kill the people trying to defend them, or if yours gets captured, go kill the person who has it, and take it back.

Plenty of room for fighting and killing other players in all the other PVP modes. If a team can win Crazy King without scoring a single kill between the four of them - and I've been on a team that did just that - then you are obviously not paying enough attention to *who* you fight and *where*. If Reds are busy fighting Purples in the centre, with no flags, while Greens hold flags on the outside, Greens will win, so why were you Purples not chasing and killing Greens - and holding flags against Green and Red attacks - instead of fighting Reds at a place where there are no flags?

PVP has a lot more subtlety than just "if it moves, shoot it".

jaws343

If I'm off to the side fighting 3 enemy players in a relic or flag match that's three players you don't need to worry about when trying to take their relic. It isn't players who are scoring kills fault that their team isn't capable of capitalizing on that advantage to take relics or capture flags.

jle30303

jaws343 wrote: »

If I'm off to the side fighting 3 enemy players in a relic or flag match that's three players you don't need to worry about when trying to take their relic. It isn't players who are scoring kills fault that their team isn't capable of capitalizing on that advantage to take relics or capture flags.

...yes it is, if you're killing the wrong players, or killing players in the wrong places. If 4 Reds engage 4 Purples in a protracted match and aren't even doing it near the flags, you're doing nothing to stop the Greens getting the flags. There's three factions in each BG, not two... so make sure that your player killing is actually helping your team instead of hindering it by concentrating on the wrong enemy and the wrong place. That *is* your fault for not being where your team actually needs you to be.