Is it fair ZOS don't allow us to use our sets?

UntouchableHunter

After years and years

Farming the right sets
Right traits
Making them gold
Buying dlcs and chapters to get new sets
Farming new sets
Crafting new sets
Spending transmutes
Paying a plus account to have more space for more sets
And more and more...

Do you really think

Thraben

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

AuraNebula

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

Thraben

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

This is exactly what I said, multiple times. I also feel that there should be a separate campaign.

But arguing with "fairness" with a biased poll is probably not the right way.

Of course, it feels unfair. But technically, it isn't. It is even arguably the only fair solution - but this doesn't make it a good solution.

The only ones who could really say it is unfair are not those who farmed certain sets, but those who play classes that are badly balanced, like MagBlades. Farming sets and then throwing them away is just the way MMOs work.

Soul_Demon

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Seems your mind is already made up, but if you take a quick look at the EULA you will see they say themselves you will "have access to use the game" and even a basic interpretation of that includes the gear sold as part of the DLC's and Chapters people purchased. A strong argument could be made they are violating their own EULA by removing "access" to parts of the game, ie the gear use. Even stronger by the volume of how many sets that are unusable.......Just a quick FYI you may find interesting.

Thraben

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

Soul_Demon wrote: »

A strong argument could be made they are violating their own EULA by removing "access" to parts of the game, ie the gear use. Even stronger by the volume of how many sets that are unusable.......Just a quick FYI you may find interesting.

Using the game is not the same as using the gear. DLCs are not advertised with certain gear rewards for a reason. Otherwise you could feel entitled to get the gear without even farming, like you get the special mounts.

Truth to be told, Kai Schober just said that there WILL be different campaigns for each (thank god), but it takes time to implement.

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

Im Moment gibt es keine Einstellung, die uns erlaubt, Proc-Sets für bestimmte Kampagnen individuell zu erlauben oder zu verbieten oder ggf. nur bestimmte Sets zuzulassen. Die Zulassung ist kampagnenübergreifend.
Bis U31 wird Code entwickelt, der dies für spezifische Kampagnen zulässt.

"At the moment there is no way for us to enable or disable Proc- sets for certain campaigns individually, or to permit only some Proc- sets. [...] A code for that is under development until U31."


With that knowledge, we can assume that there were only 2 options, both equally just: Disable all or enable all, until U31 offers a better solution. They decided for the first one. You could make arguments why one of the 2 alternatives would have been fairer than the other, but this would ultimately be pointless.

Dr_Ganknstein

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Just cancel your subscription until U31. That might make them come up with a solution faster. Thats what I'm doing. No more of my money will be spent on this game until then and trust me, I've spent a lot.

Gilvoth

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

this isnt a democracy, we are not given a choice in the T.O.S.
but, they could have atleast been nice and given us new sets before forcing this on us.

Dr_Ganknstein

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Gilvoth wrote: »

this isnt a democracy, we are not given a choice in the T.O.S.
but, they could have atleast been nice and given us new sets before forcing this on us.

They should have told us before putting Blackwood on pre-order. Thats shady business.

FlaviusPK

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Instead of reading eulas and other official stuff just listen to common sense. We all know this is complete garbage and developers team has some other plans than working for what we've paid them.

Gilvoth

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this isnt a democracy, we are not given a choice in the T.O.S.
but, they could have atleast been nice and given us new sets before forcing this on us.

They should have told us before putting Blackwood on pre-order. Thats shady business.

yes, your right.
it was for sure a low blow.
hey,btw, i love your videos.

Gilvoth

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

double post

Jaraal

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

No, it's not fair to trick people into spending their hard earned cash and hundreds of hours grinding to acquire gear, only to tell you it's unusable for half a year. Nor is it fair to tell people they will be testing performance, when the end result of the test has nothing to do with performance.

They should have told us ahead of time that they wanted to see if we would accept having our gear taken away from us for half a year. Then we would have been able to boycott the test.

FlaviusPK

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Jaraal wrote: »

No, it's not fair to trick people into spending their hard earned cash and hundreds of hours grinding to acquire gear, only to tell you it's unusable for half a year. Nor is it fair to tell people they will be testing performance, when the end result of the test has nothing to do with performance.

They should have told us ahead of time that they wanted to see if we would accept having our gear taken away from us for half a year. Then we would have been able to boycott the test.

This is what I've done for 3 weeks and was preparing for my long awaited guild raid in Cyro just to get this news.

Soul_Demon

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Thraben wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

A strong argument could be made they are violating their own EULA by removing "access" to parts of the game, ie the gear use. Even stronger by the volume of how many sets that are unusable.......Just a quick FYI you may find interesting.

Using the game is not the same as using the gear. DLCs are not advertised with certain gear rewards for a reason. Otherwise you could feel entitled to get the gear without even farming, like you get the special mounts.

Truth to be told, Kai Schober just said that there WILL be different campaigns for each (thank god), but it takes time to implement.

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

Im Moment gibt es keine Einstellung, die uns erlaubt, Proc-Sets für bestimmte Kampagnen individuell zu erlauben oder zu verbieten oder ggf. nur bestimmte Sets zuzulassen. Die Zulassung ist kampagnenübergreifend.
Bis U31 wird Code entwickelt, der dies für spezifische Kampagnen zulässt.

"At the moment there is no way for us to enable or disable Proc- sets for certain campaigns individually, or to permit only some Proc- sets. [...] A code for that is under development until U31."


With that knowledge, we can assume that there were only 2 options, both equally just: Disable all or enable all, until U31 offers a better solution. They decided for the first one. You could make arguments why one of the 2 alternatives would have been fairer than the other, but this would ultimately be pointless.

DLC's are indeed advertised with the 'gear rewards' listed as part of the reasoning to have the new DLC's. Not sure what advertisement you looked at, but you must have missed it. The entire last Chapter focused around introducing new systems and gear.

Can you specify the advertisements you say were not listing the new gear they gave to players for purchase- for instance for Greymoor was about the entirely new antiquities system, rework of vamp and werewolf and most notably----and advertised the new mythic items. That is but one example of the gear being only accessible via the chapter purchase. What ones are you speaking of that did not mention the new gear they would allow you to use?

VaranisArano

I'm not thrilled to lose access to the sets I have, but that's more or less how I feel whenever ZOS nerfs my builds. Not thrilled.

I do find it a little interesting that somehow Marketing was convinced to give up the "new gear" selling point for DLC and Chapters for PVP players, since most of the Flames of Ambition sets will be disabled in Cyrodiil. I'll be very curious to see if ZOS starts releasing new sets that can be used in Cyrodiil with the new Chapter in order to hook back in Cyrodiil PVPers who're desperate for more variety. Otherwise, they seem to be banking that the Devs really will succeed in recoding some of those odd "proc" sets by Q3.

Jaraal

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not thrilled to lose access to the sets I have, but that's more or less how I feel whenever ZOS nerfs my builds. Not thrilled.

I do find it a little interesting that somehow Marketing was convinced to give up the "new gear" selling point for DLC and Chapters for PVP players, since most of the Flames of Ambition sets will be disabled in Cyrodiil. I'll be very curious to see if ZOS starts releasing new sets that can be used in Cyrodiil with the new Chapter in order to hook back in Cyrodiil PVPers who're desperate for more variety. Otherwise, they seem to be banking that the Devs really will succeed in recoding some of those odd "proc" sets by Q3.

But they've already reworked the entire set library, in the majority of cases increasing the damage of the procs.

It was theorized at the time that ZOS wanted battles over quicky, so that people would be spending more time in the recap screen or riding around from battle to battle, rather than blobbed up in long, drawn out faction stacks like the no proc scenario has exacerbated. And the fact that performance is worse under the current conditions seems to back that up.

And I absolutely agree about the disincentivisation to purchase the new DLCs. New gear is one of the, if not the major selling point of new content. How many people bought Markarth so they could grind for Vateshran weapons? And yet that entire motivation has been unceremoniously tossed out the window.

I would have liked to have sat in on those marketing meetings. I'm sure they were quite interesting.

Araneae6537

Polls should have unbiased response selections. Even just the basic yes, no, other would be an improvement.

As a side note, if you’re paying for ESO+ you get the DLCs included. 🤔

As to the poll itself, it’s more fair than crippling one role/ability, as when skills which are supposed to heal allies are limited to groups, next of kin, whatever.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of what direction ZOS is working toward for PvP. Will more sets be made non-proc or can we distinguish sets in a different way if it makes no difference to performance? For instance, a campaign without direct proc damage would be ideal, in my opinion. Or just giving players the option, a CP proc campaign and no-CP no-proc campaign.

Jayserix

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

Not only the wording is poor but the approach is bad as well.

Is it fair ? It depends.
Can they do whatever they want ? Of course it's their game.
Can they give us a campaign with everything enabled ? Of course they can.

What's the purpose of creating all of these polls when we know the same 300 forum aficionados will respond to all of them. This won't give any pertinent information to them.

The only useful poll might be one in game, prime time when everybody is in Cyro lagging

VoidCommander

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it unnecessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a separate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

It is unfair because I can't swap my main's class to a sorcerer so I have a prayer at getting kills. At least with the proc meta I had flexibility to adjust my build so I could be competitive.

UntouchableHunter

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Jayserix wrote: »

Not only the wording is poor but the approach is bad as well.

Is it fair ? It depends.
Can they do whatever they want ? Of course it's their game.
Can they give us a campaign with everything enabled ? Of course they can.

What's the purpose of creating all of these polls when we know the same 300 forum aficionados will respond to all of them. This won't give any pertinent information to them.

The only useful poll might be one in game, prime time when everybody is in Cyro lagging

It is completely and absolutely unfair.

Unfair it is not ilegal.

Yes they can do whatever they want yes, but is it fair? No.

And in the last friday before they launch the update they just ban hundreds of sets include the upcoming sets????

No my friend this is really not fair.

And maybe, if we go trough all the paperwork, maybe even legal could this be.

But I'm 100% sure that it is not fair.

Jayserix

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

Not only the wording is poor but the approach is bad as well.

Is it fair ? It depends.
Can they do whatever they want ? Of course it's their game.
Can they give us a campaign with everything enabled ? Of course they can.

What's the purpose of creating all of these polls when we know the same 300 forum aficionados will respond to all of them. This won't give any pertinent information to them.

The only useful poll might be one in game, prime time when everybody is in Cyro lagging

It is completely and absolutely unfair.

Unfair it is not ilegal.

Yes they can do whatever they want yes, but is it fair? No.

And in the last friday before they launch the update they just ban hundreds of sets include the upcoming sets????

No my friend this is really not fair.

And maybe, if we go trough all the paperwork, maybe even legal could this be.

But I'm 100% sure that it is not fair.

The problem here is that you're using a self made definition for fair. Like Thraben said it's 100% fair.
You can disagree with the approach, you can conclude that the decision is detrimental to the game but it's fair.

UntouchableHunter

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Jayserix wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

Not only the wording is poor but the approach is bad as well.

Is it fair ? It depends.
Can they do whatever they want ? Of course it's their game.
Can they give us a campaign with everything enabled ? Of course they can.

What's the purpose of creating all of these polls when we know the same 300 forum aficionados will respond to all of them. This won't give any pertinent information to them.

The only useful poll might be one in game, prime time when everybody is in Cyro lagging

It is completely and absolutely unfair.

Unfair it is not ilegal.

Yes they can do whatever they want yes, but is it fair? No.

And in the last friday before they launch the update they just ban hundreds of sets include the upcoming sets????

No my friend this is really not fair.

And maybe, if we go trough all the paperwork, maybe even legal could this be.

But I'm 100% sure that it is not fair.

The problem here is that you're using a self made definition for fair. Like Thraben said it's 100% fair.
You can disagree with the approach, you can conclude that the decision is detrimental to the game but it's fair.

Obviously it is my self made definition for fair.
And you and Thraden have your on.
If for you guys it is fair in your perception of the situation, it is fine. I respect that. I just don't agree and I will not push you to agree with me. You have your on experience to define something fair or unfair.

OtarTheMad

If at the end of all of this Cyro is fixed or at least more playable than I am game. I will sign up even if the rules in Cyro were no armor on at all and light attack everyone. You guys make it seem this is forever... like lol... chill.

Goregrinder

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

I think adding a hard counter to procs would be a better answer, rather than separate the player base even more.

Dr_Ganknstein

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Goregrinder wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

I think adding a hard counter to procs would be a better answer, rather than separate the player base even more.

What's a hard counter as apposed to just a counter? Like for me if I get proced by venomous smite I'll cloak and heal until it goes away because I don't have purge. Caluurions is pretty crazy and I can get killed fast by that so I just have to be more watchful. If I'm going against a block necro I need to catch them in an open area where I have room to hit and keep moving. I'd consider all these as normal counters. Or maybe they can make snakeblood negate proc damage and then they won't have to nerf proc damage so pve wouldn't be effected.

Seraphayel

Yes. They can do everything that they want and I will accept

If you like it or not, they can do whatever they want to their game as long as they keep it running, e.g. offering us the service we’ve paid for. We didn’t pay to play with proc sets enabled.

UntouchableHunter

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

I think adding a hard counter to procs would be a better answer, rather than separate the player base even more.

What's a hard counter as apposed to just a counter? Like for me if I get proced by venomous smite I'll cloak and heal until it goes away because I don't have purge. Caluurions is pretty crazy and I can get killed fast by that so I just have to be more watchful. If I'm going against a block necro I need to catch them in an open area where I have room to hit and keep moving. I'd consider all these as normal counters. Or maybe they can make snakeblood negate proc damage and then they won't have to nerf proc damage so pve wouldn't be effected.

ALL the procs are so obvious how to counter, but some people just wana hit dswing and Executioner and doesn't matter if they stay in the red circle the enemy will heal, they just wana still smashing the buttons. They call their self "skilled" players.

AuraNebula

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Thraben wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

This is exactly what I said, multiple times. I also feel that there should be a separate campaign.

But arguing with "fairness" with a biased poll is probably not the right way.

Of course, it feels unfair. But technically, it isn't. It is even arguably the only fair solution - but this doesn't make it a good solution.

The only ones who could really say it is unfair are not those who farmed certain sets, but those who play classes that are badly balanced, like MagBlades. Farming sets and then throwing them away is just the way MMOs work.

Yeah I understand farming when a new patch drops and having to get new gear, but taking away 98% of the games gear was too extreme.

Goregrinder

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

It is fair, if the rule applies to everyone, by definition.

It is unfair in a way that it uneccessarily forces people to abide who could as well fight in their own Proc campaign.

We can speak about "pure" justice versus a more utilitarian approach.

Their decision is JUST, but is probably not GOOD. That's a difference.

By the way, IF you create a biased poll, please don't give accidentally an alternative answer that is true. It IS their game, after all, even if I personally would have preferred a seperate No-Proc campaign for those who want it.

Just give us the separation. I don't want to play the way you are suggesting pvp should be. So don't make me conform to your idea of fun.

I think adding a hard counter to procs would be a better answer, rather than separate the player base even more.

What's a hard counter as apposed to just a counter? Like for me if I get proced by venomous smite I'll cloak and heal until it goes away because I don't have purge. Caluurions is pretty crazy and I can get killed fast by that so I just have to be more watchful. If I'm going against a block necro I need to catch them in an open area where I have room to hit and keep moving. I'd consider all these as normal counters. Or maybe they can make snakeblood negate proc damage and then they won't have to nerf proc damage so pve wouldn't be effected.

A "soft" counter to Zaan would be to dodge roll or LOS the tether. The end result is that you did avoid the damage from the proc, but you could not actually stop the proc or reduce the proc's effectiveness. Just like a DoT can counter stealth or sneak by pulling someone out of it, but it doesn't actually stop or limit stealth itself. Those would be "soft" counters. Yes they "counter" in the sense that you can avoid what they do, but they don't stop or limit those interactions.

A "hard" counter would be something like defile, or major fracture. Defile reduces all healing on a player by X=amount. It flat out stops a portion of healing right out of the gate. Major Fracture flat out removes x=resistances a player has. If a player has 22k, and gets hit with major fracture, 5k just get temporarily removed with the snap of a finger. If someone stealths and you pot a detect pot or ability, you can physically see them if you're within range...you literally just flat out counter their stealth. If you get hit with a dot or many dots, can you purge it, you literally just remove those dots instantly...completely countering them.

Right now there is no hard counter to procs, only soft counters. You can LOS or dodge or block the damage from procs, and defile can limit some of the healing from procs, but those are soft counters. There is nothing in game that says "Target cannot benefit from procc'ed abilities for 4 seconds..." or "Reduces effectiveness of target player's proc abilities by 30% for 8 seconds...".

We have nothing that hard counters it other than "Well...just roll around and don't get hit by their procs..." which is not a hard counter, it's a soft counter. Players can build against high health, shield stacking, stealth, high recovery, fire/poison vulnerability, high penetration, dots, snares, speed enhancements, etc. There is a direct counter to everything that players can choose to put in their builds that will counter someone else's play style...everything except procs. There is nothing to hard counter procs.

DoccEff

No. They could just give us a no proc set campaign

Just give us a procset-enabled campaign and everyone can play the way they want to.