Racial Passives and the Forgotten Redguard
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michaelarryn
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It used to be that Redguard was the go to stamina pick years ago, but ZoS (rightfully so) gave other passives to other races to allow them to compete and now, in many cases, be a way better choice in many scenarios. This patch further brings this point home as now orc is gaining the versatility to be apart of Mag builds with its recent changes in passives, Khajiit already had Phys and Spell crit and many other races are also becoming more well rounded.
Personally, if we stick to lore, I would like to see that Redguard stick to being a stam only choice, however there should be more on his plate that what is currently offered? More wep dmg? Dodge roll reduction? More physical pen? Idk, but there have been day one's that have been playing Redguard that have lived through their golden era and now seem to be forgotten in all the recent racial balancing.
Personally, if we stick to lore, I would like to see that Redguard stick to being a stam only choice, however there should be more on his plate that what is currently offered? More wep dmg? Dodge roll reduction? More physical pen? Idk, but there have been day one's that have been playing Redguard that have lived through their golden era and now seem to be forgotten in all the recent racial balancing.
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭I don't see why they can't get weapon cost reduction and %weapon damage done. That or just give the 3k stam to compensateEdited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on 11 February 2021 16:473 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »I don't see why they can't get weapon cost reduction and %weapon damage done. That or just give the 3k stam to compensate
I don’t think it would help tbh. Nobody uses weapon skills enough to make use of such a niche passive. Redguard was good back when Poison Injection and Rending Slashes were key parts of any single target DPS rotation. When stam DK and stam Sorc did not have a class spammable and relied on weapon skills. When Steel Tornado was the best AoE skill in the game, if you could sustain it. Without these things, Redguard just has a dead passive.
They need a damage passive, but it needs to work on more than just weapon skills (unless it was actually powerful enough to make weapon skills worth slotting, that could be interesting).Edited by WrathOfInnos on 11 February 2021 17:204 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
I don’t think it would help tbh. Nobody uses weapon skills enough to make use of such a niche passive. Redguard was good back when Poison Injection and Rending Slashes were key parts of any single target DPS rotation. When stam DK and stam Sorc did not have a class spammable and relied on weapon skills. When Steel Tornado was the best AoE skill in the game, if you could sustain it. Without these things, Redguard just has a dead passive.
They need a damage passive, but it needs to work on more than just weapon skills (unless it was actually powerful enough to make weapon skills worth slotting, that could be interesting).
if they had a health bonus or even health regen they would be well suited for tanks.even the smallest flicker of light can overcome any amount of darkness
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of ESO REVAMP Ideas0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
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if they had a health bonus or even health regen they would be well suited for tanks.
"Well-suited" is a bit of an exaggeration. Tanks are mostly after sustain boni or boni to ultimate generation or ultimate cost reduction. If Redguards got health, then they'd be equal to Argonians at best. Nords with their ultimate generation and Imperials with their ultimate, block, dodgeroll and breakfree cost reduction are still going to be preferred.
They would be quite a bit stronger in PvP though, although they were never as bad in PvP as they are in PvE to begin with.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KurtAngle2 wrote: »Just make the 8% passive apply to every Stam skill instead of Weapon ones.
Done
It should be 8-9% on all stamina skills, but I’m not sure that would be enough of a buff to make them a good choice for DPS. Tbh Breton should also be 8-9%% cost reduction, since all cost reductions were nerfed when they were changed from additive to multiplicative (most sources of cost reduction were buffed by 20-25% to compensate for the change, but Redguard and Breton racials were forgotten).2 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
It should be 8-9% on all stamina skills, but I’m not sure that would be enough of a buff to make them a good choice for DPS. Tbh Breton should also be 8-9%% cost reduction, since all cost reductions were nerfed when they were changed from additive to multiplicative (most sources of cost reduction were buffed by 20-25% to compensate for the change, but Redguard and Breton racials were forgotten).
I always wondered why they didn't get updated... Seducer went from 8% to 10%, but Breton stayed at 7%.
Playing since beta...3 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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I always wondered why they didn't get updated... Seducer went from 8% to 10%, but Breton stayed at 7%.
Isn't that why Breton went from 3% to 7% in the first place?0 -
Leogon✭✭✭✭✭
✭If we stick to the lore then Nords should also be one of the top stam races since they're known for their prowess as warriors but they're at the bottom in ESO. ESO is not canon, it's a spinoff. The singleplayer games are canon.4 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭If we stick to the lore then Nords should also be one of the top stam races since they're known for their prowess as warriors but they're at the bottom in ESO. ESO is not canon, it's a spinoff. The singleplayer games are canon.
Wood elves supposed to be the slowest race but they are the fastest. Altmer supposed to be fastest. Old games calculated run speed with height.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
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I always wondered why they didn't get updated... Seducer went from 8% to 10%, but Breton stayed at 7%.
Right, and then later another crafted set Magnus Gift (which is pretty much the same thing as Seducer and both were 8% for years) got its 5-piece increased to 15% chance to negate Magicka cost. It’s not even overpowered, and sees almost no use despite having its 5pc nearly doubled. I really don’t understand what ZOS is thinking with power budget and balancing some of these things, but it’s obvious that 7% cost reduction isn’t what it used to be.
Isn't that why Breton went from 3% to 7% in the first place?
No, Breton went from 3% to 7% way back in Wrathstone and was nicely balanced with Altmer and Dunmer for a while. Then in Scalebreaker changes in the way cost reduction was calculated indirectly nerfed them, and no corrective adjustments were made.
Anyway, getting a little too far off topic here, but these same changes hurt Redguard as well, I’m just more familiar with the effects on Breton since I have several of those and only one Redguard stamDK that I rarely play.1 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭If we stick to the lore then Nords should also be one of the top stam races since they're known for their prowess as warriors but they're at the bottom in ESO. ESO is not canon, it's a spinoff. The singleplayer games are canon.
The Three Banner war is canon.
Even in the main single player games, ONLY canon is the stories of the guilds and main quest. Everything else your character does for anyone else is the same as this game, filler around the main canon story.3 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If we stick to the lore then Nords should also be one of the top stam races since they're known for their prowess as warriors but they're at the bottom in ESO. ESO is not canon, it's a spinoff. The singleplayer games are canon.
You are right on the Nord part, although ESO is absolutely canon - as far as anything is canon in TES.
Not Nords, but Orcs should be the tankiest race, but in ESO they are the fastest and hardest hitting. Now they also gain incredible levels of self-healing and spell damage. They are so stacked it's insane.Luckylancer wrote: »
Wood elves supposed to be the slowest race but they are the fastest. Altmer supposed to be fastest. Old games calculated run speed with height.
Bosmer, Dunmer and Argonians still had the highest starting Speed, though. Even with height being a factor in the walking speed calculation, it should be clear that Orcs should not be the fastest race. They always had the lowest Speed stat (together with male Bretons and female Imperials).Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Argonians literally designed to be good mages, great thieves, and assassins/nightblades in all the past TES games. What they did to them on here, to me at least is just trash. They aren't even considered good in the class they were considered the best at. Healer and Tank, gtfo they were barely known as healers and never known as tanks. It's as if ZoS didn't care and put barely any effort into them. Honestly it kind of shows since they have no clue at all with their passives. If you don't believe me, look up Argonians from Arena to Oblivion. I don't count Skyrim that was so dumbed down with things removed ,the passives were weird. I honestly can't take this game seriously with the choices they made. Pact doesn't need two tanks and Dunmer shouldn't be the end all be all dps in the Pact, that's bs and some serious racial bias.2 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭i think they could have done much better things with racials, but you guys sometimes miss the point.
a race having a character thats specializes in something, lets say nords and some mages in nords being one of the best mages in tamriel, doesnt mean those races need a specific racial for it. think of it like genetics.Argonians literally designed to be good mages, great thieves, and assassins/nightblades in all the past TES games. What they did to them on here, to me at least is just trash. They aren't even considered good in the class they were considered the best at. Healer and Tank, gtfo they were barely known as healers and never known as tanks. It's as if ZoS didn't care and put barely any effort into them. Honestly it kind of shows since they have no clue at all with their passives. If you don't believe me, look up Argonians from Arena to Oblivion. I don't count Skyrim that was so dumbed down with things removed ,the passives were weird. I honestly can't take this game seriously with the choices they made. Pact doesn't need two tanks and Dunmer shouldn't be the end all be all dps in the Pact, that's bs and some serious racial bias.
pesky argonians are no match for us dunmers. know your place >:(1 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭Argonians literally designed to be good mages, great thieves, and assassins/nightblades in all the past TES games. What they did to them on here, to me at least is just trash. They aren't even considered good in the class they were considered the best at. Healer and Tank, gtfo they were barely known as healers and never known as tanks. It's as if ZoS didn't care and put barely any effort into them. Honestly it kind of shows since they have no clue at all with their passives. If you don't believe me, look up Argonians from Arena to Oblivion. I don't count Skyrim that was so dumbed down with things removed ,the passives were weird. I honestly can't take this game seriously with the choices they made. Pact doesn't need two tanks and Dunmer shouldn't be the end all be all dps in the Pact, that's bs and some serious racial bias.
I have no idea what are you talking about. Sure , argonians can be "good" mages , good "thieves" ,etc. But not best. Just look at starting bonuses in Morrowind for example - we have mix of physical skills and small bonuses to alchemy and magical skills.
As for healers and tanks - that players' decision and their min-max approach. Dont blame it on ZOS.
Edited by Massacre_Wurm on 12 February 2021 17:470 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »
I have no idea what are you talking about. Sure , argonians can be "good" mages , good "thieves" ,etc. But not best. Just look at starting bonuses in Morrowind for example - we have mix of physical skills and small bonuses to alchemy and magical skills.
As for healers and tanks - that players' decision and their min-max approach. Dont blame it on ZOS.
Are you sure about that?
Notice down in Ideal Character "Male Argonians can make the finest Nightblades."
Also yeah the low endurance in every TES game so tanky right, you know thats max hp. See it's also stam/fatigue regen but they have the alchemy bonus to use potions to make up for it. That's why we have the potion passive on here. Also notice the bonuses in illusion and mysticism. I have to go but off the top of my head, Illusion chameleon and invisibility, mysticism absorb health, detect animal, detect key, telekinesis. Those all point to being stealthy and the hp absorb is a very Nightblade thing.Edited by Koronach on 12 February 2021 18:362 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭
Are you sure about that? Notice down in Ideal Character "Male Argonians can make the finest Nightblades."
Also yeah the low endurance in every TES game so tanky right, you know thats max hp. See it's also stam/fatigue regen but they have the alchemy bonus to use potions to make up for it. That's why we have the potion passive on here.
Also notice down " well -rounded character" ( i.e hybrid ") , "decent thieves, rogues and assassins." , etc.
So yes , i am pretty sure.
ALso dunmers have better stats for nighblade class in Morrowind ( 10 pts in short blades and destruction ).0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Actually if you read about Dunmer it says they are the well rounded ones. It says they aren't devoted to anything and make a well rounded starter race. Also destruction is more for mage, I will agree with shortblade. My point wasn't that Argonians should be the best, I get Dunmer are good at Nightblade to, I knew that. Argonians should be good Nightblades with good dps. Not healers and tanks, they totally disregarded everything about Argonian except the 50 int and the 15 restoration bonus in Skyrim. Why does the Pact need two good tank races when Nords are already great tanks in lore and in ESO? The Pact only has one real good dps race. That makes absolutely no sense, and makes them seem totally biased.1
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Koronach✭✭✭✭✭i think they could have done much better things with racials, but you guys sometimes miss the point.
a race having a character thats specializes in something, lets say nords and some mages in nords being one of the best mages in tamriel, doesnt mean those races need a specific racial for it. think of it like genetics.
pesky argonians are no match for us dunmers. know your place >:(
I'm not missing the point, the point is they just effortlessly threw Argonians into roles they were least or never known for. They literally based their roles off the preist/shamans and warriors of the Mesoamerican civilizations they based their culture on. The problem is that's real life and not TES. You shouldn't base a game race off something that has nothing to do with the game or what they have been over the entire series. Not to mention Tank and Healer are both support, the two least liked and least played roles in every MMORPG in existence. I'm sorry but most people like to DPS. When your race is known for that over all the games and they go and put them as something they were hardly known for or not known for, thats not cool. It feels lazy and indeed biased like they didn't care. I mean Nords already better tanks, Dunmer can heal, magdps, and stamdps, argonians Healer and Tank, recycled roles from the other two races in the Pact and not even one roles they were well known for and good at. That indeed seems lazy and shows that they really didn't seem to care.Edited by Koronach on 12 February 2021 20:590 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭
I'm not missing the point, the point is they just effortlessly threw Argonians into roles they were least or never known for. They literally based their roles off the preist/shamans and warriors of the Mesoamerican civilizations they based their culture on. The problem is that's real life and not TES. You shouldn't base a game race off something that has nothing to do with the game or what they have been over the entire series. Not to mention Tank and Healer are both support, the two least liked and least played roles in every MMORPG in existence. I'm sorry but most people like to DPS. When your race is known for that over all the games and they go and put them as something they were hardly known for or not known for, thats not cool. It feels lazy and indeed biased like they didn't care. I mean Nords already better tanks, Dunmer can heal, magdps, and stamdps, argonians Healer and Tank, recycled roles from the other two races in the Pact and not even one roles they were well known for and good at. That indeed seems lazy and shows that they really didn't seem to care.
yeah with the recent changes they seem like they just throw random stats at everything. and i also hate that argos racial doesnt fit previous games.
my comment was about something else not about argos.0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭
yeah with the recent changes they seem like they just throw random stats at everything. and i also hate that argos racial doesnt fit previous games.
my comment was about something else not about argos.
Oh I know, I'm sorry about that. It's just they didn't handle a lot of races very well. It's just kind of upsetting they treat some races better than others. I get carried away because they buff the already strong races and don't do anything special or nerf the weaker ones.Edited by Koronach on 14 February 2021 13:371 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭@WrathOfInnos as it stands all stamina classes use a weapon dot to maintain glyphs, and all but the Templar and Nightblade use weapon spammables and executes because they out perform their class ones in both PvP and PvE.
If no changes are made improve stamina class spammable(which would be fine for my DK and sorc), %increase to damage done with a weapon or weapon ability would be a pretty big bump for redguard DPS.1 -
Leogon✭✭✭✭✭
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Of course there are things in ESO that are canon but not everything is. The races being one of them and if you can't keep the races canon then it's a spin-off.IronWooshu wrote: »
The Three Banner war is canon.
Even in the main single player games, ONLY canon is the stories of the guilds and main quest. Everything else your character does for anyone else is the same as this game, filler around the main canon story.Edited by Leogon on 18 February 2021 18:180 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭At least Redguards passives are working. Argonian has a couple that arent. Currently on PTS they do not have any Disease or Poison resistance.3 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭I would like to see zos do something unique like allowing Redguards to summon their Shehai. It could occupy the poison slot changing the weapon visuals to the Shehai and giving the slotted weapon some additional physical/spell penetration. That way weapon enchantments along with different sets could be used while keeping the Shehai function and visuals.1
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renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lmao I love when people mention khajiit's crit like crit hasn't been gutted and khajiits haven't been nerfed into the ground.0 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Redguard should get a reduction to all stamina costing skills and maybe 1800 penetration. Highly skilled and disciplined.1