Racial Passives and the Forgotten Redguard

Kory

I honestly just want to listen in on the discussion of the developers when doing racial passives.

JobooAGS

Dunmer and orc still do better than redguard even with green food (hearty corn chowder)

Here is some math

Spoiler

Dunmer:
Dunmer gets 258 wd 1910 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 6485 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and only having major and minor brutality (keep in mind that you can get better numbers with adding more fighters guild abilites or being a class like templar or sorc that have weapon damage or even stam intergrated in their kit)

you would get 361 wd and 6874 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 658

which would get a total effective wd of 1019

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 6615 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 633

which would get a total effective wd of 1005 (Interesting)



Orc:
Orc gets 258 wd 1000 stam and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 5575 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 5910 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 566

which would get a total effective wd of 927

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 5687 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 544

which would get a total effective wd of 916 (Interesting)


Redguard:

Redguard gets 2000 stam and 6048 stam from hearty corn chowder

a total of 8048 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 8531 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 816

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8209 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 785

We even can include a stam sorc for the best case sinerio (sorc gets 8% more stam)

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and otherwise the same buffs as above

you would get 9174 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 878

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 8853 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 847

Lets throw in Altmer for poops and giggles

Altmer:

Altmer gets 258 wd and 4575 stam from lava foot soup

a total of 258 wd and 4575 stam

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 361 wd and 4850 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 464

which would get a total effective wd of 825

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 372 wd and 4667 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 447

which would get a total effective wd of 819

An Altmer sorc would also get 2% extra wd in addition to the 8% stam so we have to calculate that in if we were to compare.

with multipliers assuming 5/1/1 and the same buffs as above

you would get 366 wd and 5216 stam

If we were to convert the stam to wd assuming a 10.45 stam to 1 wd ratio, you would get an effective wd of 499

which would get a total effective wd of 865

redguard is only marginally better and this is only assuming that the only other source of wd is bound arraments, which means you are not including other skills like hurricane, beast trap, dbos and more) with other multipliers existing and bar set ups being of high variance depending on the build, we can still assume that altmer will come up on top.

with 7 medium with the same buffs as above

you would get 377 wd and 5033 stam

we were to convert the stam to wd you would get an effective wd of 482

which would get a total effective wd of 859 (clearly better than redguard)

it is just sad that altmer is even legitamently comparable to redguard and worse still surpassing it imho.

TL;DR: Dunmer > Orc > Altmer > Redguard

Redguard needs some buffs if it wants to stay competitive. It can be a damage boost or even a twin blade and blunt style buff when involving weapons.

Stahlor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8H6akD8qUg

danno8

God's, it's time to end these ridiculous race wars already and just let people choose what passives they want for their character.

The lore nuts can choose lore appropriate bonuses and the min-maxers/everyone else can choose build related/RP choices.

JobooAGS

Stahlor wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8H6akD8qUg

That is interesting, just why did the devs choose to make redguard a tank race (especially when it is the squishiest race in the game and in the previous games and the previous iterations of eso redguard was a dd or skirmisher). I still think Imperial and Nord are better. group ulility, health, resists, and off stat sustain are more important to me as a tank

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

show previous quotes

Stahlor wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8H6akD8qUg

That is interesting, just why did the devs choose to make redguard a tank race (especially when it is the squishiest race in the game and in the previous games and the previous iterations of eso redguard was a dd or skirmisher). I still think Imperial and Nord are better. group ulility, health, resists, and off stat sustain are more important to me as a tank

Remember, Redguards have an XP bonus to Sword and Shield. Although that is mostly due to ESO having "Dualwield" and "One Hand and shield" instead of "Onehanded" and "Blocking". So since Redguards have a canonical bonus to Onehanded and Blocking, ZOS probably figured they'd have to get a bonus to "Onehanded and Shield" (as if they aren't also good at Dualwield).

To me at least that video isn't really new info. Even with the old passive it was fairly easy to get that passive to proc as a tank, since all your light attacks, your taunts pulls and bashes are all direct damage. The only thing that changed now is that you can keep block up the whole time as long as you have elemental blockade running, which is neat. But they were always a tank option in my book.
Magicka sustain is also important for a tank though, which is why Argonians and Imperials were considered the better choice until now (and probably even now still). Your ranged taunt, your shield, your chains, your heal all of those are magicka based skills. Especially now that tanks (wearing heavy armor) take more magic damage, I think Breton is actually the new tank race we need to look out for. Then again with the removal of status effects being applied by NPCs, Nords offer more spell resistance, so maybe not... for now.
At the end of the day Imperials and Nords, thanks to their superior ultimate generation/cost reduction, are still the best tank races, because the quality of life problems of the tank are none of your group's concern, especially as long as dps is everything and you supply Warhorn.

Stahlor

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To me at least that video isn't really new info. Even with the old passive it was fairly easy to get that passive to proc as a tank, since all your light attacks, your taunts pulls and bashes are all direct damage. The only thing that changed now is that you can keep block up the whole time as long as you have elemental blockade running, which is neat. But they were always a tank option in my book.

Mainly shows, that Redguard is not as useless as some people might think. In the end it doesn't really matter, which race you run on a tank. The incoming damage in the new content is so high, that you are a one-shot anyway as soon as you miss to block or dodge the important attacks. Even adds in the new 4-man dungeons are hitting much harder than the bosses in old trials.

JobooAGS

Stahlor wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To me at least that video isn't really new info. Even with the old passive it was fairly easy to get that passive to proc as a tank, since all your light attacks, your taunts pulls and bashes are all direct damage. The only thing that changed now is that you can keep block up the whole time as long as you have elemental blockade running, which is neat. But they were always a tank option in my book.

Mainly shows, that Redguard is not as useless as some people might think. In the end it doesn't really matter, which race you run on a tank. The incoming damage in the new content is so high, that you are a one-shot anyway as soon as you miss to block or dodge the important attacks. Even adds in the new 4-man dungeons are hitting much harder than the bosses in old trials.

Group utility is still far more important so imperial and nord will still be ahead. Additionally other than wall of elements, redguard has 0 mag sustain. Being 3rd best at best at something and worst to next to worst at everything else isn’t exactly a good spot. With the 1000 wd/sd changes argonians are in a better spot as contending for #1 healers.

Stahlor

JobooAGS wrote: »

Group utility is still far more important so imperial and nord will still be ahead. Additionally other than wall of elements, redguard has 0 mag sustain. Being 3rd best at best at something and worst to next to worst at everything else isn’t exactly a good spot. With the 1000 wd/sd changes argonians are in a better spot as contending for #1 healers.

I guess for 99,999% of the teams, it really doesn't matter, if they can fire their war horn 5 sec earlier or later.

icAirborne

JobooAGS wrote: »

show previous quotes

Stahlor wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To me at least that video isn't really new info. Even with the old passive it was fairly easy to get that passive to proc as a tank, since all your light attacks, your taunts pulls and bashes are all direct damage. The only thing that changed now is that you can keep block up the whole time as long as you have elemental blockade running, which is neat. But they were always a tank option in my book.

Mainly shows, that Redguard is not as useless as some people might think. In the end it doesn't really matter, which race you run on a tank. The incoming damage in the new content is so high, that you are a one-shot anyway as soon as you miss to block or dodge the important attacks. Even adds in the new 4-man dungeons are hitting much harder than the bosses in old trials.

Group utility is still far more important so imperial and nord will still be ahead. Additionally other than wall of elements, redguard has 0 mag sustain. Being 3rd best at best at something and worst to next to worst at everything else isn’t exactly a good spot. With the 1000 wd/sd changes argonians are in a better spot as contending for #1 healers.

Eh I mean the redguard passive is 12k stam return per minute just for doing your job with keeping up crusher. I’ve always played nord because of the ult gen and extra resistances. But really thinking about it, you really don’t need extra resistances, and the ult gen passive takes over 8 minutes to generate an extra war horn. I would much rather the redguard stam return for comfortable poopfist spam, than just making it to the hodor horn waiting list a few seconds earlier. As for mag sustain, it shouldn’t be an issue since people have been sustaining just fine with zero mag regen passives on nord.

Imperial is at its best on dk tanks due to all the high skill costs, yet mag still isn’t really an issue anyways. Most skilled tanks just dump it with igneous shield for the stam return via helping hands in the current patch. I also find the ult benefit pretty lacklustre, you’d have to horn 16 times to get a “free” war horn. So I’d personally still prefer redguard even on a dk tank.

Edit: Another thing I just thought of is the ult passives being made kind of redundant with the new group major heroism set. You’re just going to be sitting on more war horns as a group with the increased ult gen

Ratzkifal

Stahlor wrote: »

show previous quotes

JobooAGS wrote: »

Group utility is still far more important so imperial and nord will still be ahead. Additionally other than wall of elements, redguard has 0 mag sustain. Being 3rd best at best at something and worst to next to worst at everything else isn’t exactly a good spot. With the 1000 wd/sd changes argonians are in a better spot as contending for #1 healers.

I guess for 99,999% of the teams, it really doesn't matter, if they can fire their war horn 5 sec earlier or later.

Oh don't say that, especially not when we are talking about score runs (which is essentially what we are always talking about when it comes to these small differences, except Bosmer stealth). 5 seconds earlier for the first warhorn means 10 seconds earlier for the second warhorn and 15 seconds for the third. It also means a greater Major Force uptime which means more dps which means shorter fights and higher scores.
Nords and Imperials are the best tanks because they can increase group dps the most. That's all that really matters in this discussion.

JobooAGS

icAirborne wrote: »

show previous quotes

JobooAGS wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

To me at least that video isn't really new info. Even with the old passive it was fairly easy to get that passive to proc as a tank, since all your light attacks, your taunts pulls and bashes are all direct damage. The only thing that changed now is that you can keep block up the whole time as long as you have elemental blockade running, which is neat. But they were always a tank option in my book.

Mainly shows, that Redguard is not as useless as some people might think. In the end it doesn't really matter, which race you run on a tank. The incoming damage in the new content is so high, that you are a one-shot anyway as soon as you miss to block or dodge the important attacks. Even adds in the new 4-man dungeons are hitting much harder than the bosses in old trials.

Group utility is still far more important so imperial and nord will still be ahead. Additionally other than wall of elements, redguard has 0 mag sustain. Being 3rd best at best at something and worst to next to worst at everything else isn’t exactly a good spot. With the 1000 wd/sd changes argonians are in a better spot as contending for #1 healers.

Eh I mean the redguard passive is 12k stam return per minute just for doing your job with keeping up crusher. I’ve always played nord because of the ult gen and extra resistances. But really thinking about it, you really don’t need extra resistances, and the ult gen passive takes over 8 minutes to generate an extra war horn. I would much rather the redguard stam return for comfortable poopfist spam, than just making it to the hodor horn waiting list a few seconds earlier. As for mag sustain, it shouldn’t be an issue since people have been sustaining just fine with zero mag regen passives on nord.

Imperial is at its best on dk tanks due to all the high skill costs, yet mag still isn’t really an issue anyways. Most skilled tanks just dump it with igneous shield for the stam return via helping hands in the current patch. I also find the ult benefit pretty lacklustre, you’d have to horn 16 times to get a “free” war horn. So I’d personally still prefer redguard even on a dk tank.

Edit: Another thing I just thought of is the ult passives being made kind of redundant with the new group major heroism set. You’re just going to be sitting on more war horns as a group with the increased ult gen

As it was said earlier even on redguard it was easy to proc your sustain passive as a tank indicating that this isnt any real news. But there war a reason why nord and imperial (even argonian) were chosen over redguard. But even so 3rd best at one thing and nearly last in the rest isn’t really good overall especially in a pvp perspective

Stahlor

[/quote]
...5 seconds earlier for the first warhorn means 10 seconds earlier for the second warhorn and 15 seconds for the third.[/quote]

Only when your healers and the second tank are on imperials/nords, too. Usually they're not...

Ratzkifal

Stahlor wrote: »

show previous quotes

...5 seconds earlier for the first warhorn means 10 seconds earlier for the second warhorn and 15 seconds for the third.

Only when your healers and the second tank are on imperials/nords, too. Usually they're not...

@Stahlor No, I was talking about a case with one tank being the lone warhorn user. Adding more people who use Warhorn to this doesn't change that this tank will continuously get their warhorn faster, adding up more and more time advantage the more Warhorns are cast by him/her.
When we are talking about optimized groups, which we are, then the second tank will of course also be a Nord or Imperial. In that case it's not just the warhorn from one player that is being cast earlier but from both players, doubling the effectiveness, or trippling in the case of three tanks like in vCR+3!
Different rules apply to healers because they need to prioritize sustain to keep other buffs and ground-based spells up even when the group is forced to change locations constantly and they don't receive damage often enough to make being a Nord worth it (although that depends on the content). Imperial on the other hand isn't that bad of an option for them in any case.