Feb 15 Cyrodiil Test Details

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Well if turning it off and back on again doesn't help, turning it off for longer before turning it back on might help.

Prax3des

I've posted in other threads on the topic too, but will chime in here because of the "positive feedback" bit: I don't like this current no procs conditional because it takes too many not actually overperforming sets out of play, and with the game just as laggy (if not laggier), combat is even more frustrating when your skills don't fire. I've been PVPing for 5 years and while yes, I do PVE content on release, what keeps me playing regularly and logging into ESO every day is PVP, but it won't if things continue like they are.

techyeshic

Ok. A lot of you are losing me in the argument that this is a terribly heavy handed, lazy change. It is that; but not because proc sets were fine. Stacking 35k+ health and still being able to damage, or tank dozens of people by self healing and extreme health recovery was awful.

Some damage procs its not about them doing more damage than abilities, because some do. It's also that abilities base damage are still there and 1 5 piece proc added more to that damage than any stat set, multiple times over. They were unbalanced and yes, a lot of people were carried by them. Some may not notice because everyone that used them that you fight also lost a carry, but for many that didn't; you can feel like a god at times these past 3 weeks compared to fighting some 40 k vatatrash master before with your 25k-30k health character that needed actual damage stats and more than 1 ability in a row.

Now; what ZOS is doing is not the way. I managed to survive the proc meta running stats and could do so again WHILE they take 6 months to really address the issue. I've had my break, and it's been fun, but no need to completely water down PvP so much.

Aireal

Maybe It's just the times of day that I play because I saw NO change in lag. No change in the fact that I could use my gap closers 90% of the time. My skills work the majority of the time.

When they didn't work? Well, that would be when a very large-scale battle was happening and during Primetime.. you know what? That's when they weren't working correctly before the test... Last night I still got a slide show effect during battles, my gap closer didn't work most of the time, skills were slow to fire.. BUT on the same exact character during the morning, they did...Why?

Well, it sure wasn't the lack of Proc's and conditionals on one and having them on the other.

As one of my guildmates said.. with proc's and conditionals not working, why bother to get any new content.. why buy the next chapter? Many of my PvP only guildmates only venture into PvE land to get the new sets new content spawns, so why bother buying.

I started doing PvP just for the Transmute crystals, with guildmates in the mornings, now I often run with my son or a few old TES ( singleplayer ) friends in the afternoon. I haven't been hanging with them since the test started, they just decided to ride the test out in B.G.'s ( I don't do B.G.'s), they said they might be back in September...

Just my experience.. or lack their of.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for a variety of rule violations. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Pepegrillos

I think the worst part of all this is not the decision they took, but how they took it. Gina's post reveals the rationale behind it, the reasoning process behind important decisions about gameplay and which elements they considered.

To start with, they suggest part of the decision was based on the feedback received. But they don't know how to carry out a feedback process. They confound representative samples with biased ones.

Additionaly, they take wrongly or unmotivated gameplay decisions. They jump from a performance test with negative results to a gameplay decision that doesn't improve performance. And I say jump because besides a biased feedback sample, there is no ground to take that decision except for a guess or a whim.

Finally, they seem unaware of the kind of game they are working with. They treat a core part of a Triple A MMO as if it were a system still in beta development. They expect us, paying customers, to endure Cyrodiil in a permanent testing state while they work out a tentative fix for 7 months.

People in the pvp community have complained for a while that those in charge don't know what they are doing. I think what this latest gameplay decision reveals is worse: it's not just a content problem, what they think the issues are, but how they think about the issues and how they arrive at potential solutions.

Minnesinger

So literally 100% of my builds are unsable. To make it worse the "proc sets" is a wide range of sets that have been in game for years. In case of my favoured Seducer since the start of this game. I better check the list of allowed sets and burn maybe millions of gold to upgrade them. That is the price. Also I am afraid none of the gear we buy with AP are usable so there is no point of buying from the Golden Vendor.

spotzhopz

This isnt very "play your own way" of you zos

barney2525

red_emu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

This reminds me very strongly of the faction-locked campaign argument in which, when it seemed very unlikely to happen, the proponents of faction locks kept debating in favor of it, while many of it's opponents largely let it slide because "surely ZOS won't indulge them, right?"

But then ZOS did, and though faction lock opponents came out of the woodwork to complain about it, it was too late.


Let's not pretend there haven't been years of debaters saying "ZOS should remove proc sets," or "PVP should be about skill", or even "ZOS should limit the sets in Cyrodiil to help balance!" That's been a fairly consistent, recurring strain in PVP discussions and it's not that surprising that without consistent, vocal opposition that the Devs decided to give it a try.

Then add on the several forum threads of positive feedback for no-proc gameplay, and it's pretty clear that most of the feedback ZOS got was positive. Of course the people who don't like the change are complaining now, but in all likelihood, it'll be Q3 before their feedback gets put into effect.


I also hear some ragging on the minority of forum goers who polled in favor of no-proc sets. Have you considered that some people learned their lesson from the faction lock debate? if you want ZOS to take your side, you've got to advocate for it consistently. You can't just not say anything and expect ZOS to go out of their way to poll you. Really? Since when have they ever polled their PVP playerbase over sweeping changes to see if we like the current meta? If you don't like a proposed change, say something when it comes up on the forums, not just after ZOS has announced it! ZOS may not listen, but at least they heard you before the changes were locked in to the next update.

Otherwise, you end up like many opponents of the faction lock: looking on with dismay as ZOS listens to the fans who did consistently advocate for their desired change instead of what you believe to be a "silent majority" who oppose it.

While I agree, that the silent half of PvPers did not submit feedback, let's face it, there are two simple reasons for that:

1. We have been lied to. We were told this is a test for performance and submitted feedback accordingly. Not at any point have we been told that this is a "gameplay balance" test. We have been tricked!
2. The moment you mention that you like proc sets (I am one of those as I like the extra flavour and visual fidelity to my builds) you are instantly shamed and bullied by the non-proc fans. A friend of mine ended up quitting the game after she advocated to keep the procs because of the amount of abuse she got in game.

All in all. ZOS asked the wrong question and is now interpreting the feedback to suit their own agenda without having to take any responsibility for the outcomes.

I think you are going a bit overboard. Seems to me that when they make such a radical change as shutting down procs, to see how that affects performance, they will also be evaluating what this effect is going to have on PvP overall.

That's just common sense.

I certainly would not consider it 'lying to us'.

IMHO

Dunning_Kruger

“ the game is laggier than its ever been let us have our procs” is the funniest thing I have read. Because people also don’t want to admit to just turn off cross healing. Honestly they can turn procs back on if they turned off cross healing. Because despite what people say cross healing we can see now greatly affected performance in terms of what types of gameplay it promotes. Ideally both would be turned off but I’d compromise.

Iskaldt

barney2525 wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

This reminds me very strongly of the faction-locked campaign argument in which, when it seemed very unlikely to happen, the proponents of faction locks kept debating in favor of it, while many of it's opponents largely let it slide because "surely ZOS won't indulge them, right?"

But then ZOS did, and though faction lock opponents came out of the woodwork to complain about it, it was too late.


Let's not pretend there haven't been years of debaters saying "ZOS should remove proc sets," or "PVP should be about skill", or even "ZOS should limit the sets in Cyrodiil to help balance!" That's been a fairly consistent, recurring strain in PVP discussions and it's not that surprising that without consistent, vocal opposition that the Devs decided to give it a try.

Then add on the several forum threads of positive feedback for no-proc gameplay, and it's pretty clear that most of the feedback ZOS got was positive. Of course the people who don't like the change are complaining now, but in all likelihood, it'll be Q3 before their feedback gets put into effect.


I also hear some ragging on the minority of forum goers who polled in favor of no-proc sets. Have you considered that some people learned their lesson from the faction lock debate? if you want ZOS to take your side, you've got to advocate for it consistently. You can't just not say anything and expect ZOS to go out of their way to poll you. Really? Since when have they ever polled their PVP playerbase over sweeping changes to see if we like the current meta? If you don't like a proposed change, say something when it comes up on the forums, not just after ZOS has announced it! ZOS may not listen, but at least they heard you before the changes were locked in to the next update.

Otherwise, you end up like many opponents of the faction lock: looking on with dismay as ZOS listens to the fans who did consistently advocate for their desired change instead of what you believe to be a "silent majority" who oppose it.

While I agree, that the silent half of PvPers did not submit feedback, let's face it, there are two simple reasons for that:

1. We have been lied to. We were told this is a test for performance and submitted feedback accordingly. Not at any point have we been told that this is a "gameplay balance" test. We have been tricked!
2. The moment you mention that you like proc sets (I am one of those as I like the extra flavour and visual fidelity to my builds) you are instantly shamed and bullied by the non-proc fans. A friend of mine ended up quitting the game after she advocated to keep the procs because of the amount of abuse she got in game.

All in all. ZOS asked the wrong question and is now interpreting the feedback to suit their own agenda without having to take any responsibility for the outcomes.

I think you are going a bit overboard. Seems to me that when they make such a radical change as shutting down procs, to see how that affects performance, they will also be evaluating what this effect is going to have on PvP overall.

That's just common sense.

I certainly would not consider it 'lying to us'.

IMHO

I dont think he's going overboard at all. I havent been vocal about my feelings about these tests becouse they were tests to figure out why the performance was lacking. i have been waiting, and mostly done other pvp activitys while these tests were ongoing. At no point did i suspect that the disabled procsets in cyrodiil was going to get extended like this, for half a year!
When there was no data saying that performance has improved by it.

I dont know where this "positive feedback" is from. I dont remember seeing any polls or anything like that.
i feel like this "feedback" is not from enough players to make it valid. i want a poll. preferably one ingame when you enter cyrodiil, once per account.


Yes, there are items and sets that need serious tuning, like malacath, Crimson, Venomous, Sylvarra etc etc. But this seriously isnt reason enough to disable ALL sets but like what 15? for half a year while they slowly code in new ones. if they seriously have to disable procs, they should leave the game as it was, and then add a finished patch i half a year with the new tuned sets instead.

I was hyped for u29 for all the new sets and racial passives etc. But now im not even sure im going to play anymore. Certiantly no reason to spend any money on Eso+ or Dlc's or expantions. Becouse i cant use any of the items/sets for what i want.

If i had known that this was going to be the result of these tests i would have voiced my opinion about it louder and sooner.

Prety pissed about it all tbh.

Prax3des

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

“ the game is laggier than its ever been let us have our procs” is the funniest thing I have read. Because people also don’t want to admit to just turn off cross healing. Honestly they can turn procs back on if they turned off cross healing. Because despite what people say cross healing we can see now greatly affected performance in terms of what types of gameplay it promotes. Ideally both would be turned off but I’d compromise.

Yes, while the game plays like a slideshow, it's not a stretch to want procs turned back on, since even the devs admit performance hasn't improved. The conditions for what a "proc" is are too broad, and this whole test has resulted in nothing but more faction stacks.

As for cross heals, there are plenty of people on the forums and elsewhere acknowledging their role in worsening lag, me included. Because I feel one way about procs + the conditions & lag doesn't mean I think the cross healing reversion was a good thing either.

Sanguinor2

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I too would be genuinely interested why Zos can only balance after the motto go big or go home. Not necessarily towards this topic alone but in general the modus operandi employed by Zos is to either change nothing or make a huge change. As I understand it these changes are made as harsh as they are because of how most sets are coded as proc sets even tho we wouldnt count them as proc sets ourselfves (seducer for example or nma).

Scardan

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Honestly the vateshran destro alone makes me happy that I won't be seeing it for most of the year.... on a side note can we delete that staff from bgs too?

What's the point of existing of this weapon then?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

It honestly feels like a vocal minority are standing on the ashes of build diversity in Cyrodiil, congratulating themselves on "fixing the problem" meanwhile everyone else is stood around in a laggy hell looking at them like they're insane.

Also, of course the Mag Sorcs LOVE the no proc meta, because it is so heavily skewed in their favour.

Scardan

DemonNinja wrote: »

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

Rewards of the worthy might need a rethink.

Understatement of the year. Basically ALL the rewards in Cyrodiil should be adjusted if they decide to keep this for 6-7 months. Rewards of the Worthy. End of Campaign Rewards. Quest rewards. Golden Vendor. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Not golden vendor, please. There are PvE people who can not run a vet dungeons and want to buy a monster set. Thx.

Faded

Scardan wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Honestly the vateshran destro alone makes me happy that I won't be seeing it for most of the year.... on a side note can we delete that staff from bgs too?

What's the point of existing of this weapon then?

An excellent question.

Qbiken

Since this will most likely cause BG's to be more populated, can we get some fixes for the ridiculous queue times and the issue where you literally fight the same players every evening due to the horrible implemented MMR system? (And no we don't need CP BG's that's stuff can stay in the trash where it belongs)

We need the ability to select deathmatch as an option. Make deathmatch group queue an option and keep the remaining objective modes solo queue only. Or give players the ability to create custom lobbies (without rewards obviously).

Regarding the decisions made:

While I enjoyed the no-proc tests, Cyrodiil will be very stale for the next 6 months. The solution is to look at individual procsets and adjust them accordingly, and it still baffles me why it's such an impossible task to have balance adjustment made every 2-3 weeks for minor adjustments (like literally every other mmo out there does).

Jaraal

red_emu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

This reminds me very strongly of the faction-locked campaign argument in which, when it seemed very unlikely to happen, the proponents of faction locks kept debating in favor of it, while many of it's opponents largely let it slide because "surely ZOS won't indulge them, right?"

But then ZOS did, and though faction lock opponents came out of the woodwork to complain about it, it was too late.


Let's not pretend there haven't been years of debaters saying "ZOS should remove proc sets," or "PVP should be about skill", or even "ZOS should limit the sets in Cyrodiil to help balance!" That's been a fairly consistent, recurring strain in PVP discussions and it's not that surprising that without consistent, vocal opposition that the Devs decided to give it a try.

Then add on the several forum threads of positive feedback for no-proc gameplay, and it's pretty clear that most of the feedback ZOS got was positive. Of course the people who don't like the change are complaining now, but in all likelihood, it'll be Q3 before their feedback gets put into effect.


I also hear some ragging on the minority of forum goers who polled in favor of no-proc sets. Have you considered that some people learned their lesson from the faction lock debate? if you want ZOS to take your side, you've got to advocate for it consistently. You can't just not say anything and expect ZOS to go out of their way to poll you. Really? Since when have they ever polled their PVP playerbase over sweeping changes to see if we like the current meta? If you don't like a proposed change, say something when it comes up on the forums, not just after ZOS has announced it! ZOS may not listen, but at least they heard you before the changes were locked in to the next update.

Otherwise, you end up like many opponents of the faction lock: looking on with dismay as ZOS listens to the fans who did consistently advocate for their desired change instead of what you believe to be a "silent majority" who oppose it.

While I agree, that the silent half of PvPers did not submit feedback, let's face it, there are two simple reasons for that:

1. We have been lied to. We were told this is a test for performance and submitted feedback accordingly. Not at any point have we been told that this is a "gameplay balance" test. We have been tricked!
2. The moment you mention that you like proc sets (I am one of those as I like the extra flavour and visual fidelity to my builds) you are instantly shamed and bullied by the non-proc fans. A friend of mine ended up quitting the game after she advocated to keep the procs because of the amount of abuse she got in game.

All in all. ZOS asked the wrong question and is now interpreting the feedback to suit their own agenda without having to take any responsibility for the outcomes.

This is so true!

Regardless of how this turns out, they not only threw people who enjoy having access to all the gear they own under the bus, but they placed the blame squarely upon the shoulders of the people who were complaining about procs in the first place.

'You guys liked no procs? Cool, have six more months of it! Don't like it? Hey, we did it because you asked us to! Blame them, not us!'

Be careful what you wish for, because it just may come true.

PetrKerosinOlej

... sadge

cant wait to use the new cp system after years of waiting with FOKKEN 18 SETS in Cyrodiil! WOW. Guess i will have to duel ppl in alikr or play umpalumpa city or whatever is the npc desert called for 6 months to test them in all of their glory.

Well atleast the tests worked great! and the game doesnt lag anymore am i right? It could have been much worse where the tests didnt do anything for the performanceand the game would actually run even worse at certain scenarios like in running into ball groups etc... Just send the guy who came up with this to idea to prolong it to a brain surgeon cuz he has to have a tumor or he played too much of prime time cyrodiil that his brain has rotten away from all its 80ms with 5s+ skill delay.

Scardan

Demonhunter wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

The no procs has been very popular with people including myself and a lot of old players/people who quit have come back to the game as no procs makes the game significantly more balanced. I think it is a good that they are keeping no procs going, imagine having to use skills in PvP to do damage and heal so many people have got used to their armor doing it for them. Plus they are going to change the coding of gear such as Seducer to work in Cyro, so there will be more build diversity soon!

You realize most mmorpg's including the classic WoW back when it was very popular used proc sets. All of a sudden people are happy cause their able to survive longer with mediocre sets. I mean is it really skill or just being in a group that's carrying you? I fail to see using proc sets removes skill, just make the proc sets work on a combo move instead of auto conditions. That way you have to work at it so that your proc set triggers instead of a chance of triggering. Or a way to build up combo points and releasing it at the right moment.

Well, I am bad PvPer, and as I started to use single Defiler set in BGs, I was suddenly killing much more people with my build which was stam cro bow bow...pve full medium build xD.

Dunning_Kruger

I just hope they don’t turn on the degenerate heavy attack build sets that promote the laziest lightning heavy playstyle that should have never existed. On god not getting lightning heavied by some rando has made solo/ small scale sooooo much better.

Scardan

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

I just hope they don’t turn on the degenerate heavy attack build sets that promote the laziest lightning heavy playstyle that should have never existed. On god not getting lightning heavied by some rando has made solo/ small scale sooooo much better.

For example?

NeillMcAttack

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Well if turning it off and back on again doesn't help, turning it off for longer before turning it back on might help.

This is the best comment I have read here in a long time! KEKW

mikebald

There was no noticeable impact and yet you're going to continue to cripple PVP gameplay? I can understand why Non-CP people would prefer having proc sets disabled, but if you're listening to the people who are vying for the ESO of the past, you're going to alienate all those that care about ESO's future. You're taking a HUGE step backwards and for no other reason than the loud minority is complaining. Bring us back to the Status Quo and go from there; please stop throwing things toward an arbitrary bucket and seeing if anything lands inside. In the VERY least enable those sets that aren't in the spirit of "proc" sets, such as Seducers.

mikebald

Vyseman wrote: »

i realy dont know why ppls are cryin about Crimson. The Set is totaly terrible! Since everyone know how the Profeffect is looking, everyone walks out of it. so no Heal and no damage for you. There are sets like Alessian MUCH better cuz it gives you a constant heal (HP Rec)


And if you just change a bit your playstile you can laugh about dmg procsets, you can easily outplay them and doin also alot of dmg

I couldn't agree more, a SLIGHT adjustment to your playstyle makes Crimson set almost useless. This applies to a lot of other proc sets as well, if you're able to react to your enemy properly you'll live.

RealLoveBVB

mikebald wrote: »

Vyseman wrote: »

i realy dont know why ppls are cryin about Crimson. The Set is totaly terrible! Since everyone know how the Profeffect is looking, everyone walks out of it. so no Heal and no damage for you. There are sets like Alessian MUCH better cuz it gives you a constant heal (HP Rec)


And if you just change a bit your playstile you can laugh about dmg procsets, you can easily outplay them and doin also alot of dmg

I couldn't agree more, a SLIGHT adjustment to your playstyle makes Crimson set almost useless. This applies to a lot of other proc sets as well, if you're able to react to your enemy properly you'll live.

Oh right. So as a ganker you want to kill your enemy as fast as possible. If you do your initial hit, you can't attack anymore (as melee), because you have to dodge the crimson circle, which makes your gank a fail. Your target have time to recover and that's it. Yes, -terrible- set

StaticWave

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The fact is there will always be some meta setups. Looking back at proc meta you could clearly see what sets were widely used by almost every PvPer (Crimson, arena weapons, syvarras, etc.) Looking back at the stat meta before that you could also see what sets were commonly used (Fury, new moon acolyte, clever alc, etc.). In fact, there will also be a meta with these 15 sets (Spriggan, Beekeeper, Endurance,etc.).

If I were to pick between a no rules environment vs a limited sets environment, I would pick the latter every time. The perception that you lose "build diversity" clouds your own judgement. Diversity just does not exist in a game where 80% of the set choices are bad leaving you with only have 6-7 decent sets to use. At least in a limited set environment, skill is what truly matters apart from class imbalance.

You're not wrong but I still think it's insane that sets like Automaton, Willow's Path, and Innate Axiom are going to be put in the same category as more egregious, actual proc sets. There's gotta be a different choice other than the 2 extremes presented.

I think it's just how they coded those sets to have a proc/check condition. I believe they will eventually change the coding for those sets to let them work in cyro. We'll just have to wait it out.

StaticWave

regime211 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LMAO at this point I really feel bad for ZOS. People literally COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING. First they complain about procs, then when ZOS disabled all procs including stat based procs, they complain about it. Like man there is just nothing that satisfies you guys lmao. If you want to quit, quit. It'll leave more room for people who genuinely appreciate a no proc cyrodiil environment. Yea we won't be able to use the stat sets we like, but who cares? PvP will be at its best state that it's ever been. And it's not like they're not gonna put in the work to re-enable some sets. They'll have to rework the coding and it takes time. Seriously, I can't stress enough how good this decision is. Finally I and many like-minded others can PvP without seeing a single proc on our death recap. Rejoice

lol at it's best state? good luck riding around for hours to find one fight to just then ride around for a few more hours to find another one. get REAL that is how pvp has been even WITH procs

Yea, I had a blast in cyro with our group

mikebald

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

mikebald wrote: »

Vyseman wrote: »

i realy dont know why ppls are cryin about Crimson. The Set is totaly terrible! Since everyone know how the Profeffect is looking, everyone walks out of it. so no Heal and no damage for you. There are sets like Alessian MUCH better cuz it gives you a constant heal (HP Rec)


And if you just change a bit your playstile you can laugh about dmg procsets, you can easily outplay them and doin also alot of dmg

I couldn't agree more, a SLIGHT adjustment to your playstyle makes Crimson set almost useless. This applies to a lot of other proc sets as well, if you're able to react to your enemy properly you'll live.

Oh right. So as a ganker you want to kill your enemy as fast as possible. If you do your initial hit, you can't attack anymore (as melee), because you have to dodge the crimson circle, which makes your gank a fail. Your target have time to recover and that's it. Yes, -terrible- set

So, because people can survive your 1vX onslaught you want the set removed? Yup, completely fair and balanced. [Obvious Sarcasm]