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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861

Why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a good change

  • Gardarik
    Gardarik
    ✭✭✭
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.
  • Hexquisite
    Hexquisite
    ✭✭✭✭
    My faction never groups in my time slot, it is usually just 1 or 2 smaller groups running. The other factions have tons of groups, they are much better organized, and my faction just gets overrun and often loses everything--and then people log off demoralized. Even when we try to get people to join our group, they usually just want to solo--but are always around us lol.

    Now, I don't really care about winning--but I do care about trying to get some even numbered fights and not always being 6 people vs 40. When my faction recently had an influx of guilds that ran groups, the fights spread out all over the map and it was great--but now we are back to almost my whole faction being solo players again and all the fighting taking place at one keep.

    My hope, is that this change will get some of these players to at least be more organized, and maybe form some groups and work together. Maybe the worst thing about all these solo players, is that most of them are negative "Zone generals" that one never sees in a group.

    Our group healers have to theorycraft just as much as DPS, esp with all these changes. One can still "solo heal" but as a poster above stated, start thinking about mitgation--and not wearing what you wore 4 years ago. There is still a lot a solo support person can do outside of a group, and frankly many of these things are more important than straight up heals.
    PC NA
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  • montjie
    montjie
    ✭✭✭
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    [edited to remove baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on 17 November 2020 14:13
    - easy farmable saltbucket -
    - retired QQ king of Daggerfall Covenant PC-EU Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/weird dragon name/Ravenwatch zone chat -
  • alterfenixeb17_ESO
    alterfenixeb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    1. It is just that it is not settled which group is a monitory and which is not. I mean by what measure? How many actually openly supported the idea or how many left during last 2 weeks (or are still considering it)?
    2. Unless you run some 1 vs X build and nobody shows up to defend then running off (or getting yourself killed) is basically everything you can do but that applies also to probably even almost every dps player too.
    3. In other games healer is expected to HEAL. Not do any damage but heal. In TESO in general (with an exception of Cyrodiil now) healer is always expected to heal again - regardless of if they are grouped or not. Also the only 3 areas where healers (and most other players too for that matter) are forced to group are trials, dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. All the rest of group content does not have such requirement
    4. If it is not the problem then why any testing or any changes at all? If something is not broken then do not fix it. Unless ofc ZoS sees current Cyro state as a problem.
    5. Herę is the funny thing about those so called solo healers that supposedly are leeching as the biggest change for that kind of player currently is to either reroll i.e. sorc or start running with bow and spam arrows everywhere. Still no need for grouping really.

    And yes, I have stopped playing a healer. About a year ago. This change in fact is benefiting me personally, I just can understand why others may not want it.

    [edited quoted post]
    Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on 17 November 2020 14:13
  • Gardarik
    Gardarik
    ✭✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    Dude, I am playing DPS at all, I was referring to my Dad. And even tho he plays a healer, his Grand Overlord templar hits like a truck and can kill. Not everyone, no build is universal, but stably hold a firm position and capable of killing not careful players. As for me - I have a normal dd build, not PvP god but capable of handling 1v1 and 1vX at times. It is not about the adaptability of the PvP build, it is about enforcing the style of playing. I don't like playing in groups, I don't like guilds bcs most of the time those are useless except for selling stuff.

    The days of early WoW when MMORPG were mostly about socialising are gone with the games becoming more widespread and popular and catering for people with less time to spend on games. I am a PhD student and I have tons of stuff to do outside of gaming and when I come home having an hour to spend on ESO PvP I do not want to think about juxtaposing the efficacy of playing solo vs playing in a group - I have a lot of DEA efficacy analyses for my research throughout the day. I want to play, and play comfortably for myself. Sometimes I do join the groups but can't say it improves my gameplay much. On the contrary - I do not like following the crown from castle to castle spending most time on traveling rather than fighting. I don't want to read witty comments in the group chat for I do not care about them. This is a combat-oriented game, not logistics simulator. Ok, I am a DPS - I can manage playing without a group. Now let's get back to my Dad who for reasons presented previously does not join groups. He can no longer perform his role as a healer outside of group and is forced to play a certain way. As for the customer treatment, this is a bad policy to "force" the customer into using a product in a certain way after having advertised it the other way. If you wonder "why would you play a MMO without willing to group up?" - well, I am a misanthrope and I feel more comfortable playing with people but without any organisation, and I do not care if this is more efficient or not, I simply like it this way. There is a reason why in MOBA premade teams obviously are the ones that smash and participate in tournaments and whatsoever but most people simply play "Quick Match" with random teammates because it is fun. Not everyone cares about efficiency, because a game is not work but leaisure.

    As for minority argument - here I would disagree completely. The majority of the population are pugs, this change is exactly directed at minority that you are talking about. Most people are running out of groups.

    You like the changes - great, good for you. For me it is not good and it is ok to disagree. My point, tho, that this would just drop the playerbase. I will probably play now and then but even running my magnecro with a heal mostly for myself and then running into a 1v2 allied player and finding not being able to save him by healing before getting into the fight ruins the whole logic of what is going on. I do not like that, so probably I would just quit PvP, hence ESO altogether. My Dad will likely follow the example. So would quit some other dudes who already have mentioned their decision in similar threads. It certainly would alleviate the lags - less people = less lags. However, it will also decrease the whole Alliance war PvP experience as campaigns would run stale as people pointed out during the AoE testing when a lot of people simply stopped doing Cyro. If that is ok with you - then I am truly happy that ZOS would improve the gameplay for at least some group of players.

    Still, the biggest concern of mine regarding all those changes is that they would not change the issues with lags because the reasons are different. Even removing layered healing and buffing would be better than this mathematically as it would remove tons of cumulative calculations instead of simply limiting those calculations by imposing group healing restrictions while keeping buff mechanics cumulative at the core. This indicated that ZOS are applying spreadsheet approach instead of actually doing the proper analysis. They are not playing their own game to understand the problems. And certainly they do not care about the hardware - a simple solution of a dedicated server for PvP location only would already improve the stuff greatly, while removing the idiotic Akamai bottlenecking by simply TALKING to Akamai (I've done 3 tickets regarding lags in the past and pin-pointed the reason - ZOS were ignoring it in messages but admitted they could not help it) would surely improve the quality of connections. A few more such poor decisions and the game will turn fully PvP with some atavism PvP system.

    [Edited quoted post]
    Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on 17 November 2020 14:14
  • montjie
    montjie
    ✭✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    1. It is just that it is not settled which group is a monitory and which is not. I mean by what measure? How many actually openly supported the idea or how many left during last 2 weeks (or are still considering it)?
    Solo healers are a minority in cyrodiil. You may have a point if you include the derps running around in cyro expecting to get healed by others. Ill admit that.
    2. Unless you run some 1 vs X build and nobody shows up to defend then running off (or getting yourself killed) is basically everything you can do but that applies also to probably even almost every dps player too.
    Exactomundooo, so why on earth would you have a group build when youre by yourself?? Thats why I cant stand the term solo healer. A solo healer by definition is useless because theres no one else but said healer to heal. You wear a group build, your activities rely solely on groups yet you dont want to group up.
    3. In other games healer is expected to HEAL. Not do any damage but heal. In TESO in general (with an exception of Cyrodiil now) healer is always expected to heal again - regardless of if they are grouped or not. Also the only 3 areas where healers (and most other players too for that matter) are forced to group are trials, dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. All the rest of group content does not have such requirement
    By all means brother, take your healer and hop into a veteran dungeon....by yourself....tell me how it goes. Dont get me wrong I hear what youre saying and I get it. What seems to be the issue here is people dont seem to realize the same character can fulfill different roles. My main can tank endgame content, can dd, if stamina healer was a thing it probably could do that too, it does pretty well in cyrodiil because it uses different builds for each situation. If you want to heal, you need to group up, if you want to play solo you need to get a solo build. You cant have it both. It isnt rocketscience.
    4. If it is not the problem then why any testing or any changes at all? If something is not broken then do not fix it. Unless ofc ZoS sees current Cyro state as a problem.
    If what is? If you mean the cross healing. The cross healing is a problem. Not only for performance sake but also simply for the gaming experience as it enables unhealthy gameplay. If you mean zos seeing current cyro (or honestly cyro the last few years) as a problem. I dont think they do, because it doesnt generate them enough money. But they have to keep up appearances, hence these bandaid solutions
    5. Herę is the funny thing about those so called solo healers that supposedly are leeching as the biggest change for that kind of player currently is to either reroll i.e. sorc or start running with bow and spam arrows everywhere. Still no need for grouping really.
    I dont know man, to me it only says a whole lot about that person if he thinks either being a healbot or a bowtard are the only ways to pvp. Lets get this straight, youre not forced to group up if you want to pvp. Youre forced to group up if you want to heal others.

    And yes, I have stopped playing a healer. About a year ago. This change in fact is benefiting me personally, I just can understand why others may not want it.

    [edited quoted post]
    I too understand why they dont want it. Im pretty sure we all do :D

    - easy farmable saltbucket -
    - retired QQ king of Daggerfall Covenant PC-EU Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/weird dragon name/Ravenwatch zone chat -
  • montjie
    montjie
    ✭✭✭
    Gardarik wrote: »
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    Dude, I am playing DPS at all, I was referring to my Dad. And even tho he plays a healer, his Grand Overlord templar hits like a truck and can kill. Not everyone, no build is universal, but stably hold a firm position and capable of killing not careful players. As for me - I have a normal dd build, not PvP god but capable of handling 1v1 and 1vX at times. It is not about the adaptability of the PvP build, it is about enforcing the style of playing. I don't like playing in groups, I don't like guilds bcs most of the time those are useless except for selling stuff.
    I completely understand, same here

    The days of early WoW when MMORPG were mostly about socialising are gone with the games becoming more widespread and popular and catering for people with less time to spend on games. I am a PhD student and I have tons of stuff to do outside of gaming and when I come home having an hour to spend on ESO PvP I do not want to think about juxtaposing the efficacy of playing solo vs playing in a group - I have a lot of DEA efficacy analyses for my research throughout the day. I want to play, and play comfortably for myself. Sometimes I do join the groups but can't say it improves my gameplay much. On the contrary - I do not like following the crown from castle to castle spending most time on traveling rather than fighting. I don't want to read witty comments in the group chat for I do not care about them. This is a combat-oriented game, not logistics simulator. Ok, I am a DPS - I can manage playing without a group. Now let's get back to my Dad who for reasons presented previously does not join groups. He can no longer perform his role as a healer outside of group and is forced to play a certain way. As for the customer treatment, this is a bad policy to "force" the customer into using a product in a certain way after having advertised it the other way. If you wonder "why would you play a MMO without willing to group up?" - well, I am a misanthrope and I feel more comfortable playing with people but without any organisation, and I do not care if this is more efficient or not, I simply like it this way. There is a reason why in MOBA premade teams obviously are the ones that smash and participate in tournaments and whatsoever but most people simply play "Quick Match" with random teammates because it is fun. Not everyone cares about efficiency, because a game is not work but leaisure.
    TMI IMO but okay

    As for minority argument - here I would disagree completely. The majority of the population are pugs, this change is exactly directed at minority that you are talking about. Most people are running out of groups.
    Because youre a pug doesnt mean you like others having to play the game for you. This change negatively affects out of group healbots and out of group players expecting external heals. We dont know how many of them are there so im judging my conclusions on whos being the loudest and so far they have been the healers.

    You like the changes - great, good for you. For me it is not good and it is ok to disagree. My point, tho, that this would just drop the playerbase. I will probably play now and then but even running my magnecro with a heal mostly for myself and then running into a 1v2 allied player and finding not being able to save him by healing before getting into the fight ruins the whole logic of what is going on. I do not like that, so probably I would just quit PvP, hence ESO altogether. My Dad will likely follow the example. So would quit some other dudes who already have mentioned their decision in similar threads. It certainly would alleviate the lags - less people = less lags. However, it will also decrease the whole Alliance war PvP experience as campaigns would run stale as people pointed out during the AoE testing when a lot of people simply stopped doing Cyro. If that is ok with you - then I am truly happy that ZOS would improve the gameplay for at least some group of players.
    Thats well within your and your dads rights. As you leave im sure there are people that come back because of these changes. I am one of them. Im sorry but how can you not smell the entitlement. "Cater to my needs and my needs alone or ill leave!" Ok fine adios amigo! :D

    Still, the biggest concern of mine regarding all those changes is that they would not change the issues with lags because the reasons are different. Even removing layered healing and buffing would be better than this mathematically as it would remove tons of cumulative calculations instead of simply limiting those calculations by imposing group healing restrictions while keeping buff mechanics cumulative at the core. This indicated that ZOS are applying spreadsheet approach instead of actually doing the proper analysis. They are not playing their own game to understand the problems. And certainly they do not care about the hardware - a simple solution of a dedicated server for PvP location only would already improve the stuff greatly, while removing the idiotic Akamai bottlenecking by simply TALKING to Akamai (I've done 3 tickets regarding lags in the past and pin-pointed the reason - ZOS were ignoring it in messages but admitted they could not help it) would surely improve the quality of connections. A few more such poor decisions and the game will turn fully PvP with some atavism PvP system.
    Other than the bit dramatic end part there I fully agree

    [Edited quoted post]
    I think our disagreement lies in the fact that you think zos HAS to listen to you whereas I dont.

    - easy farmable saltbucket -
    - retired QQ king of Daggerfall Covenant PC-EU Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/weird dragon name/Ravenwatch zone chat -
  • alterfenixeb17_ESO
    alterfenixeb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    1. It is just that it is not settled which group is a monitory and which is not. I mean by what measure? How many actually openly supported the idea or how many left during last 2 weeks (or are still considering it)?
    Solo healers are a minority in cyrodiil. You may have a point if you include the derps running around in cyro expecting to get healed by others. Ill admit that.
    2. Unless you run some 1 vs X build and nobody shows up to defend then running off (or getting yourself killed) is basically everything you can do but that applies also to probably even almost every dps player too.
    Exactomundooo, so why on earth would you have a group build when youre by yourself?? Thats why I cant stand the term solo healer. A solo healer by definition is useless because theres no one else but said healer to heal. You wear a group build, your activities rely solely on groups yet you dont want to group up.
    3. In other games healer is expected to HEAL. Not do any damage but heal. In TESO in general (with an exception of Cyrodiil now) healer is always expected to heal again - regardless of if they are grouped or not. Also the only 3 areas where healers (and most other players too for that matter) are forced to group are trials, dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. All the rest of group content does not have such requirement
    By all means brother, take your healer and hop into a veteran dungeon....by yourself....tell me how it goes. Dont get me wrong I hear what youre saying and I get it. What seems to be the issue here is people dont seem to realize the same character can fulfill different roles. My main can tank endgame content, can dd, if stamina healer was a thing it probably could do that too, it does pretty well in cyrodiil because it uses different builds for each situation. If you want to heal, you need to group up, if you want to play solo you need to get a solo build. You cant have it both. It isnt rocketscience.
    4. If it is not the problem then why any testing or any changes at all? If something is not broken then do not fix it. Unless ofc ZoS sees current Cyro state as a problem.
    If what is? If you mean the cross healing. The cross healing is a problem. Not only for performance sake but also simply for the gaming experience as it enables unhealthy gameplay. If you mean zos seeing current cyro (or honestly cyro the last few years) as a problem. I dont think they do, because it doesnt generate them enough money. But they have to keep up appearances, hence these bandaid solutions
    5. Herę is the funny thing about those so called solo healers that supposedly are leeching as the biggest change for that kind of player currently is to either reroll i.e. sorc or start running with bow and spam arrows everywhere. Still no need for grouping really.
    I dont know man, to me it only says a whole lot about that person if he thinks either being a healbot or a bowtard are the only ways to pvp. Lets get this straight, youre not forced to group up if you want to pvp. Youre forced to group up if you want to heal others.

    And yes, I have stopped playing a healer. About a year ago. This change in fact is benefiting me personally, I just can understand why others may not want it.

    [edited quoted post]
    I too understand why they dont want it. Im pretty sure we all do :D
    I think you may be missing the point here really. Those dps you are talking about will either leave pissed or reroll something more resilient. This change, as you have noticed, is aimed at more people than just haters that do not group. Will those ungrouped players change because of that? No, they will either leave or stick to their current play style, just with changed builds. Priority also will change since so far they may have even cared if they are able (even with some healer's help) kill their target or not. Now play style is already changing (there are already people playing that which can be noticed) to approach: survive and hit as many targets as possible while surrounded by group. Cross healing here just does not matter in this case that much since chances of being hit that hard are basically minimal anyway. Which from that pov makes this change just pointless as it will not in the end resolve anything while it just indeed pissed some players that very often are indeed team players tending to group up with others (yes, even formally to have a crown to follow).
  • renne
    renne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.

    This doesn't even address the "needs of the many" though. ZoS has LITERALLY stated that it doesn't make a significant difference to the server calculations and that they're only doing it because THEY "liked the behavioural changes". If it'd actually made a significant difference and they stated as such, sure, people would still complain but more people would accept it.

    Instead we get this nebulous "behavioural changes" excuse for it. What behavioural changes? We don't know, ZoS hasn't bothered to elaborate.

    But we do know for sure that the change hasn't been made to make the performance of the game better.
  • HanStolo
    HanStolo
    ✭✭✭
    After playing last night, I like the change. Boreballs were actually killable and the lag, although present, was nowhere near as bad. They didn't seem overly nerfed, I saw a few make some good stances against outnumbering enemies. You were actually able to see member of the boreballs take damage, cc's worked and people died in what felt like legit circumstances as opposed to watching 24 people tank 60 and a ton of siege for an hour and never see their hp bar move.
  • montjie
    montjie
    ✭✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    1. It is just that it is not settled which group is a monitory and which is not. I mean by what measure? How many actually openly supported the idea or how many left during last 2 weeks (or are still considering it)?
    Solo healers are a minority in cyrodiil. You may have a point if you include the derps running around in cyro expecting to get healed by others. Ill admit that.
    2. Unless you run some 1 vs X build and nobody shows up to defend then running off (or getting yourself killed) is basically everything you can do but that applies also to probably even almost every dps player too.
    Exactomundooo, so why on earth would you have a group build when youre by yourself?? Thats why I cant stand the term solo healer. A solo healer by definition is useless because theres no one else but said healer to heal. You wear a group build, your activities rely solely on groups yet you dont want to group up.
    3. In other games healer is expected to HEAL. Not do any damage but heal. In TESO in general (with an exception of Cyrodiil now) healer is always expected to heal again - regardless of if they are grouped or not. Also the only 3 areas where healers (and most other players too for that matter) are forced to group are trials, dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. All the rest of group content does not have such requirement
    By all means brother, take your healer and hop into a veteran dungeon....by yourself....tell me how it goes. Dont get me wrong I hear what youre saying and I get it. What seems to be the issue here is people dont seem to realize the same character can fulfill different roles. My main can tank endgame content, can dd, if stamina healer was a thing it probably could do that too, it does pretty well in cyrodiil because it uses different builds for each situation. If you want to heal, you need to group up, if you want to play solo you need to get a solo build. You cant have it both. It isnt rocketscience.
    4. If it is not the problem then why any testing or any changes at all? If something is not broken then do not fix it. Unless ofc ZoS sees current Cyro state as a problem.
    If what is? If you mean the cross healing. The cross healing is a problem. Not only for performance sake but also simply for the gaming experience as it enables unhealthy gameplay. If you mean zos seeing current cyro (or honestly cyro the last few years) as a problem. I dont think they do, because it doesnt generate them enough money. But they have to keep up appearances, hence these bandaid solutions
    5. Herę is the funny thing about those so called solo healers that supposedly are leeching as the biggest change for that kind of player currently is to either reroll i.e. sorc or start running with bow and spam arrows everywhere. Still no need for grouping really.
    I dont know man, to me it only says a whole lot about that person if he thinks either being a healbot or a bowtard are the only ways to pvp. Lets get this straight, youre not forced to group up if you want to pvp. Youre forced to group up if you want to heal others.

    And yes, I have stopped playing a healer. About a year ago. This change in fact is benefiting me personally, I just can understand why others may not want it.

    [edited quoted post]
    I too understand why they dont want it. Im pretty sure we all do :D
    I think you may be missing the point here really. Those dps you are talking about will either leave pissed or reroll something more resilient. This change, as you have noticed, is aimed at more people than just haters that do not group. Will those ungrouped players change because of that? No, they will either leave or stick to their current play style, just with changed builds. Priority also will change since so far they may have even cared if they are able (even with some healer's help) kill their target or not. Now play style is already changing (there are already people playing that which can be noticed) to approach: survive and hit as many targets as possible while surrounded by group. Cross healing here just does not matter in this case that much since chances of being hit that hard are basically minimal anyway. Which from that pov makes this change just pointless as it will not in the end resolve anything while it just indeed pissed some players that very often are indeed team players tending to group up with others (yes, even formally to have a crown to follow).
    OR they will slot their own heals. Again its like theres a belief only dedicated healers are able to heal in this game I dont get it.
    [snip] You dont know how theyll react because theyve never been in a situation [snip] Some people might surprise you.
    renne wrote: »
    montjie wrote: »
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.

    This doesn't even address the "needs of the many" though. ZoS has LITERALLY stated that it doesn't make a significant difference to the server calculations and that they're only doing it because THEY "liked the behavioural changes". If it'd actually made a significant difference and they stated as such, sure, people would still complain but more people would accept it.

    Instead we get this nebulous "behavioural changes" excuse for it. What behavioural changes? We don't know, ZoS hasn't bothered to elaborate.

    But we do know for sure that the change hasn't been made to make the performance of the game better.
    Hmmmm
    [snip]

    I mean you dont have to go far, theres even a thread on this forum where people said the game ran better for them. Check on twitch and you can find people here nd there talking about how the changes seemed to be positive for the performance.

    [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Lunar on 18 November 2020 14:25
    - easy farmable saltbucket -
    - retired QQ king of Daggerfall Covenant PC-EU Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/weird dragon name/Ravenwatch zone chat -
  • renne
    renne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    montjie wrote: »
    Hmmmm
    I guess everyone claiming theyve experienced better performance since the patch are a bunch of liars then because zos said that cant be possible and zos never is wrong.
    Do you always believe what zos says or are you just cherrypicking the things that fit your narrative?

    I mean you dont have to go far, theres even a thread on this forum where people said the game ran better for them. Check on twitch and you can find people here nd there talking about how the changes seemed to be positive for the performance.

    But nah thats all a farce because momma zos said otherwise.

    This is a weirdly combative response to someone merely pointing out what ZoS stated it wasn't done for performance reasons. I never said or did any of the things you're claiming, but go off, I guess.
  • Gardarik
    Gardarik
    ✭✭✭
    Surely, ZOS do not have to cater to my needs. No company has to. They offer a product, they advertise it in a certain way, customers evaluate the pros&cons and decide whether they need it or not. Everyone's happy, capitalism.

    Throughout the product use the product changes dramatically and does not appeal to the customers anymore. Also normal, some customers just leave.

    I never really wanted to sound entitled like "cater to my needs". Maybe, indeed I got overdramatic. However, I did get dramatic not even because of the changes of healing but because of my previous experience of 3 tickets regarding lags that, surprisingly, did not resolve anything although it was serverside. The support is quite useless and not technically skilled to even review the results of network tests. Ofc lagging in multiplayer game is worst.

    Now they try to fix it. Commendable. But instead of actually investing resources in hardware which certainly would fix the stuff or sorting out their networking with bottlenecking they are finding the scapegoats in pug healers that are not even that many to begin with. Outstanding move meme should be inserted here. Not multi-layer buff fix (i doubt you can have multiple renewal in WoW), no dedicated server for Cyro, no sorting out issues with Akamai - no, we need to reduce the group size and forbid the healing. Eureka!

    Certainly, they are in the right to do so, it is their game. You are right, ofc, and quite eloquent too, presenting arguments such as TMI. Cool stuff, much smart. Still, for me the situation where I just wander around friendly resource being taken by a group of two and then I see a friendly target fighting them and not being able to heal him before jumping in to level the field looks very immersive, logical, and intuitive both for me and a newcomer to Cyro. Well done indeed.

    I can't but apply this coursing on the forum joke to my own experience of military service. I relocate to an Eastern trench during the battle, escorting a field medic. We see a soldier with a gun wound to his shoulder, unable to hold the rifle and protect himself while too tough to relocate. He says: "Hey, serge, can you patch me up?" And the medic would be: "Sorry, bro, your insignia indicate you are of a different company. My meds won't work on ya".
  • Dunning_Kruger
    Dunning_Kruger
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    Anytime I see someone cry about play as I want play style it makes me realize this is one of the direct nerfs to zergs.

    There have been so many nerfs to 1vX and small scale that I kind of forgot how many builds and play styles I have had to change over the years.

    I don’t get to play how I want anymore because the way I want to play was over performing (seventh/fury original blood spawn, resolving VIGOR STACKED!!!).

    Just like how overperforming smart heals are in a mindless faction stack.

    So looks like you need to make a new build, or build a group. Accept your solo heal role overperformed for how easy it was and move on like the rest of the community has to when it’s adjusted.


    ____________________________________
    A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>

    For the Queen bby
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.
    [DC/NA]
  • SgtNuttzmeg
    SgtNuttzmeg
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    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.
    Legions of Mordor Core

    Cold0neFTBs
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.

    Why does that matter? They're all your enemies, you fight them all, but you don't want them to work together? That makes no sense.
    [DC/NA]
  • SgtNuttzmeg
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.

    Why does that matter? They're all your enemies, you fight them all, but you don't want them to work together? That makes no sense.

    It's really bad for performance. It creates a space that encourages lazy teamwork instead of proactive and skillful teamwork. Zergs are also really strong. Prior this change the only way you could defeat a faction stack was with your own faction stack or a ballgroup.

    It is also a terrible design feature for a game to have. It probably should never have made it into the game to begin with.
    Legions of Mordor Core

    Cold0neFTBs
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.

    Why does that matter? They're all your enemies, you fight them all, but you don't want them to work together? That makes no sense.

    It's really bad for performance. It creates a space that encourages lazy teamwork instead of proactive and skillful teamwork. Zergs are also really strong. Prior this change the only way you could defeat a faction stack was with your own faction stack or a ballgroup.

    It is also a terrible design feature for a game to have. It probably should never have made it into the game to begin with.

    Is it really bad for performance whether we're firing damage or heals? ZOS kind of indicated the change wouldn't help performance but they were doing it anyway. There's a ton of players in the same virtual space, I have to give credit to ZOS for having such an ambitious scale with Cyrodiil, their giant open world sandboxy war sim thing with Elder Scrolls lore painted on top of it hooked me when the PVE experience just seemed boring. Here's a screenshot from just after release.
    NZlIXXI.jpg
    Perhaps a group only battleground style Cyrodiil could be made to fully embrace what I see a lot of players wanting. More of a guild versus guild thing, rather than faction based. Because what they're turning Cyrodiil into seems like the opposite of what I was originally interested in. The segregation of players into groups is a huge setback for anyone looking to enjoy an open world feeling. I could maybe accept this type of a change to the product I bought into, if there was a noticeable performance gain. But I tried playing a bit during the tests, and none of them seemed any better.

    I just don't think we're going to get good performance in Cyrodiil, and I have always accepted that. I never understood how a lighting patch could cause such a decline in Cyrodiil performance, but then I read a post on here about how the lighting patch coincided with an increase in server client checks, to prevent hacking and such. It all made sense, zos' hands are tied, they can't increase performance to release day status without opening it up to hacking, I'm not saying this excuses performance, but it manages my expectations. It's one of those 'This is why we can't have nice things' situations in life, where we could have triple the players and better performance, if we all agreed nobody would hack and give themselves god mode and fly around the map dropping ultis on everyone.

    Lazy teamwork in my space? I love it. I value having that open world experience with good and bad players, competent and incompetent groups, random encounters that could spark friendships lasting a lifetime. Ya never know what is going to happened in a place like that. On the other side of the coin, we could enforce harsh grouping standards, and punish people into submitting to convention. You would undoubtedly find a more consistent level of play with a more rigid group focused Cyrodiil, there would be no room for bad groups to occupy, no room for leeches & underhanded players to run rampant. Players would fall into line and find groups, weaker players would be trained, better players would lead their own or be drafted by better teams, I mean guilds. But that's not what I want, that's not what was sold to me. I miss the days where giant onscreen messages went out to all players when a scroll was taken, you would get all sorts of PVE and PVPers racing into Cyrodiil to preserve their buffs. It was the active warzone existing in Tamriel, it felt accessible, harsh but enjoyable, and there was a new experience to be had playing it. Now it feels like they're turning it into an MLG Call of Duty pro gamer competitive PVP group on group combat zone, with special rules and rewards if you worship the almighty Chevron and wear it above your heads.

    Zergs are really strong aren't they. Is that not supposed to be? You have a population of soldiers in a warzone, if you gather most of them together in a large formation, shouldn't that be really strong? Nothing about a Cyrodiil zergs strength makes it invulnerable to being compromised. I have been in many a DC zerg that has been broken up by skilled enemy players doing the right things at the right times. But when a zerg is broken up it's quickly followed up by a zerg defending a keep, otherwise the breaking up zerg simply respawns and reforms. Cyrodiil is entirely about land ownership, wiping a zerg gains nothing for the faction if you can't capitalize on that vulnerability and take land.

    I get it. You want weaker opponents to face harsher consequences. And you want a reward for social co-operation. I can't really disagree with those two motivations, I just disagree with the implementation, and how it has negative effected my interest in playing the game any further.
    [DC/NA]
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.

    Why does that matter? They're all your enemies, you fight them all, but you don't want them to work together? That makes no sense.

    It doesn't make sense in a faction-based PVP mode where your faction is your group and groups form up organically all the time.

    It does make sense if you want to forcefully lower the power level of players running alongside other groups. Once you no longer pick up cross-heals from other groups, you are forced to spend more of your own resources on survival and less on throwing out AOE heals and damage. This seems to be ZOS' goal.

    It hurts ball groups who zerged a little bit, but not that much because the healing from the ball group's own healers far outweighs the cross-heals they got from other players around them. It hurts the non-grouped players around the ball group mostly, because the main source of cross-healing was the ball group who's running dedicated healers.


    Problem is, they didn't account for ball groups who farmed on their own with very minimal cross-healing outside of their group. The entirely predictable result is that these ball groups stayed strong while their opponents got weaker.

    Once we talk about small scale fights, ZOS didn't account for the sort of informal grouping that happens all the time with less than 12 players.
    Edited by VaranisArano on 20 November 2020 17:32
  • Soul_Demon
    Soul_Demon
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    montjie wrote: »
    montjie wrote: »
    Gardarik wrote: »
    Terrible change as it enforces certain gameplay upon people and creates understanding walls for newbies.

    Firstly, as it has been put above already, imagine being a newcomer to ESO interested in PvP. You level up healer because, say, you played a priest in WoW and like supporting. You join Cyro looking for action, teleport to keep, try to heal, and... nothing. It will take time to figure out you have to be in group to heal. Quite a discouragement for some people. If those have no interest in PvE, the game basically loses population.

    Secondly, there are tons of reasons why healers or anyone else does not play in groups: being shy, just trying to casually relax after work for a short time without willing to stick to some group, willing to be flexible and choosing objectives, etc, etc. This change takes away flexibility and makes the ad of ESO "play the way you want" a hypocritical one.

    Thirdly, there are many other reasons why there were lags. For two years already people have been complaining about Akamai bottlenecking (for NA especially), poor network packets routing (when Ausies get their packets routed to Asia and only then to US), etc. Were those addressed? Nope. Addressing this in tickets is similarly useless.

    To illustrate the first two points - I play with my Dad who started playing on NA with me because I played here. He doesn't speak English well to consider joining group or communicating. He just plays an hour or two after job as his templar healer and seeks action here and there and certainly would not enjoy sticking to group for PvD or endless galloping over the map instead of fighting. This change literally kills the game for him because he plays only PvP. And there are many casuals like him. Will nerfing the game for these people improve performance? Surprisingly - yes, because they would simply leave, decreasing the PvP population.

    Very and very sad. Real technical issues are ignored, terrible changes are implemented, only lootboxes get development while PvP is generally ignored.

    Here we go again.

    Let me start of with saying you do make a great point in the first part. Zos is gonna have to find a way to make it known to people how the new healing works in cyro. A lot of casuals dont bother forum unless they wanna complain, they dont bother patch notes etc so I agree with you on that one. Unless zos announces these new changes well this can and probably will be a highly confusing and frustrating part of cyrodiil for new(er)/casual players.

    Having said that, [snip]
    1. Never should something be implemented to cater to a minority, especially if the needs of the many outweighs the wants of that few.
    2. Are you really pvping if ALL you want to/can do is just heal? What if no one of your faction is there and the enemy is sieging a keep. What is your course of action then? Heal the guards? Find a cozy corner to stealth in? Its funny to me how you guys claim to be so passionate about pvp but never seem to even consider switching to an actual pvp build :/ Makes me think most just heal because it enables you to participate at the lowest possible level from relative safety. I could be wrong though
    3. Stop always using the "play as you want" argument when you cant get your way. Youre free to play as you want I guess yeah, but in order to effectively play the game youre forced to play by a specific set of rules. This applies for pve content as it does for pvp. You guys just wanna live, work and die on easy street dont you. The cyro casual running 7 divines wasnt a meme for nothing. Yall wanted to play how you wanted and got absolutely demolished. Instead of learning and adapting what actually happened? The casual cried and smothering momma zos came in full cater mode and gave everyone free crit resist because god forbid one has to actually learn how the game works.
    4. I again agree with you on the technical side of things. Im pretty sure that if zos considered the current state of cyro as a priority problem, if they even consider it a problem at all that is, theyd found a proper fix for it already. You cant tell me a company this big is this incompetent. So I dont know what theyre doing over there. Honestly I just dont believe they want to spend to money so were stuck with these types of improvements. But improvements none the less (according to console testimonials) I do hope zos doesnt stop here and uses these changes as stepping stones to hopefully eventually come up with a more suitable solution.
    5. So yeah it sucks you cant play how you used to be able to play. But guess what. That has been basically patch after patch for the rest of us. You cant always get everything you want buddy

    1. It is just that it is not settled which group is a monitory and which is not. I mean by what measure? How many actually openly supported the idea or how many left during last 2 weeks (or are still considering it)?
    Solo healers are a minority in cyrodiil. You may have a point if you include the derps running around in cyro expecting to get healed by others. Ill admit that.
    2. Unless you run some 1 vs X build and nobody shows up to defend then running off (or getting yourself killed) is basically everything you can do but that applies also to probably even almost every dps player too.
    Exactomundooo, so why on earth would you have a group build when youre by yourself?? Thats why I cant stand the term solo healer. A solo healer by definition is useless because theres no one else but said healer to heal. You wear a group build, your activities rely solely on groups yet you dont want to group up.
    3. In other games healer is expected to HEAL. Not do any damage but heal. In TESO in general (with an exception of Cyrodiil now) healer is always expected to heal again - regardless of if they are grouped or not. Also the only 3 areas where healers (and most other players too for that matter) are forced to group are trials, dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. All the rest of group content does not have such requirement
    By all means brother, take your healer and hop into a veteran dungeon....by yourself....tell me how it goes. Dont get me wrong I hear what youre saying and I get it. What seems to be the issue here is people dont seem to realize the same character can fulfill different roles. My main can tank endgame content, can dd, if stamina healer was a thing it probably could do that too, it does pretty well in cyrodiil because it uses different builds for each situation. If you want to heal, you need to group up, if you want to play solo you need to get a solo build. You cant have it both. It isnt rocketscience.
    4. If it is not the problem then why any testing or any changes at all? If something is not broken then do not fix it. Unless ofc ZoS sees current Cyro state as a problem.
    If what is? If you mean the cross healing. The cross healing is a problem. Not only for performance sake but also simply for the gaming experience as it enables unhealthy gameplay. If you mean zos seeing current cyro (or honestly cyro the last few years) as a problem. I dont think they do, because it doesnt generate them enough money. But they have to keep up appearances, hence these bandaid solutions
    5. Herę is the funny thing about those so called solo healers that supposedly are leeching as the biggest change for that kind of player currently is to either reroll i.e. sorc or start running with bow and spam arrows everywhere. Still no need for grouping really.
    I dont know man, to me it only says a whole lot about that person if he thinks either being a healbot or a bowtard are the only ways to pvp. Lets get this straight, youre not forced to group up if you want to pvp. Youre forced to group up if you want to heal others.

    And yes, I have stopped playing a healer. About a year ago. This change in fact is benefiting me personally, I just can understand why others may not want it.

    [edited quoted post]
    I too understand why they dont want it. Im pretty sure we all do :D

    Its a pretty simple concept to flip and ask yourself if it sounds logical at all. Change DPS so that if you are not in a group you cant DPS at all except yourself. Ask yourself if that makes any sense at all when you apply the same standard to a player who actually enjoys playing a healer and then ask if Templars are created with leanings overly reliant on healing others to balance the class and are handicapped with limited DPS options along with passives- the answer is pretty obvious unless you are simply refusing to see the counterpoints they make regarding healing in cyro limits being imposed.

    Its illogical, and pretty tough to explain how that would not threaten how DPS players like to play if you claimed "you dont have to stop DPS or group, just DPS yourself and its all good"......
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The main reason why its a good thing is that people were constantly asking for ball group nerfs and rejoicing that the tests would 'remove ball groups' only to have them buffed by the resultant changes :trollface:
    @Solar_Breeze
    NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
    EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)
  • FENGRUSH
    FENGRUSH
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    The main reason why its a good thing is that people were constantly asking for ball group nerfs and rejoicing that the tests would 'remove ball groups' only to have them buffed by the resultant changes :trollface:

    I don't think anyone was under the impression those changes would nerf ball groups. I've constantly been echoing why it wouldn't do anything but empower them.

    Group play isnt bad. Some of the mechanics they've cemented into their survival and left untouched makes them operate with too much safety and ease though.
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    The main reason why its a good thing is that people were constantly asking for ball group nerfs and rejoicing that the tests would 'remove ball groups' only to have them buffed by the resultant changes :trollface:

    I don't think anyone was under the impression those changes would nerf ball groups. I've constantly been echoing why it wouldn't do anything but empower them.

    Group play isnt bad. Some of the mechanics they've cemented into their survival and left untouched makes them operate with too much safety and ease though.

    I agree, I actually enjoyed most of the tests, it was a good chance to change up builds and group comps from what's become quite a stagnated meta for the past few years but equally i'm not going to morn the loss of 24m groups and cross healing frontline zergs + those 24m groups stacking on top of them (even if its now swapped to 3 different 12m groups on top of their faction stack instead).
    Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on 20 November 2020 20:37
    @Solar_Breeze
    NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
    EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)
  • renne
    renne
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    It's really bad for performance. It creates a space that encourages lazy teamwork instead of proactive and skillful teamwork. Zergs are also really strong. Prior this change the only way you could defeat a faction stack was with your own faction stack or a ballgroup.

    It is also a terrible design feature for a game to have. It probably should never have made it into the game to begin with.

    Except a lot of the complaints I now see are that faction stacks and ball groups are worse than ever so... it didn't change a anything for the positive. You still need a faction stack or a ballgroup to defeat a faction stack.
  • SgtNuttzmeg
    SgtNuttzmeg
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    I'd like to clarify that I believe it really does suck that we are losing a set of playstyles that used to be fairly common. For the entirety of the time I have been PVPing I have been feeling like I have been standing on an Iceberg that was slowly melting and slowly growing smaller and smaller. The reality of the situation is that there are certain things that ZOS can do to help fix the performance issues and alot of these things come down to fundamental flaws in the way they originally designed the game. They worked in the past because of whatever level of spaghetti code and server side calculations or whatever issue we have now didn't exist back than. But these are still flaws in the model that existed before now. They still are things that shouldn't have been in the game. It is good that they were changed, the change should have been implemented years before now.

    The fact that ball groups right now are preforming so well really speaks to how powerful they are. Especially since we were the ones hit hardest by the recent nerfing to buffs/debuffs. I suspect there will be a lot more performance based mechanic changes in the future. As long as performance improves and there is still a place for sweaty and non-sweaty group play in PVP I am happy.
    Legions of Mordor Core

    Cold0neFTBs
  • Soul_Demon
    Soul_Demon
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    The main reason why its a good thing is that people were constantly asking for ball group nerfs and rejoicing that the tests would 'remove ball groups' only to have them buffed by the resultant changes :trollface:

    I don't think anyone was under the impression those changes would nerf ball groups. I've constantly been echoing why it wouldn't do anything but empower them.

    Group play isnt bad. Some of the mechanics they've cemented into their survival and left untouched makes them operate with too much safety and ease though.

    So, are you saying that when they announced AOE's and HOT's would be on three second cooldown for a test, limiting spamming skills on a group of players- you did not think that would impact ball groups? Or just saying you knew that was never the goal of the testing?
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Imagine bringing more than 12
    badmojo wrote: »
    Why is the answer to over performing smart heals a nerf to zergs? Are those same heals not over performing in groups as well? Why aren't THEY nerfed? PVE? I just don't understand this idea that because healing is so easy in ESO, let's reserve that easy and powerful tool for groups only.

    Here's a question, how do you know the healers and their zerglings weren't already grouped up? Your perception was that it's all just a mass of solo players "playing the way they want", when it was probably a mix of groups and solo players intermingling. Not every group stacks on crown.

    The problem comes from cross healing. That is what they are eliminating. It doesn't matter if healers group up. What matters is that a healer in one group can't heal somebody in a different group.

    Why does that matter? They're all your enemies, you fight them all, but you don't want them to work together? That makes no sense.

    It's really bad for performance. It creates a space that encourages lazy teamwork instead of proactive and skillful teamwork. Zergs are also really strong. Prior this change the only way you could defeat a faction stack was with your own faction stack or a ballgroup.

    It is also a terrible design feature for a game to have. It probably should never have made it into the game to begin with.

    You keep saying that despite ZOS's own admission that the entire battery of tests, which did more than just limit heals to group only, they put in freaking cooldowns that prevented people from using high calculation abilities, did not have a significant impact.

    And ZOS is 1000% correct in that assessment. I played no CP, which already reduces calculations far more than nullifying cross heals will ever do and performance sucked during these tests.

    I just logged off at 9:00 because the performance was so freaking terrible I could not cast a single skill before getting run over by a certain EP Puglord who shall not be named that brought his 70 to Alessia. Nothing has changed except the game sucks even more than it did 2 weeks ago.

    Performance still sucks.
    Faction stacks are still here and they still suck.
    Now ZOS has made it suck more because unless I'm grouped, I get screwed by the rules or can;t even use my abilities if I'm a healer.

    These changes have sucked. Still suck. And will continue to suck.
    Edited by Joy_Division on 21 November 2020 02:56
  • xshatox
    xshatox
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    You can still get 5 rapids at the same time now. Wonderfull time to ballzerg and pug zerg up now. If you only play 1 or less hours a day and dont have time to group prepare your ass to get *** up or be all powerfull player by stacking damage, heal, mitigation, resource regeneration in 1.
  • Starshadw
    Starshadw
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    As someone who mains a templar healer and who didn't exploit, min-max or run in massive ball groups that knew they were creating lag yet refused to change their behavior, etc., I find the current conditions in Cyrodiil incredibly disheartening and disappointing.

    While I belong to a PvP guild and do a lot of PvPing in groups, there were times when my guild didn't have a group running, and I enjoyed just being able to hop into Cyrodiil and contribute simply by being able to heal others during keep defenses, etc.

    Not being able to do that? I find myself spending less and less time PvPing overall.

    I'm just so tired of getting punished mechanically in this game for the crappy behavior of others, over and over.
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