Why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a good change

SgtNuttzmeg

Before I delve into this I will state that currently I main a support role. I typically play with a group but every now and then I do some zerg surfing with this build.

Healers in my opinion are undervalued in pvp. This might seem weird but with the way battlespirit curves healing and the fact that alot of DD builds are fairly selfish average players typically do not receive that much support or healing from allies. What this does is it creates a pvp experience in which people are kinda left on their own. Normally this is fine but when you consider how prevalent proc sets are, it is really easy to get "free" damage. This damage creates a game state in which players struggle to out heal the most basic dots. This becomes even more prevalent in zergs or faction stacks.

When players zerg they get a lot of passive healing and buff. This helps to make squisher DDs more viable but as the same time it reduces the value a healer can bring to a group because these players already have these buffs and they are already getting healing. So these groups can typically make it by without a healer or with not very many healers but once you start looking at self contained groups. The more optimized ball groups, the ones that farm the tops of keeps without the aid of ambient healing from zergs, you will see most groups run several healers. Some will even run with up to a third or more of their raid comp comprised of healers. As groups start to notice the lack of ambient healing during these big fights, their will be a big push to get more healers in your group.

Now not every group will want to run a more optimized setup, not every group will require a specific number of healers but as people start to die quicker and people start to notice the lack of healing in key moments they will snag you up.

Xuhora

why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a bad change

it forces a change to a viable playstyle which has been arround since game released. not every support has to be in a group to feel "needed", some of us enjoy running arround on our own, without blindly following a crown (which not allways is a good leader).

it leads to situations, where a healer is literally useless, even if he is grouped up. for example in a busy defending szenario, where some of the group die, the others are on a wall trying to defend against the ballgroup which got inside the first gate and 2 are like 10 kilometers away because they dont have rapids anymore to catch up. so I as healer stand there, nothing in range to heal, while i have to watch my fellow alliance defender dying left and right of me without beeing able to do anything

it does NOT change anything in the current performance of cyrodill as stated by the devs themselfs. and i think that it buffs organized ballgroups, since they dont feel the change as they were running the optimal healer/support roles anyways, while it even easier for the to run over 3 or 4 groups of pugs, because for pugs crosshealing is essential.

ThePedge

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

No longer can they just spam AoE heals on a opened keep entrance, irrespective of how many alliance members have gone in or died. They got AP for healing anyone, and they could sit safety outside the keep and heal EVERY alliance member that ran through the oil and meatbagged gate.

Now you're going to have to react, and follow the 11 other members of your group into the keep and make sure those members stay alive, rather than just freelance healing an entire zerg.

badmojo

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

No longer can they just spam AoE heals on a opened keep entrance, irrespective of how many alliance members have gone in or died. They got AP for healing anyone, and they could sit safety outside the keep and heal EVERY alliance member that ran through the oil and meatbagged gate.

Now you're going to have to react, and follow the 11 other members of your group into the keep and make sure those members stay alive, rather than just freelance healing an entire zerg.

The reality is that the AP from simply healing is very minimal. I doubt you would see many complaints from healers if the change was to remove AP from healing. I am not saying nobody cares about free AP from healing zergs, but its not the majority of regular players. The amount of AP gained simply for being a warm body inside the zone when keeps are taken or defended is so much more than anything gained from healing.

How many players throw out light attacks from the rear of a zerg just so they get included in the kill tick? Should we remove all damage from players not grouped with the main damage dealer? I dont think so.

Sanct16

I think you guys are overvaluing crossheals for pugs. To survive a ballgroup you have to avoid the damage, and not hope that you get healed after you take a 15k grave robber to the face.

PeterUnlustig

As someone who played healer alot in pvp, i really like this changes. As said here before, healers cant just afk heal in the back anymore or hide behind zergs. While this might be inconvenient at first it really helps people to improve at their role.

Every pvper out there will agree with this: good Healers are the strongest builds for any group fight in PVP
While healers in cp are not extremly overpowered, a strong healer in non-cp PVP can carry an entire group through every fight.

So to the healers in pvp i say, maybe its time to step up your game!

badmojo

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As someone who played healer alot in pvp, i really like this changes. As said here before, healers cant just afk heal in the back anymore or hide behind zergs. While this might be inconvenient at first it really helps people to improve at their role.

Every pvper out there will agree with this: good Healers are the strongest builds for any group fight in PVP
While healers in cp are not extremly overpowered, a strong healer in non-cp PVP can carry an entire group through every fight.

So to the healers in pvp i say, maybe its time to step up your game!

Being ungrouped does not prevent a healer from being at the top of their game and being a valuable asset to the alliance.

Your comments remind me of another comment that said something like "dont you want to feel appriciated by your group, you cant get that appriciation from random zerg members". It seemed to lack perspective and genralized about groups. While it is true that groups can show great appriciation for a good healer, they can also project their failures onto that healer. At the same time random zerg members can appriciate your healing despite not always saying it you directly. Its the same with your comments implying ungrouped healers are always going to be cowardly players hiding in the numbers, throwing 'afk heals' only to collect the points, never being pushed to improve. You are undoubtedly correct in some cases, but that generalization shows your bias against being ungrouped. Do you suddenly suck at healing when your group disbands for the night? You lost the chevron after all, was that the only thing that makes you a good healer?

Daffen

If you really like healing and love keeping your teammates alive i would reccomend finding a guild that does pvp raids as a ballgroup. It is a great way to improve and get new friends and have fun.

Sure you may think we are bad players and dont require any skill to do it successfully, but it actually requires alot of coordination, a good leader, flexibility, and skill. Our raid consist only of experienced players that know how to 1vX multiple players.

In our setup we usually run 2-3 healers in a 12-man group along with support roles for rapids, cleanse and stuns. The rest run full damage setups, usually a nightblade with proxy det, and a magden for major breach.

Running in these raid will make you a way better healer than you are when you only heal zergs. You are responsible to keep 11 other players alive while we move around fast and taking damage from 20+ enemy players. The role of the healers is especially important when we turn around to wipe the big group behind us as we will be taking tons of damage. Healers dont spam mutagen in raids even if it looks like it. Sure we use mutagen alot but that is because we need to use it 2-3 times every 10 seconds or rotate mutagens between skills. Its important to also keep all the buffs up like orbs, aoe heal infront and our own buffs. This is the reason why ballgroups seem so tanky, all damage dealers run full damage setups but we have 30k hp so we dont get bursted down fast, this way the healers are able to heal them up before they die. With all the HoTs healers have it seems like when you attack us, our healthbar doesnt move even if you get a good burst in. If i stood still with my healer in pvp im able to heal for 10k every second, this changes when you are moving of course.

Many dont like the idea of beeing told what to use on their healer, but that is simply because we want to make the best out of the entire group, min-maxing. You dont want a healer running torugs pact and pariah because they do nothing for the group. Healers are there to buff up your teammates and keep them alive.

Ballgroups rarely wipe, we only die when we do fatal mistakes or overrun by 50 people, we arent unkillable. However against 20 players spamming single-target abilities it will be hard to take us down. If you have ever seen 2 ballgroups go against eachother then you know how fast those fights end, usually in about 2-3 seconds into fighting. The reason is because we are both full aoe and burst, whoever bursts the other one first, wins. Not entirely like that but its a simple explanation.

Heres a nice compilation of clips from almost a year ago in healer PoV including multiple ballgroups fights:
0:48
4:42
6:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYEf7nXYTaA

Xuhora

my prime argument is not the AP gains from zergsurfing, its not that i have to step up my game, its not that i am more valuable because i can now carry a 12 man group

it is the following: this change leads to players i can not interact with! i have to stand besides them and watch them die, without beeing able to do ANYTHING. Sure a DD role is not afflicted by that, because his primary interaction (dealing dmg to enemies) is allways possible. imagine the outcry if there would be certain groups that are flagged non-hostile for other DDs because ZOS likes the behavioral changes of it.

for me this is at its core a wrong decision in an MMO with a large scale battlefield. i hope you get my point and can now stop saying APleecher and Zergsurfer and what not

SgtNuttzmeg

Xuhora wrote: »

why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a bad change

it forces a change to a viable playstyle which has been arround since game released. not every support has to be in a group to feel "needed", some of us enjoy running arround on our own, without blindly following a crown (which not allways is a good leader).

it leads to situations, where a healer is literally useless, even if he is grouped up. for example in a busy defending szenario, where some of the group die, the others are on a wall trying to defend against the ballgroup which got inside the first gate and 2 are like 10 kilometers away because they dont have rapids anymore to catch up. so I as healer stand there, nothing in range to heal, while i have to watch my fellow alliance defender dying left and right of me without beeing able to do anything

it does NOT change anything in the current performance of cyrodill as stated by the devs themselfs. and i think that it buffs organized ballgroups, since they dont feel the change as they were running the optimal healer/support roles anyways, while it even easier for the to run over 3 or 4 groups of pugs, because for pugs crosshealing is essential.

This sounds to me like an issue of your group being too spread out. If you do not coordinate your movements and stick together there isn't much you can do even ungrouped. As a healer you need to be with your group. If anything though it shows how valuable you are now. If you had been able to heal some of those people might not have died. This is not a bad thing. This means groups will start to seek out people like you. People will want to run with you more so than before. People will want multiple healers in their groups.

Sanct16 wrote: »

I think you guys are overvaluing crossheals for pugs. To survive a ballgroup you have to avoid the damage, and not hope that you get healed after you take a 15k grave robber to the face.

Exactly you can't out heal burst. It's the same thing if there were several bow/bow night blades that all picked one person and sniped them all at once.

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As someone who played healer alot in pvp, i really like this changes. As said here before, healers cant just afk heal in the back anymore or hide behind zergs. While this might be inconvenient at first it really helps people to improve at their role.

Every pvper out there will agree with this: good Healers are the strongest builds for any group fight in PVP
While healers in cp are not extremly overpowered, a strong healer in non-cp PVP can carry an entire group through every fight.

So to the healers in pvp i say, maybe its time to step up your game!

Exactly. Healers in pvp were even undervalued before these changes. The value that any of the meta healing sets provide a group is crazy. A good healer can do a lot with a purify synergy and a curse eater backbar.

Xuhora wrote: »

my prime argument is not the AP gains from zergsurfing, its not that i have to step up my game, its not that i am more valuable because i can now carry a 12 man group

it is the following: this change leads to players i can not interact with! i have to stand besides them and watch them die, without beeing able to do ANYTHING. Sure a DD role is not afflicted by that, because his primary interaction (dealing dmg to enemies) is allways possible. imagine the outcry if there would be certain groups that are flagged non-hostile for other DDs because ZOS likes the behavioral changes of it.

for me this is at its core a wrong decision in an MMO with a large scale battlefield. i hope you get my point and can now stop saying APleecher and Zergsurfer and what not

Xuhora wrote: »

my prime argument is not the AP gains from zergsurfing, its not that i have to step up my game, its not that i am more valuable because i can now carry a 12 man group

it is the following: this change leads to players i can not interact with! i have to stand besides them and watch them die, without beeing able to do ANYTHING. Sure a DD role is not afflicted by that, because his primary interaction (dealing dmg to enemies) is allways possible. imagine the outcry if there would be certain groups that are flagged non-hostile for other DDs because ZOS likes the behavioral changes of it.

for me this is at its core a wrong decision in an MMO with a large scale battlefield. i hope you get my point and can now stop saying APleecher and Zergsurfer and what not

This isn't the only MMO with this kind of restriction. Most large scale pvp MMOs have alot more forms of control over who and what you can heal.

Dunning_Kruger

god I love this change. As someone that does some solo play (the actual kind where you aren’t on your pugs deep in enemy territory) there’s nothing worse then some dress wearing stick waving idiot running up on your mass of pugs you’re farming and just brain dead spamming eso’s smart heals to drag on a fight .

But on a serious note this is good for those healers because there are just as many grouped healers who do enjoy large scale PvP that get down right pissed to see valuable heals going to 7 divines bowpugs instead of their team or themselves and as a result dying.

Also faction stack zergs while not having free cross heals anymore still has a few benefits like everyone’s damage still works, cc queens who dedicate their whole life to spamming talons and fossilize (wtf do these goofies look like while doing this, low key prolly cheesin), and bodies to brute force things.

It’s okay to nerf mindless brute force metas.

X up in zone and link your resto staff im sure you will get an invite.

GrumpyDuckling

So, do these upcoming changes mean that I will no longer be able to use Nature's Grasp (Warden vine skill) to swing off of randoms?

SgtNuttzmeg

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

So, do these upcoming changes mean that I will no longer be able to use Nature's Grasp (Warden vine skill) to swing off of randoms?

I never tested that ability during the testing environment. There was also some confusion about how Siege shield works and whether or not it would apply it's effects to siege used by people outside of your party.

Sephyr

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

So, do these upcoming changes mean that I will no longer be able to use Nature's Grasp (Warden vine skill) to swing off of randoms?

Most likely not.

Xuhora

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a bad change

it forces a change to a viable playstyle which has been arround since game released. not every support has to be in a group to feel "needed", some of us enjoy running arround on our own, without blindly following a crown (which not allways is a good leader).

it leads to situations, where a healer is literally useless, even if he is grouped up. for example in a busy defending szenario, where some of the group die, the others are on a wall trying to defend against the ballgroup which got inside the first gate and 2 are like 10 kilometers away because they dont have rapids anymore to catch up. so I as healer stand there, nothing in range to heal, while i have to watch my fellow alliance defender dying left and right of me without beeing able to do anything

it does NOT change anything in the current performance of cyrodill as stated by the devs themselfs. and i think that it buffs organized ballgroups, since they dont feel the change as they were running the optimal healer/support roles anyways, while it even easier for the to run over 3 or 4 groups of pugs, because for pugs crosshealing is essential.

This sounds to me like an issue of your group being too spread out. If you do not coordinate your movements and stick together there isn't much you can do even ungrouped. As a healer you need to be with your group. If anything though it shows how valuable you are now. If you had been able to heal some of those people might not have died. This is not a bad thing. This means groups will start to seek out people like you. People will want to run with you more so than before. People will want multiple healers in their groups.

Xuhora wrote: »

my prime argument is not the AP gains from zergsurfing, its not that i have to step up my game, its not that i am more valuable because i can now carry a 12 man group

it is the following: this change leads to players i can not interact with! i have to stand besides them and watch them die, without beeing able to do ANYTHING. Sure a DD role is not afflicted by that, because his primary interaction (dealing dmg to enemies) is allways possible. imagine the outcry if there would be certain groups that are flagged non-hostile for other DDs because ZOS likes the behavioral changes of it.

for me this is at its core a wrong decision in an MMO with a large scale battlefield. i hope you get my point and can now stop saying APleecher and Zergsurfer and what not

This isn't the only MMO with this kind of restriction. Most large scale pvp MMOs have alot more forms of control over who and what you can heal.

your first point: i know that this is a groupissue and a positioning issue, and that is exactly my point, thank you! we are talking about PUGS, and everbody seems to have a consense about PUGs in PVE, and let me tell you, PVP-PUGs are juuuust the same, you can not expect them to be good or know what they are doing

your second point: this is not an argument. other MMOs have tabtarget, so ESO should have tabtarget as well?

Joy_Division

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

No longer can they just spam AoE heals on a opened keep entrance, irrespective of how many alliance members have gone in or died. They got AP for healing anyone, and they could sit safety outside the keep and heal EVERY alliance member that ran through the oil and meatbagged gate.

Now you're going to have to react, and follow the 11 other members of your group into the keep and make sure those members stay alive, rather than just freelance healing an entire zerg.

LOL.

No, instead they might stop healing altogether, pick up a bow, and just spam poison injection with 3 proc sets from the safety of a faction stack. That's how real PvPers work for their AP.

Lintashi

This is irrational and unfair. Every player should have the choice to play either solo or in group. All damaging aoe's and spammables also make some server load, why not do it so that you could only damage your enemy while you are in group? I played during tests, and it was plainly ugly. 4 players from my group are near me, rest scattered in all directions, I see a person being killed right in front of me, and cannot help him, even as I am next to him. So player gets killed, next I get killed, and whole situation is just weirdly stupid. Imagine, if you encounter an enemy player, who is completely immune to your damage. is it fun? same thing healer feels, when he cannot heal a person next to him.

Sephyr

Joy_Division wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Healers are mad they are going to have to work for their AP.

No longer can they just spam AoE heals on a opened keep entrance, irrespective of how many alliance members have gone in or died. They got AP for healing anyone, and they could sit safety outside the keep and heal EVERY alliance member that ran through the oil and meatbagged gate.

Now you're going to have to react, and follow the 11 other members of your group into the keep and make sure those members stay alive, rather than just freelance healing an entire zerg.

LOL.

No, instead they might stop healing altogether, pick up a bow, and just spam poison injection with 3 proc sets from the safety of a faction stack. That's how real PvPers work for their AP.

I'm not going to pick up a bow, but I'm no longer taking healers in anymore. These people have class heals, let them get through keeps without us.

SgtNuttzmeg

Xuhora wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

why the change to group size and limiting healing to groups is a bad change

it forces a change to a viable playstyle which has been arround since game released. not every support has to be in a group to feel "needed", some of us enjoy running arround on our own, without blindly following a crown (which not allways is a good leader).

it leads to situations, where a healer is literally useless, even if he is grouped up. for example in a busy defending szenario, where some of the group die, the others are on a wall trying to defend against the ballgroup which got inside the first gate and 2 are like 10 kilometers away because they dont have rapids anymore to catch up. so I as healer stand there, nothing in range to heal, while i have to watch my fellow alliance defender dying left and right of me without beeing able to do anything

it does NOT change anything in the current performance of cyrodill as stated by the devs themselfs. and i think that it buffs organized ballgroups, since they dont feel the change as they were running the optimal healer/support roles anyways, while it even easier for the to run over 3 or 4 groups of pugs, because for pugs crosshealing is essential.

This sounds to me like an issue of your group being too spread out. If you do not coordinate your movements and stick together there isn't much you can do even ungrouped. As a healer you need to be with your group. If anything though it shows how valuable you are now. If you had been able to heal some of those people might not have died. This is not a bad thing. This means groups will start to seek out people like you. People will want to run with you more so than before. People will want multiple healers in their groups.

Xuhora wrote: »

my prime argument is not the AP gains from zergsurfing, its not that i have to step up my game, its not that i am more valuable because i can now carry a 12 man group

it is the following: this change leads to players i can not interact with! i have to stand besides them and watch them die, without beeing able to do ANYTHING. Sure a DD role is not afflicted by that, because his primary interaction (dealing dmg to enemies) is allways possible. imagine the outcry if there would be certain groups that are flagged non-hostile for other DDs because ZOS likes the behavioral changes of it.

for me this is at its core a wrong decision in an MMO with a large scale battlefield. i hope you get my point and can now stop saying APleecher and Zergsurfer and what not

This isn't the only MMO with this kind of restriction. Most large scale pvp MMOs have alot more forms of control over who and what you can heal.

your first point: i know that this is a groupissue and a positioning issue, and that is exactly my point, thank you! we are talking about PUGS, and everbody seems to have a consense about PUGs in PVE, and let me tell you, PVP-PUGs are juuuust the same, you can not expect them to be good or know what they are doing

your second point: this is not an argument. other MMOs have tabtarget, so ESO should have tabtarget as well?

That's on you and your group. I have been in plenty of pug groups that stuck together. Tell them to stick together. Also why are you running off without your group as a healer?

As for my second point I would very much prefer if ESO did not have smart healing. So yes. ESO already has one tab targetable heal. It's by no means the best heal but that is more of a balance issue and is besides the point.

Capsaica

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

As for my second point I would very much prefer if ESO did not have smart healing. So yes. ESO already has one tab targetable heal. It's by no means the best heal but that is more of a balance issue and is besides the point.

ESO does not have any mechanism to tab-target an ally. Nor does it have a call target system (where you share an enemy target with your group) nor does it have a follow target system (highlight an ally to follow).

There are heals that highlight allies when you have those heals equipped. There is no way to "lock" that heal onto a particular ally as you would when you are tab-targeting an enemy for a damage skill.

Re: a previous question (@GrumpyDuckling) asking about whether wardens will be able to use Nature's grasp while solo, if the new restrictions follow the tests, Nature's Grasp was able to be used on players outside of group during the tests. If that changes, it is a completely unusable skill to slot while ungrouped. Similarly, mend wounds was able to be used on players outside of group (also not a great solo skill anyway). It seemed that manually targeted heals like that may bypass the rules due to their special targeting.

Capsaica

As far as these changes go, I am very unhappy about them. Whenever I am running around in PvP alone, I am always set up as a damage dealer, no matter if that character is really a dps, healer or tank (or other support build). That being said, I always have a group heal slotted so that when I run across other allies, I can lend a hand if needed.

My biggest concern is not about the guilds I run with. We will adjust. I am unhappy that we're having to adjust in such an extreme manner and essentially be breaking up our longstanding group of friends (practically family), but my main concern is this:
New players will be hurt by this change. One thing ESO desperately needs and has been trying to encourage across the board is a continuous refresh of the player base. The vast majority of new players, whether they are just new to PvP or the game as a whole, do not group. They don't shout LFG in zone. They don't speak in zone most of the time. They run around and try to figure out if this is something they are interested in doing. When I was a newer player in Cyrodiil (many many moons ago), it probably took me about 2 months before I tried joining the zone pug groups. It probably took me at least another month before I actually spoke up in group comms, and I had played another MMO before this and had been active in that PvP environment and in guilds and group comms before. Truly new MMO players are usually painfully shy - especially the more adult population that ESO seems to attract.

New players without a group are going to be lost without side heals that help them out, or without the ability for them to help other players they come across. They won't have that "break in" period where they figure out - usually by surfing active zones on the map - whether or not PvP is fun enough for them to continue playing there. They will either be forced to group before they are ready (a pretty abysmal example of "play the way you want") or they will likely struggle to solo. Many will be driven away without even the chance to experience how much fun PvP can be.

@ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler - can you elaborate a bit more about what behavioral changes you saw that made this decision look good to you? Did you consider the impact to newer players?

I would propose an alternative to consider. How about making the heals dependent upon grouping status?
1) If you are in a group, then your heals only impact your group and you cannot receive heals from outside of the group.
2) If you are not in a group, you can heal other non-grouped players and receive heals from other non-grouped players.
This basically provides the opportunity for groups to have to be dependent upon each other only, which is the way most groups like it anyway. That also gives solo players the ability to help out other solos. It's not ideal, but could provide a base of support for those who just don't want to group - for whatever reason.

~Caps

Satiar

Terrible change, and I say this as someone who ostensibly benefits from it. Organized groups (like mine) will have a much easier time fighting hordes, and it wasn't that difficult already.

SgtNuttzmeg

Capsaica wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

As for my second point I would very much prefer if ESO did not have smart healing. So yes. ESO already has one tab targetable heal. It's by no means the best heal but that is more of a balance issue and is besides the point.

ESO does not have any mechanism to tab-target an ally. Nor does it have a call target system (where you share an enemy target with your group) nor does it have a follow target system (highlight an ally to follow).

There are heals that highlight allies when you have those heals equipped. There is no way to "lock" that heal onto a particular ally as you would when you are tab-targeting an enemy for a damage skill.

Re: a previous question (@GrumpyDuckling) asking about whether wardens will be able to use Nature's grasp while solo, if the new restrictions follow the tests, Nature's Grasp was able to be used on players outside of group during the tests. If that changes, it is a completely unusable skill to slot while ungrouped. Similarly, mend wounds was able to be used on players outside of group (also not a great solo skill anyway). It seemed that manually targeted heals like that may bypass the rules due to their special targeting.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/mend-wounds This is the skill I am talking about which I haven't used before but I know healers that used it during the testing. I thought it locks onto one target whenever you heavy attack.

SgtNuttzmeg

Capsaica wrote: »

As far as these changes go, I am very unhappy about them. Whenever I am running around in PvP alone, I am always set up as a damage dealer, no matter if that character is really a dps, healer or tank (or other support build). That being said, I always have a group heal slotted so that when I run across other allies, I can lend a hand if needed.

My biggest concern is not about the guilds I run with. We will adjust. I am unhappy that we're having to adjust in such an extreme manner and essentially be breaking up our longstanding group of friends (practically family), but my main concern is this:
New players will be hurt by this change. One thing ESO desperately needs and has been trying to encourage across the board is a continuous refresh of the player base. The vast majority of new players, whether they are just new to PvP or the game as a whole, do not group. They don't shout LFG in zone. They don't speak in zone most of the time. They run around and try to figure out if this is something they are interested in doing. When I was a newer player in Cyrodiil (many many moons ago), it probably took me about 2 months before I tried joining the zone pug groups. It probably took me at least another month before I actually spoke up in group comms, and I had played another MMO before this and had been active in that PvP environment and in guilds and group comms before. Truly new MMO players are usually painfully shy - especially the more adult population that ESO seems to attract.

New players without a group are going to be lost without side heals that help them out, or without the ability for them to help other players they come across. They won't have that "break in" period where they figure out - usually by surfing active zones on the map - whether or not PvP is fun enough for them to continue playing there. They will either be forced to group before they are ready (a pretty abysmal example of "play the way you want") or they will likely struggle to solo. Many will be driven away without even the chance to experience how much fun PvP can be.

@ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler - can you elaborate a bit more about what behavioral changes you saw that made this decision look good to you? Did you consider the impact to newer players?

I would propose an alternative to consider. How about making the heals dependent upon grouping status?
1) If you are in a group, then your heals only impact your group and you cannot receive heals from outside of the group.
2) If you are not in a group, you can heal other non-grouped players and receive heals from other non-grouped players.
This basically provides the opportunity for groups to have to be dependent upon each other only, which is the way most groups like it anyway. That also gives solo players the ability to help out other solos. It's not ideal, but could provide a base of support for those who just don't want to group - for whatever reason.

~Caps

I agree with you on the point that new players need to be encouraged to group.

But to address your question. What they are trying to address is faction stacking. Currently the power players get from a faction stack is too strong. The ambient healing not only wrecks havoc on the servers but causes these large zergs to function in away where only optimized ball groups or equally sized zergs can fight them. TLDR: they want groups to spread out and they want us to die quicker when we do group up. It is better gameplay health wise and better for the server. It is why we saw a stamina version of VD and a significant buff to VD.

LostToTheSea

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The ambient healing not only wrecks havoc on the servers but causes these large zergs to function in away where only optimized ball groups or equally sized zergs can fight them. TLDR: they want groups to spread out and they want us to die quicker when we do group up. It is better gameplay health wise and better for the server. It is why we saw a stamina version of VD and a significant buff to VD.

ZoS already addressed that the removal of cross healing did not net a significant performance improvement. Maybe it's organized groups known to run 12-48+ people spamming rapid regen/purge/etc and crutching on faulty mechanics. Maybe it's a little bit of everything. I know you mean well by creating this thread and want people to have a sense of optimism about these changes, as you yourself have clearly found a home in a zerg guild that fits your taste.

However, the end result of all this change will have the usual pugs creating up to 7+ variants and still creating these oh so dreaded faction stacks. As those pugs who will try to actually pug with 12 are about to get taught a hard lesson in PVP by veterans, min-maxers, and greater numbers alike.

At the end of the day, this healing change in particular is killing off what it means to engage in dynamic faction-based open world encounter PVP. You have a maximum of 11 other faction members you can meaningfully interact with should you choose to group. This isn't going to address faction stacks. If anything, then I'll wager that quite a few of those players that entertained split fights across the map will simply leave the game over this change.

You want people to spread out? They will. To other games. Veteran and new alike.

Joy_Division

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Capsaica wrote: »

As far as these changes go, I am very unhappy about them. Whenever I am running around in PvP alone, I am always set up as a damage dealer, no matter if that character is really a dps, healer or tank (or other support build). That being said, I always have a group heal slotted so that when I run across other allies, I can lend a hand if needed.

My biggest concern is not about the guilds I run with. We will adjust. I am unhappy that we're having to adjust in such an extreme manner and essentially be breaking up our longstanding group of friends (practically family), but my main concern is this:
New players will be hurt by this change. One thing ESO desperately needs and has been trying to encourage across the board is a continuous refresh of the player base. The vast majority of new players, whether they are just new to PvP or the game as a whole, do not group. They don't shout LFG in zone. They don't speak in zone most of the time. They run around and try to figure out if this is something they are interested in doing. When I was a newer player in Cyrodiil (many many moons ago), it probably took me about 2 months before I tried joining the zone pug groups. It probably took me at least another month before I actually spoke up in group comms, and I had played another MMO before this and had been active in that PvP environment and in guilds and group comms before. Truly new MMO players are usually painfully shy - especially the more adult population that ESO seems to attract.

New players without a group are going to be lost without side heals that help them out, or without the ability for them to help other players they come across. They won't have that "break in" period where they figure out - usually by surfing active zones on the map - whether or not PvP is fun enough for them to continue playing there. They will either be forced to group before they are ready (a pretty abysmal example of "play the way you want") or they will likely struggle to solo. Many will be driven away without even the chance to experience how much fun PvP can be.

@ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler - can you elaborate a bit more about what behavioral changes you saw that made this decision look good to you? Did you consider the impact to newer players?

I would propose an alternative to consider. How about making the heals dependent upon grouping status?
1) If you are in a group, then your heals only impact your group and you cannot receive heals from outside of the group.
2) If you are not in a group, you can heal other non-grouped players and receive heals from other non-grouped players.
This basically provides the opportunity for groups to have to be dependent upon each other only, which is the way most groups like it anyway. That also gives solo players the ability to help out other solos. It's not ideal, but could provide a base of support for those who just don't want to group - for whatever reason.

~Caps

I agree with you on the point that new players need to be encouraged to group.

But to address your question. What they are trying to address is faction stacking. Currently the power players get from a faction stack is too strong. The ambient healing not only wrecks havoc on the servers but causes these large zergs to function in away where only optimized ball groups or equally sized zergs can fight them. TLDR: they want groups to spread out and they want us to die quicker when we do group up. It is better gameplay health wise and better for the server. It is why we saw a stamina version of VD and a significant buff to VD.

Who says ZOS is trying to address faction stacking? Not ZoS. They didn't say that at all. They just gave us some vague statements about "behaviors," which is dubious to begin with since the test restrictions far more determined our behavior (the most common being, I'm not playing) than the changes that they made.

If ZOs cared about faction stacking, they'd change the map to give players a reason to actually not stack on top of each other. Care = invest money and resources. Follow the money. Put your money where your mouth is. ZOS never hired a PvP dev to take Brian;s place when he moved to combat lead. ZOS does not care about Cyrodiil. You know their last two big changes? Nothing about the map. Just restrictions (locks and now this) that they know will upset a huge portion of the player base. They aren't even capable of making ANY change that will make their Cyrodiil customer base happy.

Just consider one of the most basic instances that happen all the time: two grouped players take a resource and two ungrouped players go out of the keep to take it back. That should be an even fight. Under this new system, it's not; one side is playing under an advantageous ruleset. That is dumb, negates the entire premise of us being in the same alliance working for the same objectives, not to mention is just a pain in the butt that every freaking time we log onto Cyrodiil, we *have* to type LFG or be tied to the hip of someone else just so we don;t get screwed by having our abilities not function because we don;t play the way the devs, who wont even hire a PvP dev, want out "behaviors" to be.

The only thing that ZOS cares about is server calculations: something they've been telling us for years is the reason for lag and something they've assured in in every freaking patch that they made changes to reduce them that will result is improved performance. Yet somehow performance still sucks and is worse than ever. Now they have become so fanatical in this pursuit that has gotten us nowhere, they are imposing restrictions that just turn Cyrodiil into a glorified group FFA, make a mockery of the AvAvA concept, and outright eliminate how people have been playing for years.

TLDR: it sucks.

Faded

LostToTheSea wrote: »

At the end of the day, this healing change in particular is killing off what it means to engage in dynamic faction-based open world encounter PVP.

Which, ironically, is the single thing ESO PVP has that's better than other games' PVP.

SgtNuttzmeg

LostToTheSea wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The ambient healing not only wrecks havoc on the servers but causes these large zergs to function in away where only optimized ball groups or equally sized zergs can fight them. TLDR: they want groups to spread out and they want us to die quicker when we do group up. It is better gameplay health wise and better for the server. It is why we saw a stamina version of VD and a significant buff to VD.

ZoS already addressed that the removal of cross healing did not net a significant performance improvement. Maybe it's organized groups known to run 12-48+ people spamming rapid regen/purge/etc and crutching on faulty mechanics. Maybe it's a little bit of everything. I know you mean well by creating this thread and want people to have a sense of optimism about these changes, as you yourself have clearly found a home in a zerg guild that fits your taste.

However, the end result of all this change will have the usual pugs creating up to 7+ variants and still creating these oh so dreaded faction stacks. As those pugs who will try to actually pug with 12 are about to get taught a hard lesson in PVP by veterans, min-maxers, and greater numbers alike.

At the end of the day, this healing change in particular is killing off what it means to engage in dynamic faction-based open world encounter PVP. You have a maximum of 11 other faction members you can meaningfully interact with should you choose to group. This isn't going to address faction stacks. If anything, then I'll wager that quite a few of those players that entertained split fights across the map will simply leave the game over this change.

You want people to spread out? They will. To other games. Veteran and new alike.

People will adjust to this in the way they feel best suits them. If they make a DD build good on them but if they maintain their desire to be a healer they will have a significantly easier time getting into guilds. Any good group at this point runs multiple healers and this trend will only increase from here. Regardless of the changes to performance this game is better suited for groups of 12s. If people leave over this I don't blame them. This game is in a rough patch and has been for a long time. But this is something that should have been put into place patch #1. This isn't something that should have been allowed for this long. It's bad game design.

SgtNuttzmeg

Joy_Division wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Capsaica wrote: »

As far as these changes go, I am very unhappy about them. Whenever I am running around in PvP alone, I am always set up as a damage dealer, no matter if that character is really a dps, healer or tank (or other support build). That being said, I always have a group heal slotted so that when I run across other allies, I can lend a hand if needed.

My biggest concern is not about the guilds I run with. We will adjust. I am unhappy that we're having to adjust in such an extreme manner and essentially be breaking up our longstanding group of friends (practically family), but my main concern is this:
New players will be hurt by this change. One thing ESO desperately needs and has been trying to encourage across the board is a continuous refresh of the player base. The vast majority of new players, whether they are just new to PvP or the game as a whole, do not group. They don't shout LFG in zone. They don't speak in zone most of the time. They run around and try to figure out if this is something they are interested in doing. When I was a newer player in Cyrodiil (many many moons ago), it probably took me about 2 months before I tried joining the zone pug groups. It probably took me at least another month before I actually spoke up in group comms, and I had played another MMO before this and had been active in that PvP environment and in guilds and group comms before. Truly new MMO players are usually painfully shy - especially the more adult population that ESO seems to attract.

New players without a group are going to be lost without side heals that help them out, or without the ability for them to help other players they come across. They won't have that "break in" period where they figure out - usually by surfing active zones on the map - whether or not PvP is fun enough for them to continue playing there. They will either be forced to group before they are ready (a pretty abysmal example of "play the way you want") or they will likely struggle to solo. Many will be driven away without even the chance to experience how much fun PvP can be.

@ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler - can you elaborate a bit more about what behavioral changes you saw that made this decision look good to you? Did you consider the impact to newer players?

I would propose an alternative to consider. How about making the heals dependent upon grouping status?
1) If you are in a group, then your heals only impact your group and you cannot receive heals from outside of the group.
2) If you are not in a group, you can heal other non-grouped players and receive heals from other non-grouped players.
This basically provides the opportunity for groups to have to be dependent upon each other only, which is the way most groups like it anyway. That also gives solo players the ability to help out other solos. It's not ideal, but could provide a base of support for those who just don't want to group - for whatever reason.

~Caps

I agree with you on the point that new players need to be encouraged to group.

But to address your question. What they are trying to address is faction stacking. Currently the power players get from a faction stack is too strong. The ambient healing not only wrecks havoc on the servers but causes these large zergs to function in away where only optimized ball groups or equally sized zergs can fight them. TLDR: they want groups to spread out and they want us to die quicker when we do group up. It is better gameplay health wise and better for the server. It is why we saw a stamina version of VD and a significant buff to VD.

Who says ZOS is trying to address faction stacking? Not ZoS. They didn't say that at all. They just gave us some vague statements about "behaviors," which is dubious to begin with since the test restrictions far more determined our behavior (the most common being, I'm not playing) than the changes that they made.

If ZOs cared about faction stacking, they'd change the map to give players a reason to actually not stack on top of each other. Care = invest money and resources. Follow the money. Put your money where your mouth is. ZOS never hired a PvP dev to take Brian;s place when he moved to combat lead. ZOS does not care about Cyrodiil. You know their last two big changes? Nothing about the map. Just restrictions (locks and now this) that they know will upset a huge portion of the player base. They aren't even capable of making ANY change that will make their Cyrodiil customer base happy.

Just consider one of the most basic instances that happen all the time: two grouped players take a resource and two ungrouped players go out of the keep to take it back. That should be an even fight. Under this new system, it's not; one side is playing under an advantageous ruleset. That is dumb, negates the entire premise of us being in the same alliance working for the same objectives, not to mention is just a pain in the butt that every freaking time we log onto Cyrodiil, we *have* to type LFG or be tied to the hip of someone else just so we don;t get screwed by having our abilities not function because we don;t play the way the devs, who wont even hire a PvP dev, want out "behaviors" to be.

The only thing that ZOS cares about is server calculations: something they've been telling us for years is the reason for lag and something they've assured in in every freaking patch that they made changes to reduce them that will result is improved performance. Yet somehow performance still sucks and is worse than ever. Now they have become so fanatical in this pursuit that has gotten us nowhere, they are imposing restrictions that just turn Cyrodiil into a glorified group FFA, make a mockery of the AvAvA concept, and outright eliminate how people have been playing for years.

TLDR: it sucks.

They did say that. They didn't say it in that particular post but if you look into the other mediums, fasting stacking has been identified as a huge pain point performance wise. THis is just step number one. They want fights to end quicker and for groups to wipe quicker.

Also I am not sure where you get this idea that ungrouped players can't heal other ungrouped players. From when I was in testing environment this was not the case.

They might not have the same resources they once did but they are trying something, like it or not. We have been asking for change for a long time. We need to accept that whatever changes they bring will require stipulations from players. Certain pain points will be addressed. Zergs/ball groups will likely get nerfed along the way and general player survivability will likely continue to get nerfed. But this is what we get. If you don't like it I recommend jumping ship now because this is what we are gonna get. I don't think complaining about it on the forums will change anything.

Kendric5

Is this change only in PVP?

SgtNuttzmeg

Kendric5 wrote: »

Is this change only in PVP?

Yes