Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

zDan

Listen, I'm all for reducing lag in cyrodiil... It's a long time coming, but this... this is beyond stupid! I cannot comprehend how you will think this is a good idea for pvp combat, this will kill off the game for good, which is extremely saddening.

TheBinarySurfer

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.

[/quote]

I don't think they understand how far-reaching the implications of any of these changes are even in a 'simplier environment' like PvE i.e. where things do only what they are programmed to (no players being wacky in pvp)

We're talking about months of redevelopment of skills, gear adjustments, monster adjustments, encounter changes, complete rebuilds on every class, most players investing hundreds of thousands of gold etc.

I mean this is the kind of change you'd make early on in a game's life cycle or even the development cycle itself at perhaps Alpha stage.

Taking it on good faith and assuming they committed to doing this; we are probably talking about no new content for at least 12 months while they work through this, or token content at best.

And PvP being basically unplayable for the entirety of this time.

TheBinarySurfer

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

more players started utilizing this particular method of "AOE spamming",

Can you explain why, if you know or strongly suspect this was an issue...

You have added multiple AoE proc sets into the game on a sustained basis; up to and including the last patch, and will be in the next patch based on notes? A common build for example I see every MagDK using almost is; Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr and Elfbane. This gives near-perma-AoE around the player plus their own multi-targetable dots and skills.

I don't understand how on one hand you can say 'AoE spam is likely the issue' and yet keep introducing more and more and more AoE via sets? It's literally in direct opposition to your belief this is the issue.

Brrrofski

So bigger groups will be able to stagger skills or just go to single target skills. There's more of them so they actually need AOEs less.

But a solo or small player has to now single target all of them?

It's ridiculous.

And we all hate lag because we can't cast abilities. So your answer is to make that an intended mechanic now?

This will kill Cyrodiil.

If you're not playing stamblade currently, dust one off or grind one up. Everyone else will have a rough time, whichever of these they implement.

Elsonso

TheBinarySurfer wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert I'm sorry but you appear to be ignoring an 'easy' fix for this and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For example; why not comment on why 'more powerful' servers are not the answer.

Yes. Many are curious, but this is not a "discussion" or a "conversation", it is a "press release". ZOS very rarely follows up on that sort of thing.

jaws343 wrote: »

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

That might work, but there is a danger, and I figure that is why these things get spammed. If the tactical situation changes and you need to "move" your AoE to another place, you would be locked out of that until the current one is complete. So, you drop an AoE and all the bad guys just hop out of it.

This would definitely help solve the problem of deliberately lagging the server for a combat advantage, though.

TheBinarySurfer wrote: »

I don't understand how on one hand you can say 'AoE spam is likely the issue' and yet keep introducing more and more and more AoE via sets? It's literally in direct opposition to your belief this is the issue.

That is the point of the first part of the story. ZOS has been on a drunken binge with AoE and sustain for a while, all while knowing that they are going to have one hell of a hangover in the morning. Well... good morning! (Edit: figuratively speaking, of course)

jaws343

TheBinarySurfer wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

more players started utilizing this particular method of "AOE spamming",

Can you explain why, if you know or strongly suspect this was an issue...

You have added multiple AoE proc sets into the game on a sustained basis; up to and including the last patch, and will be in the next patch based on notes? A common build for example I see every MagDK using almost is; Overwhelming Surge, Grothdarr and Elfbane. This gives near-perma-AoE around the player plus their own multi-targetable dots and skills.

I don't understand how on one hand you can say 'AoE spam is likely the issue' and yet keep introducing more and more and more AoE via sets? It's literally in direct opposition to your belief this is the issue.

I think the aoe proc sets are a bit different though. They have cooldowns and/or proc conditions. There really is not spamming of these. Now the smart targeting sets, like heals, have already been addressed to only effect group members, so they at least are making efforts to stem the issues the sets may have on performance. But I can't see them having as much impact as AOE skill spam in one location.

kojou

After testing with AoEs can we also test:

- Removing Champion Point perks. Basic stat increases remain, but all the various procs and conditional bonuses removed.
- Remove 5 and 2 piece set bonuses. (i.e. Bonuses 2-4 only on 5 piece and Bonus 1 on 2 piece sets)

Sugaroverdose

jaws343 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait. Simple solution to Cyrodiil combat. Don't we have a series of "rock paper scissors" emotes?

davidj8291 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I don't know how much I can stress to you that this would absolutely kill group play with less than 24 in Cyrodiil, in addition to completely neutralizing several existing classes.

Unlikely. Keep in mind that they might not use a 3 second cooldown, or any cooldown beyond the global cooldown, and accomplish this via other means. Maybe cap regen and increase the AoE skill cost. Maybe casting an AoE disables regen for some duration. Maybe a cast time on the AoE skills to help prevent spamming. Maybe only allow a certain number of AoE to be active in an area at a time. All they really need to do is make it so that players don't continuously spam AoE. How they do that is an open field, and does not have to be one of the methods they test.

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

What templars should do while their extended ritual lays on ground for eternity? Same thing for lots of Necro abilities(as i heard, didn't test it by myself).
Anyway, it's not a solution for calculation issues, at least not complete, since zerg can still run around this effects and bump calculations required to enormous values(whatever they are)

Best way to mitigate issue - is to force people to spread by making stacking ineffective and unprofitable.

fun fact: 3 years or something like that ago ZoS actually added AP gain boost the bigger your group is. Most of battle mechanics changes was targeted exclusively to make small scale less viable and boosted zergs(and people literally said it to ZoS with first appearance of changelogs) like so: shield duration drop, shield price boost, increasing number of 'ticks' for blocking twice, disabling stamina regen in block, making heavy attack almost main source of sustain, etc.
Game has been reworked the way that zerging become stronger and stronger with every patch starting from removal of dynamic ultimate regen or even earlier.

And now, ZoS claims that zergs ruin the game, still doesn't do anything to naturally make people spread, instead they once again forces pugs to stack just not to be dead.

Firstmep

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait. Simple solution to Cyrodiil combat. Don't we have a series of "rock paper scissors" emotes?

davidj8291 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I don't know how much I can stress to you that this would absolutely kill group play with less than 24 in Cyrodiil, in addition to completely neutralizing several existing classes.

Unlikely. Keep in mind that they might not use a 3 second cooldown, or any cooldown beyond the global cooldown, and accomplish this via other means. Maybe cap regen and increase the AoE skill cost. Maybe casting an AoE disables regen for some duration. Maybe a cast time on the AoE skills to help prevent spamming. Maybe only allow a certain number of AoE to be active in an area at a time. All they really need to do is make it so that players don't continuously spam AoE. How they do that is an open field, and does not have to be one of the methods they test.

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

What templars should do while their extended ritual lays on ground for eternity? Same thing for lots of Necro abilities(as i heard, didn't test it by myself).
Anyway, it's not a solution for calculation issues, at least not complete, since zerg can still run around this effects and bump calculations required to enormous values(whatever they are)

Best way to mitigate issue - is to force people to spread by making stacking ineffective and unprofitable.

fun fact: 3 years or something like that ago ZoS actually added AP gain boost the bigger your group is. Most of battle mechanics changes was targeted exclusively to make small scale less viable and boosted zergs(and people literally said it to ZoS with first appearance of changelogs) like so: shield duration drop, shield price boost, increasing number of 'ticks' for blocking twice, disabling stamina regen in block, making heavy attack almost main source of sustain, etc.
Game has been reworked the way that zerging become stronger and stronger with every patch starting from removal of dynamic ultimate regen or even earlier.

And now, ZoS claims that zergs ruin the game, still doesn't do anything to naturally make people spread, instead they once again forces pugs to stack just not to be dead.

This.
Look at cyrodiil, the vast majority of the zone is unused empty space with filler rocks and trees.
They could easily split cyrodiil into multiple smaller zones, so that the lag in on zone wouldn't spill over.
Than you can look at adding incentives to spread out, like caravans, smaller capturable objectives spread around the map etc.
At the moment the vast majority of fighting is concentrated around emp keeps, and it's their fault for designing cyro that way.
What they are proposing is the same crappy spreadsheet balancing they have been doing since the new combat dev team took over.

Elsonso

Firstmep wrote: »

Look at cyrodiil, the vast majority of the zone is unused empty space with filler rocks and trees.
They could easily split cyrodiil into multiple smaller zones, so that the lag in on zone wouldn't spill over.

If you carefully read what Lambert said, they do something like this.

This isn't about the number of people in the Campaign, it is about where they are and what they are doing. Even if you break Cyrodiil down into 100 little squares, if everyone is in one square, it is the same problem.

Of course, if the problem is too many people in the same place, maybe the answer is to shut down the transit system and make everyone ride their horsies to the action from the alliance entry point. Just kidding.

Sugaroverdose

Elsonso wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Look at cyrodiil, the vast majority of the zone is unused empty space with filler rocks and trees.
They could easily split cyrodiil into multiple smaller zones, so that the lag in on zone wouldn't spill over.

If you carefully read what Lambert said, they do something like this.

This isn't about the number of people in the Campaign, it is about where they are and what they are doing. Even if you break Cyrodiil down into 100 little squares, if everyone is in one square, it is the same problem.

Of course, if the problem is too many people in the same place, maybe the answer is to shut down the transit system and make everyone ride their horsies to the action from the alliance entry point. Just kidding.

If you think for a little bit, all what they plan to do will just amplify stacking. Saying "we want to have those effect" and doing literally opposite does not counts.

PS: well there's also will be hell a lot of gankers, mostly stamblades, but it's how really PvP oriented people will be forced to have fun

nml

Hail,

[snip]

I notice that Zenimax has posted a job advertisement for a "Director of Infrastructure Engineering" (https://jobs.zenimax.com/requisitions/view/1410) - I pray to Meridia that you hire the right individual for this critical role because it is only with their insight that you will solve these performance problems.

Ask yourselves: Does there exist a technical team somewhere on this earth that could make the Cyrodiil performance good without resorting to gameplay destroying changes like all aoe abilities sharing a cooldown?

Another wiseguy on this thread claimed to have 'knowledge of how HPC scalability works' - don't make me laugh - there are companies taking on much bigger jobs that require far more processing power and lower latency doing just fine because they design their server and network architectures correctly.

Zenimax should take note of the reaction to these proposed changes and reflect on where the real problem lies - hint: server and network capacity and architecture.

I didn't want to post this but you made me do it.

-NML



[Edited for Discussing Moderation Actions]

RusevCrush

Thanks for the nicely worded post. It clearly lays everything out and was easy for all to understand.

Stack and burn is not fun in pvp or pve. Move us towards more independent movement. People love The Twins fight, it's brilliant. Breakdown why it's fun and you'll have a good benchmark going forward.

Sugaroverdose

nml wrote: »

Hail,

[snip]

I notice that Zenimax has posted a job advertisement for a "Director of Infrastructure Engineering" (https://jobs.zenimax.com/requisitions/view/1410) - I pray to Meridia that you hire the right individual for this critical role because it is only with their insight that you will solve these performance problems.

Ask yourselves: Does there exist a technical team somewhere on this earth that could make the Cyrodiil performance good without resorting to gameplay destroying changes like all aoe abilities sharing a cooldown?

Another wiseguy on this thread claimed to have 'knowledge of how HPC scalability works' - don't make me laugh - there are companies taking on much bigger jobs that require far more processing power and lower latency doing just fine because they design their server and network architectures correctly.

Zenimax should take note of the reaction to these proposed changes and reflect on where the real problem lies - hint: server and network capacity and architecture.

I didn't want to post this but you made me do it.

-NML



[Edited for Discussing Moderation Action]

As infrastructure engineer: well this job advertisement does nothing to work as engineer, they want a guy who "know something" but he's main thing is to ***-off real engineers with stupid questions while trying to get another price cut from vendor.

Things can be changed in our case by extremely capable software Architect who will also have "carte blanche" to redo a lot of legacy stuff, and he should be interested to make something which he can actually take responsibility for in public(yet there's a lot of people who literally advertise their total failures as "experience").

frostbreeze

The reason Ball groups cause lag is because they dont die fast enough mainly because of how easy it is to purge/heal but also beacuse solo players zerging versus them dont get an advantage(like dynamic ultimate was which would reward you for fighting a stacked blob by letting u demolish them fast with ultimate spam were they to remain stacked.Thats why it didnt lag that horribly pre 1.5 era and trust me people were spamming aoes from day 1 its not the cps or player knowledge that changed this).There is a really easy fix for this.Make all heals self heals.Done. ball groups dont get carried by spamming 1 button each zerglings dont get saved from rollspamming into their zerg to get random heals--->people die faster

---

>insanely less server calculations.Also bring back dynamic ultimate gain caused by damage only-not heals to allow for faster zerg/ball group killing.I think this should be tested in at least 1 cycle.Eso is the last bastion of enjoyable mmorpg pvp.I hope u can render it playable again cause right now its in a heartbreaking state.
With regards,
A random guy that's pvped since the beginning

Recremen

frostbreeze wrote: »

The reason Ball groups cause lag is because they dont die fast enough mainly because of how easy it is to purge/heal but also beacuse solo players zerging versus them dont get an advantage(like dynamic ultimate was which would reward you for fighting a stacked blob by letting u demolish them fast with ultimate spam were they to remain stacked.Thats why it didnt lag that horribly pre 1.5 era and trust me people were spamming aoes from day 1 its not the cps or player knowledge that changed this).There is a really easy fix for this.Make all heals self heals.Done. ball groups dont get carried by spamming 1 button each zerglings dont get saved from rollspamming into their zerg to get random heals--->people die faster

---

>insanely less server calculations.Also bring back dynamic ultimate gain caused by damage only-not heals to allow for faster zerg/ball group killing.I think this should be tested in at least 1 cycle.Eso is the last bastion of enjoyable mmorpg pvp.I hope u can render it playable again cause right now its in a heartbreaking state.
With regards,
A random guy that's pvped since the beginning

This is a pretty bad analysis. It seems like you're imagining some lone player running off to fight a horde on their own, but realistically that never happens. Even if we ignore the fact that the rest of your faction exists and is engaged in the fight, "ball groups" don't like to fight single players. For one thing, you'd get destroyed, even with dynamic ult gen, and for another said "ball groups" are generally filled with some of the best players in the game. They're not the same random pug zergs from the days of old, they're coordinated guilds. In dynamic ult gen, they'd get theirs up just as fast, and the *actual* scenario that would happen is two or more ball groups would start fighting each other and start ult spamming because they'd all be getting their ult up stupidly quick due to the way dynamic ult gen works.

Another silly thing you're claiming is that AoE spam now is the same as AoE spam then. It's objectively not. Back in the day you would only have a couple AoE things going off with your spammable (maybe some caltrops, maybe a constant-effect buff or two), but now we have multiple AoE item sets, skills, etc. which contribute to far more AoEs being in motion at once on top of firing off your spammable. We also have a greater number of high-performing experienced players who are doing exactly this in order to get their damage/buffs/healing out in an optimal manner. It's an absolutely objectively different ball game compared to the days of a 60-person zerg spamming impulse and immovable on Alessia bridge.

And finally, your heal suggestion just demonstrates an ignorance of how MMOs are designed. People need the ability to heal others. Every group PvE encounter and PvP encounter is designed around some people choosing to be dedicated healers. It's part of the holy trinity of group roles. It's also the only way you can survive in Cyrodiil combat, because the amount of outgoing damage in a group fight is completely impossible for someone to heal up on their own. If you want to play a horse simulator then go play RDR2 coop, we Cyrodiil PvPers prefer fights to be a little more drawn out before we have to run to the next keep.

mb10

Someone needs to have a word with whoever even suggested this idea...

Might as well just scrap PVP altogether and make a story out of it. Yep the Alliance War finished and the Imperials took their land back.

Sugaroverdose

mb10 wrote: »

Someone needs to have a word with whoever even suggested this idea...

Might as well just scrap PVP altogether and make a story out of it. Yep the Alliance War finished and the Imperials took their land back.

And even PvP most definitely will like it, just because content team does incredible job)

Recremen wrote: »

frostbreeze wrote: »

The reason Ball groups cause lag is because they dont die fast enough mainly because of how easy it is to purge/heal but also beacuse solo players zerging versus them dont get an advantage(like dynamic ultimate was which would reward you for fighting a stacked blob by letting u demolish them fast with ultimate spam were they to remain stacked.Thats why it didnt lag that horribly pre 1.5 era and trust me people were spamming aoes from day 1 its not the cps or player knowledge that changed this).There is a really easy fix for this.Make all heals self heals.Done. ball groups dont get carried by spamming 1 button each zerglings dont get saved from rollspamming into their zerg to get random heals--->people die faster

---

>insanely less server calculations.Also bring back dynamic ultimate gain caused by damage only-not heals to allow for faster zerg/ball group killing.I think this should be tested in at least 1 cycle.Eso is the last bastion of enjoyable mmorpg pvp.I hope u can render it playable again cause right now its in a heartbreaking state.
With regards,
A random guy that's pvped since the beginning

This is a pretty bad analysis. It seems like you're imagining some lone player running off to fight a horde on their own, but realistically that never happens. Even if we ignore the fact that the rest of your faction exists and is engaged in the fight, "ball groups" don't like to fight single players. For one thing, you'd get destroyed, even with dynamic ult gen, and for another said "ball groups" are generally filled with some of the best players in the game. They're not the same random pug zergs from the days of old, they're coordinated guilds. In dynamic ult gen, they'd get theirs up just as fast, and the *actual* scenario that would happen is two or more ball groups would start fighting each other and start ult spamming because they'd all be getting their ult up stupidly quick due to the way dynamic ult gen works.

Another silly thing you're claiming is that AoE spam now is the same as AoE spam then. It's objectively not. Back in the day you would only have a couple AoE things going off with your spammable (maybe some caltrops, maybe a constant-effect buff or two), but now we have multiple AoE item sets, skills, etc. which contribute to far more AoEs being in motion at once on top of firing off your spammable. We also have a greater number of high-performing experienced players who are doing exactly this in order to get their damage/buffs/healing out in an optimal manner. It's an absolutely objectively different ball game compared to the days of a 60-person zerg spamming impulse and immovable on Alessia bridge.

And finally, your heal suggestion just demonstrates an ignorance of how MMOs are designed. People need the ability to heal others. Every group PvE encounter and PvP encounter is designed around some people choosing to be dedicated healers. It's part of the holy trinity of group roles. It's also the only way you can survive in Cyrodiil combat, because the amount of outgoing damage in a group fight is completely impossible for someone to heal up on their own. If you want to play a horse simulator then go play RDR2 coop, we Cyrodiil PvPers prefer fights to be a little more drawn out before we have to run to the next keep.

Rofl, you've triggered on "ball group" which is wrong - most people associate it with mindless zergs, yet organised groups wasn't "invented" now, they was in game since it released(at least on consoles, i've started to play ESO those times) and from my experience, they only ignore solo players when they are sure that he's baiting.

ShadowProc

NERF PURGE

Recremen

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Someone needs to have a word with whoever even suggested this idea...

Might as well just scrap PVP altogether and make a story out of it. Yep the Alliance War finished and the Imperials took their land back.

And even PvP most definitely will like it, just because content team does incredible job)

Recremen wrote: »

frostbreeze wrote: »

The reason Ball groups cause lag is because they dont die fast enough mainly because of how easy it is to purge/heal but also beacuse solo players zerging versus them dont get an advantage(like dynamic ultimate was which would reward you for fighting a stacked blob by letting u demolish them fast with ultimate spam were they to remain stacked.Thats why it didnt lag that horribly pre 1.5 era and trust me people were spamming aoes from day 1 its not the cps or player knowledge that changed this).There is a really easy fix for this.Make all heals self heals.Done. ball groups dont get carried by spamming 1 button each zerglings dont get saved from rollspamming into their zerg to get random heals--->people die faster

---

>insanely less server calculations.Also bring back dynamic ultimate gain caused by damage only-not heals to allow for faster zerg/ball group killing.I think this should be tested in at least 1 cycle.Eso is the last bastion of enjoyable mmorpg pvp.I hope u can render it playable again cause right now its in a heartbreaking state.
With regards,
A random guy that's pvped since the beginning

This is a pretty bad analysis. It seems like you're imagining some lone player running off to fight a horde on their own, but realistically that never happens. Even if we ignore the fact that the rest of your faction exists and is engaged in the fight, "ball groups" don't like to fight single players. For one thing, you'd get destroyed, even with dynamic ult gen, and for another said "ball groups" are generally filled with some of the best players in the game. They're not the same random pug zergs from the days of old, they're coordinated guilds. In dynamic ult gen, they'd get theirs up just as fast, and the *actual* scenario that would happen is two or more ball groups would start fighting each other and start ult spamming because they'd all be getting their ult up stupidly quick due to the way dynamic ult gen works.

Another silly thing you're claiming is that AoE spam now is the same as AoE spam then. It's objectively not. Back in the day you would only have a couple AoE things going off with your spammable (maybe some caltrops, maybe a constant-effect buff or two), but now we have multiple AoE item sets, skills, etc. which contribute to far more AoEs being in motion at once on top of firing off your spammable. We also have a greater number of high-performing experienced players who are doing exactly this in order to get their damage/buffs/healing out in an optimal manner. It's an absolutely objectively different ball game compared to the days of a 60-person zerg spamming impulse and immovable on Alessia bridge.

And finally, your heal suggestion just demonstrates an ignorance of how MMOs are designed. People need the ability to heal others. Every group PvE encounter and PvP encounter is designed around some people choosing to be dedicated healers. It's part of the holy trinity of group roles. It's also the only way you can survive in Cyrodiil combat, because the amount of outgoing damage in a group fight is completely impossible for someone to heal up on their own. If you want to play a horse simulator then go play RDR2 coop, we Cyrodiil PvPers prefer fights to be a little more drawn out before we have to run to the next keep.

Rofl, you've triggered on "ball group" which is wrong - most people associate it with mindless zergs, yet organised groups wasn't "invented" now, they was in game since it released(at least on consoles, i've started to play ESO those times) and from my experience, they only ignore solo players when they are sure that he's baiting.

Huge lol that you're using the term "triggered" unironically. Are you of the 4chan or 8chan variety? Anyway, you're wrong, ball groups are organized people actually running together, hence the "ball" part of the terminology. It stems from the organized groups of old, who would literally move in one tightly-knit ball to protect against AoE, which back then had a cap of 6. I would know, I was part of one. That's also why I know we didn't have nearly as many AoE effects going off back then.

Sugaroverdose

Recremen wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Someone needs to have a word with whoever even suggested this idea...

Might as well just scrap PVP altogether and make a story out of it. Yep the Alliance War finished and the Imperials took their land back.

And even PvP most definitely will like it, just because content team does incredible job)

Recremen wrote: »

frostbreeze wrote: »

The reason Ball groups cause lag is because they dont die fast enough mainly because of how easy it is to purge/heal but also beacuse solo players zerging versus them dont get an advantage(like dynamic ultimate was which would reward you for fighting a stacked blob by letting u demolish them fast with ultimate spam were they to remain stacked.Thats why it didnt lag that horribly pre 1.5 era and trust me people were spamming aoes from day 1 its not the cps or player knowledge that changed this).There is a really easy fix for this.Make all heals self heals.Done. ball groups dont get carried by spamming 1 button each zerglings dont get saved from rollspamming into their zerg to get random heals--->people die faster

---

>insanely less server calculations.Also bring back dynamic ultimate gain caused by damage only-not heals to allow for faster zerg/ball group killing.I think this should be tested in at least 1 cycle.Eso is the last bastion of enjoyable mmorpg pvp.I hope u can render it playable again cause right now its in a heartbreaking state.
With regards,
A random guy that's pvped since the beginning

This is a pretty bad analysis. It seems like you're imagining some lone player running off to fight a horde on their own, but realistically that never happens. Even if we ignore the fact that the rest of your faction exists and is engaged in the fight, "ball groups" don't like to fight single players. For one thing, you'd get destroyed, even with dynamic ult gen, and for another said "ball groups" are generally filled with some of the best players in the game. They're not the same random pug zergs from the days of old, they're coordinated guilds. In dynamic ult gen, they'd get theirs up just as fast, and the *actual* scenario that would happen is two or more ball groups would start fighting each other and start ult spamming because they'd all be getting their ult up stupidly quick due to the way dynamic ult gen works.

Another silly thing you're claiming is that AoE spam now is the same as AoE spam then. It's objectively not. Back in the day you would only have a couple AoE things going off with your spammable (maybe some caltrops, maybe a constant-effect buff or two), but now we have multiple AoE item sets, skills, etc. which contribute to far more AoEs being in motion at once on top of firing off your spammable. We also have a greater number of high-performing experienced players who are doing exactly this in order to get their damage/buffs/healing out in an optimal manner. It's an absolutely objectively different ball game compared to the days of a 60-person zerg spamming impulse and immovable on Alessia bridge.

And finally, your heal suggestion just demonstrates an ignorance of how MMOs are designed. People need the ability to heal others. Every group PvE encounter and PvP encounter is designed around some people choosing to be dedicated healers. It's part of the holy trinity of group roles. It's also the only way you can survive in Cyrodiil combat, because the amount of outgoing damage in a group fight is completely impossible for someone to heal up on their own. If you want to play a horse simulator then go play RDR2 coop, we Cyrodiil PvPers prefer fights to be a little more drawn out before we have to run to the next keep.

Rofl, you've triggered on "ball group" which is wrong - most people associate it with mindless zergs, yet organised groups wasn't "invented" now, they was in game since it released(at least on consoles, i've started to play ESO those times) and from my experience, they only ignore solo players when they are sure that he's baiting.

Huge lol that you're using the term "triggered" unironically. Are you of the 4chan or 8chan variety? Anyway, you're wrong, ball groups are organized people actually running together, hence the "ball" part of the terminology. It stems from the organized groups of old, who would literally move in one tightly-knit ball to protect against AoE, which back then had a cap of 6. I would know, I was part of one. That's also why I know we didn't have nearly as many AoE effects going off back then.

Nope i'm not.
I do see difference, read carefully.
There is ton of vids 3+ years ago, can't remember clan name but all they did - is organised zergslapping in ball group and vids has been published on forums(which is impossible to find, thanks to crappy search), which had constant aoe spam, both healing and damaging based on commands.

There was AoE soft caps for exclusion of DK abilities which had hardcap, so abilities still did damage and even being debuffed by soft cap they still dealt serious amount of damage to more than 6 persons.

UPD: here ya go https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242260/astrum-herois-pvp-guild-videos-who-the-is-astrum-trailer-updated-06-02-16/[unsll_url_3]

Elymion

I will strongly support this changing by small scale pvper. Many spaming aoe were suxking point at this game both side of performance and game play. And i understood ur intend. So don't hesitate about pushing this patch!!!!

But way-1 is so harsh to classes that have many aoe skills.. and puncturing sweep must be required some adjustments if patch will come.

Reaver988

Could we get x2 transmute stones instead of AP? I feel that incentive would be better

Thraben

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait. Simple solution to Cyrodiil combat. Don't we have a series of "rock paper scissors" emotes?

davidj8291 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I don't know how much I can stress to you that this would absolutely kill group play with less than 24 in Cyrodiil, in addition to completely neutralizing several existing classes.

Unlikely. Keep in mind that they might not use a 3 second cooldown, or any cooldown beyond the global cooldown, and accomplish this via other means. Maybe cap regen and increase the AoE skill cost. Maybe casting an AoE disables regen for some duration. Maybe a cast time on the AoE skills to help prevent spamming. Maybe only allow a certain number of AoE to be active in an area at a time. All they really need to do is make it so that players don't continuously spam AoE. How they do that is an open field, and does not have to be one of the methods they test.

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

This 100%.

Look at Sub Assault. Many AOEs could be reworked to function as "skill shots" like Sub Assault does.

-Cast the skill
-The occurrence of the AOE effect is delayed (2-3 secs)
-If recast before the occurrence of the AOE, the delay is reset and the first cast never goes off.

You can cast it as many times as you like (no cooldown, no ramping costs), but you will reduce the frequency of the AOE effect.

As much I like the idea that powerful AoE skills should need some preparation time, I need to say that skills like SubAssault cause even more lag, because groups will sync as many different delayed AoE skills as possible, creating the "Detonation lag", i.e. you see them coming, you try to evade them but the server doesn't let you because all these pre-loaded AoE skills explode at the same time.

renne

Elsonso wrote: »

Of course, if the problem is too many people in the same place, maybe the answer is to shut down the transit system and make everyone ride their horsies to the action from the alliance entry point. Just kidding.

I mean, they're swapping rapids with vigor which'll slow people right down, so this is probably the next step.

Unified_Gaming

renne wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Of course, if the problem is too many people in the same place, maybe the answer is to shut down the transit system and make everyone ride their horsies to the action from the alliance entry point. Just kidding.

I mean, they're swapping rapids with vigor which'll slow people right down, so this is probably the next step.

Yeah whilst releasing a duo mount...

Elsonso

renne wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Of course, if the problem is too many people in the same place, maybe the answer is to shut down the transit system and make everyone ride their horsies to the action from the alliance entry point. Just kidding.

I mean, they're swapping rapids with vigor which'll slow people right down, so this is probably the next step.

The only inconvenience that the people who are able to spam AoEs in Cyrodiil will have due to the swapping of those skills is if ZOS refunds the skill points and they need to go back in and pick skills again. ZOS will have to do better than that if they want to slow people down. Closing the transit down will do that. After that, forcing everyone to walk across Cyrodiil. No running, sprinting, or mounts. Obviously, the goal is to make Cyrodiil combat primarily about yelling at each other across the map.

L_Nici

Well, I played a bit around on the PTS now there they have 3 seconds individual cooldown on the same AoE Skill, and I have to say it is not as bad as thought.

My Stamsorc still works fine since it only has Hurricane and Quick Cloak as AoE and buffs.

My pretty new AoE DoT based Necromancer actually worked pretty well too, I would only change Reverse Slice to Executioner to get one source of constant spammable damage, because using Reverse Slice would cripple the DPS to the ground, only being able to execute every 3 seconds is pretty useless. Stampede is really strong with Maelstrom 2h and doesn't really need to be spammed anyway, Caltrops stay on ground, so 3 seconds doesn't matter there either, same for Deadly Cloak once applied it stays I don't need to recast it. Overall I could just rotate around that 3 seconds, it actually helped my sustain a little, because I couldn't recast some skills directly after use, if it lagged or something and didn't need to pay double.

Stamplar and Magplar are a bit worse of there, Jabs are a wasted slot with that, but you can still rotate around other skills pretty well, Healspam won't work anymore of course, which can be a good thing but a bad thing as well, depending if you are solo or in group. Solo thats pretty bad, in a small organized group you can get covered by your members (Which btw. will lead to the fact that Ballgroups are still as overperforming as before, if one can't heal right now, 10 others do it instead, same for their AoE damage, if one can't cast 10 others do it).

So overall a 3 second individual cooldown could actually be a pretty nice change, and would bring a new awareness about your precise rotation instead of just spamming one skill to win.
A Global Cooldown on the other hand would be destructive to combat and ruin the PvP, so if any of that changes has to come, please let it be the individual cooldown.

Unified_Gaming

L_Nici wrote: »

Well, I played a bit around on the PTS now there they have 3 seconds individual cooldown on the same AoE Skill, and I have to say it is not as bad as thought.

My Stamsorc still works fine since it only has Hurricane and Quick Cloak as AoE and buffs.

My pretty new AoE DoT based Necromancer actually worked pretty well too, I would only change Reverse Slice to Executioner to get one source of constant spammable damage, because using Reverse Slice would cripple the DPS to the ground, only being able to execute every 3 seconds is pretty useless. Stampede is really strong with Maelstrom 2h and doesn't really need to be spammed anyway, Caltrops stay on ground, so 3 seconds doesn't matter there either, same for Deadly Cloak once applied it stays I don't need to recast it. Overall I could just rotate around that 3 seconds, it actually helped my sustain a little, because I couldn't recast some skills directly after use, if it lagged or something and didn't need to pay double.

Stamplar and Magplar are a bit worse of there, Jabs are a wasted slot with that, but you can still rotate around other skills pretty well, Healspam won't work anymore of course, which can be a good thing but a bad thing as well, depending if you are solo or in group. Solo thats pretty bad, in a small organized group you can get covered by your members (Which btw. will lead to the fact that Ballgroups are still as overperforming as before, if one can't heal right now, 10 others do it instead, same for their AoE damage, if one can't cast 10 others do it).

So overall a 3 second individual cooldown could actually be a pretty nice change, and would bring a new awareness about your precise rotation instead of just spamming one skill to win.
A Global Cooldown on the other hand would be destructive to combat and ruin the PvP, so if any of that changes has to come, please let it be the individual cooldown.

The issue is that it applies to nearly all magicka heals so you can't heal yourself properly. Magicka struggles vs stamina as is and being unable to heal would make most magicka toons useless even in groups.

relentless_turnip

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Well, I played a bit around on the PTS now there they have 3 seconds individual cooldown on the same AoE Skill, and I have to say it is not as bad as thought.

My Stamsorc still works fine since it only has Hurricane and Quick Cloak as AoE and buffs.

My pretty new AoE DoT based Necromancer actually worked pretty well too, I would only change Reverse Slice to Executioner to get one source of constant spammable damage, because using Reverse Slice would cripple the DPS to the ground, only being able to execute every 3 seconds is pretty useless. Stampede is really strong with Maelstrom 2h and doesn't really need to be spammed anyway, Caltrops stay on ground, so 3 seconds doesn't matter there either, same for Deadly Cloak once applied it stays I don't need to recast it. Overall I could just rotate around that 3 seconds, it actually helped my sustain a little, because I couldn't recast some skills directly after use, if it lagged or something and didn't need to pay double.

Stamplar and Magplar are a bit worse of there, Jabs are a wasted slot with that, but you can still rotate around other skills pretty well, Healspam won't work anymore of course, which can be a good thing but a bad thing as well, depending if you are solo or in group. Solo thats pretty bad, in a small organized group you can get covered by your members (Which btw. will lead to the fact that Ballgroups are still as overperforming as before, if one can't heal right now, 10 others do it instead, same for their AoE damage, if one can't cast 10 others do it).

So overall a 3 second individual cooldown could actually be a pretty nice change, and would bring a new awareness about your precise rotation instead of just spamming one skill to win.
A Global Cooldown on the other hand would be destructive to combat and ruin the PvP, so if any of that changes has to come, please let it be the individual cooldown.

The issue is that it applies to nearly all magicka heals so you can't heal yourself properly. Magicka struggles vs stamina as is and being unable to heal would make most magicka toons useless even in groups.

This dude tested most classes and skill lines on the pts and it doesn't look too bad.
A lot of skills that have aoe elements aren't effected.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539584/i-tested-many-abilities-on-the-pts-to-see-what-they-restricted-here-are-my-results/p1