Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

Ackwalan

Calypso589 wrote: »

@ZOS_

Can we please just get some straight talk on why, after 6 years, changing how 200+ abilities work in Cyrodiil is the step that's being taken instead of literally anything else?

And all of this happening on top of the audit you've been conducting on the PvE side as well?

What? Hello?

Please. What resources do you need and why are you apparently not getting them?

It's been 6 years of trying many things. All games never stop tinkering with the core rules.

Calypso589

Ackwalan wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

@ZOS_

Can we please just get some straight talk on why, after 6 years, changing how 200+ abilities work in Cyrodiil is the step that's being taken instead of literally anything else?

And all of this happening on top of the audit you've been conducting on the PvE side as well?

What? Hello?

Please. What resources do you need and why are you apparently not getting them?

It's been 6 years of trying many things. All games never stop tinkering with the core rules.

Pretty sure what they're proposing goes a bit further than the tinkering that goes on normally over the course of an MMO's life. lol

Cmon now.

Cinbri

Regarding criteria of AoEs

If an ability is a single target ability that has an area component and has no cast time.

So cast times is one of hard restrictions, but then channels are different version of cast times, so Jabs could be unaffected by this as they are not instant cast aoe like rest.
@ZOS_RichLambert also can you consider to do test with stats reduced for 10% like it was before CP. I pretty sure additional 10% calculations on every stat on every char adding tons of unnecessary calculations.

Dusk_Coven

Rezdayn wrote: »

Please dont put this into pve....

If it goes through, changes WILL happen to PvE. Rich Lambert basically already said so.
There will definitely be SOME kind of change while they adjust things for PvP. Unless they want to start blowing up the skill lines to have PvE-only skill and PvP-only skills (which would actually be a good idea, but unlikely to happen).

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.

Cinbri

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

Xapp wrote: »

Hey, remember when Solo Queue BG's were a test?

and then forgotten about?

And class reps were telling to people "chill, it just short test".

katorga

StShoot wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Over the years, player power has grown considerably. With the addition of the Champion System, various armor/weapons sets, and changes to abilities, we have reached the stage where players - with the right build - can cast near-infinite numbers of abilities.

At launch, Cyrodiil’s processes were able to keep up with the number of AOEs cast, because most players couldn’t cast that many of them: they ran out of Magicka or Stamina, so they had to use AOEs judiciously. Over time, as player knowledge grew and regen builds grew in power, more players could cast more and more AOEs before running out of resources.

Premise: Power/resource creep is causing the performance issue.

Wouldn't the logical conclusion be to temper the power/resource creep in Cyro, via Battle Spirit, as a first test? If the problem is unlimited resources, fix the unlimited resources?

Adjusting resource regeneration across the board or for the specific abilities/sets that are causing it to over-perform in PvP seems like a better solution that completely gutting a well-beloved combat system.

its a *** lie... one patch ago they released mutiple sustain sets, i guess it wasnt a problem back than ? Moreover in no cp you cant realy sustain eternay but its still lagging af. Their fixes will not fix anything

Don't forget venomous smite, a mobile debuff on the target that has to calculate all the players within a radius of a player controlled moving object, and then calculate the damage to apply to each of them, once a second for 10 seconds.

But yeah, lets nerf 60% of the abilities in the game with a mechanic that requires even MORE server calculations.

And lets roll it out four weeks before go live.

Lamiai

Ah rethinking this and its a postive that they are finally getting to work on cryodiil however its still very frustrating to read these tests considering what they are not trying, also annoying they are low key blaming players for the current performance/ gameplay style and not the CP system, servers and previous changes that caused huge issues over the years, but no its us and our builds...ok thanks

Basic changes they should try instead which are obvious and been discussed a million times by people who play pvp. Fengrush went through it in 90 mins and came up with better ways to change how groups would function without ripping the gameplay style heart out of it.

1. Healing only goes to group members or yourself.
2. Smaller group size
3. only one heal and no layered stacking of healing.
4. Removal or rework of CP in Cyro
5. Implementing actual rewards for Cyro to encourage faction gameplay and no faction stacking/ zerging.

This line however is extremely worrying and shows a complete lack of awareness to our feedback over the years.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I really hope we our on the right track for fixes but cooldowns just seems lazy and devoid of any player feedback over the years. I really hope I am wrong though as I love this game as I am sure we all do, I suppose its a start so lets see where it goes.

Firstmep

1. Rework singe target heals, like rapid regen healing ward etc. to only apply to the caster, remove radius check and smart healing component from them.
2. Rework Aoe heals, and remove smart healing completely, instead just leave a radius check at the time the skill was cast.
3. Remove ground aoe heals, make them instead apply their hot to targets in the area, rather than having to check for every tick whos inside.
4. Profit??

MCBIZZLE300

Part of me thinks this is just zenimax's slow transition to slow combat to accomodate for people that can't press buttons fast enough. Their proposed idea and reasons for the light and heavy attack changes really shocked me. The skill delay never used to be there untill they changed the way the game communicates with the players and for me the skill delay is by far the biggest problem.

Cinbri

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

Futard

.

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

lol

looks awesome

Bashev

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

Yeah templar class should be redesigned if these changes are fully implemented.

I just dont get it why HoD is considered AoE as it heals one target. Basically it is a smart single target heal.

Cinbri

Futard wrote: »

.

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

lol

looks awesome

Best way to survive will be - stack with zerg. Best dps skill will be - coldharbour sieges

Cinbri

Bashev wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

I just dont get it why HoD is considered AoE as it heals one target. Basically it is a smart single target heal.

Coz everything that has radius check, even it single target skill, is considered as aoe per zos quote:

The ability’s initial cast requires a radius to function. This includes abilities like Breath of Life that require a radius check to fire its heal at the appropriate target.

For now it lookse like those tests will be paradise for stam specs, farming ton of AP on magicka spec opponents majority of wich wont be able to fight back.

Bashev

Cinbri wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

I just dont get it why HoD is considered AoE as it heals one target. Basically it is a smart single target heal.

Coz everything that has radius check, even it single target skill, is considered as aoe per zos quote:

The ability’s initial cast requires a radius to function. This includes abilities like Breath of Life that require a radius check to fire its heal at the appropriate target.

For now it lookse like those tests will be paradise for stam specs, farming ton of AP on magicka spec opponents majority of wich wont be able to fight back.

Basically almost every heal in the game that can be used on alies (except resto channel, warden pull and symbiosis) will have a CD of 3 seconds. Then I doubt that they can make all these skills to be locked for 3 seconds. So the skills should have their own CD, then ppl will start spamming 1 2 3 and then repeat.

Are these changes PvP only or they will be brought to PvE too if they are accepted?

merevie

That heal one makes my blood run cold. Unrealistic expectations right there...

Cinbri

Bashev wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

I just dont get it why HoD is considered AoE as it heals one target. Basically it is a smart single target heal.

Coz everything that has radius check, even it single target skill, is considered as aoe per zos quote:

The ability’s initial cast requires a radius to function. This includes abilities like Breath of Life that require a radius check to fire its heal at the appropriate target.

For now it lookse like those tests will be paradise for stam specs, farming ton of AP on magicka spec opponents majority of wich wont be able to fight back.

Basically almost every heal in the game that can be used on alies (except resto channel, warden pull and symbiosis) will have a CD of 3 seconds. Then I doubt that they can make all these skills to be locked for 3 seconds. So the skills should have their own CD, then ppl will start spamming 1 2 3 and then repeat.

Are these changes PvP only or they will be brought to PvE too if they are accepted?

Right now skills are on individual cooldowns. However having main burst heal on cooldown is same terrible as having spammable on cooldown, its complete removal of its functionality. Especially when class defense is based on spamming burst heal.
Giving me flashbacks of original Living Dark overhaul when it easily replaced Rushed Ceremony as selfcasted quasi-HoT.

Idinuse

Cinbri wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Having cooldown on spammable ability feel like overkill already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzG-t7e4y7I
You literally wont kill anyone in pvp for duration of test simply coz your main dps skill will be on cooldown. I guess light attacking someone to death.. Same for rest of tests, dont want to imagine cooldown+ramming cost.

Same stuff for survivability - when your class survivabiltiy tools are aoes and on cooldown you won't even survive unless you stacking with zerg. Drastical reduction in survivability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_zWfD70ow
So templar will be able to cast 1 Honor when enemy can land 3 Uppercauts into him..

I just dont get it why HoD is considered AoE as it heals one target. Basically it is a smart single target heal.

Coz everything that has radius check, even it single target skill, is considered as aoe per zos quote:

The ability’s initial cast requires a radius to function. This includes abilities like Breath of Life that require a radius check to fire its heal at the appropriate target.

For now it lookse like those tests will be paradise for stam specs, farming ton of AP on magicka spec opponents majority of wich wont be able to fight back.

Elder Scrolls Stamina Online™


Sadly, nothing new in that. It's this game since 2015.

Raudgrani

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. Cyrodiil is gonna be changed into either a turn based game, or a place much like Smite - with a long cooldown on everything, and relying mostly on light/heavy attacks.

If this goes through, I can safely say it's not only Templars what will suffer (how some thinks this is "templar nerf" really beats me), but it will affect a lot of classes/builds. Straight out of my nose, I would say I'd need to change my Stamplar, my Magplar, my MagDK, my StamDK, my Stamden and my Sorc. In other words, pretty much every build I have.

I haven't been really doing any PVP since late winter (except for midyear mayhem), but if this goes through - I can pretty safely say I will never return, even if the performance will be tight as a scuba divers ***-

Tigor

Futard wrote: »

Yes:
+elite2
+elite3

that's way better and certainly not an issue.

That's nostalgic.

With 3-second fuses. I hope there's no need to shoot rabbits with cannons. But if it is necessary, it will not be so laggy anymore.

GreenSoup2HoT

• Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.

I like the idea. I just don't fancy spamming. Let's put bash on a cooldown also and really grind some gears.

but seriously if server load is an issue could you not disable status effects or rework aoes to tick less but hit for more or something to make it easier on server load?

Zpook

”Grouping and zerging are not equal, you don't need to be in group to be in zerg, zerg is just a massive number of pugs who moves in similar direction.”

Same same

FatherDelve

How can we trust those changes, when we cant trust that the server is running without and "some players encounter login problems", on a daily base ?

silver1surfer69

This is all only about AOE abilities (for now). I hope it is really only the AOEs that are the problem, maybe it is not.

Unified_Gaming

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

This is all only about AOE abilities (for now). I hope it is really only the AOEs that are the problem, maybe it is not.

maybe it's roll dodge too and block? Let's add 3 second delays to those too

silver1surfer69

MCBIZZLE300 wrote: »

Part of me thinks this is just zenimax's slow transition to slow combat to accomodate for people that can't press buttons fast enough. Their proposed idea and reasons for the light and heavy attack changes really shocked me. The skill delay never used to be there untill they changed the way the game communicates with the players and for me the skill delay is by far the biggest problem.

I totally back that up. The "delayed input problem" what zos calls it themselfes is for me the biggest problem of ALL in this game too and that was introduced with the "great performance overhaul".

Major_Lag

LadyLethalla wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me how players can spam AOEs without running out of resources...?

Ballgroup sustain is insane.
During the fairly brief time when I ran with one such group in the support role, I was routinely casting Cleanse (the more expensive morph!) every 2-3 GCDs on average in high pressure situations - which, as it happened, was most of the time when we weren't riding to the next objective.

I won't go into details as to how this was accomplished - that is left as an exercise to the reader - but it all boiled down to making the most effective use of all the tools available in the game, including but not limited to: support (group sustain) sets and resource restoring synergies.

TheBinarySurfer

@ZOS_RichLambert I'm sorry but you appear to be ignoring an 'easy' fix for this and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For example; why not comment on why 'more powerful' servers are not the answer.
Another example: why not considering having the mile gates by 'loading areas' to limit lag spread?

As far as I can tell, you are looking at *drastic* solutions, that are worse than the problem itself. Yes the lag is awful; I cancelled my subscription over it.

There are dozens of videos by solo pvp youtubers on this and better ways to do it (not the 'ball group' players).

Here's a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D02k_MZTwWQ

jaws343

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait. Simple solution to Cyrodiil combat. Don't we have a series of "rock paper scissors" emotes?

davidj8291 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I don't know how much I can stress to you that this would absolutely kill group play with less than 24 in Cyrodiil, in addition to completely neutralizing several existing classes.

Unlikely. Keep in mind that they might not use a 3 second cooldown, or any cooldown beyond the global cooldown, and accomplish this via other means. Maybe cap regen and increase the AoE skill cost. Maybe casting an AoE disables regen for some duration. Maybe a cast time on the AoE skills to help prevent spamming. Maybe only allow a certain number of AoE to be active in an area at a time. All they really need to do is make it so that players don't continuously spam AoE. How they do that is an open field, and does not have to be one of the methods they test.

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

MurderMostFoul

jaws343 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Wait. Simple solution to Cyrodiil combat. Don't we have a series of "rock paper scissors" emotes?

davidj8291 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years.

I don't know how much I can stress to you that this would absolutely kill group play with less than 24 in Cyrodiil, in addition to completely neutralizing several existing classes.

Unlikely. Keep in mind that they might not use a 3 second cooldown, or any cooldown beyond the global cooldown, and accomplish this via other means. Maybe cap regen and increase the AoE skill cost. Maybe casting an AoE disables regen for some duration. Maybe a cast time on the AoE skills to help prevent spamming. Maybe only allow a certain number of AoE to be active in an area at a time. All they really need to do is make it so that players don't continuously spam AoE. How they do that is an open field, and does not have to be one of the methods they test.

Another solution they could do is to rework AOE skills similar to Blastbones. Make it so that you can only have 1 of each type of AOE skill up for the duration of that skill. Drop a ground based AOE and you can't drop another ground based on until it expires. Cast a player based AOE and it has to expire before you can cast another. Instant AOE skills, like jabs or whirlwind would still be spammable. And for something like Purge, you could change it from an instant removal of effects to removing 1 effect every second for 5 seconds or something. That way it still has the power to clear negative effects, but it works over time and wouldn't be able to be recast until the effect ends.

This 100%.

Look at Sub Assault. Many AOEs could be reworked to function as "skill shots" like Sub Assault does.

-Cast the skill
-The occurrence of the AOE effect is delayed (2-3 secs)
-If recast before the occurrence of the AOE, the delay is reset and the first cast never goes off.

You can cast it as many times as you like (no cooldown, no ramping costs), but you will reduce the frequency of the AOE effect.