Revert Faction Locks. We've Been Through This Already

bulbousb16_ESO

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

he listed his example as proof that atleast some People when faced with such a Question that is essentially 2 Questions only answer one despite thinking that their answer actually is sufficient to answer both.

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

Marcus684

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

Wow. Nice elitist attitude. “I’m smarter than you so your opinion doesn’t matter.” That person chose to answer your question in that manner for reasons of their own, and in my opinion does nothing to indicate their IQ. You’re engaging in a fallacy that presumes that those that disagree with you are less intelligent.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

Sanguinor2

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

Again, both parts werent answered, playing all characters and having characters in 3 alliances doesnt say anything About the amount of characters one has.
If you dont want to answer that thats fine, you do not have to answer every Question and no one on the Forum can force you to answer a particular Question which you do not want to answer no matter what your reason for not answering is.
That doesnt Change that this part of the Question was not answered sufficiently regardless of the reason why you did not want to answer (assuming you are said "certain vocal Player" Apollo mentioned).

IronWooshu

InvictusApollo wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ks888 wrote: »

@IronWooshu this was when faction locks still existed man - it didn't work then, not gonna work now because, again, there is less overall PvP pop. I feel like I am speaking some alien language over here. How can I explain this in a way you might understand?

On another note: you know what the biggest joke about all this is, all these complaints of why faction lock is a mistake where NEVER an issue before 1T because you never experienced the freedom to know the difference before 1T as you did the last few years.

So in saying this, this whole "it didnt work before" schtick is a joke.

Then I guess if you had never tasted freedom, then was given it, and then got enslaved again, you wouldn't complain about it. Because that is your logic here. It is fundamentally flawed. You are basically saying that one cannot judge a past solution when shown a new and better solution. Another fallacy in your statement is the fact that before T1 people did see that pvp has issues with ballance between factions. Lifting faction lock has almost entirely eliminated that problem.

No. It created more problems. Stop living in denile and your summary of what I said is completely wrong especially of who my reply was too.

The more I debate it in this thread the more I realize the denile of the anti faction lock people. Throwing words around like fallacy and illogical when they themselves are so misguided.

Hashtag_

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

Again, both parts werent answered, playing all characters and having characters in 3 alliances doesnt say anything About the amount of characters one has.
If you dont want to answer that thats fine, you do not have to answer every Question and no one on the Forum can force you to answer a particular Question which you do not want to answer no matter what your reason for not answering is.
That doesnt Change that this part of the Question was not answered sufficiently regardless of the reason why you did not want to answer (assuming you are said "certain vocal Player" Apollo mentioned).

He’s been asked similar questions. Refuses to answer. From what I hear about him in game he’s a winning side kind of guy.

Siohwenoeht

Hashtag_ wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

Again, both parts werent answered, playing all characters and having characters in 3 alliances doesnt say anything About the amount of characters one has.
If you dont want to answer that thats fine, you do not have to answer every Question and no one on the Forum can force you to answer a particular Question which you do not want to answer no matter what your reason for not answering is.
That doesnt Change that this part of the Question was not answered sufficiently regardless of the reason why you did not want to answer (assuming you are said "certain vocal Player" Apollo mentioned).

He’s been asked similar questions. Refuses to answer. From what I hear about him in game he’s a winning side kind of guy.

Yes, he does like to take only the pieces of comments that suit his purpose, then ignore the rest. It's really too bad since it only serves to divide the community further. There absolutely needs to be equal campaigns for both sides of the debate, period. There are reasonable people that like faction locks, not just yahoos.

Sanguinor2

Hashtag_ wrote: »

He’s been asked similar questions. Refuses to answer. From what I hear about him in game he’s a winning side kind of guy.

Yeah its fine if he does not want to answer but if he refuses to he should not act as if he did answer…...

bulbousb16_ESO

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be equal campaigns for both sides of the debate, period.

No, there absolutely does not. A playstyle that is detrimental to the game has been identified, and it needs to be quashed. Some people will be necessarily hurt by this, but you don't fork the servers every time you need to make a change. Every time the developers identify something that needs correction (i.e. a nerf), that will put off some people, but they don't make servers with the old system just to accommodate those dissenters.

[Edit to remove political content]

Siohwenoeht

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be equal campaigns for both sides of the debate, period.

No, there absolutely does not. A playstyle that is detrimental to the game has been identified, and it needs to be quashed. Some people will be necessarily hurt by this, but you don't fork the servers every time you need to make a change. Every time the developers identify something that needs correction (i.e. a nerf), that will put off some people, but they don't make servers with the old system just to accommodate those dissenters.

If we want the game to have a healthy population overall, zos should accommodate as many playstyles as possible. If you play on a locked campaign, while someone else plays on an unlocked campaign, neither of you affect the other one. There's no downside to playstyle options in a GAME.

[Edit to remove bait]

AhPook_Is_Here

This thread needs better platitudes and cliches; I'm getting bored. Can someone call someone else 'unhinged' again? That one never gets old. And what about the server 'ecology', and the 'health' of the game? I'd like to read more about that. Lets quantify some more qualitative arguments!

Sandman929

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

This thread needs better platitudes and cliches; I'm getting bored. Can someone call someone else 'unhinged' again? That one never gets old. And what about the server 'ecology', and the 'health' of the game? I'd like to read more about that. Lets quantify some more qualitative arguments!

Would it help if I make a claim and say that everyone I know agrees with me?

Hollerboller

Marcus684 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

Wow. Nice elitist attitude. “I’m smarter than you so your opinion doesn’t matter.” That person chose to answer your question in that manner for reasons of their own, and in my opinion does nothing to indicate their IQ. You’re engaging in a fallacy that presumes that those that disagree with you are less intelligent.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

That guy has a Superiority complex without any doubt. The simple and harsh truth of reality.

Dominion_Nightblade

How about we get rid of all three factions, start two new ones, call them "hoppers" & "lockers" and take this conversation outside.

AhPook_Is_Here

Sandman929 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

This thread needs better platitudes and cliches; I'm getting bored. Can someone call someone else 'unhinged' again? That one never gets old. And what about the server 'ecology', and the 'health' of the game? I'd like to read more about that. Lets quantify some more qualitative arguments!

Would it help if I make a claim and say that everyone I know agrees with me?

I think you are on the right track! The more A=B, B=C :. F we can get going here the better!

ellahellabella

Marcus684 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

Called it!

josh.lackey_ESO

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

he listed his example as proof that atleast some People when faced with such a Question that is essentially 2 Questions only answer one despite thinking that their answer actually is sufficient to answer both.

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

So do you play them in PvP? In PvE all characters are explicitly multi-faction because of the main story. The faction that you picked when you started the game is only your starting faction, and then only for the base game.

Faction is only relevant for Cyrodiil. PvE is factionless.

If you only play on locked servers, it's actually impossible for you to play all three factions.

kringled_1

technohic wrote: »

Well; one way we can see roughly what the overall population of factions is log in with a fresh character and see where they are on the scoreboard.

Logging in to DC with a fresh toon, and do just enough AP to register and I am at 152 on the emporor leader board.

There is something buggy about that leader board placement. The number it generates on that easy to get to screen is almost always in the 100s for me but if I go to the full leaderboard I'm far lower.

Miriel

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

he listed his example as proof that atleast some People when faced with such a Question that is essentially 2 Questions only answer one despite thinking that their answer actually is sufficient to answer both.

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

So do you play them in PvP? In PvE all characters are explicitly multi-faction because of the main story. The faction that you picked when you started the game is only your starting faction, and then only for the base game.

Faction is only relevant for Cyrodiil. PvE is factionless.

If you only play on locked servers, it's actually impossible for you to play all three factions.

Yes, everyone is same faction, so there is no war... in fact Queen Ayren, did the story also, and is High King Emeric and Jorun for the EP... talk about split personality conflict...

If we are all sides. there wouldetn be a conflict in the first place... the chicken and the egg you know... there been alot of efforts trying to revert faction locks, but i think your win in stupid..

At this point, we need to stop trying to try point fingers, and figure out how to make the best of the situaiton, we that want faction locks aint going back, so how do we in the best fashion split the player base so people can play on faction locked campigns, and people wanting to faction hop can do that also...

disintegr8

I'm just waiting to see which alliance takes the lead before I commit myself to a campaign.....

Miriel

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'm just waiting to see which alliance takes the lead before I commit myself to a campaign.....

why accroding to josh we are all the same, there is no faction, its all just the same lol...there never was a war, its all just a illusion

Miriel

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

he listed his example as proof that atleast some People when faced with such a Question that is essentially 2 Questions only answer one despite thinking that their answer actually is sufficient to answer both.

The question was asked, and both parts were answered completely. I identified that I have characters in ALL alliances, answering without any ambiguity. The exact number of characters I have in each alliance is not relevant to the discussion and moreover is private information. The only relevant factor is that I do indeed have characters in every alliance, and I do play them all.

So do you play them in PvP? In PvE all characters are explicitly multi-faction because of the main story. The faction that you picked when you started the game is only your starting faction, and then only for the base game.

Faction is only relevant for Cyrodiil. PvE is factionless.

If you only play on locked servers, it's actually impossible for you to play all three factions.

this is what caldwell tells you...

-"Caldwell has approached me and offered me an chance to see how events might have played out if I'd washed up on the shores of a different alliance after escaping Coldharbour"

its all a hyphotetical event that might have happened IF...

Dutchessx

ellahellabella wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

Called it!

Your right but it has been that way for a while with people referring to their guilds as “loyalist” and then everyone else not stating their preference.

#FreeNoCP

aetherial_heavenn

Hashtag_ wrote: »

Class representative @Joy_Division cites otherwise. Please show me the raw data that ZOS has provided to show us the numbers supported it?

'Fallacious appeal to authority'

Marcus684

ellahellabella wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

Called it!

Please explain.

ellahellabella

Marcus684 wrote: »

ellahellabella wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Saying that majority of people wanted faction locks because "majority of people on forum wanted that" is a fallacy.
Actually there are multiple fallacies.
First of all you have no access to forum statistics and thus are unable to make any claims using the word "majority".
Second of all forum members are hardly a representative sample of all players.
Third of all the notion that what majority wants is the best solution, is fundamentally flawed. One look at IQ distribution is all it takes to see that majority of any population hardly has enough cognitive capability to make a decision requiring processing multiple factors.
Do you want an example? I've recently asked a certain vocal player: "How many pvp characters do you have and in which alliances are they?"
And he responded: "I have characters in each alliance and I play them all."
Yes. You see it correctly. The question asked for two pieces of information, yet the answer contained only one. That is how low and average IQ people responded to me my whole life. Every single high IQ person I have ever questioned (and I work with a lot of them and know a lot of them), allways has given full answer, providing values for all variables.
Low and average IQ people simply do not have mental capacity to process more than one or maybe two ideas at a time.
Since decision making requires processing multiple entry points, ideas and corellations and connections between them, only high IQ people are capable of efficiently and effectively making sophisticated decisions. Thats the harsh truth about reality.

These faction lock discussions have all degenerated to the level of everyone repeatedly restating their opinions, with very little evidence to support them, and serve no purpose except to further inflame and divide the PvP community.

Called it!

Please explain.

Oh you might be on mobile. That's literally in my signature.

Spacefish2323

The removal of faction lock allowed me to roll some DC alts to play with new friends I made after One Tamriel. Now we can't PvP together unless I choose to shelf my main of 5 years from CP Cyrodiil for a month. There are alternative campaigns to play, yes. But people like me had something, and it was now taken away. I don't think that is ever going to get a positive reaction.

DisgracefulMind

Miriel wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'm just waiting to see which alliance takes the lead before I commit myself to a campaign.....

why accroding to josh we are all the same, there is no faction, its all just the same lol...there never was a war, its all just a illusion

went over your head, didn't it?

MipMip

Sandman929 wrote: »

As I've said before, I've only got DC characters, so I'm immune to faction locks changes. However, I also hate playing in ridiculous lag and disconnects, so I don't currently play the 30 (even though I home it) on console, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to after the console update either.
So the faction lock stuff potentially won't even do me a favor, as a faction loyal player, because the problem for me is the dog-piling on one campaign during NA prime time that makes it a chore to get in and play and a headache to play once I'm in

Thanks for pointing this out. Introducing faction locks in their present form has been such a bad decision for the community as a whole.

Sandman929 wrote: »

ZOS removed enforced faction loyalty from Cyrodiil a long time ago, and it is incredibly unfair to backtrack on that with no recourse for those that embraced it.
No CP players have no options.
CP players who multifaction have no options that they like.

Yes, this is not the product that I purchased when I (re-)subbed.

I hope ZOS will revert the current faction locks and offer a better solution. Many options have been suggested on this and other threads.

ks888

My time on EP yesterday was spent a little like this:

A) sit and twiddle my thumbs at the gate for a bit until EP stops gating DC or
our group literally has to make decisions on where to go that won't help EP further destroy the map, thus giving us not many fun fights in the process (the whole reason why most of my buddies on EP play)
C) log off

Before the reinstated faction locks our group could have hopped on low pop DC to challenge the PvDoor zerg that is daytime EP. At least that would have given DC 8 more players to their 2-3 bars vs pop locked EP and pop locked AD.

For those of you that support faction lock - tell me how it's "fun" and enjoyable gameplay to be in a PvP zone but not actually have any PvP fights? Is it that you prefer easy mode? Because that's what is happening now. All sides are guilty of it and it seems the faction hoppers are the only ones willing to try to do anything to balance the map when we can. Even with faction locks in place, the faction hoppers are the ones I see not pushing past certain spots on the map (at least on a semi-regular basis).

It's one thing to hit a back keep because you want aggro and people to fight. It's another to keep hitting back keeps after your opponent has lost both of their scrolls and you're 10, 20, 30 vs 1, 2, 5 players that just want someplace to spawn past their gates. I've pulled some jerk moves on occasion, but this is now a daily occurrence.

In my opinion, you can't call yourself a PvPer or a PvP guild if you're not fighting other players in a fashion that at least gives your opponent some odds at winning the fight.

technohic

ks888 wrote: »

My time on EP yesterday was spent a little like this:

A) sit and twiddle my thumbs at the gate for a bit until EP stops gating DC or
our group literally has to make decisions on where to go that won't help EP further destroy the map, thus giving us not many fun fights in the process (the whole reason why most of my buddies on EP play)
C) log off

Before the reinstated faction locks our group could have hopped on low pop DC to challenge the PvDoor zerg that is daytime EP. At least that would have given DC 8 more players to their 2-3 bars vs pop locked EP and pop locked AD.

For those of you that support faction lock - tell me how it's "fun" and enjoyable gameplay to be in a PvP zone but not actually have any PvP fights? Is it that you prefer easy mode? Because that's what is happening now. All sides are guilty of it and it seems the faction hoppers are the only ones willing to try to do anything to balance the map when we can. Even with faction locks in place, the faction hoppers are the ones I see not pushing past certain spots on the map (at least on a semi-regular basis).

It's one thing to hit a back keep because you want aggro and people to fight. It's another to keep hitting back keeps after your opponent has lost both of their scrolls and you're 10, 20, 30 vs 1, 2, 5 players that just want someplace to spawn past their gates. I've pulled some jerk moves on occasion, but this is now a daily occurrence.

In my opinion, you can't call yourself a PvPer or a PvP guild if you're not fighting other players in a fashion that at least gives your opponent some odds at winning the fight.

I assume a lot of them are in that EP faction stack of the potato zerg. I actually have a nice video of whiping them last night for a juicy tic. Maybe I should do it up, not to show them (I mean, by all means, everyones new at the start, I just wish they wouldn't crush the server so much), but the fights that DC can find and those tasty 9k tics. Really would be putting lipstick on a pig though as its often not like that and more frustrating to show up to being gated and seemingly less than 20 DC willing to try to fight out from there.