How to fix Jewelry Crafting

Taleof2Cities

I already outlined an easy way to accumulate zircon, @rustle911, using Alliance Points.

If you use the forums search feature every once in awhile, you might find a few ways to improve your QOL.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5611374#Comment_5611374

rustle911

@Taleof2Cities while that is definitely a creative way of doing things, the “easy way” is different from player to player. I hate PvP. Even when I do well, which is seldom, I hate doing it. I don’t build my characters for it. Getting AP has never been easy for me. I do BGs because I get rewarded with transmute crystals and bonus XP. PvP to me is a chore that I must do to unlock certain skills necessary for PvE. I don’t, and doubt I ever will enjoy PvP. While I applaud thinking outside the box, that solution isn’t for everyone, and it shouldn’t need to be. Also, if I am accumulating all those Alliance Points, shouldn’t I just hoard them to spend at The Golden. Need to justify that AP sink right?

Edit: this thought probably belongs in another forum, but I thought I’d add it since it does speak exactly to the zircon solution that @Taleof2Cities uses.

Additional thought on that. Anything I do or need to do in a PvP zone is not an improvement to my quality of life. Getting killed while shopping at village vendors, or getting/turning in quests by players who don’t give a rats ass whether or not I’m there to fight other players or to complete content is not on my list of things that make ESO fun.

Taleof2Cities

rustle911 wrote: »

Additional thought on that. Anything I do or need to do in a PvP zone is not an improvement to my quality of life. Getting killed while shopping at village vendors, or getting/turning in quests by players who don’t give a rats ass whether or not I’m there to fight other players or to complete content is not on my list of things that make ESO fun.

Not participating in PvP is totally your choice, @rustle911 ... I don’t think anyone one disagrees with that.

However, the disagreement starts when players start asking for improvements to the jewelry crafting system and buffing platings drops ... when said players are purposely avoiding game content that yields those drops in the first place.

ZOS shares that same view. To get the most out of the game, you’ll have to be willing to play all types of content ... and not ask for a handout.

Starlock

rustle911 wrote: »

Exactly, zircon is the bottleneck. It’s the largest pain point for jewelry upgrades, and JC in general.

Yup, it's pretty bad. The grain system throws it entirely out of whack relative to the other gear crafting professions and it is worst for zircon. Once I realized I couldn't reliably craft purple jewelry (or even blue jewelry!) by putting in the same work (yes, work - enough with the foolery of claiming we're asking for handouts, please) I do for all my other professions, I gave up on jewelry crafting.

FlopsyPrince

I have to PvP to get a key part of the game? I HATE it when MMOs do things like that. I will always suck at PvP. Forcing it on me to get a key part of non-PvP is as bad as forcing non-PvP on those who like PvP, even worse.

This discussion has continued the grand tradition of maligning anyone wanting an MMO mechanic changed as a desire to get free stuff handed to them. Then others (or the same ones) jump in with how great it is working for them and you should just do the same or do without if you don't want to do that.

Tmbrinks,

I am amazed that you can be so helpful in some replies and so off base in the ones on this topic.

You have yet to make a solid case why jewelry should be so radically different from the other crafting and yet you continue with that line. Though I expect arguing with you about it is fruitless, which is why so many don't do so.

I am not convinced just as many people like jewelry the way it is. I would bet most players don't like it, but don't spend much time thinking about it because they can't control it. Some do like it, but they are more limited and tend to be a bit more vocal, making it seem more equivalent.

I don't see much changing, but it is one of those annoying "straws" that could break the back of some game players. WoW finally killed it for me in a similar way, after ultimately chipping away at my support. I hope ESO doesn't do that, but something like this (the state of jewelry) is not a good trend.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I have to PvP to get a key part of the game? I HATE it when MMOs do things like that. I will always suck at PvP. Forcing it on me to get a key part of non-PvP is as bad as forcing non-PvP on those who like PvP, even worse.

This discussion has continued the grand tradition of maligning anyone wanting an MMO mechanic changed as a desire to get free stuff handed to them. Then others (or the same ones) jump in with how great it is working for them and you should just do the same or do without if you don't want to do that.

Tmbrinks,

I am amazed that you can be so helpful in some replies and so off base in the ones on this topic.

You have yet to make a solid case why jewelry should be so radically different from the other crafting and yet you continue with that line. Though I expect arguing with you about it is fruitless, which is why so many don't do so.

I am not convinced just as many people like jewelry the way it is. I would bet most players don't like it, but don't spend much time thinking about it because they can't control it. Some do like it, but they are more limited and tend to be a bit more vocal, making it seem more equivalent.

I don't see much changing, but it is one of those annoying "straws" that could break the back of some game players. WoW finally killed it for me in a similar way, after ultimately chipping away at my support. I hope ESO doesn't do that, but something like this (the state of jewelry) is not a good trend.

To be honest, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are maligning me (and others) because my opinion is different than yours on this matter.

Jewelry crafting is different because ZoS wants it so be different, that has been stated by them. I am personally mostly okay with how they have implemented it (Zircon needs some work, Master writs are a mess). That has been all I've been saying.

Can somebody honestly answer for me why there can't be one thing that is "special" about crafting, why do they need to be homogeneous? It's true in the real world... It takes a lot more skill to make a gold necklace than it does to make a shirt. Why can't the game simulate that same difference in craftsmanship and skill, by making one more difficult to obtain?

I have offered suggestions galore about small changes that could happen that could make the system better, such as
* a hireling to increase Zircon grains...
* increasing the values of jewelry master writs by another 50% (although I'm sure ZoS doesn't want the flood of vouchers that would bring to the game, as that'd lower the price of the vouchers even more, make the other 6 crafts' master writs less valuable too)
* increasing the drop rate of Chromium grains to be in line with the other crafts (seems to be 50% less than Kuta/Rosin/Wax/Alloy (20% vs 30%))
but nobody says a damn thing about those, but instead call me out as an "elitist", "rich guy who just wants to make money", "malinger", etc... just because I don't share your same view. I like that it's special, I like that the easiest way to get gold jewelry is to run trials on veteran. If you can't or don't want to do those, then Jewelry Crafting is here as an alternative way to achieve the same goal.

I honestly, truly fear, that the end-game raid community could completely dry up if they made it so that it was as easy to get gold jewelry as many here want it to be (we're already a small group). People would not push themselves in the game to get to the level where they can complete veteran trial content, come to find out they actually enjoy it, and join that community. It's already small, it's not a large portion of the player base, I get that... but if we lose out on people joining it because they never tried, because they were able to get their gear from running a normal trial, and then quickly and easily upgrading it, it could end, and that would be the end of the game for me personally. That is what I play this game for. Would that for sure happen... I don't know, but I'm sure there would be some people who might never even try.

Does that answer your question about why I am okay with the way it is? I have stated my reasons loud and clear. I have offered other suggestions that are outright dismissed that would certainly make the system easier, but not nerf it into the absolute ground.

rustle911

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jewelry crafting is different because ZoS wants it so be different, that has been stated by them. I am personally mostly okay with how they have implemented it (Zircon needs some work, Master writs are a mess). That has been all I've been saying.

Can somebody honestly answer for me why there can't be one thing that is "special" about crafting, why do they need to be homogeneous? It's true in the real world... It takes a lot more skill to make a gold necklace than it does to make a shirt. Why can't the game simulate that same difference in craftsmanship and skill, by making one more difficult to obtain?

I have offered suggestions galore about small changes that could happen that could make the system better, such as
* a hireling to increase Zircon grains...
* increasing the values of jewelry master writs by another 50% (although I'm sure ZoS doesn't want the flood of vouchers that would bring to the game, as that'd lower the price of the vouchers even more, make the other 6 crafts' master writs less valuable too)
* increasing the drop rate of Chromium grains to be in line with the other crafts (seems to be 50% less than Kuta/Rosin/Wax/Alloy (20% vs 30%))
but nobody says a damn thing about those, but instead call me out as an "elitist", "rich guy who just wants to make money", "malinger", etc... just because I don't share your same view. I like that it's special, I like that the easiest way to get gold jewelry is to run trials on veteran. If you can't or don't want to do those, then Jewelry Crafting is here as an alternative way to achieve the same goal.

I honestly, truly fear, that the end-game raid community could completely dry up if they made it so that it was as easy to get gold jewelry as many here want it to be (we're already a small group). People would not push themselves in the game to get to the level where they can complete veteran trial content, come to find out they actually enjoy it, and join that community. It's already small, it's not a large portion of the player base, I get that... but if we lose out on people joining it because they never tried, because they were able to get their gear from running a normal trial, and then quickly and easily upgrading it, it could end, and that would be the end of the game for me personally. That is what I play this game for. Would that for sure happen... I don't know, but I'm sure there would be some people who might never even try.

Does that answer your question about why I am okay with the way it is? I have stated my reasons loud and clear. I have offered other suggestions that are outright dismissed that would certainly make the system easier, but not nerf it into the absolute ground.

I must have missed the thread or post where you made most of those suggestions. Increasing the value of the master writs will probably not change how many get done as the materials to do them are still too scarce to justify the effort. It may be because I have limited hours to play the game, but I do writs based on my existing inventory and knowledge. Through regular gameplay I acquire the materials needed to do most master writs. At times I may have to go out of my way to find a motif, but that is seldom and I acquire most motifs, if not while playing, at vendors when I’m down to a couple pages left as work towards my MC achievement.
I’ve always wanted jewelry hireling, on that we agree.
I don’t ever remember you stating that there needed to be a change in drop rates. In fact, you argued with me against changing that very thing in a different thread. It could be that I believe drop rates need to be adjusted on all grains and you only see a need for a change to chromium, but I am all for either removing grains entirely, or increasing their drop rates.
If you want to imitate real life when it comes to the difference in making a shirt versus making a necklace, then rather than choke the materials, they should’ve made it harder to learn. Lower inspiration, increased research times, or, if you are dead set on choking the supply, choke it by reducing nodes. I know a couple of real life jewelers personally. They couldn’t build a simple table to save their lives.
Gold jewelry isn’t going to change who does end game trials. The biggest problem with endgame content is accessibility. Time required to obtain gear through normal trials, time required to practice rotations, time and materials required to test or create a build that meets an individual’s play style, and lastly, time and power to complete the trials. I’ve owned the game since it launched on console. I run trials with players that have owned the game for half as long as I have, but have put in significantly more hours. They have more free time to play. I am not good/practiced enough to pull off the 35-49k dps needed for vet DLC trials. Gold jewelry, whether I upgraded it or it was dropped, isnt going to change that fact.
Getting the gear that people want me to have to be “allowed” to participate is only one part of the problem. There’s nothing worse than having to walk away from a vet dungeon that activity finder dropped me into, after 2 hours because people aren’t queueing in their proper role, or someone(sometimes me) can’t do enough dps to make it past a boss, or survive a mechanic.
If ZoS wants more people to participate, then the content can’t seem like such an impossible task. And you know what? Those who lack ability, seek gear. If you hide the gear behind what seems impossible, then they seek another avenue, which was why so many people wanted JC to begin with.
I will go back to my original premise, ZoS didn’t want us to have JC. Rather than give us what we wanted, a viable way to craft and improve jewelry in the same way that we craft weapons and armor, they gave us a ridiculous grind. Here’s your jewelry crafting, we hope you choke on it. There was enough of an uproar initially that they made changes, but those changes didn’t fix some of the fundamental issues of resource availability, and as a byproduct, crafting/upgrade viability.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing a 15-20% lower drop rate, at the same or slightly higher upgrade costs of other crafting skills, and a removal of the grains system. Or an increase in drop rates of grains to about 400% of other improvement materials.

I’ll end my overly long novel with this:
I like crafting. I put a lot of time into making my characters capable of doing something that a decent amount of people in this game ignore. It’s a feature that allows someone who isn’t as skilled a player to have an accomplishment that others don’t. Even at this stage in the games lifespan, I’m surprised at how many people I get to help out because I can craft any item with any trait. I just want to be able to do that and get better at doing harder content, not have to sacrifice one for the other, which is how jewelry crafting makes me feel. You may think my statement is absurd, but when I have to wait months to get a gold piece of jewelry I want from the Golden, and miss it because of work, and now have to spend a month grinding for the gold or materials to upgrade the dropped piece I have, I think that’s absurd.

idk

Cortimi wrote: »

First: the "grain" thing. This is awful, and absurd. The reasoning given for it was to make JC "elite", bit it really just comes off as a way to punish players.

Your wording is great for your purpose, but I believe Zos expressed it more along the lines that they want jewelry crafting to be more special. Not as common as the other crafts.

So with this your premise that JC needs to be "fixed" would fall flat on Zos' ears. They do not consider it broken so it does not need to be fixed.

Essentially, you would need to convince them of a different path, not that they build broken things if you really want to get their attention.

tmbrinks

rustle911 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Jewelry crafting is different because ZoS wants it so be different, that has been stated by them. I am personally mostly okay with how they have implemented it (Zircon needs some work, Master writs are a mess). That has been all I've been saying.

Can somebody honestly answer for me why there can't be one thing that is "special" about crafting, why do they need to be homogeneous? It's true in the real world... It takes a lot more skill to make a gold necklace than it does to make a shirt. Why can't the game simulate that same difference in craftsmanship and skill, by making one more difficult to obtain?

I have offered suggestions galore about small changes that could happen that could make the system better, such as
* a hireling to increase Zircon grains...
* increasing the values of jewelry master writs by another 50% (although I'm sure ZoS doesn't want the flood of vouchers that would bring to the game, as that'd lower the price of the vouchers even more, make the other 6 crafts' master writs less valuable too)
* increasing the drop rate of Chromium grains to be in line with the other crafts (seems to be 50% less than Kuta/Rosin/Wax/Alloy (20% vs 30%))
but nobody says a damn thing about those, but instead call me out as an "elitist", "rich guy who just wants to make money", "malinger", etc... just because I don't share your same view. I like that it's special, I like that the easiest way to get gold jewelry is to run trials on veteran. If you can't or don't want to do those, then Jewelry Crafting is here as an alternative way to achieve the same goal.

I honestly, truly fear, that the end-game raid community could completely dry up if they made it so that it was as easy to get gold jewelry as many here want it to be (we're already a small group). People would not push themselves in the game to get to the level where they can complete veteran trial content, come to find out they actually enjoy it, and join that community. It's already small, it's not a large portion of the player base, I get that... but if we lose out on people joining it because they never tried, because they were able to get their gear from running a normal trial, and then quickly and easily upgrading it, it could end, and that would be the end of the game for me personally. That is what I play this game for. Would that for sure happen... I don't know, but I'm sure there would be some people who might never even try.

Does that answer your question about why I am okay with the way it is? I have stated my reasons loud and clear. I have offered other suggestions that are outright dismissed that would certainly make the system easier, but not nerf it into the absolute ground.

I must have missed the thread or post where you made most of those suggestions. Increasing the value of the master writs will probably not change how many get done as the materials to do them are still too scarce to justify the effort. It may be because I have limited hours to play the game, but I do writs based on my existing inventory and knowledge. Through regular gameplay I acquire the materials needed to do most master writs. At times I may have to go out of my way to find a motif, but that is seldom and I acquire most motifs, if not while playing, at vendors when I’m down to a couple pages left as work towards my MC achievement.

I completely disagree. If the OP's suggestion to get rid of grains and replace with drops of platings, that will reduce the cost to do by a factor of 10. The "cheapest" of the jewelry master writs will become the cheapest ones to do of all the crafting writs. On PC/NA the 400+ voucher master writs are only 900g a voucher to do, this would reduce them to 90g/voucher. The "best" of the other crafts bottom out at about 250g/voucher to complete.

I’ve always wanted jewelry hireling, on that we agree.

This is how you up the rate of Zircon drops... purple mats drop ALL the time in hireling mails.. between 15 characters I get between 7-10 a day from them. That's nearly a plating a day

I don’t ever remember you stating that there needed to be a change in drop rates. In fact, you argued with me against changing that very thing in a different thread. It could be that I believe drop rates need to be adjusted on all grains and you only see a need for a change to chromium, but I am all for either removing grains entirely, or increasing their drop rates.

then you haven't read my posts. I've clearly stated it numerous times. As far as your "quip" that I only want to change Chromium... please see above (as well as other posts) I am only referring to the drop rates from doing writs, the random chance you have of getting gold improvement materials. The drop rates from refining are identical across all crafts.

If you want to imitate real life when it comes to the difference in making a shirt versus making a necklace, then rather than choke the materials, they should’ve made it harder to learn. Lower inspiration, increased research times, or, if you are dead set on choking the supply, choke it by reducing nodes. I know a couple of real life jewelers personally. They couldn’t build a simple table to save their lives.

I thought about that as well. Because they wanted it "special" they had to make it more difficult in some way. They chose doing a grain system. The end result is the same, regardless of how they got there.

Gold jewelry isn’t going to change who does end game trials. The biggest problem with endgame content is accessibility. Time required to obtain gear through normal trials, time required to practice rotations, time and materials required to test or create a build that meets an individual’s play style, and lastly, time and power to complete the trials. I’ve owned the game since it launched on console. I run trials with players that have owned the game for half as long as I have, but have put in significantly more hours. They have more free time to play. I am not good/practiced enough to pull off the 35-49k dps needed for vet DLC trials. Gold jewelry, whether I upgraded it or it was dropped, isnt going to change that fact.

I was referring to the person who agrees that JC is a "grind", doesn't want to do it, decided to join in on some vet Craglorn trials to get IA/Mending/AY gear so they can run their build, and found out that they actually enjoyed doing that content, and thus is willing to spend the time to get good in trials and mechanics, because that's a part of the game they want to explore. It's a niche argument, I know, but the end-game raid community is small, we need as many in as we want.

Getting the gear that people want me to have to be “allowed” to participate is only one part of the problem. There’s nothing worse than having to walk away from a vet dungeon that activity finder dropped me into, after 2 hours because people aren’t queueing in their proper role, or someone(sometimes me) can’t do enough dps to make it past a boss, or survive a mechanic.
If ZoS wants more people to participate, then the content can’t seem like such an impossible task. And you know what? Those who lack ability, seek gear. If you hide the gear behind what seems impossible, then they seek another avenue, which was why so many people wanted JC to begin with.

The gear isn't "impossible", it's "difficult" and as stated there are numerous sources. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with the group finder, but that's an argument for another thread.

I will go back to my original premise, ZoS didn’t want us to have JC. Rather than give us what we wanted, a viable way to craft and improve jewelry in the same way that we craft weapons and armor, they gave us a ridiculous grind. Here’s your jewelry crafting, we hope you choke on it. There was enough of an uproar initially that they made changes, but those changes didn’t fix some of the fundamental issues of resource availability, and as a byproduct, crafting/upgrade viability.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing a 15-20% lower drop rate, at the same or slightly higher upgrade costs of other crafting skills, and a removal of the grains system. Or an increase in drop rates of grains to about 400% of other improvement materials.

If they were to do this, they would then also have to retroactively change the master writs that are out there, or else they'd flood the economy. As 450 vouchers for what it would cost in work/effort/gold in this scenario would be absurdly cheap.

I’ll end my overly long novel with this:
I like crafting. I put a lot of time into making my characters capable of doing something that a decent amount of people in this game ignore. It’s a feature that allows someone who isn’t as skilled a player to have an accomplishment that others don’t. Even at this stage in the games lifespan, I’m surprised at how many people I get to help out because I can craft any item with any trait. I just want to be able to do that and get better at doing harder content, not have to sacrifice one for the other, which is how jewelry crafting makes me feel. You may think my statement is absurd, but when I have to wait months to get a gold piece of jewelry I want from the Golden, and miss it because of work, and now have to spend a month grinding for the gold or materials to upgrade the dropped piece I have, I think that’s absurd.

Gold gear isn't going to help you get better at doing content. That comes with practice. Time spent in front of a dummy, practicing your rotation, getting in dungeons, trials, seeing the mechanics. Watching videos posted to learn those mechanics. The gear is the least important part. If you are score pushing, or doing the latest content (think vBRP, vCR+3) then yes, you may need the gold gear. Otherwise, focus on the mechanics, the rotation, that is significantly more important. The gear will come. As far as missing the golden.. that's life. I've missed things there over the years too because of life.

Feric51

Quite possibly the main reason behind jewelry crafting being so much more of a grind is as simple as: The Golden.

There is no place in the game where you can buy gold armor or weapons. They rely on The Golden as part of various gold sink mechanisms throughout the game. You can argue that it probably among the most inefficient gold sinks since it is controlled by RNG and more often than not the weekly offerings are so lackluster that almost nobody is buying any, but it still a gold sink nonetheless.

If I could refine 8 stacks of platinum (assuming we do away with grains and go back to full 2/3/4/8 platings for improvement) and get the necessary platings to make my gold Juliano's necklace, or improve a mother's sorrow ring to gold after effectively picking up 4 jewelry surveys, then it would make The Golden completely pointless.


Perhaps a better comparison would be if they started allowing the crafting of monster helms/shoulders. Let's say ZOS starts issuing some type of "Undaunted Essence" that drops occasionally from final boss of normal dungeons, always on vet, and x2 on vet hardmode. Do you think it should only require one essence to be able to craft a monster helm/shoulder? Or, would 10, 25, or even 50 be more in line with being able to bypass a certain content and The Golden RNG?

Jewelry crafting is simply a mechanism to avoid certain mechanics of the game. Do I like it? No, I do not. But, it is what we were given and after almost a full year I don't think it has demonstrated that it makes such a gamebreaking difference for those who can afford to do it, and those who do not want to suffer the grind. Purple or gold jewelry is an ego thing, performance is minimal. My wife wanted a diamond when I could have purchased a cubic zirconia three times as large and none of her friends could've told the difference, but you know what? She can tell them it's a diamond!

Jewelry master crafting writs are a complete waste of inventory space and are their own sort of disaster. Since everyone agrees on this front I won't elaborate any further.

Fyrakin

While I agree that jewelry crafting is pretty much absurd as it is I would just suggest to add hireling skill for it. Just like we have for other wearable crafting trees. With 3 additional skill points spent in jewelry crafting we could get (as random as it could be) grains or even platings and this could add some required balance. Just that simple addition could save us from a lot of negative feedback we have now.

rustle911

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Not participating in PvP is totally your choice, @rustle911 ... I don’t think anyone one disagrees with that.

However, the disagreement starts when players start asking for improvements to the jewelry crafting system and buffing platings drops ... when said players are purposely avoiding game content that yields those drops in the first place.

ZOS shares that same view. To get the most out of the game, you’ll have to be willing to play all types of content ... and not ask for a handout.

So, by your logic, I should spend time and gold either building a character, or re-specing a character for pvp content so that I can go and attempt to get a slightly higher drop rate of jewelry, decon it in the hopes that it yields more of the grains I need to refine into the platings I need/want? Also, we’re talking about going to a zone that has been rife with problems since the launch of the game. You mean I get to go ride my horse minutes at a time, moving from one objective to the next, deal with lag, desynced enemies, and random loading screens all while hoping that I don’t get bow ganked by some toon sneaking around waiting for people to come get killed? Where do I sign up?
No thanks. First off, if Cyrodiil provides higher drop rates of purple jewelry than other zones, then there’s a balance problem. Secondly, since grains are not a guaranteed result of deconning jewelry, I’m still left to the mercy of the rng gods. Thirdly, my characters that have been built for PvE may be viable against npc’s in Cyrodiil, but doing so puts me at a severe disadvantage should I come across another player. Likewise, even if I do re-spec my character for PvP, I am now less viable against npc’s and have to rely on finding a group to run with. Lastly, even if all of that works out so that I have the prime conditions for running through the zone, should my group come across a larger group of players, we are dead, and have to restart the exercise from our nearest controlled transit us shrine.
What seems like an easy way to do things to you, doesn’t sound easy, or enjoyable to me. It has nothing to do with willingness. I’m willing to go to those areas based on need. I’ll go to IC to get tel var stones for purchasing unique runestones. I’ll even go to Cyrodiil to get the jewelry trait stones for triune and swift since they can’t be acquired anywhere else. I shouldn’t have to go do PvP content because I have a better chance of getting gear to decon for mats. If ZoS wants me to go to Cyrodiil to acquire mats, they need to have some master jeweler vendor who just sells them outright for a few, 3-5k gold or 6-10k AP, per zircon plating. Or maybe 500 gold per grain. Now you have a gold/AP sink that would also help make all of those master writs worth something again. We also have a price control mechanism similar to the regional vendor that encourages people to go to the buggy, super sized, PvP zone as an alternative to farming overland PvE zones.

Parrot1986

For me, JC is definitely lacking in balance compared to the other crafting professions and is something I’m really hoping gets addressed in Elsewyr with the new chapter and it becoming part of base game.

I’m fine with the crafting costs of base, node availability and writs rewards overall. The issue is the lack of the platings due to the grain system.

I have enough mats to create gold sets or upgrade others if I wish. I don’t have anywhere near enough to complete master writs though and I’d literally be throwing millions away in trying to complete the master writs. It should be rewarding rather than punishing which it is just now.

I’d rather
- remove grains and have it work in line with the other professions that they are obtained through deconstructing, refining and rewards but at a plating level
- Keep grains but when you deconstruct you get platings instead of grains since that’s what used to make them that quality initially and have a chance to get plating through hirelings and/or writ rewards

rustle911

It seems like we have three sides to the argument:
1. Everything is fine, stop complaining and spend that time playing more ESO.
2. JC is completely broken and needs to be made just like the other three equipment crafting professions.
3. JC is still unbalanced and cost prohibitive. It needs some changes to be fully viable, especially where it concerns master writs.

I started out in group two. I have found myself shift, albeit slowly, to group 3. Best ideas I’ve heard so far and would actually make a lot of sense if implemented:
1. Give us a hireling. This would provide the occasional drop of zircon grains which is currently the rarest of the plating materials from all non-decon sources.
2. Adjust the drop rates to match the upgrade costs. As pointed out in another thread, the upgrade costs were changed to lower plating costs. Relative to other professions the cost to upgrade jewelry is 50%-67%-75%-50% at each rank. An increase in the drop rates of iridium and zircon grains in refining by 22.5 and 33% respectively would offset the ratio differences also helping to ease the Zircon choke point.
3. Platings for decon. This one was a good idea, but I believe it goes too far. If the cost to upgrade is half, then at best, the reward for decon should be half. Make deconning jewelry always drop at least one grain, then scale that to a maximum of 5 grains at the same rate that would get an upgrade material of the same level from deconning armor or weapons.

I think all of the above adjustments are fair. They would serve to ease the zircon chokepoint and make master writs viable while keeping JC harder or ”special” in comparison to the other crafting professions.

What do those of you in groups 1 and 3 think?

IonicKai

The argument that golden would get ruined if there are any improvements to ease of access for chromium tells me that golden is flawed. I actually think they should change golden to be more relevant with more sets at a time and a proper rotation of sets to help offset a change to the grain system. I think decon should guarantee 1 grain but have a chance for more than 1 especially in non gold decon as it should be equivalently easy to craft purple jewelry as it is to obtain it through content or at least in the ball park.

Also I just want to point out that while I am ok with it being a grind nothing should be balanced such that to make it viable you have to do 15 times the average player to use it effectively and I think if you want something rare it should be no more that 3 times (referring to those who argue that 15 crafting characters makes it easy or ok as most people have a crafter or 2).

Edit: typo

rustle911

IonicKai wrote: »

Also I just want to point out that while I am ok with it being a grind nothing should be balanced such that to make it viable you have to do 15 times the average player to use it effectively and I think if you want something rare it should be no more that 3 times (referring to those who argue that 15 crafting characters makes it easy or ok as most people have a crafter or 2).

Edit: typo

Very valid point. I’ve had the game on console since launch(almost 4 years). I have 5 toons that I try to rotate my play time with. While the vast majority of my time is on my main, my total play time with my second isn’t even a month. While RL did have me out of the game for a couple of 6 month periods, I consider myself average to slightly above average in time spent in game. I cannot imagine trying to manage the 8 toon limit, let alone buying slots to have more.

Outside of JC I don’t hurt for materials for upgrading gear. I don’t mind if I have to put some extra effort into acquiring what I need for JC, but I do mind if I have to give up all other activities to make the time for it. I don’t want to, and shouldn’t have to give up 95% of the game to do 5% of it. Likewise, I shouldn’t have to spend all of my time and effort doing 15% of the game(PvP) to make that 5% viable.

Edit: typo

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

To be honest, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are maligning me (and others) because my opinion is different than yours on this matter.

I haven't replied to this thread nearly as much as you have. Nor have I asserted that "everyone" wants it changed, though I do believe more want it changed but just don't care to engage than the reverse.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Can somebody honestly answer for me why there can't be one thing that is "special" about crafting, why do they need to be homogeneous? It's true in the real world... It takes a lot more skill to make a gold necklace than it does to make a shirt. Why can't the game simulate that same difference in craftsmanship and skill, by making one more difficult to obtain?

Give a good reason jewelry should be different first. Consistency is better without a compelling reason otherwise.

tmbrinks wrote: »

I have offered suggestions galore about small changes that could happen that could make the system better, such as
* a hireling to increase Zircon grains...
* increasing the values of jewelry master writs by another 50% (although I'm sure ZoS doesn't want the flood of vouchers that would bring to the game, as that'd lower the price of the vouchers even more, make the other 6 crafts' master writs less valuable too)
* increasing the drop rate of Chromium grains to be in line with the other crafts (seems to be 50% less than Kuta/Rosin/Wax/Alloy (20% vs 30%))
but nobody says a damn thing about those, but instead call me out as an "elitist", "rich guy who just wants to make money", "malinger", etc... just because I don't share your same view. I like that it's special, I like that the easiest way to get gold jewelry is to run trials on veteran. If you can't or don't want to do those, then Jewelry Crafting is here as an alternative way to achieve the same goal.

These suggestions are what I note is good about many of your replies. Then you go back to saying it is "just great" (in so many words) now because it keeps it "special".

tmbrinks wrote: »

I honestly, truly fear, that the end-game raid community could completely dry up if they made it so that it was as easy to get gold jewelry as many here want it to be (we're already a small group).

People only or even primarily do endgame content for jewelry? I find that very hard to believe. Do you really believe that?

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

To be honest, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You are maligning me (and others) because my opinion is different than yours on this matter.

I haven't replied to this thread nearly as much as you have. Nor have I asserted that "everyone" wants it changed, though I do believe more want it changed but just don't care to engage than the reverse.

As noted previously, people who are okay with the system aren't going to be enticed to say anything. The fact that there are several people who think the system is okay with only minor tweaks is proof that there is a sizable contingent who think it's okay.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Can somebody honestly answer for me why there can't be one thing that is "special" about crafting, why do they need to be homogeneous? It's true in the real world... It takes a lot more skill to make a gold necklace than it does to make a shirt. Why can't the game simulate that same difference in craftsmanship and skill, by making one more difficult to obtain?

Give a good reason jewelry should be different first. Consistency is better without a compelling reason otherwise.

When you want something changed, the burden of proof is on the person wanting it changed, rather than the person on the side of where it is at currently. Nobody here has given a compelling reason of why it needs to be changed. Like in the court of law, innocent until proven guilty, you need to prove why it needs to be changed first.

tmbrinks wrote: »

I have offered suggestions galore about small changes that could happen that could make the system better, such as
* a hireling to increase Zircon grains...
* increasing the values of jewelry master writs by another 50% (although I'm sure ZoS doesn't want the flood of vouchers that would bring to the game, as that'd lower the price of the vouchers even more, make the other 6 crafts' master writs less valuable too)
* increasing the drop rate of Chromium grains to be in line with the other crafts (seems to be 50% less than Kuta/Rosin/Wax/Alloy (20% vs 30%))
but nobody says a damn thing about those, but instead call me out as an "elitist", "rich guy who just wants to make money", "malinger", etc... just because I don't share your same view. I like that it's special, I like that the easiest way to get gold jewelry is to run trials on veteran. If you can't or don't want to do those, then Jewelry Crafting is here as an alternative way to achieve the same goal.

These suggestions are what I note is good about many of your replies. Then you go back to saying it is "just great" (in so many words) now because it keeps it "special".

Yes, I still think it needs to be special for the quotes I've made below. I'm suggesting small tweaks to the system. You (and others) are suggesting blowing the whole thing up, possibly causing catastrophic changes to the economy in ESO, which has been remarkably stable for the last 5 years.

These could include
* The Golden
* Writ Vouchers
* Alliance Point values
* Etc, etc...

tmbrinks wrote: »

I honestly, truly fear, that the end-game raid community could completely dry up if they made it so that it was as easy to get gold jewelry as many here want it to be (we're already a small group).

People only or even primarily do endgame content for jewelry? I find that very hard to believe. Do you really believe that?

I never said that people "Only or even primarily do endgame content for jewelry"

People want to run the end game sets for builds. They want Relequin, Siroria, Olorime, Mending, IA, Alkosh, AY, the list goes on and on. The sets that drop in trials are the best in the game. There are some people who begrudgingly run that content for the gear, but aren't really interested in becoming a "raider". Some might become so if they actually had to run the vet level versions of them, they might find the mechanics fun, interesting, challenging, rather than PUG a normal, get the gear and be able to easily upgrade it to legendary because it's very cheap to do so. ZoS has changed things recently with the introduction of "perfect" gear, that only drops in Veteran trials (or HM trials), which might be there way of setting it up so that you have to do end-game to get the best gear. That was my point.

But thank you for taking my comments out of context, only quoting a portion of what I said to try to prove your point.

Remember, you want a change, you have to prove the change needs to happen. There is no burden of proof on me to prove that it needs to stay the same. Does it need some tweaks, yes, I've admitted that, can you admit that you want to change the system so drastically so that it's easy for you to get something? That you feel entitled to having gold gear without putting forth the work?

It takes either gold or effort in JC to be able to upgrade. Gold is so easily made in this game, that if JC isn't your "thing", find your thing that makes gold and just buy what you need to upgrade your stuff, if you want. Nobody is forcing you to do Jewelry Crafting. The best part of it is the transmutation ability on your gear, and that takes no more effort than any other of the crafts (in fact it's less than BS/Cloth, even when factoring in only 1 research slot, only 18 traits to research, rather than 54 for woodworking, and 84 for BS/Cloth).

FlopsyPrince

You said you were afraid raiding would decrease if jewelry were less important.

The answer to your base question of why it should change was already noted: Consistency.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You said you were afraid raiding would decrease if jewelry were less important.

The answer to your base question of why it should change was already noted: Consistency.

I said I was afraid people might NOT GET INTO IT...

Also... not enough of a reason. Why do they need to be consistent??? That's what needs to be answered

Gilvoth

i enjoy jewelry crafting, i dont see anything broke about it other than it costs near or about 1 million gold per ring or necklace is the only problem i have with it.
i hate these threads we constantly see on this forum demanding and insulting eso developers about the things that are in eso.
we have a awesome game here in eso and it works great. only problems that i see is the constant and daily threads made that insult our game.
and yes i am serious and stand by my comment.

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You said you were afraid raiding would decrease if jewelry were less important.

The answer to your base question of why it should change was already noted: Consistency.

I said I was afraid people might NOT GET INTO IT...

Also... not enough of a reason. Why do they need to be consistent??? That's what needs to be answered

It is the only crafting line that is different. No reason for that.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You said you were afraid raiding would decrease if jewelry were less important.

The answer to your base question of why it should change was already noted: Consistency.

I said I was afraid people might NOT GET INTO IT...

Also... not enough of a reason. Why do they need to be consistent??? That's what needs to be answered

It is the only crafting line that is different. No reason for that.

ZoS' official statements is the reason why. The "boss" wants it that way, so it's done that way unless you can give a very compelling, logical reason why it should be different.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I just dont see them removing the grains 1/10th BS, although most of us would like it. Assuming that is not going anywhere, here is what I think needs to happen.

First, deconstruction should at least reward plates of the appropriate level (especially if deconstructing something you crafted), refinement can still reward the grains. They can do what they want with the drop rate of said plates, but put them in the lootable. This would at least ease the pain of the plate vs grain debate.

Second, purple mats need to be in the loot table for max tier writs. I actually have way more gold grains than I do purple grains, because as it stands now, the only real source of these is refinement/decon.

Third, they need to rework JC master writs to make them worth doing. This should also be applied retroactively to any writs in the game. I have close to 200 of these in the bank and none of them are worth the input cost.

FlopsyPrince

tmbrinks wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You said you were afraid raiding would decrease if jewelry were less important.

The answer to your base question of why it should change was already noted: Consistency.

I said I was afraid people might NOT GET INTO IT...

Also... not enough of a reason. Why do they need to be consistent??? That's what needs to be answered

It is the only crafting line that is different. No reason for that.

ZoS' official statements is the reason why. The "boss" wants it that way, so it's done that way unless you can give a very compelling, logical reason why it should be different.

I don't dispute that. Stupid reason on their part, but they do control that aspect. See how well that attitude is work for Blizzard now, for example, to see how bad that is.

BTW, it is fine that you disagree with me, but claiming I just want "free stuff" is idiotic.

I am a far too compulsive "intense casual" player who just wants to be able to touch on the areas. I may never raid, but I should still be able to craft or upgrade gear I can acquire. This hasn't stopped me, but it would really be nice to have even blue jewelry during leveling when I get someone to craft everything else, as one example. I have to live with white crafted jewelry now. Not bad overall, but mars things from an appearance view.

BretonMage

If they reduced the grain to plating requirement to 5 grains per plating, I think that should balance it out appropriately. It will still be much more of a grind compared to the other crafting skills, but it will at least be bearable. As I see it, this is probably the most straightforward fix that won't require too many other variables to be tweaked.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

BretonMage wrote: »

If they reduced the grain to plating requirement to 5 grains per plating, I think that should balance it out appropriately. It will still be much more of a grind compared to the other crafting skills, but it will at least be bearable. As I see it, this is probably the most straightforward fix that won't require too many other variables to be tweaked.

One of the key points of this discussion is that they can't make upgrading to gold cheaper than the gold vendor. If anything, for the system to make any sense at all, it needs to stay more expensive than the gold vendor.

Right now it's 400-450K to take a ring to gold from base, about 330-350K for just purple to gold. It is 250k for the expensive tier of rings from the gold vendor. So right now, upgrading yourself costs almost twice as much as buying from the golden.

That being said, having the freedom to upgrade whatever you want is far more useful than the RNG of the gold vendor, so it SHOULD be more expensive.

The real questions are

A) Should gold jewelry be ~twice as expensive to craft vs the gold vendor? What increase is considered "fair"?

Are the base prices of the gold vendor OK? That dictates to what degree JC needs to change, if at all.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

If they reduced the grain to plating requirement to 5 grains per plating, I think that should balance it out appropriately. It will still be much more of a grind compared to the other crafting skills, but it will at least be bearable. As I see it, this is probably the most straightforward fix that won't require too many other variables to be tweaked.

One of the key points of this discussion is that they can't make upgrading to gold cheaper than the gold vendor. If anything, for the system to make any sense at all, it needs to stay more expensive than the gold vendor.

Right now it's 400-450K to take a ring to gold from base, about 330-350K for just purple to gold. It is 250k for the expensive tier of rings from the gold vendor. So right now, upgrading yourself costs almost twice as much as buying from the golden.

That being said, having the freedom to upgrade whatever you want is far more useful than the RNG of the gold vendor, so it SHOULD be more expensive.

The real questions are

A) Should gold jewelry be ~twice as expensive to craft vs the gold vendor? What increase is considered "fair"?

Are the base prices of the gold vendor OK? That dictates to what degree JC needs to change, if at all.

The problem, at least from what I can see for some sets, is there is no predictability for the Gold Vendor availability. Some sets like Necropotence haven't had an item available across all platforms since June, 2017. You also have crafted sets that will never be available at the Gold Vendor so why should those require a premium? After all they don't really compete with it.

Browiseth

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Many players (including this player) appreciate your feedback ... and your desire to improve the system (from what it is today) is admirable.

But introducing platings for writ rewards is over the top, in my opinion. For a multitude of reasons other than the jewelry market tanking (which it would surely do).

Giving players gold platings for master writs means they don’t have to do the challenging types of content to get their gear. They can run a normal trial or dungeon, do four (4) max level writs, and voila ... gold jewelry.

Not to mention, there’s really not a huge difference in stats between purple and gold jewelry.

To summarize, there are ways to improve jewelry crafting. Handing out platings like candy is one I wouldn’t put high on the list.

@Taleof2Cities sooo...

- who cares if the market tanks? this sounds like more of an admission of a fear of change rather than a legitimate counter argument

- the whole point of JC was to give crafters an edge in getting their endgame gear to begin with...

- if there isn't much difference in stats, what's the problem?

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

If they reduced the grain to plating requirement to 5 grains per plating, I think that should balance it out appropriately. It will still be much more of a grind compared to the other crafting skills, but it will at least be bearable. As I see it, this is probably the most straightforward fix that won't require too many other variables to be tweaked.

One of the key points of this discussion is that they can't make upgrading to gold cheaper than the gold vendor. If anything, for the system to make any sense at all, it needs to stay more expensive than the gold vendor.

Right now it's 400-450K to take a ring to gold from base, about 330-350K for just purple to gold. It is 250k for the expensive tier of rings from the gold vendor. So right now, upgrading yourself costs almost twice as much as buying from the golden.

That being said, having the freedom to upgrade whatever you want is far more useful than the RNG of the gold vendor, so it SHOULD be more expensive.

The real questions are

A) Should gold jewelry be ~twice as expensive to craft vs the gold vendor? What increase is considered "fair"?

Are the base prices of the gold vendor OK? That dictates to what degree JC needs to change, if at all.

The problem, at least from what I can see for some sets, is there is no predictability for the Gold Vendor availability. Some sets like Necropotence haven't had an item available across all platforms since June, 2017. You also have crafted sets that will never be available at the Gold Vendor so why should those require a premium? After all they don't really compete with it.

You're failing to understand my argument. I'm saying that you have to pay a premium for that convenience. Gold vendor is cheaper, but inconsistent. Crafting yourself should be more expensive from a game balance standpoint, because you can craft / upgrade whatever you want, whenever you want. You pay extra for that freedom. There isn't a single trial or dungeon that you can't easily get carried through to get at least blue jewelry, so you technically have all jewelry at your disposal.

Gold vendor should have a chance at crafted drops to make things consistent, yes.

The only questions are whether or not the prices of the gold vendor are reasonable, and what magnitude should that premium be? Methinks the current 80-100% extra is too high.