How to fix Jewelry Crafting

Cortimi

Alright, so lots of ideas and mechanics have been introduced that frankly inhibit the usefulness of JC at a fundamental level that lots of people hate, but ZOS can't/won't change without a massive overhaul. This is how to address those issues in the easiest way possible, which would be the only way we may see an improvement.

First: the "grain" thing. This is awful, and absurd. The reasoning given for it was to make JC "elite", bit it really just comes off as a way to punish players.

The fix: make grains of any color drop from Ore nodes with a DECENT chance. If a whole Kuta can drop from any nodes, then 1/10th of a good plate is not too much to ask.

Also, deconstruction of jewelry should always grant at least one grain of appropriate grade.

The second problem: plate scarcity. This is directly related the the first problem.

The fix: the daily JC writ rewards should reward a PLATE instead of a grain, without changing the drop rate, based on your JC skill level:
If JC skill is 1, you can get a green plate.
If JC skill is 2, you can get a green or blue plate.
If JC skill is 3, a blue or purple plate.
If JC skill is 4, a purple or gold plate.
If JC skill is 5, two purple plates, or a gold plate.
Also, to provide better balance, the improvement requirements should be increased to more closely balance along with Blacksmithing and Clothing. In other words, 8 gold plates, 4 purple plates, etc.

This would keep the market from becoming oversaturated, but would also not be a barrier to entry for a new player just trying to upgrade a couple pieces.

This would also give incentive to people to make JC craft alts, or to justify actually grinding JC to 50 in the first place.

There you go. ZOS can keep their mechanics in place, making JC a thoughtful, unique experience (like enchanting and alchemy), without it being a ridiculous grind fest.

Taleof2Cities

Many players (including this player) appreciate your feedback ... and your desire to improve the system (from what it is today) is admirable.

But introducing platings for writ rewards is over the top, in my opinion. For a multitude of reasons other than the jewelry market tanking (which it would surely do).

Giving players gold platings for master writs means they don’t have to do the challenging types of content to get their gear. They can run a normal trial or dungeon, do four (4) max level writs, and voila ... gold jewelry.

Not to mention, there’s really not a huge difference in stats between purple and gold jewelry.

To summarize, there are ways to improve jewelry crafting. Handing out platings like candy is one I wouldn’t put high on the list.

Cortimi

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

Either the stats aren't that great, which means it should be easy to acquire, or the bonus is great and requires a great grind.

As it sits, the effort does not match the reward. That's the entire problem.

You also didn't really pay attention to the entire post. I suggested upping the improvement requirements to match Blacksmithing and Clothing. Also, grains do not drop from every high level writ, so as I stated, keeping the chances the same, there is no way to just "do four" and call it a day. So even with perfect RNG, it would be 24 (requirement of 8 plates for 3 pieces) days to upgrade from purple to gold. That's over a month of perfect RNG for gold jewelry, not four days. So if the chances are actually 1 in 4 of getting a plate from a writ, you are looking at 4 months, statistically. That is plenty long enough.

Also keep in mind that JC isn't the only thing you are grinding. You have to get skyshards, do dungeons, and quest for the skill points to be able to have all of the Crafting available.

So people either invest the time to be able to craft themselves, or they pick a line and pay others to get what they can't make. This wouldn't change that constant, and the reward for time spent is pretty dismal for this line.

tmbrinks

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

Either the stats aren't that great, which means it should be easy to acquire, or the bonus is great and requires a great grind.

As it sits, the effort does not match the reward. That's the entire problem.

You also didn't really pay attention to the entire post. I suggested upping the improvement requirements to match Blacksmithing and Clothing. Also, grains do not drop from every high level writ, so as I stated, keeping the chances the same, there is no way to just "do four" and call it a day. So even with perfect RNG, it would be 24 (requirement of 8 plates for 3 pieces) days to upgrade from purple to gold. That's over a month of perfect RNG for gold jewelry, not four days. So if the chances are actually 1 in 4 of getting a plate from a writ, you are looking at 4 months, statistically. That is plenty long enough.

Also keep in mind that JC isn't the only thing you are grinding. You have to get skyshards, do dungeons, and quest for the skill points to be able to have all of the Crafting available.

So people either invest the time to be able to craft themselves, or they pick a line and pay others to get what they can't make. This wouldn't change that constant, and the reward for time spent is pretty dismal for this line.

The reward is more than adequate. And, if somebody is farming daily writs for upgrade materials, who is only doing the writs on one character.

Blacksmithing/Woodworking/Clothing writs do not drop purple, blue or green upgrade materials at all. Why would jewelry crafting?

If your character is only crafting, you don't have to do any grinding. Just leveling will give you nearly enough skill points to unlock all the skills needed to craft, you might need to pick up a few skill points, but level using questing instead of Dolmen/Skyreach and you'll be good there.

I have 15 max level jewelry crafters that I do writs on. Between the grains I get (about 20% drop rate), and the surveys, and then refining the raw materials. I get about 3-4 Chromium platings a week. Thus, 3-4 weeks and I can upgrade a full set a gear. Are you okay with 4 weeks to upgrade?

DBZVelena

i believe they upped the chance from grains dropping from deconstruction since wrathstone.
this will prob make it that in the future more platings will be in the market and thus you can get your mastery writs done.

FlopsyPrince

Who cares if the jewelry market tanks? That is the nature of markets in an MMO. Nothing should be guaranteed forever.

Keeping something rare just to prop up a limited number of sellers is idiotic.

tmbrinks

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Who cares if the jewelry market tanks? That is the nature of markets in an MMO. Nothing should be guaranteed forever.

Keeping something rare just to prop up a limited number of sellers is idiotic.

Source of gold for PVP players is to sell wanted sets when they come to the Golden Vendor. You will have effectively killed the gold making ability for PVP players, forcing them to do PVE content to obtain resources/gold to sustain themselves in PVP.

We already have a thread in the General channel asking why PVP players are forced to do PVE (for gear and such), tanking the jewelry market will force them to do PVE even more.

Starlock

Sounds pretty good, @Cortimi. Personally, I'd be fine with gold platings be left out of the jewelry crafting dailies. I just want enough green/blue/purple platings and trait stones to... actually be able to use jewelry crafting? I remember watching the abundant complaints about it during the PTS days, but wanting to verify it for myself when the system came out. I was hoping the initial criticisms were wrong, but they weren't. The system is non-functional. It's non-functional even for relatively dedicated players who put a lot of time into this game. If the whole grain system just dies in fire it would fix the entire system instantly.

tmbrinks

Starlock wrote: »

Sounds pretty good, @Cortimi. Personally, I'd be fine with gold platings be left out of the jewelry crafting dailies. I just want enough green/blue/purple platings and trait stones to... actually be able to use jewelry crafting? I remember watching the abundant complaints about it during the PTS days, but wanting to verify it for myself when the system came out. I was hoping the initial criticisms were wrong, but they weren't. The system is non-functional. It's non-functional even for relatively dedicated players who put a lot of time into this game. If the whole grain system just dies in fire it would fix the entire system instantly.

how is it non-functional?

Added traits for jewelry has revolutionized DPS builds, by allowing the usage of sets that otherwise could not be reliably used.

The ability to run double crafted sets (if you desired) is now possible.

They have already listened to many of the criticisms. They dropped the cost by 50% from the launch of JC. They increased the voucher value of the master writs by a factor of 4 (It's not enough, but that's not the point)

When you speak in generic platitudes and hyperbole, it takes away from your argument.

FlopsyPrince

So forcing PvPers to do PvE content is horrid, but forcing the problem on those who don't do PvP is fine?

I am sure PvPers could have another way to reach their goals without making jewelry so difficult for everyone else.

Cortimi

tmbrinks wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

Either the stats aren't that great, which means it should be easy to acquire, or the bonus is great and requires a great grind.

As it sits, the effort does not match the reward. That's the entire problem.

You also didn't really pay attention to the entire post. I suggested upping the improvement requirements to match Blacksmithing and Clothing. Also, grains do not drop from every high level writ, so as I stated, keeping the chances the same, there is no way to just "do four" and call it a day. So even with perfect RNG, it would be 24 (requirement of 8 plates for 3 pieces) days to upgrade from purple to gold. That's over a month of perfect RNG for gold jewelry, not four days. So if the chances are actually 1 in 4 of getting a plate from a writ, you are looking at 4 months, statistically. That is plenty long enough.

Also keep in mind that JC isn't the only thing you are grinding. You have to get skyshards, do dungeons, and quest for the skill points to be able to have all of the Crafting available.

So people either invest the time to be able to craft themselves, or they pick a line and pay others to get what they can't make. This wouldn't change that constant, and the reward for time spent is pretty dismal for this line.

The reward is more than adequate...
Blacksmithing/Woodworking/Clothing writs do not drop purple, blue or green upgrade materials at all. Why would jewelry crafting?

Pretty much stopped reading after this. "Adequate", when master writs are ROUTINELY scrapped because they are just about worthless.

And Blacksmith/Woodworking/Clothing doesn't have "grains", why would jewelry crafting?

SoLooney

I would so be down for platings to drop from jewelry writs. Getting chromium plates is such a hassle, I pray everytime I decon trial jewelry, I get a grain.

It's such a flawed mechanic

tmbrinks

Cortimi wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

Either the stats aren't that great, which means it should be easy to acquire, or the bonus is great and requires a great grind.

As it sits, the effort does not match the reward. That's the entire problem.

You also didn't really pay attention to the entire post. I suggested upping the improvement requirements to match Blacksmithing and Clothing. Also, grains do not drop from every high level writ, so as I stated, keeping the chances the same, there is no way to just "do four" and call it a day. So even with perfect RNG, it would be 24 (requirement of 8 plates for 3 pieces) days to upgrade from purple to gold. That's over a month of perfect RNG for gold jewelry, not four days. So if the chances are actually 1 in 4 of getting a plate from a writ, you are looking at 4 months, statistically. That is plenty long enough.

Also keep in mind that JC isn't the only thing you are grinding. You have to get skyshards, do dungeons, and quest for the skill points to be able to have all of the Crafting available.

So people either invest the time to be able to craft themselves, or they pick a line and pay others to get what they can't make. This wouldn't change that constant, and the reward for time spent is pretty dismal for this line.

The reward is more than adequate...
Blacksmithing/Woodworking/Clothing writs do not drop purple, blue or green upgrade materials at all. Why would jewelry crafting?

Pretty much stopped reading after this. "Adequate", when master writs are ROUTINELY scrapped because they are just about worthless.

And Blacksmith/Woodworking/Clothing doesn't have "grains", why would jewelry crafting?

By my personal calculations, based on PC/NA prices, there is greater profit, in terms of value of goods - cost of materials for Jewelry crafting writs than doing any of the other writs.

(And yes, I assume a value of 0 (ZERO) for JC master writs in that calculation)

That is my justification for saying the word "adequate" when it comes to the reward.

You can see all the calculations here: (shared in another thread here)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11dEEnHBccrDPo0yY4a5BattPjlivjdVrfiy9eO_gMTo/edit?usp=sharing

Starlock

tmbrinks wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Sounds pretty good, @Cortimi. Personally, I'd be fine with gold platings be left out of the jewelry crafting dailies. I just want enough green/blue/purple platings and trait stones to... actually be able to use jewelry crafting? I remember watching the abundant complaints about it during the PTS days, but wanting to verify it for myself when the system came out. I was hoping the initial criticisms were wrong, but they weren't. The system is non-functional. It's non-functional even for relatively dedicated players who put a lot of time into this game. If the whole grain system just dies in fire it would fix the entire system instantly.

how is it non-functional?

Added traits for jewelry has revolutionized DPS builds, by allowing the usage of sets that otherwise could not be reliably used.

The ability to run double crafted sets (if you desired) is now possible.

They have already listened to many of the criticisms. They dropped the cost by 50% from the launch of JC. They increased the voucher value of the master writs by a factor of 4 (It's not enough, but that's not the point)

When you speak in generic platitudes and hyperbole, it takes away from your argument.

I wish it was a platitude and hyperbole.

I play this game quite a lot; full-time equivalent in hours per week provided I'm not playing some other game. Since Summerset dropped, I have upgraded a grand total of one blue ring to purple. I've transmuted a grand total of one necklace to a different trait. I have crafted zero jewelry items from scratch. The only thing I have gotten out of jewelry crafting is a new dye - one new dye (I have never gotten enough stuff to get the second one) - and a bit of extra gold when doing daily crafting writs.

That's ridiculous enough for me to call the system non-functional. The system is unnecessarily difficult. In no other profession do I have to go out of my way to practice it. Doing my usual overland questing, picking up mats as I go, and doing the occasional crafting writ is enough to keep me supplied and able to use all other crafting systems. That's not the case with jewelry crafting. In no other profession would I have to mindlessly devote dozens if not hundreds of hours grinding just to get any use out of it. I'm not going to change how I play the game just to use jewelry crafting. I shouldn't have to in the first place. If I cannot use the system without spending all of my gaming time chasing it, forget it. That's non-functional. It's even worse for people who play this game with less devotion than a full-time job.

The grains system dying in fire would fix most of this instantly. Acquisition of trait stones would still be a problem, but I could live with that if the grains system died in fire.

tmbrinks

Starlock wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Sounds pretty good, @Cortimi. Personally, I'd be fine with gold platings be left out of the jewelry crafting dailies. I just want enough green/blue/purple platings and trait stones to... actually be able to use jewelry crafting? I remember watching the abundant complaints about it during the PTS days, but wanting to verify it for myself when the system came out. I was hoping the initial criticisms were wrong, but they weren't. The system is non-functional. It's non-functional even for relatively dedicated players who put a lot of time into this game. If the whole grain system just dies in fire it would fix the entire system instantly.

how is it non-functional?

Added traits for jewelry has revolutionized DPS builds, by allowing the usage of sets that otherwise could not be reliably used.

The ability to run double crafted sets (if you desired) is now possible.

They have already listened to many of the criticisms. They dropped the cost by 50% from the launch of JC. They increased the voucher value of the master writs by a factor of 4 (It's not enough, but that's not the point)

When you speak in generic platitudes and hyperbole, it takes away from your argument.

I wish it was a platitude and hyperbole.

I play this game quite a lot; full-time equivalent in hours per week provided I'm not playing some other game. Since Summerset dropped, I have upgraded a grand total of one blue ring to purple. I've transmuted a grand total of one necklace to a different trait. I have crafted zero jewelry items from scratch. The only thing I have gotten out of jewelry crafting is a new dye - one new dye (I have never gotten enough stuff to get the second one) - and a bit of extra gold when doing daily crafting writs.

That's ridiculous enough for me to call the system non-functional. The system is unnecessarily difficult. In no other profession do I have to go out of my way to practice it. Doing my usual overland questing, picking up mats as I go, and doing the occasional crafting writ is enough to keep me supplied and able to use all other crafting systems. That's not the case with jewelry crafting. In no other profession would I have to mindlessly devote dozens if not hundreds of hours grinding just to get any use out of it. I'm not going to change how I play the game just to use jewelry crafting. I shouldn't have to in the first place. If I cannot use the system without spending all of my gaming time chasing it, forget it. That's non-functional. It's even worse for people who play this game with less devotion than a full-time job.

The grains system dying in fire would fix most of this instantly. Acquisition of trait stones would still be a problem, but I could live with that if the grains system died in fire.

Non-functional would imply that nothing in it works. That is a patently false statement, that is the platitudes and hyperbole I'm referring too. You can get a bloodthirsty ring from running a trial, research it in 6 hours, and transmute your gear to bloodthirsty to increase your dps. I'd say that's pretty damn functional.

If you want to do more with it, it's your choice to do so. Gold Jewelry drops in this game from other sources significantly more than gold armor and gold weapons drop, thus, if the "grind" of getting the materials is too much, you have other choices.

Can you make a case that it is difficult, perhaps too much so, to upgrade gear to gold. Perhaps. Yet, this game was perfectly fine before jewelry crafting was introduced, it's an optional thing you can either choose to do or to not do. If you don't, unless you are literally in Hodor and setting world records in trials, the gold gear isn't going to suddenly make you a god-tier DPS. I spend 45 minutes a day doing writs on multiple characters (yes, I'm on PC so it's faster), and I can get enough materials to upgrade a gold ring about weekly. (I don't need to, 95% of the gold jewelry I have came from Trials and/or the Golden Vendor) That's a not "full time job" commitment.

rustle911

tmbrinks wrote: »

Can you make a case that it is difficult, perhaps too much so, to upgrade gear to gold. Perhaps. Yet, this game was perfectly fine before jewelry crafting was introduced, it's an optional thing you can either choose to do or to not do. If you don't, unless you are literally in Hodor and setting world records in trials, the gold gear isn't going to suddenly make you a god-tier DPS. I spend 45 minutes a day doing writs on multiple characters (yes, I'm on PC so it's faster), and I can get enough materials to upgrade a gold ring about weekly. (I don't need to, 95% of the gold jewelry I have came from Trials and/or the Golden Vendor) That's a not "full time job" commitment.

As You and I have gone back and forth on multiple times in another thread, not only can the case be made, it has been. And none of the numbers you have presented refute that. You yourself have stated numerous times that taking that gear from blue to gold isn't going to take me from 35k-40/45/50k dps. This proves Cortimi's statement:

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

I believe the whole point of JC is that I shouldn't have to go to a trial or the Golden to get gold jewelry. In fact, the whole point of a crafting/upgrading system would be that I don't have to grind through the most difficult content, or spend exorbitant amounts of gold to maximize the value of my gear. This should hold true whether it be blacksmithing, enchanting, or jewelry crafting. And to that point, you know what will never drop from a trial or be sold by The Golden? A ring of Julianos or a necklace of Hunding's Rage.

For a game that was originally designed to have great amounts of customization and not be constrained by "The Meta" as so many MMORPG's are, it sure has developed into exactly that. You can attack the nuance of peoples statements about the viability of JC in this game. You also, as you have stated, enjoy the PC life when it comes tocrafting. Starlock's statement, while hyperbolic, is an example of using the hyperbole to show the level of frustration that us console players have with JC.

I refined 3614 platinum dust last Saturday. My reward in terms of upgrade materials was 9 chromium grains, 17 zircon grains, 26 irridium grains, and 42 terne grains. At 100,000 platinum dust the percentages you have stated may hold true. I don't have the time or gold reserves to collect that much. It took me a month to accumulate that much dust during the course of normal game play.

There are a significant number of players dissatisfied with JC. As of yet, I haven't seen ZoS seriously address anything being discussed here or in other threads. They made their statements last Summer, and are happy with themselves. Many of us however, are not happy with them. If you want to keep defending their position for them, see if you can get on their payroll.

tmbrinks

rustle911 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Can you make a case that it is difficult, perhaps too much so, to upgrade gear to gold. Perhaps. Yet, this game was perfectly fine before jewelry crafting was introduced, it's an optional thing you can either choose to do or to not do. If you don't, unless you are literally in Hodor and setting world records in trials, the gold gear isn't going to suddenly make you a god-tier DPS. I spend 45 minutes a day doing writs on multiple characters (yes, I'm on PC so it's faster), and I can get enough materials to upgrade a gold ring about weekly. (I don't need to, 95% of the gold jewelry I have came from Trials and/or the Golden Vendor) That's a not "full time job" commitment.

As You and I have gone back and forth on multiple times in another thread, not only can the case be made, it has been. And none of the numbers you have presented refute that. You yourself have stated numerous times that taking that gear from blue to gold isn't going to take me from 35k-40/45/50k dps. This proves Cortimi's statement:

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

I believe the whole point of JC is that I shouldn't have to go to a trial or the Golden to get gold jewelry. In fact, the whole point of a crafting/upgrading system would be that I don't have to grind through the most difficult content, or spend exorbitant amounts of gold to maximize the value of my gear. This should hold true whether it be blacksmithing, enchanting, or jewelry crafting. And to that point, you know what will never drop from a trial or be sold by The Golden? A ring of Julianos or a necklace of Hunding's Rage.

For a game that was originally designed to have great amounts of customization and not be constrained by "The Meta" as so many MMORPG's are, it sure has developed into exactly that. You can attack the nuance of peoples statements about the viability of JC in this game. You also, as you have stated, enjoy the PC life when it comes tocrafting. Starlock's statement, while hyperbolic, is an example of using the hyperbole to show the level of frustration that us console players have with JC.

I refined 3614 platinum dust last Saturday. My reward in terms of upgrade materials was 9 chromium grains, 17 zircon grains, 26 irridium grains, and 42 terne grains. At 100,000 platinum dust the percentages you have stated may hold true. I don't have the time or gold reserves to collect that much. It took me a month to accumulate that much dust during the course of normal game play.

There are a significant number of players dissatisfied with JC. As of yet, I haven't seen ZoS seriously address anything being discussed here or in other threads. They made their statements last Summer, and are happy with themselves. Many of us however, are not happy with them. If you want to keep defending their position for them, see if you can get on their payroll.

Yes, there are significant number of people dissatisfied with JC. There are also significant numbers of people who are OK with the system (I doubt there is anybody who thinks it's flawless... I certainly don't, and have said as such on numerous occasions) However, we also know that based on human behavior, somebody who is dissatisfied with something is more than 10 times more likely to complain about it, you see it all the time on sites like Amazon, political forums, etc... Somebody who is content with the way things are isn't likely to say something... it's also why forums like these usually turn into a ton of threads bitching about this and that, with very little positive feedback. People who produce products know this, and take it into account when they decide their course of action.

Any changes to the system could have massive ramifications with the economy in ESO. ESO has, fortunately, had a pretty stable economy for the last 5 years, and I think some of that is due to not over-reacting to everything, taking their time to decide changes. They already reduced the "cost" of JC by 50% after 1 patch, which is an enormous change. My opinion is that the changes proposed by most are even more drastic in scope, which could cause instability. The golden is important as an AP sink in the game, without it, that economy could collapse. There are many things to consider, and if I'm being honest, I like bringing those up for the purposes of discussion.

Taleof2Cities

Cortimi wrote: »

You realize literally nobody agrees with you? Your logic is unsound, and every time you tried to make a point, you were effectively disproved.

I, for one, agree with @tmbrinks ... who is frequently a solid contributor to the Crafting sub-forums.

tmbrinks

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

You realize literally nobody agrees with you? Your logic is unsound, and every time you tried to make a point, you were effectively disproved.

I, for one, agree with @tmbrinks ... who is frequently a solid contributor to the Crafting sub-forums.

Thank you @Taleof2Cities . Perhaps I have a different view, and I guess that upsets some people. I've tried not to personally attack people, but I guess we can't expect that from everybody. I get the feeling (based on threads here, as well as in general) that a majority of players want the economy of ESO to be socialist, where everybody has equal access to everything, (perhaps we should just give everybody the unlimited bag you get on PTS), rather than a capitalistic economy, where those that put in more effort will have more.

likecats

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

The entire point is to allow grindhard players to have something to aspire to, without casual players getting shafted.

This kind of trade off is also present in many real life scenarios not strictly controlled by humans, so not sure this system is pointless. For example CPU speeds, it was predicted we would have like 10 GHz cpu by 2011 (or something pretty high), but the problem was that anything over 4GHz was way to hot for public use. Ever since we have hit 4GHz, CPU speed has mostly stagnated. Every improvement in CPU speed nowadays requires much more grinding than it did in the initial stages.

P.S: I'm more than happy for ZOS to reduce requirements to get up to purple jewelry, but gold should stay difficult to achieve.

Jayne_Doe

My main issue is that zircon is much harder for me to acquire than chromium. I know many players only care about that, as they just want to upgrade their purple jewelry to gold. If that's all they want, then I think the system is perfectly fine.

However, if you want to craft jewelry, it becomes difficult to even upgrade from blue to purple. I have about twice as much chromium as I do zircon, so it makes it difficult for me to even consider crafting my own jewelry, when it will more than likely only be blue.

I would like to see a chance at zircon grains at top tier writs, without it affecting the drop rate of chromium grains. And I agree that dropping plates from crafting writs is a bit much, unless, of course, ZOS increases the upgrade costs to their original values, as the OP suggested, but I wouldn't want that considering that even terne and whatever the blue one is called aren't really that abundant.

I wonder if getting a full plate back when deconning would be better, although I suppose not, since those who can easily get gold jewelry will just decon it all for lots of chromium plating.

Perhaps increasing the drop rate from refining would help. Since it seems like they drop at the same rate as other professions, it takes a lot more refining to get one chromium plate than it does one tempering alloy. I'm not suggesting an equal ratio, but perhaps a modest boost would help. Or perhaps just a boost to the zircon grains and leave chromium where it is, since we can also get them from writs.

Also, we need to keep in mind that not everyone can afford to pay to have 15 characters or that everyone with 15 characters has them all doing top tier JC writs every day. It's no surprise that those who have 15 characters doing top tier JC writs every day are mostly content with the system. But for the average player, JC is far more difficult than the other crafts to actually get any real use out of. And no, I don't think that everyone's experience should be equal and that everyone should have the same access to everything regardless of the time they have to play or the effort they put in. What I'm saying is that there are certain pain points for the average player that maybe could be eased a bit, like perhaps a modest increase to the drop rate of zircon grains. For me, who only does top tier JC writs on a few characters and not even every day, my stash of chromium plating seems fine relative to the effort I've put in. But zircon seems off.

Starlock

tmbrinks wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Sounds pretty good, @Cortimi. Personally, I'd be fine with gold platings be left out of the jewelry crafting dailies. I just want enough green/blue/purple platings and trait stones to... actually be able to use jewelry crafting? I remember watching the abundant complaints about it during the PTS days, but wanting to verify it for myself when the system came out. I was hoping the initial criticisms were wrong, but they weren't. The system is non-functional. It's non-functional even for relatively dedicated players who put a lot of time into this game. If the whole grain system just dies in fire it would fix the entire system instantly.

how is it non-functional?

Added traits for jewelry has revolutionized DPS builds, by allowing the usage of sets that otherwise could not be reliably used.

The ability to run double crafted sets (if you desired) is now possible.

They have already listened to many of the criticisms. They dropped the cost by 50% from the launch of JC. They increased the voucher value of the master writs by a factor of 4 (It's not enough, but that's not the point)

When you speak in generic platitudes and hyperbole, it takes away from your argument.

I wish it was a platitude and hyperbole.

I play this game quite a lot; full-time equivalent in hours per week provided I'm not playing some other game. Since Summerset dropped, I have upgraded a grand total of one blue ring to purple. I've transmuted a grand total of one necklace to a different trait. I have crafted zero jewelry items from scratch. The only thing I have gotten out of jewelry crafting is a new dye - one new dye (I have never gotten enough stuff to get the second one) - and a bit of extra gold when doing daily crafting writs.

That's ridiculous enough for me to call the system non-functional. The system is unnecessarily difficult. In no other profession do I have to go out of my way to practice it. Doing my usual overland questing, picking up mats as I go, and doing the occasional crafting writ is enough to keep me supplied and able to use all other crafting systems. That's not the case with jewelry crafting. In no other profession would I have to mindlessly devote dozens if not hundreds of hours grinding just to get any use out of it. I'm not going to change how I play the game just to use jewelry crafting. I shouldn't have to in the first place. If I cannot use the system without spending all of my gaming time chasing it, forget it. That's non-functional. It's even worse for people who play this game with less devotion than a full-time job.

The grains system dying in fire would fix most of this instantly. Acquisition of trait stones would still be a problem, but I could live with that if the grains system died in fire.

Non-functional would imply that nothing in it works. That is a patently false statement, that is the platitudes and hyperbole I'm referring too. You can get a bloodthirsty ring from running a trial, research it in 6 hours, and transmute your gear to bloodthirsty to increase your dps. I'd say that's pretty damn functional.

I don't care if you think it's functional - I'm telling you that for me and how I play the game, it isn't. Understand? You obviously play the game differently than I do. Because of that, maybe for you it functions correctly. Maybe for you this would be a "platitude" or "hyperbole" or "lie." For me it is not. Because of how the system was designed, I cannot make use jewelry crafting playing how I normally play. I have to go out of my way to make any use of it. That isn't the case for any other profession and I do not understand why jewelry crafting was designed so differently. I expected it to be like any other type of crafting - perfectly usable with me playing how I normally play, but it isn't like that. This system is and will remain non-functional garbage for players like me until it is fixed to be brought in line with the other professions. If that's not your experience, more power to you, but your experience with it is not mine.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

The problem isn't upgrading items available in vet level or the gold vendor. There are pieces of jewelry that come from delves, dolems or crafting that are close to if not BiS. These pieces are dropped as blues and take many months to upgrade to gold. I've been playing ESO for about a year and would say seriously crafting for about 10 months. In that time I have been able to craft or acquire all of the pieces for my pet sorc. Also during that time I have been able to upgrade all of the body pieces and weapons to gold. During the same period I have managed to get two of my jewelry to gold, one of which was completed last week. It has taken me 4 -5 months per piece due to the dismal Chromium and even worse Zircon drop rates. This includes me buying some materials to finish off the one or two grains I needed to finish a plate. I've not even touched on the useless jewelry master writs because of the amount of time it takes to gather grains and turn them into plates.

I understand people want jewelry to be special but it is broken when I can upgrade nine pieces to gold strictly by gathering in the time it took to do two jewelry buying some materials. The same goes for master writs. I've been able to complete many master writs in all of the other crafts yet not one in jewelry due to scarcity of materials. For this same reason there is no market for jewelry writs and at times you can't even give them away. While material drops don't necessarily need to be as often as the other crafts there needs to be a big improvement in drop rates otherwise the skill has little long term use.

Taleof2Cities

I’m sorry, @Starlock, there’s a difference between non-functional for your playstyle ... and not putting in the time to get anything out of the craft.

You say you’ve leveled the other crafting skills ... so why not just level jewelry crafting and stop asking for a handout?

Platings can be gained through writs, decon of raw mats, or just buying them in the guild store. Most players (including this player) have no problem with it.

You choosing not to spend the requisite time it takes to gain platings isn’t anyone else’s fault ... especially not ZOS’s.

Bouldercleave

tmbrinks wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

This is rather contradictory. If there is "not a huge difference in stats between purple and and gold jewelry", then there really is no point in keeping it locked behind a massive grind wall.

Either the stats aren't that great, which means it should be easy to acquire, or the bonus is great and requires a great grind.

As it sits, the effort does not match the reward. That's the entire problem.

You also didn't really pay attention to the entire post. I suggested upping the improvement requirements to match Blacksmithing and Clothing. Also, grains do not drop from every high level writ, so as I stated, keeping the chances the same, there is no way to just "do four" and call it a day. So even with perfect RNG, it would be 24 (requirement of 8 plates for 3 pieces) days to upgrade from purple to gold. That's over a month of perfect RNG for gold jewelry, not four days. So if the chances are actually 1 in 4 of getting a plate from a writ, you are looking at 4 months, statistically. That is plenty long enough.

Also keep in mind that JC isn't the only thing you are grinding. You have to get skyshards, do dungeons, and quest for the skill points to be able to have all of the Crafting available.

So people either invest the time to be able to craft themselves, or they pick a line and pay others to get what they can't make. This wouldn't change that constant, and the reward for time spent is pretty dismal for this line.

I have 15 max level jewelry crafters that I do writs on. Between the grains I get (about 20% drop rate), and the surveys, and then refining the raw materials. I get about 3-4 Chromium platings a week. Thus, 3-4 weeks and I can upgrade a full set a gear. Are you okay with 4 weeks to upgrade?

The 4 week upgrade time frame is IF you have 15 max level Jewelry Crafters all grinding? No thank you. That is an INSANE amount of grind to expect from the average to even above average player.

rustle911

There’s a lot here that I want to respond to, and a lot of good points made.

1. The ESO economy really isn’t as stable as you would think. Again I’ll point out the perception versus reality. I don’t want my arguments to devolve into PC versus Console, but again, you enjoy advantages on the PC that we on console don’t have access too. While having a search tool on guild vendors helps, you can search all vendors from a website. Multiple ones in fact, and that’s just based on what I’ve seen from discord pricebot references. I see prices fluctuate 200-300% month to month for everything from mats, to motifs, to gear.
2. The Golden is an AP sink that was highly underutilized before the introduction of battlegrounds. ZoS had to add an extra pvp environment due to the fact that Cyrodiil had become so underplayed because of lag and other issues. There are quite a few other AP sinks available. As a PvE player, the Golden takes more of my gold as I almost never see the jewelry I need and the monster sets I buy require gold for the trait I want.
3. Jayne_doe’s point about zircon versus chromium is spot on. The change to crafting crate rewards has made it more so. Receiving chromium grains has actually done more for me there than farming mats has. But if I don’t already have epic jewelry, that does me little good. In the long run it’s going to drive down the cost of chromium platings and drive up the cost of zircon platings as as the ratio of each in the economy is going to become more disproportionate. I actually sell chromium platings and use the gold to buy zircon platings.
4. Taleof2Cities comment in regards to how one can obtain platings is, in the words of tmbrinks, “patently false”. You can’t obtain a plating from deconning raw mats or through writs. You can obtain grains through those two activities. You can then refine those grains into platings. I can also obtain grains through deconning gear. But even if I was guaranteed upgrade mats from every deconned item, it would be a 10-1 ratio of platings to other upgrade materials. Meaning that I would have to decon 10 purple pieces of jewelry to get a zircon plating, and 1 purple piece of light or medium armor to get an elegant lining. Even at the cost difference to perform the upgrade 3 platings to 4 linings, that’s a 15/2 ratio of deconned items.
5. Lastly, having to have 15 toons doing daily crafting writs to make JC a viable system is ridiculous. One, that means I need buy, with crowns(cash, I know someone can sell/buy crowns for gold) 7 more character slots. It currently, with load times, takes me about 30-35 minutes to do all my crafting writs on all of my 4 characters. I play on Console and don’t have access to any crafting helper add-ons. It is most likely that I never will. If I limit myself to 12 characters, ecause I like easy math, then I would have to spend an hour and a half each day crafting, just to make jewelry crafting viable. Like Starlock, I’m not playing the game to do nothing but craft. I want to play the rest of the game.

All of the above having been said, I don’t believe JC needs a major overhaul. A few tweaks to material availability would significantly improve it. I also doubt that any of those changes will greatly affect the economy in any permanent way. It has weathered quite a few things over the years. The indroduction of Jewelry materials, changes to popular gear sets, and availability of drops based on those completing the content. A lot of good ideas have been put forward. Most of them should be relatively easy to incorporate, and if the suggestion goes to far, then they can adjust the scope. That is what the PTS is for.

Starlock

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I’m sorry, there’s a difference between non-functional for your playstyle ... and not putting in the time to get anything out of the craft.

You say you’ve leveled the other crafting skills ... so why not just level jewelry crafting and stop asking for a handout?

It amazes me how people manage to ignore the nuances of what I'm pointing out to put the blame on me and say I'm asking for handouts. In spite of pointing out out that for every single other profession, I don't have to disrupt my normal gameplay to make use of it, that gets ignored. Not important information, apparently. Gods forbid that jewelry crafting be in line with other professions, right? That's all I'm asking for. Maybe it's easier for you on PC with your fancy add-ons, but the reality is jewelry crafting in its current state would demand I devote all of my time to it to really make use of it.

tmbrinks

Starlock wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I’m sorry, there’s a difference between non-functional for your playstyle ... and not putting in the time to get anything out of the craft.

You say you’ve leveled the other crafting skills ... so why not just level jewelry crafting and stop asking for a handout?

It amazes me how people manage to ignore the nuances of what I'm pointing out to put the blame on me and say I'm asking for handouts. In spite of pointing out out that for every single other profession, I don't have to disrupt my normal gameplay to make use of it, that gets ignored. Not important information, apparently. Gods forbid that jewelry crafting be in line with other professions, right? That's all I'm asking for. Maybe it's easier for you on PC with your fancy add-ons, but the reality is jewelry crafting in its current state would demand I devote all of my time to it to really make use of it.

Gods forbid that something be special in the game, so that those who are actually willing to put in the time get something special. Everything else has been nerfed to the ground in terms of grinding over the past few years, it's kind of nice to have something to strive/work for. It's pretty boring having everything handed to you.

rustle911

tmbrinks wrote: »

Gods forbid that something be special in the game, so that those who are actually willing to put in the time get something special. Everything else has been nerfed to the ground in terms of grinding over the past few years, it's kind of nice to have something to strive/work for. It's pretty boring having everything handed to you.

Most of us aren’t asking for it to be handed to us. What we’re asking for is the ability to use a feature that we paid for without having to sacrifice half of the other things that we want to do while playing. I don’t want to sacrifice half of my daily playtime and 7500 crowns in additional character slots to make a crafting system viable. You can call it special, but there is nothing special about it. I don’t get any satisfaction from doing something repetitively for hours that requires no skill and has no downside. I get satisfaction from finally completing a difficult trial, dungeon, or quest. Or from figuring out how to improve my toons through new gear, skills, or rotation. Not from spending 2 hours a day logging in and out of characters completing crafting writs where the biggest danger is running out of materials or accidentally stealing something next to the drop boxes and getting caught by a guard.

The system is not balanced. No matter how you work it out, the rewards do not reflect the work put in. The 50% reduction in cost still leaves us with a system that produces 1/3 the result for 5 times the effort of other crafting skill lines. Not everyone who plays the game has access to cheat codes that make the process easier. If you want to defend it, then remove all of your add-ons and play a 100% vanilla game for 6 months. Do all your crafting manually, shop for all of your mats going trader to trader, and do it all with a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse. Then you can tell me how suggesting minor tweaks is the same as asking for everything to be handed to me.

tmbrinks

rustle911 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Gods forbid that something be special in the game, so that those who are actually willing to put in the time get something special. Everything else has been nerfed to the ground in terms of grinding over the past few years, it's kind of nice to have something to strive/work for. It's pretty boring having everything handed to you.

Most of us aren’t asking for it to be handed to us. What we’re asking for is the ability to use a feature that we paid for without having to sacrifice half of the other things that we want to do while playing. I don’t want to sacrifice half of my daily playtime and 7500 crowns in additional character slots to make a crafting system viable. You can call it special, but there is nothing special about it. I don’t get any satisfaction from doing something repetitively for hours that requires no skill and has no downside. I get satisfaction from finally completing a difficult trial, dungeon, or quest. Or from figuring out how to improve my toons through new gear, skills, or rotation. Not from spending 2 hours a day logging in and out of characters completing crafting writs where the biggest danger is running out of materials or accidentally stealing something next to the drop boxes and getting caught by a guard.

The system is not balanced. No matter how you work it out, the rewards do not reflect the work put in. The 50% reduction in cost still leaves us with a system that produces 1/3 the result for 5 times the effort of other crafting skill lines. Not everyone who plays the game has access to cheat codes that make the process easier. If you want to defend it, then remove all of your add-ons and play a 100% vanilla game for 6 months. Do all your crafting manually, shop for all of your mats going trader to trader, and do it all with a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse. Then you can tell me how suggesting minor tweaks is the same as asking for everything to be handed to me.

Since we are talking about jewelry crafting... the daily writs follow a specific pattern. At max tier, Day 1 is 3 rings, Day 2 is 1 ring, 1 neck, day 3 is 2 necks (may be in a different order, but those are the days). Spend less than 5 minutes; make 16 rings and 12 necks. You have just crafted your writs on that character for the next 12 days. I have the entire rotations for all writs in a spreadsheet, with the materials needed. You can do the same.

I don't use the "website" for crafting materials, nobody does... or if they do, they're wasting their time. I think you overestimate the power of TTC for PC. More than 50% of the time, if you look up an item, it's only been uploaded to the site because somebody else was looking for it and bought it. It's gone. It's been sold. Even if it says seen "5 minutes ago". I'd guess it's actually going to be significantly worse with the text search, as there will be less results "seen" by the add-on, thus less data uploaded to TTC. I run around from city to city, just like you! (I don't even need to as much any more with the changes to materials received from writs with Wrathstone)

Input device is a personal choice. I know plenty of PC players who use a controller regardless, if that's how deep the argument is going... yikes.

If you're going to use math... it requires 5x the effort. (8 to upgrade for normal / 4 for jewelry x 10 grains/plating = 5 ) So it's 5x the effort for the same reward, not 1/3rd.

Don't buy the character slots... it'll just be twice as long, for half the work because you have less characters. That's personal choice again. So it takes about 8 weeks to get enough for a full set, rather than 4.

I too get enjoyment from completing trials, skins, hard modes, etc... I also have plenty of fellow raiders who are poor and can barely afford to even buy the potions they use. I don't have to worry about that, ever, because I have done the other work to build up resources and wealth in the game.

Zircon is the bottleneck in the process. I have proposed that ZoS adds a jewelry crafter hireling to help that. I've also suggested (in other threads) that they include zircon grains in the drops from the daily writs (even though that'd be different than the other crafts, as you cannot get purple upgrade mats from blacksmithing/clothing/woodworking).

rustle911

Exactly, zircon is the bottleneck. It’s the largest pain point for jewelry upgrades, and JC in general. By 1/3 the reward, I mean that I get to upgrade 3 pieces of jewelry and 9 pieces of other gear. 3/9=1/3. Also, let’s remember that the cost to improve is only 1/2 at the top and bottom tiers. To go from fine to superior is 2 iridium v 3 of the other mats and 3 v 4 going from superior to epic.

If all I do is jewelry crafting, the time consumption to get chromium grains is definitely less, but I also wouldn’t be having these arguments because I wouldn’t have something to compare it to. I do all 7 writs when I do them. Craft bag content not withstanding, I need 3 blacksmith, 3 woodworking, 3 clothier, 2-3 jewelry, 2 provisioning, 1 enchanting, and 1 alchemy. Since alchemy is on a different cycle, I will disregard it for this argument. One rotation of the other 6 crafts takes, In the previously listed order 9+9+9+7+6+3, or 43 inventory slots. To do 12 days, or 4 cycles, is 36+36+36+28+6(provisioning stacks)+12, or 154 inventory slots. That times 4 characters is 616 slots. I don’t know about any one else, but I don’t know where I would be keeping that.

Again, the major pain points here are in the middle. The upgrade costs in time and gold from fine to epic are not commensurate with the reward. Jewelry is supposed to be the icing to a build. That’s why it’s effects are less than other gear. So why is the icing so much more expensive than the rest of the cake? I’m not asking for handouts, I’m asking for better balance. I want to be able to do master JC writs, not wipe my butt with them and throw them away.