Should we nerf/fix siege engines?

InvictusApollo

Recently due to a bug all siege engines started overperforming. They are now capable of instantly killing a player. This forces people to roll dodge and play more tactically. Even my AD pug group started to use tactics! Sieging castles and outposts takes much longer and requires more effort. Defending a castle is a viable tactic. We don't see constant castle flipping depending on whose zerg group is near a castle. Attackers can no longer ram the gate while completely ignoring boiling oil. No longer can you stay on your siege engine while being targeted by an enemy siege engine. Siege engines are being deployed even during open field infantry battles. More players use stealth and flank siege operators to counter this new tactic. Furthermore even low level, inexperienced, ill equiped players are valuable team members that contribute as siege engine operators while more experienced players protect them from gankers or battle in the field. New siege engines are even allowing some degree of countering specialized ball groups that just roll through other groups while spamming aoe attacks.

Many players voiced their concern and demanded a nerf to sieges.
On the other hand also many players welcome this change.
Developers have promised to fix the bug, but maybe it shouldn't be fixed.
What is your opinion?

Alucardo

They were too weak before. They're too powerful now. Somewhere inbetween would be fine. I'd say leave them as they are now IF performance wasn't so freaking choppy, making dodging multiple sieges being fired at you almost impossible.

VaranisArano

ZOS is fixing them.

Now, we can debate about future changes, and ZOS is apparently doing internally.

As far as I'm concerned, the last time ZOS buffed siege, they reverted it.

So why are we eager to do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

zyk

Gina has said they're looking at our feedback about siege. We don't know whether they'll revert them completely or buff them compared to the previous update.

I don't think weak siege is really the problem. The problem is the awful tank meta we've had for so long combined with over the top healing. And it's getting worse. The tank meta also applies to ball groups. I think OP siege is so welcome because it's been a solution to it.

It will continue to get worse too, because it makes sense to build tanky and compensate with bleeds and/or proc sets. This is because defensive sets generally have greater stat density than offensive sets.

I don't like fights being decided by cold fire siege, but what I have enjoyed is that OP siege has really shaken things up. Every battlefield feels much more dynamic. This game is best when it's fast.

I'm really interested to see if Brian Wheeler does anything substantially different with combat design.

Gipo

Now ppl just put a siege on the ground instead of 1v1 you... how stupid is this...

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

Gina has said they're looking at our feedback about siege. We don't know whether they'll revert them completely or buff them compared to the previous update.

Well, we do know about what they are doing with the current broken state of siege.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just to clear things up - when it was said that this is something we're discussing, it wasn't to keep siege's currently-broken state. Just that we're talking about potentially increasing the damage of siege from how it's been. Again, nothing set it stone, we're just talking like you all are.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5862088#Comment_5862088

Now, what the result of the "we're just talking like you all are" is going to be... who knows.

Gipo

Death by siege (25k damage) > rez > can't mount because of in combat bug > run for few mins > death by siege (27k damage) > rez > can't mount because of in combat bug... fu zos

zyk

VaranisArano wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Gina has said they're looking at our feedback about siege. We don't know whether they'll revert them completely or buff them compared to the previous update.

Well, we do know about what they are doing with the current broken state of siege.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just to clear things up - when it was said that this is something we're discussing, it wasn't to keep siege's currently-broken state. Just that we're talking about potentially increasing the damage of siege from how it's been. Again, nothing set it stone, we're just talking like you all are.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5862088#Comment_5862088

Now, what the result of the "we're just talking like you all are" is going to be... who knows.

That's exactly what I said. Because ZOS is discussing it, I would think our feedback is important.

Soul_Demon

The siege damage can be increased, however the current state of damage is untenable. The only players who seem to like it don't siege or take keeps or objectives anyway, so of course they like it....it generates more people where they are. Siege should be hard hitting, but without counter play as it currently is, no mitigations whatsoever- its not fun, but rather we see the static nature it creates. Players right now can only do four things. 1. Play a ganker or pug farmer 2. sit in keeps and defend from walls with siege 3. PvDoor all the keeps that are not defended 4. form enormous zergs to deal with the attrition rate All of these things in the past have been spoken about by the community and they want in all the cases to reduce those things, not increase them. Increase damage from siege, but make the "types" fire, cold, disease and physical- so our resistances work and our skills that specifically reduce siege damage work again as well as armor, skills and passives.

ChunkyCat

Is this about sharing your Netflix password?

InvictusApollo

Gipo wrote: »

Now ppl just put a siege on the ground instead of 1v1 you... how stupid is this...

I dare you to put a siege engine during a 1v1 with me. I double dare you!

Soul_Demon wrote: »

The siege damage can be increased, however the current state of damage is untenable. The only players who seem to like it don't siege or take keeps or objectives anyway, so of course they like it....it generates more people where they are.

I do siege, take keeps, take objectives and I love the new siege engines so your statement is not very accurate.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Siege should be hard hitting, but without counter play as it currently is, no mitigations whatsoever- its not fun, but rather we see the static nature it creates.

There are many counters to it:

1. Roll dodge.
2. Time your attacks between enemy fire.
3. Predict where ballista will be firing and just avoid that spot.
4. Teleport with streak or ball of lightning as a sorcerer.
5. Fake disengage and flank your enemy.
6. If there are too many keep defenders using siege engines then you can order your team to make a coordinated artillery strike. Simply put several players place their trebuchets at the same time and fire all at once at enemy siege engines. Afterwards they keep firing to deny defensive spots from being reinforced by enemy siege engines.
7. Put your own siege engines to deny area or destroy enemy siege engines.
8. Sneak.
9. Hard cc siege operators.
10. Spread out to minimize casualties.
11. Assess the situiation and chose a moment to resurrect your teamates.
12. Lure enemies into an ambush to barrage them with ballista fire.
13. Deny defensive spots on enemy wall by spamming combos close to wall and roll dodging enemy siege engines fire. SInce yoiu are so close to a wall in most situations you have to deal with only a single siege engine firing at you. And if its firing at you then it is not firing at your teammates.
14. Bait ballista fire.
15. When attacking a tower that has two balistas pointed at the stairs, you can just time your attack right and close the gap swiftly, cc siege operators and kill everyone.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Players right now can only do four things. 1. Play a ganker or pug farmer

Thats what you can allways do if you have good equipment and some skill. Sieges haven't changed that. The only difference is that with increased siege equipment damage you actually have to be even more aware of your and enemy positions on the battlefield.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Players right now can only do four things. 2. sit in keeps and defend from walls with siege

And before in order to capture a keep you just joined a group, placed some siege engines to break the wall faster than defenders could press "E". Then you stacked and crossed the breach while having wards and aoe heals spammed. The team with more players spamming heals and aoe won. There was completely no tactic involved. And if you were on the defending side then just by looking at team sizes you could easily predict who is going to win unless some new group comes to aid.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Players right now can only do four things. 3. PvDoor all the keeps that are not defended

Actually you can't do that now. Unless a keep is completely empty then there is allways someone who can put several siege engines and defend untill reinforcements arrive. Before that person would have to have a bomb build to significantly slow down attackers.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Players right now can only do four things. 4. form enormous zergs to deal with the attrition rate

New siege engines actually balance out chances against "enormous zergs"



The best thing about new siege engines is that they force groups to spread out. Before you were completely immune to damage when you stacked with others and had healers spam healing. Was that fun? Running and gunning while being invincible? Having low fps and huge ping because of so many people so close together?
Now that people are spread out there are multiple small scale fights on the battlefield.
You can actually turn the tide by defeating enemies to the left or right of main group. You can flank! Before it didn't matter if one or few players managed to get behind your group. Now it does.

Soul_Demon

So, you started a poll and give your opinion and then ask "what is your opinion" at the end.....so you could argue with others what their opinions are if it differs? I looked at the response and it would take nearly half a page of text to refute the points you bring up- since clearly you merely wanted to have a way to push what you wanted to say beyond the opening thoughts and were looking for a vehicle to do that. Let me just say not only are you wrong, but you are perfectly able to have those opinions and be wrong if you so desire.

InvictusApollo

Soul_Demon wrote: »

So, you started a poll and give your opinion and then ask "what is your opinion" at the end.....so you could argue with others what their opinions are if it differs? I looked at the response and it would take nearly half a page of text to refute the points you bring up- since clearly you merely wanted to have a way to push what you wanted to say beyond the opening thoughts and were looking for a vehicle to do that. Let me just say not only are you wrong, but you are perfectly able to have those opinions and be wrong if you so desire.

Just because I ask for others opinion doesn't mean that I don't have my own opinion. I even have a right to expres it.
If I wanted to "push it" I would put some bias into poll questions which I haven't so please stop accusing me without having any proof. Do I want siege engiones to be powerfull? Ofcourse I do - I have never had so much fun in Cyrodill before.

If you think that I am wrong then that is fine by me as you have a right to have your own opinion.
I am open to discussion.

Siege bug has made Cyro pvp great again.
Please change my mind.

Earthewen

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Recently due to a bug all siege engines started overperforming. They are now capable of instantly killing a player. This forces people to roll dodge and play more tactically. Even my AD pug group started to use tactics! Sieging castles and outposts takes much longer and requires more effort. Defending a castle is a viable tactic. We don't see constant castle flipping depending on whose zerg group is near a castle. Attackers can no longer ram the gate while completely ignoring boiling oil. No longer can you stay on your siege engine while being targeted by an enemy siege engine. Siege engines are being deployed even during open field infantry battles. More players use stealth and flank siege operators to counter this new tactic. Furthermore even low level, inexperienced, ill equiped players are valuable team members that contribute as siege engine operators while more experienced players protect them from gankers or battle in the field. New siege engines are even allowing some degree of countering specialized ball groups that just roll through other groups while spamming aoe attacks.

Many players voiced their concern and demanded a nerf to sieges.
On the other hand also many players welcome this change.
Developers have promised to fix the bug, but maybe it shouldn't be fixed.
What is your opinion?

let's take a look not only at what players have to resort to now (staying inside keeps and just defending for the most part or pvdooring), but let's look at all of the sets that have now been rendered moot because of the oblivion damage that is non-mitigatable. All the sets that healers use to put a damage shield on their team when they heal are no longer of any use. All sets that increase the shields effects and/or time up is now no longer of any use. All shield skills that can be cast that mitigated all siege damage is now no longer of any use. All sets that teams used to lower incoming damage is now no longer of any use. let's also include all the passive skills that reduced different kinds of damage like all the new racial passives that ZOS went to such trouble to put on everyone's chosen race. Many passives are now no longer of viable use. The list goes on and on.

Stupid people tend to look for an 'I WIN" button. It would seem they found one.

Ranger209

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS is fixing them.

Now, we can debate about future changes, and ZOS is apparently doing internally.

As far as I'm concerned, the last time ZOS buffed siege, they reverted it.

So why are we eager to do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

Perhaps people over-reacted the first time, and since then more have come to like the more potent siege. I personally was a fan of it both times. It allows a few people to put up enough defense to get some kind of response from others while defending a keep. I think it slows down the map flipping and I am a fan of that as well. To me things flip way too fast.

InvictusApollo

Earthewen wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Recently due to a bug all siege engines started overperforming. They are now capable of instantly killing a player. This forces people to roll dodge and play more tactically. Even my AD pug group started to use tactics! Sieging castles and outposts takes much longer and requires more effort. Defending a castle is a viable tactic. We don't see constant castle flipping depending on whose zerg group is near a castle. Attackers can no longer ram the gate while completely ignoring boiling oil. No longer can you stay on your siege engine while being targeted by an enemy siege engine. Siege engines are being deployed even during open field infantry battles. More players use stealth and flank siege operators to counter this new tactic. Furthermore even low level, inexperienced, ill equiped players are valuable team members that contribute as siege engine operators while more experienced players protect them from gankers or battle in the field. New siege engines are even allowing some degree of countering specialized ball groups that just roll through other groups while spamming aoe attacks.

Many players voiced their concern and demanded a nerf to sieges.
On the other hand also many players welcome this change.
Developers have promised to fix the bug, but maybe it shouldn't be fixed.
What is your opinion?

let's take a look not only at what players have to resort to now (staying inside keeps and just defending for the most part or pvdooring), but let's look at all of the sets that have now been rendered moot because of the oblivion damage that is non-mitigatable. All the sets that healers use to put a damage shield on their team when they heal are no longer of any use. All sets that increase the shields effects and/or time up is now no longer of any use. All shield skills that can be cast that mitigated all siege damage is now no longer of any use. All sets that teams used to lower incoming damage is now no longer of any use. let's also include all the passive skills that reduced different kinds of damage like all the new racial passives that ZOS went to such trouble to put on everyone's chosen race. Many passives are now no longer of viable use. The list goes on and on.

Stupid people tend to look for an 'I WIN" button. It would seem they found one.

Are you serious with what you just said? Have you even played Cyro recently? There are still fights between players. Siege engines just make them more intensive since both teams have to watch their step. If what you were saying was true, then how would I be able to rack over 50 kills yesterday without using a siege engine and dying not so very often?
Now battles look like real battles and not just duels of ball groups.

Earthewen

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Recently due to a bug all siege engines started overperforming. They are now capable of instantly killing a player. This forces people to roll dodge and play more tactically. Even my AD pug group started to use tactics! Sieging castles and outposts takes much longer and requires more effort. Defending a castle is a viable tactic. We don't see constant castle flipping depending on whose zerg group is near a castle. Attackers can no longer ram the gate while completely ignoring boiling oil. No longer can you stay on your siege engine while being targeted by an enemy siege engine. Siege engines are being deployed even during open field infantry battles. More players use stealth and flank siege operators to counter this new tactic. Furthermore even low level, inexperienced, ill equiped players are valuable team members that contribute as siege engine operators while more experienced players protect them from gankers or battle in the field. New siege engines are even allowing some degree of countering specialized ball groups that just roll through other groups while spamming aoe attacks.

Many players voiced their concern and demanded a nerf to sieges.
On the other hand also many players welcome this change.
Developers have promised to fix the bug, but maybe it shouldn't be fixed.
What is your opinion?

let's take a look not only at what players have to resort to now (staying inside keeps and just defending for the most part or pvdooring), but let's look at all of the sets that have now been rendered moot because of the oblivion damage that is non-mitigatable. All the sets that healers use to put a damage shield on their team when they heal are no longer of any use. All sets that increase the shields effects and/or time up is now no longer of any use. All shield skills that can be cast that mitigated all siege damage is now no longer of any use. All sets that teams used to lower incoming damage is now no longer of any use. let's also include all the passive skills that reduced different kinds of damage like all the new racial passives that ZOS went to such trouble to put on everyone's chosen race. Many passives are now no longer of viable use. The list goes on and on.

Stupid people tend to look for an 'I WIN" button. It would seem they found one.

Are you serious with what you just said? Have you even played Cyro recently? There are still fights between players. Siege engines just make them more intensive since both teams have to watch their step. If what you were saying was true, then how would I be able to rack over 50 kills yesterday without using a siege engine and dying not so very often?
Now battles look like real battles and not just duels of ball groups.

Are you serious with what you just said? Please tell me where you were fighting when you got those 50 kills without siege as a solo player? I'd really like to know which keep and in whose siege you were standing in for it to protect you so mightily and help you get those kills? Let's face it. Even the small groups are now hanging out in places where they are protected by their faction-mates who are using siege. Show me your proof of where you were fighting and that there was no siege around you to help out. If anything, the ball zergs are bigger than they were before the siege changes.

InvictusApollo

Earthewen wrote: »

Are you serious with what you just said? Please tell me where you were fighting when you got those 50 kills without siege as a solo player? I'd really like to know which keep and in whose siege you were standing in for it to protect you so mightily and help you get those kills? Let's face it. Even the small groups are now hanging out in places where they are protected by their faction-mates who are using siege. Show me your proof of where you were fighting and that there was no siege around you to help out. If anything, the ball zergs are bigger than they were before the siege changes.

Sure. It was an awesome fight between Nikel Outpost and Ash Castle. Sotha Sil campaign. There were multiple battles between DC and AD in several points. We defended at Nikel, then pushed to milegate, had some fight in there, then to Ash. Then we got pushed back. On and on untill our group started to use some more advanced tactics and we finally captured Ash. It was glorious! People were deploying sieges to give support to front lines. Front lines where fighting each other while watching for red circles.
And the best thing was that neither side was stacked into a single invincible group. There were multiple small scale fights between players along the battle line.
As for how I got so many kills without suffering many deaths its because I've been doing the obvious thing, which is flanking from one side to attack enemies from behind and destroy their siege engines. I've done all of my kills using just my combos. And I'm not counting assists. An addon counted kills for me. Sure there were siege engines on both sides and they did support. Without them both teams would just form stacked ball groups and clash. At one point people got so used to siege engines that balistas were rather used to gain some ground and deny some spots rather than to kill.
I don't see whats so special about that number of kills. It lasted several hours and we were battling almost constantly.

Today was also awesome. I tried those "OP" siege engines that some people whine about but I haven't got any kills with them. However they were usefull for denying ground to enemies. We were defending Castle Roebeck from a huge blue zerg group. Fortunately they weren't very organized so they couldn't brake through our defenses neither with pure numbers or stacked group. If it wasn't for the siege engines they would surely tank&heal all siege damage and broke through.

I can make screenshots next time.

zyk

Earthewen wrote: »

Stupid people tend to look for an 'I WIN" button. It would seem they found one.

There's an equally valid argument floating around that players capable of avoiding siege are the intelligent ones.

Earthewen

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

TheBonesXXX

zyk wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Stupid people tend to look for an 'I WIN" button. It would seem they found one.

There's an equally valid argument floating around that players capable of avoiding siege are the intelligent ones.

+1 for nuance.

usmcjdking

Earthewen wrote: »

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered Earthgore totally useless.

GOD BLESS

TheBonesXXX

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

There is not a keep in the game that can't be broken into. There is not a keeping the game that can't be defended.

There are only players who can and cannot be bothered.

zyk

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

There are only players who can and cannot be bothered.

No kidding. It's like everyone has forgotten how AvA used to be when groups were constantly repositioning, using misdirection and even stealth on a regular basis.

For a long time now fights have felt like everyone is just going through the motions for AP. I don't think the current broken siege is a long term solution, but it has badly exposed problems that need to be addressed.

VaranisArano

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

zyk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

That doesn't speak to what the goal is at all. If they are buffing siege as often as they are nerfing it, that suggests a moving target -- perhaps as the relative effectiveness of siege changes with the meta.

Lady_Scorp72

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

When was the last time they buffed siege? I only started PVP about a year ago, so I’m curious if it was before battlegrounds, increase in CP, and the new sets/monster helm sets. I’m wondering if all those things have mitigated siege damage so much, that the reverted changes might work better now. That said, it’s definitely too much as it stands today, but I’m in the camp that would like to see it buffed in some fashion.

TheBonesXXX

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

VaranisArano

Lady_Scorp72 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

When was the last time they buffed siege? I only started PVP about a year ago, so I’m curious if it was before battlegrounds, increase in CP, and the new sets/monster helm sets. I’m wondering if all those things have mitigated siege damage so much, that the reverted changes might work better now. That said, it’s definitely too much as it stands today, but I’m in the camp that would like to see it buffed in some fashion.

Its pretty recent, actually.
Summerset saw catapult damage buffed, resulting in effectively the same type of tactics that we saw now with this bug (which is more severe and impacts all types of siege).
Wolfhunter saw that change reverted, while increasing siege damage in CP Campaigns only to better match No CP siege damage.

In short, this bug took us back to a (worse) version of what we saw during Summerset, and Wolfhunter's reverting of that change brought us back to pre-Summerset tactics.

Now, we've got a bunch of players wanting to go back to the Summerset version, and I just don't see where anything's changed to support going back to a state of affairs where that buff got reverted.

Minno

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

pre-patch:
- most keep fights were spread out. No one touched FD, and if they did it was spread out with ranged siege.
- maps looked static on tri-keeps but overall fights we dynamic.
- ball groups werent trolling as much
- lag was choppy during heavy keep fights but quickly went away.

post patch:
- first 3 keep/outpost fights were boring zerg stacks on front door lol.
- zergs more bloodthirsty on anyone that attacked flanks solo.
- ball groups returned with strong heals
- DC pushed back to glade (like it always was in murkmire). Harder to defend keeps if you were facing against a faction stack
- lag was just as bad at 9am with 2 bar pop versus primetime weekend with pop locked factions during OP siege. Probably don't need to test during primetime to know that there will be such terrible lag you all will be complaining again lol.

conclusions:
- map dynamics need something to checkmate zergs. There is no mechanic that punishes faction stacks.
- OP siege was fun, but notconsistent across game modes. Would like to see something introduced (not artifacts) that punishes zergs without needing a ball group/zerg.
- seriously doubt any other changes to cyro will result in the punishing mechanics we saw over the week of "op"siege.

Minalan

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

pre-patch:
- most keep fights were spread out. No one touched FD, and if they did it was spread out with ranged siege.
- maps looked static on tri-keeps but overall fights we dynamic.
- ball groups werent trolling as much
- lag was choppy during heavy keep fights but quickly went away.

post patch:
- first 3 keep/outpost fights were boring zerg stacks on front door lol.
- zergs more bloodthirsty on anyone that attacked flanks solo.
- ball groups returned with strong heals
- DC pushed back to glade (like it always was in murkmire). Harder to defend keeps if you were facing against a faction stack
- lag was just as bad at 9am with 2 bar pop versus primetime weekend with pop locked factions during OP siege. Probably don't need to test during primetime to know that there will be such terrible lag you all will be complaining again lol.

conclusions:
- map dynamics need something to checkmate zergs. There is no mechanic that punishes faction stacks.
- OP siege was fun, but notconsistent across game modes. Would like to see something introduced (not artifacts) that punishes zergs without needing a ball group/zerg.
- seriously doubt any other changes to cyro will result in the punishing mechanics we saw over the week of "op"siege.

The most important question and the one many of us want to know: How are the post patch fights down by the Alessia bridge?

IDGAF about the map, or which keep DC can't hold. I'm in this for the fights.