Should we nerf/fix siege engines?

Minno

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

pre-patch:
- most keep fights were spread out. No one touched FD, and if they did it was spread out with ranged siege.
- maps looked static on tri-keeps but overall fights we dynamic.
- ball groups werent trolling as much
- lag was choppy during heavy keep fights but quickly went away.

post patch:
- first 3 keep/outpost fights were boring zerg stacks on front door lol.
- zergs more bloodthirsty on anyone that attacked flanks solo.
- ball groups returned with strong heals
- DC pushed back to glade (like it always was in murkmire). Harder to defend keeps if you were facing against a faction stack
- lag was just as bad at 9am with 2 bar pop versus primetime weekend with pop locked factions during OP siege. Probably don't need to test during primetime to know that there will be such terrible lag you all will be complaining again lol.

conclusions:
- map dynamics need something to checkmate zergs. There is no mechanic that punishes faction stacks.
- OP siege was fun, but notconsistent across game modes. Would like to see something introduced (not artifacts) that punishes zergs without needing a ball group/zerg.
- seriously doubt any other changes to cyro will result in the punishing mechanics we saw over the week of "op"siege.

The most important question and the one many of us want to know: How are the post patch fights down by the Alessia bridge?

IDGAF about the map, or which keep DC can't hold. I'm in this for the fights.

you and I both know that when the zergs clash spaming cc/light attacks/aoes/heals at ales/ash, you will feel the results at the bridge if those numbers don't drop lol.

Lady_Scorp72

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lady_Scorp72 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

When was the last time they buffed siege? I only started PVP about a year ago, so I’m curious if it was before battlegrounds, increase in CP, and the new sets/monster helm sets. I’m wondering if all those things have mitigated siege damage so much, that the reverted changes might work better now. That said, it’s definitely too much as it stands today, but I’m in the camp that would like to see it buffed in some fashion.

Its pretty recent, actually.
Summerset saw catapult damage buffed, resulting in effectively the same type of tactics that we saw now with this bug (which is more severe and impacts all types of siege).
Wolfhunter saw that change reverted, while increasing siege damage in CP Campaigns only to better match No CP siege damage.

In short, this bug took us back to a (worse) version of what we saw during Summerset, and Wolfhunter's reverting of that change brought us back to pre-Summerset tactics.

Now, we've got a bunch of players wanting to go back to the Summerset version, and I just don't see where anything's changed to support going back to a state of affairs where that buff got reverted.

Thanks, I hadn't paid attention much to the changes last year, except it seemed there was a big increase in the type of immortal zerg/ball groups that endlessly run around keeps, which I find annoying. That's why I enjoyed the bug last week, it seemed to make a lot of those groups ineffective. It'll be interesting to see what ZOS comes up with in the next patch!

FleetwoodSmack

While I'm a huge advocate for leaving the bug, there are problems in regards to it. Leaving it, admittedly, would be sloppy because non-CP campaign fights probably end as fast as they start. But here's some ideas with buffed siege in mind.

Though I want to also shatter people's expectations; Standing in siege should actually hurt and even in it's current state, I can stand in it just fine unless I have more than two or three hitting me at once. Keeping this in mind, here's some various things that I've seen in other threads and can see some potential compromises in. It won't solve all the problems, but maybe something can come out of it (but who am I kidding, it's ZoS).

• Only enable the use of siege equipment near objective points. (Keeps, Outposts, Resources, etc). The range around these could be debatable. The caveat to this is people wanting to use meatbag siege.
• Allow people to deploy as many siege as they want, but the first siege they touch is the only one they can use. The rest can either only be packed up or used by other players. This is based on the argument that one person can successfully defend a keep themselves. I personally disagree with it, but for unbiased reasons I'm including it.
• Better telegraph indications since people are reporting that they can't see them. Some based on just server performance, others probably from latency. I do think that if you can hear siege or see what's being said in zone, people shouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden there's a siege fight.
• Introducing new, stronger siege with some kind of voucher system (not any currency that can be gained through the daily reward system, but tbh why tho? This is me being unbiased.).

I do agree that there needs to be mechanics that punishes faction stacks and zergballs, though. Zerging requires no skill at all and it's pretty boring nowdays. I mean yeah, sideline fights are slightly fun... Though I do miss the days where I could just go into Cyrodiil and actually have fun participating in a full on AvA fight. But I also miss broken Nirnhoned. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hopefully something good comes from all of the controversy though.

GreenSoup2HoT

I prefer strong siege.

InvictusApollo

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

pre-patch:
- most keep fights were spread out. No one touched FD, and if they did it was spread out with ranged siege.
- maps looked static on tri-keeps but overall fights we dynamic.
- ball groups werent trolling as much
- lag was choppy during heavy keep fights but quickly went away.

post patch:
- first 3 keep/outpost fights were boring zerg stacks on front door lol.
- zergs more bloodthirsty on anyone that attacked flanks solo.
- ball groups returned with strong heals
- DC pushed back to glade (like it always was in murkmire). Harder to defend keeps if you were facing against a faction stack
- lag was just as bad at 9am with 2 bar pop versus primetime weekend with pop locked factions during OP siege. Probably don't need to test during primetime to know that there will be such terrible lag you all will be complaining again lol.

conclusions:
- map dynamics need something to checkmate zergs. There is no mechanic that punishes faction stacks.
- OP siege was fun, but notconsistent across game modes. Would like to see something introduced (not artifacts) that punishes zergs without needing a ball group/zerg.
- seriously doubt any other changes to cyro will result in the punishing mechanics we saw over the week of "op"siege.

The most important question and the one many of us want to know: How are the post patch fights down by the Alessia bridge?

IDGAF about the map, or which keep DC can't hold. I'm in this for the fights.

I have just returned from battles near Alessia bridge and on bridge. Whats it like? Laggy, boring and diconcerting. Train groups are trolling everywhere. They are almost invincible. During the weekend I've been racking kills left and right. Today I couldn't bring anyone below 90%. Even though they had major defile on them! The only time we managed to kill one such group was when we had numbers advantage three to one, enemies had major defile on them and three people cast Meteor at the same time. Since we have no way of communicating without voice chat, that meteor strike was completely lucky shot.

We had no fun and I doubt that members of that ball group had any. How can you enjoy a situation in which you are completely invincible and just spam some skills. This isn't some pve raid. This is supposed to be pvp with real people.

Mintaka5

one word: lag

zyk

Maybe making Alik'r dolmens worth 8000 AP would help.

TheBonesXXX

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

So could someone tell me what we are supposed to do with the sets, passives, and skills that are of no longer any use in the siege? Even in nature, everything has an equal and opposite reaction. However, here there is no counter to the oblivion. You say you are playing in Sotha which may explain your take on this. Vivec is clearly a different story.

With one swipe, apparently accidently added in their coding, ZOS has rendered sets, passives, and skills totally useless.

None of those things are useless, people actually have to use tactics.

Flanking, ambush, squad units, terrain..

Running around in a big ball with assigned ability spam doesn't cut it anymore, just gets people blown up.

People are going to have to put multiple breaches in keep walls.

Like we did the last time ZOS buffed siege!

Oh. Wait. ZOS reverted that buff.

So, what actually changed that we should do the same thing twice, expecting different results?

They reverted that buff because the whining is so strong on these forums.

Just like most of the changes made where because full grown diaper wearers don't come here making suggestions to improve the game. They just think their playstyle is underpowered when they die and anyone who beat them is over powered.

Most of the forums is littered with noise instead of players understanding simple engine physics and mechanics. Hell, most of the players here do not even know how to use the terminology correctly.

So when simple observations are articulated they get shot down because most of these posters are trying to get every playstyle but their own nerfed.

It's hard for people with a h-i-a entitlement attitude to respect others.

I welcome the tactical acumen and finesse finallt making its way into PvP alongside mindless brute force.

Brute Force days are numbered, time to get Darwin'd for all who can't handle.

pre-patch:
- most keep fights were spread out. No one touched FD, and if they did it was spread out with ranged siege.
- maps looked static on tri-keeps but overall fights we dynamic.
- ball groups werent trolling as much
- lag was choppy during heavy keep fights but quickly went away.

post patch:
- first 3 keep/outpost fights were boring zerg stacks on front door lol.
- zergs more bloodthirsty on anyone that attacked flanks solo.
- ball groups returned with strong heals
- DC pushed back to glade (like it always was in murkmire). Harder to defend keeps if you were facing against a faction stack
- lag was just as bad at 9am with 2 bar pop versus primetime weekend with pop locked factions during OP siege. Probably don't need to test during primetime to know that there will be such terrible lag you all will be complaining again lol.

conclusions:
- map dynamics need something to checkmate zergs. There is no mechanic that punishes faction stacks.
- OP siege was fun, but notconsistent across game modes. Would like to see something introduced (not artifacts) that punishes zergs without needing a ball group/zerg.
- seriously doubt any other changes to cyro will result in the punishing mechanics we saw over the week of "op"siege.

ESO from it's infancy to now is almost 10 years old. It's the engine and the physics. I truly think CD would fix a lot of the problems. Then people can't stack.

I knew they should have kept siege where it was, the games performance is better. And people actually think instead follow the leader in their "Skilled" Potato Bowls.

Regardless, I will be adamant about the game gaining a highly needed dose of tactical acumen, finesse, and speed (again).

There needs to be other options besides brute force, zergs, and potato bowls.

Minyassa

Bugs should always be fixed, regardless of whether they provide an exploit that players like or not.

Ackwalan

Minyassa wrote: »

Bugs should always be fixed, regardless of whether they provide an exploit that players like or not.

Animation canceling was at first a bug.

zyk

The reason some players consider animation cancelling a bug is because... of this:



However, at the 2014 Guild Summit, ZOS devs elaborated:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is "cheating", but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

Basically, the ability to interrupt animations was intended, but they did not foresee how players would use it -- specifically with block/bash cancelling. Animations were much different in 2014. Animations were less consistent and there was more to be gained. Animation cancelling today is very intuitive and helps improve the flow of rotations. I could be wrong, but I don't think block cancelling is generally that beneficial -- at least not with a weave -- even though I still do it out of habit sometimes.

Later, for the 2.3 PTS (I think), ZOS attempted to address popular concerns about animation cancelling, but the consensus is the changes were clunky, so most did not make it live. It was a rare case of ZOS almost completely retreating from a proposed change.

A lot of it comes down to personal preference. Games have been designed with a variety of animation systems over the years. The system in ESO doesn't allow for read/react in many cases, so the emphasis is instead on anticipation. It's far to late to change something this fundamental to combat IMO. It would result in a practically different game.

With all that said, it's pretty clear from early promo videos of ESO AvA and even how ZOS devs themselves played in IC during an ESO Live that they did not *originally* intend for players to play how we do today -- constantly casting abilities and light attacks on GCDs, so I think that is definitely a contributor to lag. It's pretty inarguable that a player who executes the same abilities at a greater rate than another is taxing the server more.

I think if ESO AvA was its own game, we would not have the sustain options we have and ZOS could adapt gameplay according to the limitations of the server tech. Unfortunately, this is a game designed and optimized for 12 player instances in which players can execute ability rotations indefinitely.