Templars far too strong

Joy_Division

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

Mintaka5

I got news for you, cleanse isn't the only cleaner. Every class has access to Purge, son.

You don't like it, then get your dirty poison snipes off me, kid.

ccmedaddy

lol @ this thread

*elusive mists away from thread laughing*

Ruckly

ccmedaddy wrote: »

lol @ this thread

*elusive mists away from thread laughing*

You should have seen the sidebar

Lord-Otto

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

Joy_Division

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

technohic

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

We're just pointing out that's what people are complaining about, not that it should warrant anything.

We've been here before. Healbots do their thing and templar gets nerfed until exactly what you say happens. .

Lord-Otto

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

Dude, it's no wonder people call Forumplars OP when you react like that. Real talk, and I don't mean it personally, you started on a high note as a class rep, and I still am thankful for the work you're doing. But I have noticed that you've become more anti-player and pro-ZOS recently. And you're less discussing things from a neutral point of view, but rather pushing your own opinion more and more - especially with Templars. Again, I don't wanna blame you or something. But sarcastic stuff like this; I'm noticing. Allow me to ask you, are you even happy anymore to be a rep? You don't appear to me, at least.

Now, for Templars. I can't quite lock on what the problem is. I already told how easy it can be to just heal through everything and burst someone when he's sloppy. PotL and Dawnbreaker can still hit very hard. But maybe that isn't what really irks me.

Have talked to an expert healer yesterday. He quit ESO after Murkmire, btw. Sustain is something he brought up. The Argonian passive is just too damn strong, he said. Good, that is not really a Temp problem, but the combination works very well, and it is a covered weakness. If a healer is in the back of a zerg, he has opportunity to wait for resources. So he should be given pause when out of magicka (lesser, stam), giving the attacker a window to attack without having everything healed. Argonians kinda make it so that the healing never really stops. Whereas I as the damage build can run out of steam very easily, get what I mean?

Another thing, why can healers MITIGATE so much? This is a bit of a flimsy thought, but I'll try. Look, healers (Temps) in ESO are also almost a tank. Not only can they easily heal off received damage, but they typically have high resistances and can just purge Curses and such off for mitigation. As I see it, a healer should be strong against continuous mediocre damage, as he heals that. But should he eat a big boi burst, instant damage, he should feel that and die easily. Rating damage is a tank's thing, after all.
I am not sure how you could translate that into ESO, however. Ripping off the res buff from Rune, making BoL even more expensive and weak, giving HoTs a buff... Quick thoughts I have, but they're not exactly patch material. I really don't know where to start here. But I hope I could somewhat explain what I mean. Basically, less mitigation, more healing over time.

And damage builds just need a buff. This is coming from a sorc main, who runs out of resources easily if he goes for damage, so maybe that's different for other classes. But like I said before, I'm not happy with the current state of damage builds in PvP. You're exposing yourself too much, a single laggy CC can kill you. And you don't get enough damage in return. Whenever I'm theorycrafting and writing down numbers, I always come to the conclusion that building for defense and sustain is so much easier and efficient these days. Whereas I can barely increase my (sorc) damage by 5% without risking insufficient magicka or stamina sustain, give up on a 15% Maim debuff or 30% Protection skeleton and suchlike. Shields? While also knowing that even if I go all out with a 20k tooltip Frag, what's the point? It gets dodged and blocked, anyway. Damage in the current game (save for Dawnbreaker and bleeds) just sucks. No wonder you have tank zergs everywhere.

Anywhooo, was a bit rambling. Again, I don't have the magical solution. I'm just noticing some things are a bit off.

Roaldy

DON'T WROBEL ME BRO!!

CompM4s

Every single class has its strengths, dont fall into the mindset everytime someone kills you using a different class that its “op”. Some people have several years playing thier preferred class and are just really good with it. Pick the class you enjoy and get experience then eventually some people will think you are “op”.

CompM4s

Here’s some steps to kill a magplar. Heavy use of defiles drains their resources since bol is very expensive. Add in hard cc’s to drain their stam and they wont be able last much longer. There main save is mist form, which can cause some problems but if they are spamming mist then most likely they are struggling on all their resources and will die if you can keep the pressure up.

Always strafe away from their sweeps. Sweeps are strong but have a hard time landing. Its mistly about positioning when fighting a magplar. (Dont facetank) sweeps heal them.

Baconlad

Can concur. Biggest issue for me as magplar is heavy pressure and defile. Magplar are easy to chunk, and hard to put out reliable damage with.

You chunk our health, we put it back with HTD. You defile us and chunk while we're casting HTD and keep us defiled after we purge? Its gonna be rough. I'll know I'm in danger of running resources if I stay defensive, I turn pop eclipse and try to jab you, if i can't land jabs? I'm not going to be able to keep up pressure and be forced to go BACK on defense to deal with you chunking my health...rinse repeat till I'm dead. Big big burst lays us flat when we cat get rid of defile...wait till I'm offensive to put ur best pressure

Toc de Malsvi

Biting Jabs is super strong... When it works that is... I was playing a stam templar in VMA recently and was amazed how I could go from blowing monsters up to doing no dps just because Jabs is buggy as all get out.

Minno

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

Dude, it's no wonder people call Forumplars OP when you react like that. Real talk, and I don't mean it personally, you started on a high note as a class rep, and I still am thankful for the work you're doing. But I have noticed that you've become more anti-player and pro-ZOS recently. And you're less discussing things from a neutral point of view, but rather pushing your own opinion more and more - especially with Templars. Again, I don't wanna blame you or something. But sarcastic stuff like this; I'm noticing. Allow me to ask you, are you even happy anymore to be a rep? You don't appear to me, at least.

Now, for Templars. I can't quite lock on what the problem is. I already told how easy it can be to just heal through everything and burst someone when he's sloppy. PotL and Dawnbreaker can still hit very hard. But maybe that isn't what really irks me.

Have talked to an expert healer yesterday. He quit ESO after Murkmire, btw. Sustain is something he brought up. The Argonian passive is just too damn strong, he said. Good, that is not really a Temp problem, but the combination works very well, and it is a covered weakness. If a healer is in the back of a zerg, he has opportunity to wait for resources. So he should be given pause when out of magicka (lesser, stam), giving the attacker a window to attack without having everything healed. Argonians kinda make it so that the healing never really stops. Whereas I as the damage build can run out of steam very easily, get what I mean?

Another thing, why can healers MITIGATE so much? This is a bit of a flimsy thought, but I'll try. Look, healers (Temps) in ESO are also almost a tank. Not only can they easily heal off received damage, but they typically have high resistances and can just purge Curses and such off for mitigation. As I see it, a healer should be strong against continuous mediocre damage, as he heals that. But should he eat a big boi burst, instant damage, he should feel that and die easily. Rating damage is a tank's thing, after all.
I am not sure how you could translate that into ESO, however. Ripping off the res buff from Rune, making BoL even more expensive and weak, giving HoTs a buff... Quick thoughts I have, but they're not exactly patch material. I really don't know where to start here. But I hope I could somewhat explain what I mean. Basically, less mitigation, more healing over time.

And damage builds just need a buff. This is coming from a sorc main, who runs out of resources easily if he goes for damage, so maybe that's different for other classes. But like I said before, I'm not happy with the current state of damage builds in PvP. You're exposing yourself too much, a single laggy CC can kill you. And you don't get enough damage in return. Whenever I'm theorycrafting and writing down numbers, I always come to the conclusion that building for defense and sustain is so much easier and efficient these days. Whereas I can barely increase my (sorc) damage by 5% without risking insufficient magicka or stamina sustain, give up on a 15% Maim debuff or 30% Protection skeleton and suchlike. Shields? While also knowing that even if I go all out with a 20k tooltip Frag, what's the point? It gets dodged and blocked, anyway. Damage in the current game (save for Dawnbreaker and bleeds) just sucks. No wonder you have tank zergs everywhere.

Anywhooo, was a bit rambling. Again, I don't have the magical solution. I'm just noticing some things are a bit off.

But that's not the templar's problem. That's a "performance" problem with the way the game calculates dmg/healing/defense; it really punishes you for not selecting the right combination of sets in the right encounter.
People would play less tanks if they could move and react. But since they can't, they bulk up.

Ruckly

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

Dude, it's no wonder people call Forumplars OP when you react like that. Real talk, and I don't mean it personally, you started on a high note as a class rep, and I still am thankful for the work you're doing. But I have noticed that you've become more anti-player and pro-ZOS recently. And you're less discussing things from a neutral point of view, but rather pushing your own opinion more and more - especially with Templars. Again, I don't wanna blame you or something. But sarcastic stuff like this; I'm noticing. Allow me to ask you, are you even happy anymore to be a rep? You don't appear to me, at least.

Now, for Templars. I can't quite lock on what the problem is. I already told how easy it can be to just heal through everything and burst someone when he's sloppy. PotL and Dawnbreaker can still hit very hard. But maybe that isn't what really irks me.

Have talked to an expert healer yesterday. He quit ESO after Murkmire, btw. Sustain is something he brought up. The Argonian passive is just too damn strong, he said. Good, that is not really a Temp problem, but the combination works very well, and it is a covered weakness. If a healer is in the back of a zerg, he has opportunity to wait for resources. So he should be given pause when out of magicka (lesser, stam), giving the attacker a window to attack without having everything healed. Argonians kinda make it so that the healing never really stops. Whereas I as the damage build can run out of steam very easily, get what I mean?

Another thing, why can healers MITIGATE so much? This is a bit of a flimsy thought, but I'll try. Look, healers (Temps) in ESO are also almost a tank. Not only can they easily heal off received damage, but they typically have high resistances and can just purge Curses and such off for mitigation. As I see it, a healer should be strong against continuous mediocre damage, as he heals that. But should he eat a big boi burst, instant damage, he should feel that and die easily. Rating damage is a tank's thing, after all.
I am not sure how you could translate that into ESO, however. Ripping off the res buff from Rune, making BoL even more expensive and weak, giving HoTs a buff... Quick thoughts I have, but they're not exactly patch material. I really don't know where to start here. But I hope I could somewhat explain what I mean. Basically, less mitigation, more healing over time.

And damage builds just need a buff. This is coming from a sorc main, who runs out of resources easily if he goes for damage, so maybe that's different for other classes. But like I said before, I'm not happy with the current state of damage builds in PvP. You're exposing yourself too much, a single laggy CC can kill you. And you don't get enough damage in return. Whenever I'm theorycrafting and writing down numbers, I always come to the conclusion that building for defense and sustain is so much easier and efficient these days. Whereas I can barely increase my (sorc) damage by 5% without risking insufficient magicka or stamina sustain, give up on a 15% Maim debuff or 30% Protection skeleton and suchlike. Shields? While also knowing that even if I go all out with a 20k tooltip Frag, what's the point? It gets dodged and blocked, anyway. Damage in the current game (save for Dawnbreaker and bleeds) just sucks. No wonder you have tank zergs everywhere.

Anywhooo, was a bit rambling. Again, I don't have the magical solution. I'm just noticing some things are a bit off.

I don't get it. Templars aren't immune to cc. You can stun a templar and drop a bunch of damage on them. They have nothing that makes them any better at taking that damage than any other class since they are GCD locked. They might have a Hot from...healing staff because templar doesn't have a HoT skill besides the ground based one. You can burst a templar like any other class. They can start casting their pocket heal to try and recover and you can keep dumping damage into them while they try until their cc immunity is up. They can throw a spear at you then start healing from the burst but then you're on cc immunity. If the templar has high resistances they have low sustain. If you have spell penetration you punch through their resistances. If you have +15% weapon damage from medium you out damage/sustain the templar. If you are in cyrodill there is a good chance there are 23 other people with you and your closest target is likely going to be a DK super tank and not a templar.

You mention sorcerer specifically and are comparing a slow low sustain templar to a sorcerer and you expect to be able to KO a cleric/paladin. The problem with sorcerer is their flying pet. It is a liability because it is a free heavy attack mana battery that goes wherever and dies. As such it isn't a reliable self heal. If it was alternating shields/heals would probably work well on a sorc. It does on a templar. But the sorc also has better mobility without spending 5.5k magicka and having no magicka recovery for the duration of the skill(mist form). And the sorc has a far better execute. The idea of expecting to be able to solo KO someone in cyrodill, a battlefield built for 2 armies fighting one another, by yourself is silly. If anyone could do that battles wouldn't last very long. People would be KOed left and right and the battle would be over very quick. All that mounting to be KOed in the blink of an eye by a sorc. This in the alliance war forum.

Joy_Division

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

Dude, it's no wonder people call Forumplars OP when you react like that. Real talk, and I don't mean it personally, you started on a high note as a class rep, and I still am thankful for the work you're doing. But I have noticed that you've become more anti-player and pro-ZOS recently. And you're less discussing things from a neutral point of view, but rather pushing your own opinion more and more - especially with Templars. Again, I don't wanna blame you or something. But sarcastic stuff like this; I'm noticing. Allow me to ask you, are you even happy anymore to be a rep? You don't appear to me, at least.

Now, for Templars. I can't quite lock on what the problem is. I already told how easy it can be to just heal through everything and burst someone when he's sloppy. PotL and Dawnbreaker can still hit very hard. But maybe that isn't what really irks me.

Have talked to an expert healer yesterday. He quit ESO after Murkmire, btw. Sustain is something he brought up. The Argonian passive is just too damn strong, he said. Good, that is not really a Temp problem, but the combination works very well, and it is a covered weakness. If a healer is in the back of a zerg, he has opportunity to wait for resources. So he should be given pause when out of magicka (lesser, stam), giving the attacker a window to attack without having everything healed. Argonians kinda make it so that the healing never really stops. Whereas I as the damage build can run out of steam very easily, get what I mean?

Another thing, why can healers MITIGATE so much? This is a bit of a flimsy thought, but I'll try. Look, healers (Temps) in ESO are also almost a tank. Not only can they easily heal off received damage, but they typically have high resistances and can just purge Curses and such off for mitigation. As I see it, a healer should be strong against continuous mediocre damage, as he heals that. But should he eat a big boi burst, instant damage, he should feel that and die easily. Rating damage is a tank's thing, after all.
I am not sure how you could translate that into ESO, however. Ripping off the res buff from Rune, making BoL even more expensive and weak, giving HoTs a buff... Quick thoughts I have, but they're not exactly patch material. I really don't know where to start here. But I hope I could somewhat explain what I mean. Basically, less mitigation, more healing over time.

And damage builds just need a buff. This is coming from a sorc main, who runs out of resources easily if he goes for damage, so maybe that's different for other classes. But like I said before, I'm not happy with the current state of damage builds in PvP. You're exposing yourself too much, a single laggy CC can kill you. And you don't get enough damage in return. Whenever I'm theorycrafting and writing down numbers, I always come to the conclusion that building for defense and sustain is so much easier and efficient these days. Whereas I can barely increase my (sorc) damage by 5% without risking insufficient magicka or stamina sustain, give up on a 15% Maim debuff or 30% Protection skeleton and suchlike. Shields? While also knowing that even if I go all out with a 20k tooltip Frag, what's the point? It gets dodged and blocked, anyway. Damage in the current game (save for Dawnbreaker and bleeds) just sucks. No wonder you have tank zergs everywhere.

Anywhooo, was a bit rambling. Again, I don't have the magical solution. I'm just noticing some things are a bit off.

You're calling me anti-player and pro-Zos when I just unequivocally called them out for 5 years of terrible mismanagement of speed and snares ? What exactly do you want me to do? Slice Wrobel's tires until he completely undoes all the sorcerer changes for the past year so you can go back to your build from a year ago?

My tone and discussion on templars has been the same for the years. I have always been critical to dubious changes that ZOS has made, I have always argued against posts made by players who only highlight what they perceive as OP aspects about templars without acknowledging the class's weakness.

Tell me again how "easy" is is for templars to heal through everything, but somehow it's harder for a sorcerer to shield through everything, a NB to cloak or teleport away from everything, a DK to block through everything, or a Warden to absorb, heal, and tank through everything? Yes, templars heal through stuff. That's the point of being a templar because they dont have cloak and they don't have mobility. People who hate "immortal" templars just can;t stand the aesthetic of a class holding their ground. Yet, they are perfectly cool with other immortal builds that utilize dodging, or mobility for damage avoidance, or less obvious recovery means that Breath of Life. Because, why? It's "more skillful"? If a templar can;t heal through "everything," then there is no point in playing the class. You don;t see me whining in other class threads about their defensive strong points, so I'm not being hypocritical. It's the non templars that come and whine on these forums about how "immortal" templars are but are the first one to raise hell when their main class's abilities get nerfed. That's what bothers me, not being a class rep.

No, I don;t see what you mean about an over-performing race have anything to do with why templars should get nerfed or are problematic.

Healers mitigate just as much as DDs; it's not like the are embedded mechanics in ESO that equate to healers receiving less damage from attackers (except for the never used Blessing of Restoration from the Resto staff). And to equate healer to templars is absolute mischaracterization. Wardens are at least just as good PvP healers and many see them as superior. One of our core Healers uses a NB. I use a sorcerer. If a healer has high resistance, then, just like DDs, they are either sacrificing resource management or the ability to hit high numbers. They don;t play by different rules. If people are having trouble killing healers, that';s they own fault for copying Alcast's build or having the extent of their theory-crafting looking at damage numbers on a target dummy parse. Defile exists in the game for a reason and many - most I'd estimate - healers think that running around with 10K stamina and blocking with a restoration staff is more than adequate.

Every class in the game - magicka and stamina - that is played by someone with legit open world experience and knows what they are doing is going to be incredibly robust and put out lethal damage. This is what prompts all the inexperienced PuGs to claim that so and so cheats, uses marcos, etc., they have no understanding of ESO's mechanics and what the classes are capable of. This is something that is not exclusive to templars: every class has 1vX and other assorted montages that clearly demonstrate this. I'd love to hear a case that somehow a stamina warden is inferior to a templar when it comes to building for tankiness and the amount of damage they can output.

Ok damage needs a buff. Preaching to the choir here. The ideal reform to this situation is to communicate to ZOS the necessity for this to happen. Not pretend one class somehow uniquely benefits fro the tank meta and lobby for that one class to get nerfed.

Ruckly

One argument unspoken is the proactive nature of damage skills vs the reactive nature of heals. Shields are proactive and reactive. Three people can proactively fire a damage spike into a templar. The templar can only react with heals. They can't over heal only shields can do that. Thus to be this immortal templar they need a high health pool(or use light armor(not immortal) and proactive shields). If they have a high health pool they have to give something up. Thus a high health pool high resistance low sustain templar is going to have a weakness. This compared to an 80k health nightblade that can chain cast single target heals until their earthgore procs and cleanses all the stacked debuffs.

Lord-Otto

Minno wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

The problem with all these nerf threads is that people rarely bring any specifics to the table, nor do they provide any context whatsoever. Which means they’re rant threads that should have no bearing on anything. If you legitimately think something is OP, bring real evidence to the table so we can really discuss it not have a bunch of subjective conjecture.

What's sad is that these people can't even be bothered to provide us with misleading death-recaps.

Are we sure they are talking about dieing to them? Im getting the impression they are referring to the guys who turtle up and spam heals including remembrance while their buddy's beat on them. Seen a few like that but thats why I like to keep defile up.

Oh, a too strong class that's incapable of killing other people. Makes total sense.

To be fair, being (hyperbolically) immortal and standing on a flag is a problem for you. As is being immortal and healing your group.

So the fair thing would be that templars:

1. Can;t kill anyone
2. Can''t escape because of no mobility
3. Easily die when attacked.

Dude, it's no wonder people call Forumplars OP when you react like that. Real talk, and I don't mean it personally, you started on a high note as a class rep, and I still am thankful for the work you're doing. But I have noticed that you've become more anti-player and pro-ZOS recently. And you're less discussing things from a neutral point of view, but rather pushing your own opinion more and more - especially with Templars. Again, I don't wanna blame you or something. But sarcastic stuff like this; I'm noticing. Allow me to ask you, are you even happy anymore to be a rep? You don't appear to me, at least.

Now, for Templars. I can't quite lock on what the problem is. I already told how easy it can be to just heal through everything and burst someone when he's sloppy. PotL and Dawnbreaker can still hit very hard. But maybe that isn't what really irks me.

Have talked to an expert healer yesterday. He quit ESO after Murkmire, btw. Sustain is something he brought up. The Argonian passive is just too damn strong, he said. Good, that is not really a Temp problem, but the combination works very well, and it is a covered weakness. If a healer is in the back of a zerg, he has opportunity to wait for resources. So he should be given pause when out of magicka (lesser, stam), giving the attacker a window to attack without having everything healed. Argonians kinda make it so that the healing never really stops. Whereas I as the damage build can run out of steam very easily, get what I mean?

Another thing, why can healers MITIGATE so much? This is a bit of a flimsy thought, but I'll try. Look, healers (Temps) in ESO are also almost a tank. Not only can they easily heal off received damage, but they typically have high resistances and can just purge Curses and such off for mitigation. As I see it, a healer should be strong against continuous mediocre damage, as he heals that. But should he eat a big boi burst, instant damage, he should feel that and die easily. Rating damage is a tank's thing, after all.
I am not sure how you could translate that into ESO, however. Ripping off the res buff from Rune, making BoL even more expensive and weak, giving HoTs a buff... Quick thoughts I have, but they're not exactly patch material. I really don't know where to start here. But I hope I could somewhat explain what I mean. Basically, less mitigation, more healing over time.

And damage builds just need a buff. This is coming from a sorc main, who runs out of resources easily if he goes for damage, so maybe that's different for other classes. But like I said before, I'm not happy with the current state of damage builds in PvP. You're exposing yourself too much, a single laggy CC can kill you. And you don't get enough damage in return. Whenever I'm theorycrafting and writing down numbers, I always come to the conclusion that building for defense and sustain is so much easier and efficient these days. Whereas I can barely increase my (sorc) damage by 5% without risking insufficient magicka or stamina sustain, give up on a 15% Maim debuff or 30% Protection skeleton and suchlike. Shields? While also knowing that even if I go all out with a 20k tooltip Frag, what's the point? It gets dodged and blocked, anyway. Damage in the current game (save for Dawnbreaker and bleeds) just sucks. No wonder you have tank zergs everywhere.

Anywhooo, was a bit rambling. Again, I don't have the magical solution. I'm just noticing some things are a bit off.

But that's not the templar's problem. That's a "performance" problem with the way the game calculates dmg/healing/defense; it really punishes you for not selecting the right combination of sets in the right encounter.
People would play less tanks if they could move and react. But since they can't, they bulk up.

Yes.

Lord-Otto

Sorc Fury sucks big time these days. And shields that can't crit are not on par with a critheal. Was also just giving my impression regarding Joy's interactions, thought I noticed a shift.

Anyway, I've exhausted my will and patience for discussion last year, guys. I'm out next month, eventually. Make of my observations and thoughts what you will, I don't care about winning any points here. It's just a form of brainstorming, take it or by all means, leave it.

CyrusArya

After playing my Sorc for the last few weeks, it’s abudantly clear to me how not op Templars are. Have yet to run into a single one I couldn’t kill, stamina or magicka. My Sorc is stronger than my Magplar on all counts except for AoE damage, and even still the negate it brings is more valuable than a short range conal AoE for group play. Funny how some players claim the class is dead and oh so weak, then have the audacity to suggest nerfs to another class- when they clearly don’t even understand their own. If Sorc is dead rn, then damage Magplar is even more dead. Which is why this thread proves, once again, that the forums are pretty useless for meaningful discussions on balance.

I love my Magplar but I can’t see myself reaching for it over my Sorcerer. As I have said before and will reiterate, the class is very well balanced- in no need of buffs or nerfs. The one change I’d like to see on Templar is for unused skilled to be revamped but that’s it.

Ruckly

I might be wrong and it may not apply to all classes but Mighty Chudan with the lady mundus for light armor or Mighty Chudan with the warrior mundus for medium armor with 2 offensive 5 piece sets seems to work very well in cyrodill. This because Annulment in light armor or dodge roll in medium. And they are more fun than heavy armor. And they should punch through a magplar or wear it out. The idea being the monster set saves gcd cast, magicka/stamina for that cast, and a slot you can fill with some skill that has a passive or utility or even prox det if you want to be fancy.

The idea may be abstract as regards the thread title but the above set-ups should be as universal as the templar set-ups that people claim everyone runs on xbox.

Minno

Ruckly wrote: »

I might be wrong and it may not apply to all classes but Mighty Chudan with the lady mundus for light armor or Mighty Chudan with the warrior mundus for medium armor with 2 offensive 5 piece sets seems to work very well in cyrodill. This because Annulment in light armor or dodge roll in medium. And they are more fun than heavy armor. And they should punch through a magplar or wear it out. The idea being the monster set saves gcd cast, magicka/stamina for that cast, and a slot you can fill with some skill that has a passive or utility or even prox det if you want to be fancy.

The idea may be abstract as regards the thread title but the above set-ups should be as universal as the templar set-ups that people claim everyone runs on xbox.

Chudan is great for classes that only geta basic armor buff. There are 240 "reasons" Templars don't run it lol.

Templars also benefit from over 2 years of build crafting. Something other classes are just starting to deal with. Some of the best Templar mains also started the most widely used threads on the forums (defensive set comparison, magpar gear threads, etc.).

Also trans is a beautiful set. Best uptime on Templar and crit resist tackles a wide spectrum of cheese out there. It also gives Regen, and without a proactive defense allows you the push you need to tryout sets other classes deem suicidal to run. Would i use trans if I had wardens shield or nightblades evaison+cloak? Probably not, as ability to negate DMG entirely> ability to reduce crits.

I've been in fights where I dominate 2-4 players, and others where even 1 requires me to play defensively. And some of those 1v1 fights are stalemates because I'm running the wrong set to deal extra DMG; but ifi ran that extra DMG set my weakness to CC's+defile would be highlighted in other encounters or other builds.

Take a magplar against a heavy armor DW/2H Stam build (NB, DK, Warden), and if you can beat them all easily, then I'll seriously review threads that suggest Templars are OP. Otherwise there are better things to d concentrate on, like cyro having less lag or better incentives to get people to come intocyro, or that CP has stolen allot of unique class identity.

Ruckly

The above stated sets are universal in the sense they can replace this templar xbox plague people talk about. A person can take their pve build and put impen on armor and the Chudan hat and run it pretty much the same way in cyrodill. Shields and dodge rolls to take/avoid damage.

Shields are even good on a templar because templars can't overheal. If a templar has 25k hp and they take 5k damage and they crit an 11k heal most of that counts for nothing. If they cast a shield while at 25k-5k hp and take another hit then cast a heal they are back to full health. i.e. the shields gives them say 20k+7K effective health = 27k vs 25k for using a pocket heal. And a templar can prebuff with a shield giving them 32k effective health. 32k effective health with a shield vs 30k health in heavy armor with all the downsides of heavy armor. And 20k base resistances in light isn't that bad for all the magicka regen you get and reduced sprint cost and penetration.

Something as simple as Bright-Throat's Boast/Spinner's Garment's/Mighty Chudan is probably enough to outperform a heavy armor magplar.

And Robes of Transmutation is tough to get. It also looks OP I dunno why it's in the game.

A good skill to put in the slot you save from not having to use an armor skill is Scorching Flare.

Minno

Ruckly wrote: »

The above stated sets are universal in the sense they can replace this templar xbox plague people talk about. A person can take their pve build and put impen on armor and the Chudan hat and run it pretty much the same way in cyrodill. Shields and dodge rolls to take/avoid damage.

Shields are even good on a templar because templars can't overheal. If a templar has 25k hp and they take 5k damage and they crit an 11k heal most of that counts for nothing. If they cast a shield while at 25k-5k hp and take another hit then cast a heal they are back to full health. i.e. the shields gives them say 20k+7K effective health = 27k vs 25k for using a pocket heal. And a templar can prebuff with a shield giving them 32k effective health. 32k effective health with a shield vs 30k health in heavy armor with all the downsides of heavy armor. And 20k base resistances in light isn't that bad for all the magicka regen you get and reduced sprint cost and penetration.

Something as simple as Bright-Throat's Boast/Spinner's Garment's/Mighty Chudan is probably enough to outperform a heavy armor magplar.

And Robes of Transmutation is tough to get. It also looks OP I dunno why it's in the game.

A good skill to put in the slot you save from not having to use an armor skill is Scorching Flare.

Requires you to heal and crit resist doesn't mitigate base DMG. And even with full impen+trans, you are still taking a 1.3 modifier on damage.

Crit resists are wonderful, but not immune to damage. It just means you go from dying in 2 hits to 10.

NBrookus

Ruckly wrote: »

And Robes of Transmutation is tough to get. It also looks OP I dunno why it's in the game.

You can buy it from an NPC now. Plus gold jewelry at the golden this week and next.

CovertDistress4

Templars are not the problem. Any class that uses spin to win, dawn breaker and those damn bugs... wardens, they are the gods of pvp... they are the apprentice pvp characters, hit three buttons, never die, kill counts and rank will climb... because they are so op, most are rolling them and now pvp is over run with them... easiest class to play. I jumped on the band wagon, mines at level 30...after 5 hours of pve farming... boring to farm, even more boring to hit one button over and over and over... lame. I just can't bring myself to finishing it. I will delete when necro comes.

ChunkyCat

Templar’s are not strong. Healing is strong.

They’ve nerfed defiles into the ground and now tanky healers are outta control.

gg ZoS.

Minno

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Templar’s are not strong. Healing is strong.

They’ve nerfed defiles into the ground and now tanky healers are outta control.

gg ZoS.

Healing is fine, for at least Templar. Stamplar has a cast for requesting extra healing since they were designed around having access to major mending and lost their 16% healing this patch.

And then we have crits on heal. Everyone gets a 1.5 modifier on their heals. Maybe defile should cut your heal crits down but then again I remember when defile were so passive, you just had to be around someone to give 6 targets defile lol.

I still think healing is fine. They might drop 1.5 modifiers to 1.4 and keep them locked. Which means CP elfborn/percise is going to needa Nerf like class passives got, and then defile reviewed to make sure it's not overpowered with this change.

Ruckly

Heals don't have to punch through armor. Damage typically does. However you can't over damage without killing someone. You can over heal. Conversely penetration has no effect on heals. There isn't a set that gives spell damage to templar heals specifically but there is one for healing staff(Innate Axiom sort of does but it is quite general). Thus stacking for a big heal doesn't work like stacking for a big nuke. This is especially true in cyrodill since most people run impen so if you have a high crit rate you don't get a good return on offense.

Templar heals have been nerfed. The AoE heal is prohibitively expensive.

{This line of reasoning is sounding mundane }

Ruckly

1. As far as tanky healer groups go defile won't do much for you anyways since it will be cleansed.

2. Unless you make the group move with their expedition buff then knock some one out of the group and immobilize while the group is still moving then focus fire and kill them.

3. And once their numbers are down a few and some redundancy is lost you bomb/siege them.